open 826; trist fall (over)

[Faker]

Hello, everyone. It's been a long day. I'm extremely tired, and don't think my game commentary will be up to par. I will do my best, though, and beg forgiveness in the morning if I think I've gone down the wrong path.

I've had many, many thoughts on how to play this game: I've considered declaring that I will not trust or accept a trust at all, I've considered declaring the same but until 4 way. I haven't really arrived at a final answer — it's going to hinge largely on the other players — but the one guarantee is that I will not be exiting early. I will not accept any proposals prior to Day 3, and will adamantly resist any attempts to compel me to accept.

This is partially out of pride, but partially out because I cannot describe how ecstatic I am to begin. I have not yet had a completed game onsite, but after so long away the idea of forum mafia has left me feeling in a way that can only be described as

à bout de souffle

[Faker]

I concur with the criticisms of the following, especially as described by Infinity.

We start at 80% town, unless we mistrust d1 this is only going to get worse and less town will have to be tricked by scum for a wrong discussion.

We don't need to take the whole do, just reach a decision about the rest of the game.

However, my instinct is that the naivete of this plan is likely to be town, rather than an attempt to poison the well. This is as doomed to fail from the scum perspective as the town one.

[Faker]

early townpings on intutile

i retract this

We start at 80% town, unless we mistrust d1 this is only going to get worse and less town will have to be tricked by scum for a wrong discussion.

We don't need to take the whole do, just reach a decision about the rest of the game.

mm, this just feels like THE PLAN AS MAFIA to me

but that may just be because last iteration i had a very similar thought process during pregame

this post is *really* feeling weird to me and somewhat scummy
i don't know if meg's approach to the game is *right*, but i do like how they're thinking about the setup
and i dislike that inutile is just vaguely shading this whole thought process

Can you describe what gave you these townpings to begin with, and why inutile's primary identity changed it? I don't know if you meant it this way, but "retraction" is a word that almost implies a flaw with the initial process, or something critical overlooked, rather than just new information.

I disagree vehemently with scumreading the shade from inutile. You (Skitter) and I seem to concur that Meg's thinking about the setup is town. I don't think Meg's presentation of the plan is either a large threat to scum or that scum benefit from immediately discrediting the player.

[Faker]

Reading along through the post numbers in the 60s I am really, really not thrilled with the explanation of this thinking from skitter.

inutile recognizing that other players do not think like it does is not a big stretch of the imagination. My initial reaction to its disclosure it thought of doing similar as mafia was "Wild, that's such a weird and doomed approach"

I should probably be more limited in my defense of another player, but this is a horrible read imo

[Faker]

in other news i do like thor's entrance

I absolutely hated it because it's blandly touching a tonal base and peacing. Town players do this all the time but unless Thor doesn't know how to post whatsoever as scum this doesn't seem indicative of a damn thing.

I would be voting both of you if this were a traditional game.

[Faker]

I caught up and probably should have waited to read in full; half of that was either adequately questioned by other players or followed up on whether satisfactorily or not. I think it's obvious that I both disagree with everything skitter has typed this game, and would probably put her as a scumlean though playstyle differences are likely.

I'd call Meg a decent townread and inutile a townlean. A sizable part of me wants to add Infinity to the townreads, but concurring with my analysis isn't the silver bullet that should put her there.

[Faker]

Let me be a bit more direct with skitter.

It appears you have some experience with shiki/inutile and are drawing at least part of your read from meta.

What suggests to you that: A) inutile actively hedges that shade as scum rather than just goes for it if they want to B) inutile chooses to go after Meg in that instance to begin with?

[Faker]

@faker: without knowing who inutile was, i liked how she was questioning meg's plan and trying to understand it
upon learning who she was, most of the townpings from that were negated because i think she would have done that as either alignment

i also had not yet read 21 at the time of my posting 22, so when infinity said intuile == shiki, i went back and read inutile's posts with that and mind and also saw 21, and realized i didn't like it, to the point where i wanted to take back the initial townpings i had given

I think post 21 is more in line with trying to figure out Meg's plan, and reflecting on the implications, than you're giving it credit for.

i saw the post. i read it as inutile disliking meg's plan since that is how she approached the game in *her* scumgame, and calling meg scummy for it. but then later hedging around actually calling meg scummy, so it looked like she just wnated to make meg look bad without fully commiting to it

My counterpoint was that the scum who hedge are typically nervous and too afraid to just go for it. I don't think inutile fits that bill.

[Faker]

I don't really think I have too much to add right now. Nothing in the last page or two does anything for me, and while I agree with most of what I wrote yesterday but think I was a bit overaggressive. I'm happy to leave the ball in others' hands at the moment.

[Faker]

Skimming inutile's ISO in their last game, it definitely hedges them as scum. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'll think more about it.

[Faker]

inutile, after playing through this setup once as scum, what are your impressions of the setup: What were your "final" thoughts on the setup as mafia, and what lessons from that game have you carried forward with you as town this game?

[Faker]

12 days is a brutal long time to wait. Waiting makes the game not fun.

I plan to fire off a trust or two within a day or so.

