Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[Goatrevolt]

I don't think there is any reason for us to start lynching unless we're losing. The best bet is to start by trying to win the chess game, and if that goes sour, then start trying to lynch black. We have a natural advantage in that we have two options for winning. By sticking to the chess game first, then later mafia, we get the chance to utilize both. If we go lynching first, then chess, we could easily hamstring ourselves.

Move e4

I'm far more comfortable opening with this over d4. I'm pretty unfamiliar with d4 openings (I know there is the Queen's gambit, anything else?).

[Goatrevolt]

A lot of discussion seems to be hinging around getting queens out early. From my experience, generally the lesser pieces, such as knights and bishops will duke it out early and gain control of the center until later on when the queens come out to play. If you pull your queen out too early, it becomes a merry-go-round where black keeps chasing your queen around the board while developing theirs at the same time.

Move Nf3

. Gets the knight out there and pushes for control of the center of the board. Nc3 also seems like a decent play.

Bc4 doesn't seem very strong to me, but if anyone has a decent case for it, I'll hear it out.

[Goatrevolt]

The majority of chess games I have won involve me taking a pawn and converting that small advantage to a win in the endgame.

However, the grabbing a pawn vs. keeping superior position debate is really getting us nowhere. You can't really ever say one is always better than the other. It all depends on the specific situation. Sometimes grabbing a pawn IS superior board position because you can trade your way to a favorable endgame. Sometimes grabbing that pawn sacrifices your position so much that it ends up being the wrong move.

As far as trading pieces goes, my rule of thumb is to trade when you're winning and don't trade when you're losing. Secondly, I never trade pieces "just because I can" but only try to do so if it looks like it is a legitimate benefit.

Anyway... Nf3 still seems the best to me. It gives us a chance to push for control of the center with d4. Nc3 also seems fine, and I would be willing to compromise to make that play if no consensus can be reached.

[Goatrevolt]

I really like f4 a lot. I feel it's aggressive and actively fights for control. I'm not a fan of g3, which seems to just cede tempo and set ourselves up for the long haul.

Nf3 can come after f4. The alternate cannot happen, at least until that knight moves again.

Move f4

[Goatrevolt]

I think our only real options here are Bc4 and Bd3. We have a fairly strong positional advantage right now and we should capitalize on it. Moving out the bishop:

1. Puts pressure on black's weak kingside
2. Opens us up for castling (also putting pressure on black's weak king)

Qe2 is bad. It blocks in our mobile bishop in and loses us tempo because black can easily develop and protect the king. We lose out in development (trapping the bishop), tempo (black develops at the cost of a move to us), and our positional advantage.

Bd3 seems solid, but d6 is a decent black response that both fights for control of the center and protects the f pawn. We also trap in our own d pawn, which could serve as problematic down the line.

Thus I think our best play is

Move Bc4

to put pressure on the weak black kingside and prepare for additional pressure with O-O.

Rather than check the black king with Qe2, I'd rather prepare for Re1, which is a stronger play.

As for Gorrad, I'd have to review his posts to see where people are coming from, but I don't see any benefit towards lynching people right now. I consider white to have the board advantage in this game. Lynching shouldn't even be on the table. Giving black a NK to kill off good players is a bad plan.

[Goatrevolt]

Qe2 pins whatever black moves into the way when we follow up with Nd5. Black taking the pawn in response was fairly predictable, that should give us an indication of who is scum by the level of their moves

Hm...actually Qe2->Nd5 doesn't sound too bad. I'll have to reconsider that.

Black really doesn't have any solutions for getting rid of that knight at d5. Then again, by trapping in our bishop, we don't have a whole lot of options for putting on additional pressure either...

I still think Bc4 is probably best, because we can always still do Qe2 (or Re1 depending on how things go) and follow with Nd5 later on, but we get our bishop out first.

[Goatrevolt]

A bishop pin is too slow. The open column gives initiative to whoever calls check first. If black does, we'll be a move behind because we spend a move running instead of developing. I intend to follow with Nd5 next turn for more attacking power. Depending on what their response to that is, we bring the fN into the attack too or bring out the cB to open up 0-0-0.