After reading through a few of your games, I'm increasingly curious about the reason for this. You don't hesitate to comment on mechanics as scum.

[Faker]

Skimming inutile's ISO in their last game, it definitely hedges them as scum. Perhaps I'm wrong. I'll think more about it.

? am i misunderstanding this? or are you saying that you skimmed my iso from the last trust fall and now think it is more likely i am mafia than before? and if i am not misunderstanding, could you explain why you think this?

My point to Skitter was that it was a weird place to hedge a scumread. I think going after Meg would be an awful play to begin with, and even if you do it anyway hedging it is pointless. This was primarily a counter to skitter, but I had you as a townlean for the initial repartee.

In the last Trust Fall, you repeatedly hedged possible scum motivations as town ones. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit D. You begin to press more specific reads later. I've done some analysis of context but not enough to be confident that I'm not falling prey to confirmation bias.

"More likely to be mafia" is on the face of it literally true, but the more complete picture is a more neutral "My reason for townleaning you is likely wrong in process, even if not in result"

[Faker]

I guess I never learned my ABCs. As much as I wish I could blame the American education system, I am the kind of stupid which has proven unassailable to any amount of love, care, and attention.

[Faker]

Biggest tips for town imo:

1) Never accept an offer impulsively, you can always shop for better after you are offered a trust fall.

2) Get everyone's opinion before you accept an offer, more information is always helpful regardless of whether the offer is good / not good.

3) Don't offer someone without good reasons, probably better to get people's opinions on whether your TR on someone is good prior to offering them.

Why was your solve Infinity/The Worst? You seemed to think it implausible that Enchant could have 0 thoughts; am curious what points you in that direction.

[Faker]

why do you think scumreading megazumarill would be awful play?

There's no threat, either from the plan itself or from someone more dedicated to its followthrough than sorting the other players. It's unpredictable what will happen when they swing to the latter, and you don't want to be on the wrong side of it if they wind up looking town. This is general, but individually the specific point you presented was especially unlikely to ever go far. This is all even before other players (myself, Skitter) find Meg's approach town to begin with.

I did not have these concrete points in mind when I made the statement. Going after Meg was very intuitively wrong to me.

[Faker]

And on myself, or perhaps Skitter/inutile?

[Faker]

And on myself, or perhaps Skitter/inutile?

is this a question for me?

what are you asking?

It was a question for you, asking open-endedly for your thoughts on those players as some of the more content-dense ones.

[Faker]

I'm content to leave Enchant to his own devices. His post itself already shows he is not the type to be easily dissuaded with appeals to optimal play, rational or otherwise. If he thinks it's a fun reaction test, or if he is so determined to do it, I am fine to leave him to it. The difference between him and I may not be so large.

[Faker]

I hope there's enough content on the table soon enough that you won't have to rely on karma, but only your own wit and guile.

[Faker]

I'm just going to take that as a scumclaim.

I'm fine ending the game by chain trusting every player minus Koba.

[Faker]

If you want to excuse yourself with a claim that you're trolling the game as town, be my guest.

[Faker]

I am 100% serious that I am fine chaintrusting minus Koba and letting us all take the loss if they are town.

[Faker]

you can call it anti town but I think it makes the game intersting to do it

Sounds like "trolling" to me and I am more than happy to have tris and the site moderation sort it out postgame.

[Faker]

Very.

[Faker]

I volunteer to be the second player left untrusted, by the way.

[Faker]

It always will be.

[Faker]

I am completely serious. Trust everyone except myself and Koba and just end the game.

[Faker]

Not going to dialogue with you further.

[Faker]

I can't imagine why. The game is more interesting now.

[Faker]

I'd be happy to see that pairing go off and to get to the next day.

[Faker]

Again my vote is to just isolate myself and Koba and run it back if we want a real game.

[Faker]

If people aren't going to take my suggestion to just isolate and end, I'm going to point out that Koba immediately realized how awful of an idea it was to clear me given my isolate and end stance (which is autoloss for scum Koba) and backed out of it.

[Faker]

What is isolate and end?

Springboarding off of your idea that if all of town identifies one mafia, they win, my suggestion is that we pair off everyone except Koba and treat the start as a scumclaim.

There will be one town leftover unpaired in this, and while not mechanically optimal I volunteered to be the second.

[Faker]

Now it's a "strategy" as opposed to "making the game interesting". How wonderful.

[Faker]

Mechanically it's best to not isolate a townsperson just incase Koba is legitimately trolling.

I think a big part of making this a reality, though, is demonstrating goodwill. Locking me out puts my intent beyond question except for me to WIFOM in 4/6 way, and I again think the simple way out of the WIFOM is just to put my claim that I am fine locking out myself/Koba to the test.

[Faker]

Get them both out, cheers.

[Faker]

The idea behind never trusting me in light of the flip is I can make the show then tell my partner to accept.

I was only locktown mechanically so long as Koba didn't get trusted.

[Faker]

hey but im conftown so fuck you all for saying I was scummy
eat massive crowwww

No, you confirmed you threw the game if you're town, now get out.

[Faker]

It's okay, it's more interesting this way.

Sorry, I mean, it was strategic and just didn't pan out. Not trolling. What do you mean the other players didn't enjoy or respect it?

[Faker]

Maybe we'll luck out and they're both throwing.

[Faker]

Whoever is scum deserves 0 flak but whoever is town deserves all of it.

[Faker]

Infy just scumclaimed and isnt talking, she's scum

Koba just threw

Infy wouldn't have accepted if partnered with koba

I can dream a wonderful dream: Town/town and both out of the game.

As unlikely as that is, at least for a little while.

[Faker]

Look, I agree, but let me have a peaceful slumber and ignore the fact that Infinity singlehandedly lost the previous Trust Fall with unilateral action so of course she'll give it a whirl again as town then go silent.

[Faker]

It is the other 6/7 players who are wrong

[Faker]

Don't join games with me either please

[Faker]

faker already negative points for being a massive tryhard

you can call it anti town but I think it makes the game intersting to do it

You can practically smell the desire to win and work cooperatively. Totally not pursuing an agenda of amusement and griefing at the expense of other players.

[Faker]

This is a player of the highest integrity and respect for the game, and any insinuations otherwise are outright insulting.

[Faker]

I thank you for making my only interaction with you onsite last less than a single hour. May it stay that way forever.

[Faker]

"if you want this strategy to not work"

[Faker]

I'm not so sure — I perspective slipped, I refused to talk to discuss my reads with a thrower, and immediately pointed out that I could preplan the isolation plan theater with Infinity before anyone else got the chance. I'm probably scum.

[Faker]

I checked my role PM. Shockingly, I am town.

I guess at some point I should cool off and start evaluating slots again.

[Faker]

I am down to instantly trust inutile for post 54.

[Faker]

I'm not going to do that because I'm looking forward to cooling down and playing again.

But the thought is there, it's present, I acknowledge it, and will eventually refuse it in favor of something more cerebral

[Faker]

I think inutile is town for post 54 because of how last Trust Fall game played out. I encourage people to skim it and reread it with that game in mind. Infinity has to find a line to walk around inutile given that last endgame. It has nothing to do with being the opposite of Koba, though their post did bring 54 to my attention.

[Faker]

If only there was a way to get more information from the first scumflip before we head into the second stretch. Probably unavoidable.

[Faker]

I think the first Infinity post came from reading up as she went. 13 minutes elapsed between posts and she had just answered post 196, which is the page before Koba's trust. The strategic thinking was likely <10 minutes, and probably 2/3 minutes of that were just making sure that the trust was still valid.

[Faker]

I am sure that the last scum was sweating bullets and Infinity had to get out fast before Koba carried this game for the town.

[Faker]

Sure, but I'm serious. I think you threw and nothing will ever changed that. Never join my games again. That'll be the end of it.

[Faker]

Part of me wishes that we could really read into the strategy. The other part of me again says that looking at when she started catching up vs. when she trusted it's unlikely too much thought/backrooms PT shenanigans were happening.

I think Meg/Enchant are town anyway, but there's no harm in not reading into it even if it means an extremely mountainous game moving forward.

[Faker]

For Skitter/Pooky:

I think the first Infinity post came from reading up as she went. 13 minutes elapsed between posts and she had just answered post 196, which is the page before Koba's trust. The strategic thinking was likely <10 minutes, and probably 2/3 minutes of that were just making sure that the trust was still valid.

[Faker]

I could really go on for hours about how Koba is blatantly trolling, I definitely can't sort right now so I'm just going to take the inutile approach and post relaxing music instead.

[Faker]

Great, I'm fine not making another comment about you throwing on the precondition that you don't join another game with me.

[Faker]

I won't apologize to Koba but I will apologize to the rest of the game. Losing my cool has been a distraction that added nothing.

I'll be back tomorrow, but I hope I didn't get in the way of people actually trying to make sense of the reactions.

[Faker]

I won't apologize to Koba but I will apologize to the rest of the game. Losing my cool has been a distraction that added nothing.

I'll be back tomorrow, but I hope I didn't get in the way of people actually trying to make sense of the reactions.

very mature of you

The pure and innocent intentions sparkle and scatter light all around like the most brilliant of diamonds

[Faker]

Oh, there's no night phase.

That works, I guess.

[Faker]

I guess I'll go for a run then get back on the grind.

Curious as to where other people think we should start — I'm inclined to think Meg, Enchant, inutile, and Skitter are all town roughly in that order.

[Faker]

Pavowski, since you're likely to miss it in the cascade, I asked a question I am still very curious about here:

12 days is a brutal long time to wait. Waiting makes the game not fun.

I plan to fire off a trust or two within a day or so.

After reading through a few of your games, I'm increasingly curious about the reason for this. You don't hesitate to comment on mechanics as scum.

[Faker]

faker/meg would probably be my ideal?
or faker/pooky
idk

Why this pairing, and why Day 3 as opposed to 2 or 4?

[Faker]

Or did you mean Day 2? Sorry, you had pitched me going in the third pairing previously but maybe you've changed to the immediate next

[Faker]

Yeah, I'm curious as to your motivation for wanting to trust and get out of the game quickly as town.