I think we have some good responses to Qe7 if black decides to do that. That play doesn't really worry me much.

Unmove

I'm going to give Qe2 more consideration.

[Goatrevolt]

Move Nxb4

[Goatrevolt]

Move d4

for basically the reasons Lawrencelot said. It centralizes a pawn and opens up the diagonal to get our bishop out and give us the chance for a queen side castle.

I also like b3, which gives us Bb2 into O-O-O.

I'm not a fan of h4 at all really. It doesn't directly impact the game or advance any strategy for winning that I can see.

[Goatrevolt]

g3 is decent, but a very defensive play. I'm not sure if I like it for that reason.

I don't like Ng5 much. It just means black can play h6 at some point and cause us to have wasted a move as we backtrack the knight. We don't have enough pressure on the kingside to make use of the knight up there.

Qc4 gets met with d5, slamming the door in the face of our queen. Indigo, can you explain how we get a pawn from it? I don't see the move sequence that results in us picking up a pawn.

Anyway, I like Qb5. It pins the pawn at d7, and threatens the pawn at f5. It also puts some minor pressure on the b4 pawn, which could lead to even more pressure with Bd2 later on. Either black moves g6 and destroys their kingside pawn structure or they lose the pawn at f5. Both seem good to me.

Move Qb5

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, can you explain why g6 is bad for black (after Qb5)? I see it only help their pawn structure, or I'm missing something.

It opens up the diagonal. Qe5 now pins the knight to the rook.

Right now, as it stands, if Black castles, they have Kh8 as a safe spot for the king. If black has already moved g6, they have no safe spot for their king after a kingside castle, as the king will always be open to an attack along the diagonal.

[Goatrevolt]

Qb5: g6 shuts down the pawn take plan. Gets countered by a6 in the following move.

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qb5, g6
11. Bd2, a6
12. Qe5*/chess tag removed*

We have the bishop and knight pinned, and our own Bishop is threatening to take a free pawn at b4.

g3: Yes it's defensive, but gives us more moving space. I have this down as possibly the best move for the turn.

This is my 2nd best move for the turn.

b3: Lost a lot of it's power from the last turn, but still a decent move IMO.

Not worth it now that we've moved d4. I'd much prefer g3 over this.

[Goatrevolt]

From move 10-14 the queen moves 4 times while they move 4 different pieces. Talk about bad play...

They've moved 3 pawns, none of which have developed their board any, and a knight to a place where it accomplishes literally nothing. While generally a principle like "4 queen moves < 4 moves by different pieces" is true it's not something that can be applied to everything. Meanwhile we've developed 2 bishops (Bd2, and opened the path for our white squared bishop) and maintain pressure on the b4 pawn, forcing a defensive move from them.

I still like Qb5, but Indigo makes a good point about Qc4. I want to explore that path more before making a decision.

Unmove

for now.

[Goatrevolt]

Seems like a well thought out move. I was first opposing Qc4 because of the d5 move, but now it makes sense that the d5 move is actually bad for black.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. I didn't look into it any further than Qc4...d5, Qb5...Qd7, which appeared to be solid for black.

Move Qc4

[Goatrevolt]

Getting a pawn at the cost of development is acceptable. Black has zero threats on our king right now. We can afford to give them some development in exchange for a pawn advantage. We just have to trade pieces away and win the resulting endgame a pawn up.

Your second scenario is pretty much accurate, except I wouldn't capture the knight at d7 with our knight at e5. He has a strong presence there and will be cramping black's kingside for some time. If black captures our knight with his, then we have a protected advanced pawn, which will be powerful in the endgame.

[Goatrevolt]

Unmove

I can't believe I didn't even consider Qe5. It's basically the same principle of Qb5 (pressuring the unprotected f pawn, while opening up our white-squared bishop). It doesn't have the pin on the d pawn, but keeps the pin on the bishop, and pins the knight if white goes for g6.

I'm going to look into it.

[Goatrevolt]

Black's likely response will either be d6 or d5. I see good variations to both of those moves. Thus:

Move Qe5

[Goatrevolt]

When d6 happens, black's cB will be protecting the 'free pawn'. Pay attention.