[Faker]

uh it's just in order of how strong i townread people, you're my strongest,and then it would be pooky or meg, probably meg

and i meant this phase, if i wasn't clear

pedit yeah i was thinking meg/enchant were unlikely to be scum given that infinity just took the first hammer but i'm feeling less confident in that now it's been pointed out she had time to strategize, so i'm just going by strongest townreads down

I am very selfish and would prefer not to exit until the last or next to last pairing. There's no strategic basis for this — I just love playing and don't want to stop. The game is compromised in integrity but order and ability to play is somewhat restored.

[Faker]

I am willing to go this cycle if we can't think of any other universally agreed upon pairings and people need more time, but I'd really prefer using that only as a last resort.

[Faker]

Fundamentally, everyone else has the same argument as me, but someone's got to go.

We'll see, for now I'd really recommend revisiting that early inutile/Infinity interaction. I read a fair bit of the last trust fall to try and get a read on inutile, and part of that was Infinity's interactions with it there.

Infinity wound up YOLO trusting inutile to lose the game, confident that inutile was town. She's in a bind here, as she has to think of some way to interact with inutile without being overconfident or throwing in the towel entirely. She opts for a middle road like this that also allows her to try to ingratiate herself with skitter:

skitt i feel like shiki's posting is a bit too mech-focused to be ai so far? for me it's harder to see her towny thought process in mech in open setups at least

hm, is there a plan for reading me then?

find a townread and ask them is a consideration for sure

mostly gonna look at how you develop your reads though

This really points to both being town imo, even if this is hypothetically fakeable from both of their ends. It is worth noting that this plan is exactly in the vein of Infinity was portraying in post 27 to start.

[Faker]

This really points to both [inutile and skitter] being town imo, even if this is hypothetically fakeable from both [inutile and Infinity] of their ends. It is worth noting that this plan is exactly in the vein of Infinity was portraying in post 27 to start.

This was really confusing, sorry.

[Faker]

Yeah, I'm curious as to your motivation for wanting to trust and get out of the game quickly as town.

I wouldn't expect the person I trusted to accept right away unless I was unlucky and trusted scum. Getting a trust out there and seeing somebody hesitate would be a good way to get a clear on somebody, and would be a pretty safe play with 7/9 slots green. I guess that was Koba's play, too, though 3 slots at once was more than I would've done.

Now, though, I am much less inclined to play this way

I did a fair amount of research into your games before asking this question, which is why it was so important to me.

In both of your mafia games, you seemed to believe you were decent early but the wheels fell off the wagon later. In Popcorn Mafia, you were widely scumread as town, but in the end became a townlock for Hectic largely for how your thinking evolved over time. I believe your reads also got better in Popcorn as time went on.

As part of your analysis in Popcorn, you said the following:

But at a certain point - I guess it was when Luke pointed out the entire lobby was scum reading me - I just said hell with it,if my play gets me scum read I might as well have fun with it.

A relaxed Pav is a more fun Pav whether I'm winning or not. Let's see if that holds up next time I roll scum...

It is rather curious that you started out this game relaxed but inclined to trust early, rather than waiting until later in the game for your reads to strengthen.

[Faker]

You (Pavowski) are actually my strongest scumread because of those quotes from Popcorn and their applications to this game.

[Faker]

I am curious as to what your reads are when you finish sorting out the mess that is the last 10 pages. There's probably not much to be done to dissuade me, at least for now, but I'm malleable and open to change over time, as my read on Skitter shows.

[Faker]

I'm going to go for a run. Maybe my tiny brain rattling against my skull like a gumball in a jar will shake my reads up a bit.

[Faker]

I am very tired right now but I would appreciate a slowdown. I'm not onboard with this plan.

inutile: You don't need to be in the pairings to solve the game. It's unclear to me why it is a necessity to be cleared now instead of later, or the utility for you specifically over another player except perhaps to make it easier on you. The same goes for most of the other players, for example Meg who is only scumread by Pooky. For a more extreme example, not a single player has outed a scumread on me right now. I don't want to be trusted or cleared, but there'd be clear utility in it: If I'm scum the game is already over, and the assumption of the game is safe.

[Faker]

I am also very disappointed that nobody has interacted with my posts either in favor of inutile town or posing the question of Pavowski scum.

I'm especially horrified that people are willing to hammertest inutile, with as far as I can tell no one really presenting any towncase for them of their own in addition to not engaging with mine.

[Faker]

thanks @pooky for the explanation, i understand it now

i guess i'm kinda wondering if everyone views the tier system as you do (i, as we all know, am not the best with mechanics, and didn't get this until you explained it like that), so in the moment, i'm not sure that's how infinity was viewing it

i think she probably did just want to get her partner's OK to leave (irregardless of if the partner is meg/enchant), which is why she went to 'strategize'.
like i understand your logic, but i'm just not sure it's damning for meg/enchant

I've played this setup twice now and won both times, first as scum and then as town. I have a very good idea of the emotions/movements that a scum player has to go through in order to win the game as well as the emotions/feelings a town player goes through as the game moves.