I stand by my assertion. I see good variations to both d6 and d5.

[Goatrevolt]

To clarify, I know that d6 opens the bishop to defend the f pawn. My "good variations" do not include anything like this:

11. Qxf5...BxQ

[Goatrevolt]

If black castles, why not just grab the free pawn and then work to trade pieces to a favorable endgame?

[Goatrevolt]

g3 is not a bad play, but it's entirely a defensive move. I wish to maintain pressure on black, rather than give them opportunities to stabilize their kingside. I don't like to make moves I consider "filler" moves that don't really have any set goal they accomplish, but get made simply because they aren't "bad" moves, persay. g3 fits that criteria in my opinion. I don't really see what we intend to accomplish by playing g3, or where that gets us.

I want to look more into the castling variation of Qe5. I assumed black's response would be d6 or d5, and we had good plays to both of those, but if black instead castles, essentially giving up the pawn for a stronger position, we need to evaluate whether losing some positional strength for a pawn is worth it or not. If we can later equalize, then it's definitely worth it, otherwise, no.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm still here. I will be giving this game attention tomorrow.

[Goatrevolt]

Unmove, Move Qc4

It looks like black castling will foil both Qb5 and Qe5. We can get the pawn, but I see some pretty aggressive threats from black that makes the pawn grab seem like too much of a risk. Especially in a move-by-committee game like this, risks like that are unnecessary. Qc4 is a safe play and keeps pressure on. Any of the more defensive plays seem weak.

[Goatrevolt]

We wouldn't play Qb3 in response to d5...b5.

11. d5 ... b5
12. Qd4

That threatens d6, which would be really strong.

I do agree with veerus about this. However, I would like to propose that we move to Bd3. It applies pressure on the f5 pawn. Black would most likely play d6 to get rid of the Queen, or d5 to complicate matters, but I see ways for us to win on either route.

move: Bd3

11. Bd3 ... d5
12. Qb3 ... b5

Our queen has nowhere to go. Our bishop has nowhere to go, and black has a pretty dominating board presence.

If you guys would rather, Qxf5 is a move to consider, but to me, it's too direct.

Qxf5 isn't an available move.

-----

Here's how I see it:

1. We can play a move to develop our white squared bishop. Bd3 fails for the reasons I mentioned above (basically, it holes up our queen at b3 with no options for escape). Bd2 is better, but we still look rough after black plays d5.

2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, develops the other bishop, threatens the b4 pawn, and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

3. There is also d5, which is currently my top pick. It's an attacking move (I don't consider Bd3 to be attacking, as d5 shuts it down entirely) that keeps black having to respond to our attacks rather than initiate ones of their own. Black's obvious response of b5 gets met with Qd4, which continues to threaten black with the powerful d6.

[Goatrevolt]

2. A better option is

Bd2

. It doesn't restrict our queen, develops the other bishop, threatens the b4 pawn, and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

Be2 you mean.

No. I mean Bd2. The other bishop.

[Goatrevolt]

I see how my post might have been confusing though.

1. We can play a move to develop our white squared bishop. Bd3 fails for the reasons I mentioned above (basically, it holes up our queen at b3 with no options for escape).

Be2

is better, but we still look rough after black plays d5.

Bolded is the fix.

[Goatrevolt]

Prod received. I'll catch up either later today or tomorrow, depending on when I get time.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm sorry, man. I really screwed up this game. I've been going over the game over and over and wondering where we went wrong with this, but I have yet to see where it is we drew/lost this game. I'll keep searching.

I think it was when we moved Qe2 instead of Bc4. While we gained some temporary advantages, blocking in that bishop has only hurt us. Even now, we're still trying to figure out how to make effective use of it. There probably were a few other moves in there somewhere we screwed up, but I really haven't gone back to look at it. I don't think it's important now, but I bet that will come in handy if we need to start lynching.

Move Bd2

I think this is our best move. I still think d5 is strong...at least stronger than Be2 or Bd3, but it's riskier. There's a chance we simply lose that pawn for no gain.