I don't think Megs emotions feel like someone who is town, I believe Meg is very desperate to leave and that doesn't make sense IMO from a town POV at this stage in the game.

There is a certain level of desire to leave that rings out in Meg's gameplay.

Also it really would be the icing on the cake for Koba's #2 townread to also be scum.

I truly do not know what world you are living in here but I guess I'll try a stab at it in the morning.

[Faker]

I am very tired right now but I would appreciate a slowdown. I'm not onboard with this plan.

inutile: You don't need to be in the pairings to solve the game. It's unclear to me why it is a necessity to be cleared now instead of later, or the utility for you specifically over another player except perhaps to make it easier on you. The same goes for most of the other players, for example Meg who is only scumread by Pooky. For a more extreme example, not a single player has outed a scumread on me right now. I don't want to be trusted or cleared, but there'd be clear utility in it: If I'm scum the game is already over, and the assumption of the game is safe.

Hi Faker,

this is the trust fall game I played in last year with TW, I was scum:

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=84993

The town managed to conftown ~5 players by chain trusting one after another and they had basically 5 ICs discussing who to trust/leave out of the last 3 players.

It's an incredibly powerful mechanic to "confirm" people and have them operating on a level of "trusted IC" and very difficult for a scum player to sow discord/distrust in.

I would like to IC Inutile unless someone has a very strong scum case for Inutile.

I could write up a long case for why I TR Inutile if that would make you feel better.

Hi, I don't need to be lectured on the mechanics of this and I have towncased inutile. Do better.

[Faker]

Hi, I don't need to be lectured on the mechanics of this and I have towncased inutile. Do better.

ok what do you want me to explain then?

I'm not trying to condescend to you dude I just want to win

Go reread the post you replied to and pick out the part that was addressed directly to you.

[Faker]

576 and 579 were absolutely condescending despite your best efforts.

[Faker]

I am missing nothing from you at the moment.

[Faker]

(It is not trust testing that I am opposed to, it is rushing to do it for inutile over something more slow and thorough when very few, if it's even more than one, players has given concrete reason to townread it)

[Faker]

I am honestly so irrationally tilted between Koba and Pooky that it is insane. I have had a trust on Meg typed up several times because the slot is blatantly town and this scumread is beyond stupid.

I might just not post until the prod timer. Do whatever y'all want.

[Faker]

Yes. I am tilted by the Meg scumread and not at all you explaining to me how trust clearing works while appealing to your volumes of experience, failing to even briefly consider or engage with what my publicly stated stances are, and opposing my push for a slowdown, completely failing to realize both that I had towncased inutile and that my post came in reaction to inutile pushing for a clear ASAP.

[Faker]

Pavo: feels a little distant to the game, probably the most likely of the three to be town

Pooky: haven't seen a lot from you besides you explaining why me/enchant is T/S (which I don't think is particularly sound- addresses that Infi hammering there is it is S/T makes sense, but it would still makes sense fmpov for inf to do the same on t/t me/enchant, as well as inf to not hmamer on s/t me/enchant)

This is perfectly coherent. The missing pieces are the PoE townreads to justify Pav being so low.

[Faker]

This is actually so stupid because all 3 of Pooky/inutile/Meg are town and I should just let Pooky read nothing and it matters zero.

[Faker]

you said to inutile that you didn't understand why trust clearing would help her and I cited a game where I saw town use it very well because I wanted to show you that it's very positive for town.

I'm not trying to tilt you.

I have said many times I want to slow the game down.

I am not rushing anything.

You can't even understand the conversation you were butting into holy shit dude

absolutely fucking tilting

[Faker]

Okay, whatever, I'm done, it's out of my system, whatever he says I'm putting it into the shredder, someone can trust him if they want later down the line

[Faker]

My instinct here is that it's just Pav. I would pair off all 6 of Meg, Enchant, Skitter, inutile, Pooky, myself and leave Thor/Pav high and dry, though there are still reasons to think that Thor is town.

[Faker]

3 slices of whole wheat bread with peanut butter, an apple, and black coffee.

[Faker]

There is no issue with the "tiers" of trust presented by Pooky, at least as a useful tool of thinking about the game, though it is critical to understand that the tiers do not actually equate to being town.

I am aware of the argument that Infinity thought strategically rather than left myself and Koba to our own devices. I think this assumption is a mistake, because it relies on all of the town deciding to move forward with that plan and it not getting changed up. This is a big assumption — there's a reason I briefly entertained Infinity accepting as town. I was very worried that people would townread Koba for throwing (and indeed, those people would have been right)

It also depends on Infinity being able to successfully convince a second townsperson to trust her. One world has her partner in Meg/Enchant, and being scared of pairing with the wrong one. Similarly, Meg/Enchant pairing up leaves her out, and pairing outside leaves her with a chance of going with her partner.

The final element of this is just the time constraint. Skitter responded to my timestamps by pointing out there was

some

time to strategize, however this was very minimal, no more than 7/8 minutes at most. It is very difficult to work through all of the pairing suggestions, possibilities, etc. in that time even if you take the above assumptions as a given. Infinity would not, which adds some stress. She showed up, she read, and she made her decision all in the span of that 13 minutes.