Way too much emphasis is being put on castling. We don't need to move our white squared bishop to make way for the castle. Look at the board. Is our king any safer castled to the kingside? Not really. In retrospect I also agree that our king is not safe castled queen side (to whomever called me out on that). Our king is fine where he is for now. Let's stick with making moves that help us, not filler moves, or moves to facilitate castling, when castling is unimportant right now.

[Goatrevolt]

*chess tag removed*]1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 d5
12. Qb3 O-O
13. Bxb4
*/chess tag removed*

Instead, try this for move 13. The entire point of Bd2 is to threaten the b4 pawn while developing our bishop. It keeps the pressure on black and prevents them from castling, not by slapping our queen down the diagonal, but by forcing them to defend their pieces.

[Goatrevolt]

The b4 pawn can be easily protected by a5 or Qb6.

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 a5
12. Ne5*/chess tag removed*

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 Qb6
12. c3*/chess tag removed*

I suppose I could get behind Bd2 as long as we agree that castling queen-side is a BAD BAD idea and the f1 bishop will need to be developed sooner than later.

I will agree to no such thing. Let's not lock ourselves into moves. Castling queenside looks bad right now, but might be more attractive later. I'm not seeing a pressing need to develop our f1 bishop, mainly because all of our "developing" moves require a loose interpretation of develop. Move it away from its starting spot? Yes. Have it do anything useful? No.

[Goatrevolt]

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qb3 Bb7
*/chess tag removed*

Instead of 12. Qb3, do 12. Qd4.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qd4 d6
13. Qxd4
*/chess tag removed*

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board.

The only fundamental rules of chess involve piece movement. I used to lose games because I adhered to principles like this. I would waste moves facilitating castling when I didn't need to. I actually lost a few games because I castled my king into a less safe spot than the one he was already at.

Look at the board. Is our king in danger? Is he safer castled? Until a point where our king is in danger, or we need to get that rook in play, castling is unimportant.

I'll look into d5 more, but remember that black has more responses than just b5. I'm worried d5 is too complicated of a move. d5 is risky. I don't think risky is how we should be playing this game...not in a move-by-committee setup where black has the ability to manipulate our moves and has access to our discussion about which moves fail. I think we should continue to be aggressive, however, and I think Bd2 keeps pressure on.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, 12...d6 fails due to Qxb4. And 12. Qd4 does not prevent us from losing the pawn after 12...Bb7.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qd4 Bb7
13. d6
*/chess tag removed*

Yes, our king is MUCH safer castled. And due to our position beind under-developed, we may not have enough time to get him to safety when the king does come under pressure.

This is meaningless without reasoning. How is our king safer castled? How does castling protect our king?

But if you want to take that line of reasoning, our queen is not under attack either. Why is there such a push for d5 as a knee-jerk reaction to protect the queen from future attacks?

The point isn't to protect out queen. It's to make it useful. It's the same reason you are arguing against Qb3. It sequesters our queen into the corner and removes its usefulness.

In other news, Bd2 will make our queen useful.

[Goatrevolt]

2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, (1)develops the other bishop, (2)threatens the b4 pawn, (3)and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. (4)Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

1. How?
2. That's pretty nice indeed, but ...a5 would stop that
3. So does Be2?
4. Not following about the rooks part.

1. It moves it into a position where it is pressuring another piece and likewise clearing a path for castling (should it be necessary) or moving out that rook.
2. a5 stops the pressure on b4, but opens alternatives.
3. Be2 does nothing. It may "develop" the bishop, but it puts no pressure on black and doesn't advance our position any. Bd2 is superior, because it forces black to react by defending their pawn on b4. Be2 on the other hand, allows black to gain tempo by making whatever kind of aggressive move they want.
4. The only file right now where our rooks would have any presence is the e file, which would be blocked off by Be2. I realize now, that this is a fairly moot point anyway, as Ne4 blocks that file regardless.

[Goatrevolt]

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Ne5

I got to here and then wondered why we wouldn't just play 13. Bxb4.

[Goatrevolt]

And actually, I'm a little suspicious that neither you nor veerus considered Bxb4, considering pressuring that pawn is pretty much the point of Bd2. If black doesn't move to defend it, we just simply take it. If they do move to defend it, we have good alternatives.