[Faker]

Let's tackle the more qualitative side of this read next.

I don't think Megs emotions feel like someone who is town, I believe Meg is very desperate to leave and that doesn't make sense IMO from a town POV at this stage in the game.

There is a certain level of desire to leave that rings out in Meg's gameplay.

There are a lot of posts I can highlight that I think point towards the opposite — the first 15 posts of the game, for example, have Meg advocating for a plan that decentralizes decisionmaking. This minimizes both their own agency and that of other, mistake-prone players in favor of group rule. There's towncred to be won but I wouldn't say any of this advocacy smacked of "desperate to leave"

259 I think is the nail in this coffin.

Hi Koba!
I am not going to trust fall with you (at least today)
Also please retract your trusts until we can discuss them first please.

If Meg is so eager to leave, Infinity hasn't shown up at this point. Just take it. Retracting trusts is both potentially fatal, especially in a Infinity/Meg world where in Pooky's view they are apt to be paired off.

I think there are further posts here, such as 306 and Meg's townread on inutile, but I would much rather Pooky highlight exactly which posts of Meg's are "desperate to leave" and have a desire to leave shine through.

[Faker]

That being said, I think Pooky has just about townlocked himself for me, I feel good about faker too, and I'm probably ok on skit and enchant.

Good analysis, tone, and basically does not at all sound like my experience with scum!pooky as I mentioned last night

Granted that was only one game, and I'm not shooting off a trust yet, but if we still had 2 scum I'd be giving trust there already.

What do you think about Meg?

Also curious why skitter is so far up there for you.

[Faker]

I trust Meg

Don't accept if you're town, just acknowledge and move on, can lead a horse to water but can't make this dude get his head out of the sand and think for 5 seconds.

[Faker]

Sometimes I give up on players and this is one of those times.

[Faker]

If I am wrong and Meg is scum it's a wellearned win.

[Faker]

And you wasted a ton of mine

[Faker]

I spent an hour chewing over your reasoning and giving a response.

640 is stubborn head in the sand moving the goalposts rather than thinking how it actually fits into the narrative you've presented.

[Faker]

If you say so.

[Faker]

I am definitely on the lower tier of effort and care put into this game.

[Faker]

I think meg is probably town but this is also very premature and kinda and just a very instinctive reaction to disliking what pooky said

Kinda viewing this as a wash :shrug:

I'm not really tilted anymore. I gave one genuine try at engaging with that questionable argument from Pooky and failing that I'd rather him realize he's wrong and actually read into other slots. I'd feel worse about unilateralism if every other slot didn't townread Meg as well, but I will gladly take full blame for the loss if I am wrong.

[Faker]

In total I've spent probably 4 hours reading over Meg and his previous games. I am as close to 100% confident as I get. If I'm wrong, that's squarely on me and I will take the egg on the face with a bow and try to do better next time around.

[Faker]

I love how you're both criticizing my will to win, my effort, accusing me of meming & not caring, and simultaneously started the game memeing, refusing to tryhard, refused to engage repeatedly with other cases outside of your own, and now retreating to "I don't care about winning/losing"

[Faker]

Can you remind me who my scumread is and why?

[Faker]

You're halfway there.

[Faker]

That being said, I think Pooky has just about townlocked himself for me, I feel good about faker too, and I'm probably ok on skit and enchant.

Good analysis, tone, and basically does not at all sound like my experience with scum!pooky as I mentioned last night

Granted that was only one game, and I'm not shooting off a trust yet, but if we still had 2 scum I'd be giving trust there already.

What do you think about Meg?

Also curious why skitter is so far up there for you.

Re:meg I don't have strong pings ATM but am happy enough to sheep reads on the slot for now. I see you've trusted there, I think it pays off.

Re: skit he just sounds solvey to me, and posts like this one

Whatever its probably thor and now we need to go through several iterations of this

Meg/enchant are probably next
Faker/someone

Like idk coukd be pooky/inutile but i think it's thor

look to me like somebody thinking in the long term. Maybe that's easy to fake, but with Infy gone scum doesn't need to make it to the end, they'll be looking for the first chance they can get.

At least, that's how I'd view it. This is one reason I'm a bit surprised to see you offering a trust here, even though I think it's a good one.

Also I have to agree with skit on sussing Thor, lotta fluff from the slot, as much as I'm enjoying hearing about all the food you guys are eating *stomach grumbles, still 3 hours before I eat*

[Faker]

Any attempt to teach me how to play the game is going to be doomed to fail when you haven't read any of my play that isn't directly antagonistic to your own goals.

[Faker]

Hopefully you're right and the game just ends and I don't have to bother anymore.

[Faker]

I'm glad the voice of unity and levity is back in force.

Why's Skitter so low for you, Thor?

[Faker]

I wasn't as big of a fan of the push to IC, obviously, but playing it safer ends in a very obvious win minus some real heroics from Skitter to push it. You might be right that it is more likely to come from town, and in general I agree with the rest of your reasoning on it.

I also lean that Pooky is town, and while I could list my frustrations I'll skip them. The townread originates in the wall and reasoning afterwards, but Post #359 helps shore this up in my mind.