Qb3 and Be2 are both bad moves. I don't like how discussion has reverted back to those options. Qb3 defends our queen before black even bothers to attack it by throwing it in the corner where it does basically nothing. Be2 moves our bishop into a position where it does nothing so that we can open up the avenue of kingside castling, which is completely unnecessary right now.

I remember considering a4/c3 and deciding against them earlier, but I can't remember why. I'll look at them again.

[Goatrevolt]

@Goatrevolt: Off the top of my head, if 13. Bxb4,

13. Bxb4? Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4+ 15. Qxb4 Nd5!.

*chess tag removed*e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 a6 Bd2 b5 Bd2 b5 Qb3 Bb7 Bxb4 Bxf3 gxf3 Bxb4 Qxb4 Nd5*/chess tag removed*

16. Qd6. Leads to some interesting positions, but I think we maintain equality at worst, and have attacking options. I'll look more into it tomorrow.

[Goatrevolt]

Why not just move 11. Ne5? There's only 1 solution to it as I see right now. I don't have a followup in mind yet.

I'm not a fan.

11. Ne5, d5
12. Qb3, O-O

I think e5 is a great place for our knight to be eventually, but I don't think we really benefit from moving him there now. That's one of those moves that the threat of making that move is stronger than actually moving there (at least for now).

If that be the case, 16. ...Qh4+! How would you move then?

Yep, that's the move black almost certainly makes.

17. Kd1

I've looked through that line some (I'm still looking for the right move set), and it looks like white doesn't really achieve much more than equality. There are a few lines that lead to some nice attacks, but black always seems to have an answer.

I don't want to give up on Bd2 yet, but I'll concede that 13. Bxb4 probably leads to a draw/loss unless black screws up. I'll keep looking at it, at any rate.

I'm still interested, though. Did you consider Bxb4 and discard it as being a bad move, or did you just find out that it didn't really work after I pointed it out?

[Goatrevolt]

@Goatrevolt: Are you sure you wish to do that?!

17. ...Ne3+ (if you still wish to continue) and now Black has a clear advantage (if it wasn't evident enough earlier).

Actually, Ne3+ was kind of a trap I had planned out, because after 18. Kd2 black doesn't have anything left. However, looking at it again, I realize I completely overlooked 18...Nxc2, which would foil that plan completely.

At any rate, I concede the point.

Out of Qb3, Ne5, Be2 I think Qb3 is probably the best of the bunch. Ne5 I think is poor for the reasons I mentioned previously. It basically forces black into making the move they want to make in that situation anyway. I also think the threat of Ne5 is more powerful than the knight actually being at e5. Be2 I think is poor as well, because I remain unconvinced that our king is safer castled kingside, and I don't think it's necessary to waste 2 moves to do so.

Qb3 at least retains tempo, as black is forced to move d5 (without actively threatening anything) before they can castle. That effectively gives us back control. As for what we do after that point...I'll have to look into it. Maybe some Bd2 would hit the spot .

There has to be a better move than Qb3, though. I will continue to look.

Unmove

[Goatrevolt]

Actually, Ne3+ was kind of a trap I had planned out, because after 18. Kd2 black doesn't have anything left.

That would be 18. Ke2. And actually, black has 18...Nc4 as well, which also looks bad.

[Goatrevolt]

But if we do something else than Qb3, they will also probably move d5, and we can do Qb3 after that. Like someone (veerus?) said, our Queen is not under attack right now.

There is a difference, though.

1. We move Qb3. Black moves d5. Now the ball is in our court and we again get to make the move we want, hopefully pressuring black. We keep the tempo.

2. We move something else. Black moves d5. Now we have to move our queen out of the way to Qb3. Then it's black's move again, but this time the ball is in their court and they get to make the move they want, potentially putting pressure on us. Now they have the tempo.

Anyway, I looked through:

11. Qb3, d5
12. Ne5

and

11. Qb3, d5
12. Bd2

and I can't find anywhere in either variation where we can establish any kind of advantage.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't see how lynching right now could possibly improve our chances of winning in any way. If we mislynch, we give black greater say in our moves, and the chance to night kill whomever is the biggest threat to them. That seems like it would pretty much end any chance of us winning on the board. Unless, of course, you're declaring that we've already lost on the board, in which case I'd have to disagree.