I thought skitter's reaction to Dkkoba was probably the most town of them all. I spent awhile wondering whether I should townread your (Thor's) Post #354. After awhile, I realized you were just following Skitter's Post #333 and Post #352. Perhaps this is within range, but I doubt it.

[Faker]

ugh i think we're all very tilted from the events of earlier >.>

i think pooky and faker are town
probably enchant and inutile and meg as well
but i'm gonna sleep on this now, night y'all!

This post may come from a place of wanting one of us to trust her, but there's really no danger in just letting me/Pooky slap fight it out. The first line is an attempt to get us to wipe our hands, use Koba as an excuse, and come back tomorrow with renewed goodwill.

[Faker]

Re:meg I don't have strong pings ATM but am happy enough to sheep reads on the slot for now. I see you've trusted there, I think it pays off.

What do you think of the lack of acceptances on the part of Meg/Enchant? I'd keep in mind Meg posted before Infinity showed up.

It also looks like you're putting a lot of emphasis on tone based off of your reaction to Pooky, so I'm curious if there are any others you're relying on tone to solve. The read on me is pretty universal but unexplained, for example.

Re: skit he just sounds solvey to me, and posts like this one

Whatever its probably thor and now we need to go through several iterations of this

Meg/enchant are probably next
Faker/someone

Like idk coukd be pooky/inutile but i think it's thor

look to me like somebody thinking in the long term. Maybe that's easy to fake, but with Infy gone scum doesn't need to make it to the end, they'll be looking for the first chance they can get.

At least, that's how I'd view it. This is one reason I'm a bit surprised to see you offering a trust here, even though I think it's a good one.

Also I have to agree with skit on sussing Thor, lotta fluff from the slot, as much as I'm enjoying hearing about all the food you guys are eating *stomach grumbles, still 3 hours before I eat*

I don't really see why scum isn't thinking longterm? Skitter wasn't really townread before all of this went down. Whoever is scum needs to convince people they're town, the more the better, and that means thinking longterm.

Looking at it from a different perspective, Skitter's reaction might even be so forward-thinking and rational in a way that is difficult to buy in light of the frustration from most of the town.

[Faker]

Pavowski, it seems like you thought that Day 1 odds+not instantly losing was a bit of a failsafe for the early trust for you. I'm still a bit confused as to why you thought to do it to begin with, or why you planned on going out of your way to do so.

[Faker]

The cited reason was fun or to make the game more interesting, which granted we've seen at least one player use as an excuse, but I'm wondering why you chose to go that route over others you thought of: Mainly, just waiting to see what happens.

[Faker]

LMAO

WELL

EGG ON MY FACE TIME

[Faker]

just got absolutely DUNKED ON pooky wins

[Faker]

that or the mega troll
Here's another Popcorn quote

That's kinda my playstyle, though.

In the beginning I'm always nervous to express reads and get involved, so I hang back more. (This may be why I get scumread a lot.) The longer I survive the more I come on.

Pretty sure that's true for all my games on site, as scum and town, so *shrug*

Leaving this in case it is, runs counter to the spirit of quicktrust

[Faker]

I accept my wellearned L.

[Faker]

[Faker]

I'm so glad I got the pagetop with that

[Faker]

I'm going to go for a run. Maybe my tiny brain rattling against my skull like a gumball in a jar will shake my reads up a bit.

needed to run harder, damn

[Faker]

On the god-given offchance it's still going I'm pretty sure Pav is the scum, see Post 691 and Post 532

That said it's probably time for me to grab the clown makeup and start fitting the red nose on

[Faker]

[Faker]

live look at myself and koba

[Faker]

I will take the L and gladly do the autopsy afterwards for how I managed to fuck up that badly but for now I'm just amused that all of that meta, effort, and thought went straight to losing the game in the fastest possible way.

[Faker]

I was actually thinking about trusting every person other than meg in order to force my read through but I thought that might be too much of a bad manners move lol

I thought heavily about doing this minus Pav but decided not to, instead only forcing through the read I was nearly 100% sure on, and instead not gamble on the others who were more ambiguous.

[Faker]

Don't get me wrong, I'm stupid as hell and Pooky deserves all the credit, but there's a huge difference in equivalency here and it is saddening to here you equate the two.

I put a ton of thought and time into that trust. While the onus is squarely on me for getting it wrong, I kept in mind that only a single player scumread the slot when making it. The intention was not to hero YOLO over the voices of the entire town.

[Faker]

This was literally your proposed pairing. It's not your fault that I decided to follow through with it and carry it out, but acting like I stripped you of any agency or denied you the chance to play is disingenuous.

[Faker]

I absolutely deserve full blame for being the one to trust the slot, and for the many times I risked eating crow.

Simultaneously, I think her voice is absolutely about the outcome and not about the process. That pairing was her suggested one, Meg was universally townread minus you, we all agreed with the concept of chain trusting. The entire point of "I will take the L" isn't that I was cavalierly disregarding the thoughts or agency of the game at large but that I won't seek to put blame on other players. I am not glad to lose, but I fully accept responsibility for it.