I think our key to winning is to make fundamentally sound moves and hope to win via black making a mistake or us simply achieving a superior position (which I guess requires black to make a mistake) and inching our way to a win. We can't really trick them, we just need to hope they screw up and then play a solid game until we win.

[Goatrevolt]

Also:

Well, my chain of thought was 11. Qb3 d5 12. Ne5...

So...

move: Qb3

You moved Qb3 right after I just said I didn't see anything good coming from that variation. Have you looked through this line?

[Goatrevolt]

Some moves are obvious and will take us 10 hours to make. Other moves, like this one, are a bit less obvious, hence the longer day.

Once we get later on in the game, we'll have less moves to choose from and thus things will speed up considerably.

[Goatrevolt]

Guys, we've been burned by this before. Simply because black playing d6 works out well for us doesn't necessarily mean black is going to play d6. We need to consider other possible plays here.

What do we do if black plays Qa5?

[Goatrevolt]

I can't find a good position for us after:

11. d5, Qa5

[Goatrevolt]

We have a semi-positive line for after 11. d5... I STILL don't see how we're not fucked by 11. ...d5 after any other move. If someone would please just explain to me how 11. ...d5 does not screw us over after another move, I will gladly change my vote to avoid a no-move.

11. d5, Qa5. I rape your line.

I have proven in earlier posts how stupid d5 is

Where? I've heard you comment on how stupid it is, but I don't recall you providing any reasoning behind it. Mind pointing me to it?

Also, how does:

Just glancing at AA's (You don't mind if I call you that?) sequence of moves, he may be on to something here, but still, it still looks like a very much equal position to me.

fit in with your statement about d5 being stupid?

I'll make a move tonight. I want to look through our options a bit more first.

[Goatrevolt]

There seriously are no good moves...

Move Qb3

[Goatrevolt]

Qb3 is ineffective and wasteful since our queen isn't under any pressure right now and will have that square to retreat to next move if we so desire.

Qb3 gives us back tempo. It forces black to play d5 before they can castle, in which case we get the chance to make the offensive move again. Granted, I've looked through a bunch of variations after Qb3 and they all end up even for us if we play correctly, but quite frankly I think even is as good as we're going to manage at this phase in the game. Play a safe move and hope black screws up is probably the best bet. Qb3 is a fairly safe move that can lead to even positions. Technically, Be2 is similar in that it's a safe play, but I think it leads to less attacking chances.

[Goatrevolt]

Also, Qb3 isn't wasteful. We're going to be forced to move our queen from c4 when black plays d5 eventually anyway. Doing so ahead of time simply allows for us to retain tempo when black does actually play d5.

[Goatrevolt]

In any case, I'm looking at the aggressive-looking Qxf5, which may be something that could help give us an advantage.

Deja vu? Qxf5 is not an option here.

Indigo is correct, though. I tried to find a better scenario for the lines he posted and could not do so. Based on that, Qd3 seems superior to Qb3. The only other option is Qe2, which seems to be strictly inferior to Qd3.

Move Qd3

[Goatrevolt]

Qxf5 later, after Qd3. You can see it in the notations in my previous post.

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 (or perhaps 13. Qxf5) Kh8...

Ah, gotcha. I remember looking at that line and deciding it was bad, but I can't remember the exact reasons why. I'll have to check again.

[Goatrevolt]

I see a break for d5 that may be advantageous to us. I am reluctant to reveal it, though, and allow Black the pleasure of already having their moves calculated and analysed for them.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. It's best not to mention it, although I think the damage may be done simply by nature of pointing out that there is such a move set.

I think much of our current discussion is harmful. All of the discussion is based around what we do after we play Qd3 and how black might respond to Qd3, etc. which isn't exactly helping us any unless it's actually affecting whether or not we SHOULD play Qd3, and to my understanding, it isn't. If we can all agree that we should play Qd3, we should simply play it, and shut up about how black might respond.