[Faker]

It's literally called "Trust Fall". You read a player, you talk about it, you grow in confidence, at some a town player risks it. This is not a majority vote game. You get dropped and proved a fucking moron.

I'm fine with that label of being wrong and a complete moron, but I don't think I disrespected the agency of any players or that I ignored the giant collective will. We had other players advocating for someone to YOLO trust them.

[Faker]

Daaaaamn. I was all getting set to defend myself to Faker and now it looks like game is over?

Sad face.

On some emotional, completely irrational level I still think it's you and Meg is fishing for reactions. I think you failed in that case.

So don't worry, the dream steamboat surges forward, powered by the rapidly depleting stores of delusion below deck that get shoveled into the furnace.

[Faker]

I appreciate the apology. I don't think it's entirely wrong, in that I did go against Pooky, who I was confident was town, and you also mentioned earlier you thought it was premature so clearly process was an issue. I talked with Pooky about the scumread, I did my research, I took into account other opinions, but I still chose to swing and I missed. I missed quite badly, and deserve a lot of flak for that.

[Faker]

It's been an hour since Meg claimed scum. It's a completely natural span of time to reaction test. He totally wouldn't have said anything by now if he's town. Yes, there's still a chance. Absolutely there is.

[Faker]

The dream boat may be out of delusionary coal and might have taken on some water but I've still got the paddle and all those carbs this morning have my arms working overtime

[Faker]

In total I've spent probably 4 hours reading over Meg and his previous games. I am as close to 100% confident as I get.

The Titanic is unsinkable, don't worry

[Faker]

It's okay, tris might be trolling, she'll post the real flip later

;_;

[Faker]

Anyway, I think I made all the commentary I wanted to. I still think Koba threw, but I wound up blowing the game that we had left and that's on me. I think Meg played extremely well. Obviously there's genius somewhere in that Pooky wall even if I never saw it and wanted to reach through the monitor and figuratively strangle the stuffed bear. Egg on my face and apologies to the rest of the town.

[Faker]

If you say so. I'll let the report feature decide the issue, and gladly never interact with you onsite again.

[Faker]

If I agree with you, will you stop blatantly baiting to get under the skin of someone who has made it clear they never want to interact with you again?

Probably not, because you're reaping enjoyment from trolling, as intended.

[Faker]

It's a factor of this setup. To get mechanical information, you have to take the chance on someone being scum. We might have benefited from taking longer to make Infinity nervous (or just slow rolling the conftowns so that we could parse what that meant etc.), but it's overall not a bad strategy.

Trusting Enchant was just legitimately a good move.

Even in a world where trusting 3 different people is a valid strategy, doing it within an hour of replace in was blatantly griefing.

[Faker]

alright well don't be surprised when nothing comes out of your report.

take it as a lesson that people have different points of view of what is "optimal" or "good play" - and that if you disagree that doesn't make them mafia, ok?

because that's the big lesson you should be taking from this - that you shouldn't project yourself on others

Agreed, and sayonara.

[Faker]

thankyou for moderating

Thanks tris!

[Faker]

I'll agree to disagree and leave litigating it to the proper forum for it. I can't in good faith tell Koba not to respond to me if I'm publicly posting about it as well.

[Faker]

I wish you the best regardless of the outcome of the report.

[Faker]

While I've tried to deal with losing with grace and humor, I am livid with myself. I'm sorry for coming up so short. I will keep trying to do better.

[Faker]

While I have never, and do not intend, to take it out on anything physical, this is the most frustrated I have been with a game in year and the feeling is what I imagine runs through the mind of people that break a hand punching a wall.

[Faker]

I don't want you to think I didn't have fun. For some players, the pursuit of better play and improvement is the real fun, even if it means moments like now.

I appreciate the comments and look forward to playing with most of you again in the future.

[Faker]

Again, I want to hear zero comments from you. I let the last two replies pass in the hopes of it being the end of it. Apparently letting you have the last word was not enouhg.

I cannot make this more clear. I do not care whether that came from a place of good intention or not. I don't want a followup or an acknowledgement. Stop typing to me, do not join another game of mine.

[Faker]

I'm pretty fond of it, despite the result. Maybe I'm biased in that I want another chance at it.

[Faker]

I opted not to publicly litigate the gamethrowing intent here. There was no benefit to arguing with someone in bad faith, and I wanted the harassment to end ASAP, even at the expense of my own point of view.

I ceded every point imaginable in the hopes of ending the interaction at the expense of letting my judgment that it was gamethrowing go. I requested, extremely civilly, that the interaction be ended, only to be baited further and have my request to be left alone made light of and have Koba threaten to join my games again.

I requested a warning that Koba to stay away from me. I was willing to cede whatever, as long as I got some assurance that I would not be harassed or baited in bad faith further. I marked the box asking to let it be known when my report was handled. After two weeks of no response from the moderation team, I assume I will not get one.

I will not play again, and I want to voice exactly why.

[Faker]

To be clear: If the moderation team felt it was not gamethrowing, then I was willing to cede that. The postgame behavior was completely unacceptable, and to have received no response on it is a disgrace.