[Goatrevolt]

Actually, here's an idea:

If you see a positive line for white, which I'll call X, don't point it out, but rather suggest you think moving the first move of X is our best move.

If you see a negative move set for us, go ahead and point it out, as we don't want to make that move anyway (I think we should play from the assumption that black makes the best move they have available).

Thoughts?

[Goatrevolt]

That seems like a reasonable idea goat, but when people can't see the long term advantage it may lead to the problem that the move doesn't get enough support.

Aye, that's a potential pitfall. I'm trying to think of a way to alert players to the benefit of the move without actually giving it away to black. I'm not sure if there's even a possible way to accomplish that.

Where's the rest of the game?

[Goatrevolt]

That seems like a reasonable idea goat, but when people can't see the long term advantage it may lead to the problem that the move doesn't get enough support.

Aye, that's a potential pitfall. I'm trying to think of a way to alert players to the benefit of the move without actually giving it away to black. I'm not sure if there's even a possible way to accomplish that.

Where's the rest of the game?

There isn't. Black is just as smart as white.

I think I have a possible solution, actually.

What I mean by this is that theoretically White's best chance of winning the chess game is to have the best chess player on White make all the moves but not elaborate on his reasoning behind it. Then the chess game is simply a battle of wits between black and the best white player, which gives white good chances of winning, depending on the distribution of skill. The reason this is the case is the nature of chess itself. There's no "strength in numbers" when it comes to chess. A single grandmaster can beat 1000 collaborating players on the opposite team. The opposing team's best chance of beating that grandmaster is to pick the best player, or best two or three players and have them solely decide on the moves to make.

Here are some problems: how do you determine who the best player is and how do you establish whether or not they are white or black? I think we should be able to rank players based on chess skill in a fairly accurate fashion. As for alignment, that's a trickier question, but I'm of the opinion that even if we screw that one up, we still give ourselves a decent leg up when it comes to lynching, because we gain a lot of insight into the alignment of the player making the moves.

Our current strategy really gives us a low chance of winning the chess game. How do you win a chess game against an opponent when you tell them your strategies every step of the way? You can only hope they screw up, but you've given them the tools to not screw up. I think our way to salvage the chess game is to pick a player and have them make the moves for us. Worst case scenario, we lose the chess game, but I think that is the way we are heading anyway with our current strategy and current board situation. Even in that worst-case scenario, we gain valuable insight into the alignment of the player making the moves. We force that player to go back and reason each move he made throughout the game, and then we decide whether or not we think he's likely to be town or scum based on that. That's a lot of chance to screw up, even if we end up choosing scum to fill that spot.

First of all, I want to hear thoughts on this idea. After that, I'll go through how I think we should begin to implement it.

[Goatrevolt]

I personally don't think that black has played poorly thus far.

Agreed. I don't know if this is a result of black having good players or being spoon fed moves, though.

Goat, while the idea sounds good on paper, I really don't see how we can pick one person to make THE move. At best, I would agree that such a person would be allowed to have a double/tripple vote, but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless that person's move was backed up by at least 2 other people.

Hm...that would provide some sort of a fail-safe, but could also create a scenario where the best player has the best move but can't enact it because no one else sees it.

Maybe have 3 people decide upon the move? I'm wondering if that defeats the purpose, though...

Actually, the triple vote idea seems solid. Maybe give one person a triple vote and another person a double vote? That way, those two players can solely decide on a move if they agree, but don't have the power to make moves by themselves. I think that sounds like a solid plan. The question then becomes: who is willing to give up their vote?

[Goatrevolt]

Also, who would the two players be?

[Goatrevolt]

I haven't played in any OTB tournaments since I was in middle school. I played ICC, but it was a long time ago, and I can't remember what my ratings were. I played a lot of chess in high school, but have only played sporadically since then. I used to play a lot (in high school) on a site called gameknot, which was turn-based (not real time. Similar to the play here). My rating on that site was on average around 1700-1750, which was good enough to be above 90th percentile at the time. I have no idea as to the strength of that site compared to other online sites, though.

I've played a game here on mafiascum, if you want to look it up, and make a judgment call yourself.

[Goatrevolt]

Picking the player (or players) is not as simple as I had thought.

With the looming deadline, I think we should worry about making this move first, and push off the other discussion to tomorrow. I remember SSK saying that a move would be randomly chosen if we don't pick one, and with our queen being attacked by a pawn right now, that seems like it could be game over. We could get hosed by a random a3 or some other nonsense move.

I still believe Qd3 to be the best play here.

[Goatrevolt]

When'd I say this?

Actually, I looked back and didn't find you actually saying this. For some reason I thought that was the case.

Here's the actual rule:

21. If there is a set deadline, and a majority of votes hasn’t been reached for a chess move, then the move with the highest votes will be chosen. If there is a tie a die will be rolled to pick.

[Goatrevolt]

Not sure exactly why I was prodded...at any rate, I still believe Qd3 to be the better move. I don't get why the argument against Qd3 is blocking in the bishop. Black already accomplished that with b5.

no.. because attacking that pawn is a secondary objective.. the primary objective is to move the queen out of the way into a position where it would be useful.. and technically g6 ruins the pawn structure on the kingside if black castles there

This pretty much sums it up.

[Goatrevolt]

At this point, we either need one of the two unvoting players (or both) to vote on a move, or someone from Qb3 needs to make the right play and swap to Qd3.

[Goatrevolt]

So do we go on with our initial plan and capture the pawn on f5? If so, how do we deal with the discovered threat after the knight moves?

What discovered threat with the knight? Are you talking about moving the knight away so that the rook threatens our queen? The only move that would cause that to happen is Ne8, which seems pretty weak for black. I'd guess black moves d5 in response to Qxf5.

I think we're looking at two options here.

1. Qb3+. Black either moves d5 or Kh8.

2. Qxf5. Black likely moves d5.

[Goatrevolt]

I think Qxf5 will work out for us. We trade position for pawn, but with solid play we should be able to work our way to a win.

Qb3 had the potential for more, but was also riskier.

[Goatrevolt]

Move Qd3

Qe5->Ne4
Qg5->Ng4

[Goatrevolt]

Is there any other way to stop Nxd2-Rxf4?

Nxd2, Qxd2, Rxf4, Qxf4

g3 looks solid anyway, even though that pawn doesn't immediately need protection. It strengthens the pawn structure, opens up that bishop that has nowhere to go, and could potentially be useful in stopping a "piece to h4" check that could be relevant down the line.

Ne5 doesn't seem that good to me. I like the knight where he is, and I don't think we need to worry about an imminent check on our king from the e file, considering black has 2 pieces in the way they'd have to get out first, and they'd have to get their rook over, and we can just move Ne5 in response if it happens.

Qd3 seems weak to me. I'm not sure what the purpose of this move is.

Not sure about Bd3, either, but it looks better than Qd3. I'm guessing the purpose here is to keep black from having the option of capturing our bishop.

Be2 is also a possibility. I want to look into that one more.

[Goatrevolt]

Prod received.

I haven't had time to look through Be2 yet. I'm still not seeing a compelling case for Be3, though it is better than Qe3, at least.

[Goatrevolt]

Move g3

Definitely better than Be2, Be3, Qe3.

[Goatrevolt]

Qe2 looks to be the worst option.

As for Qe3 and Qb3, I need to look through each variation, but Qb3 looks better to me at first glance.

[Goatrevolt]

? the g3 square is protected. So is f2. I can see it threatening Nxd2 though. Why don't we move the Bd2 somewhere instead

The reason we need to move our queen is because of the "discovered" attack on the queen from black's bishop when they move the knight. For example, if black moves Nxg3, then they are attacking the rook with their knight and also attacking the queen with their bishop at the same time. We'd have to move the queen so we don't lose it to the bishop, but we would end up losing our rook for free to the knight in return.

[Goatrevolt]

Qb3 still looks better to me, but I'm curious about Indigo's assertion that Qe3 is better.

Max, why Qe3?

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah, I'd like to finish as well, despite my severe lurking.

Move Qb3

Still not seeing why this is bad. Still looks better than Qe3 to me.

[Goatrevolt]

Why are we not examining the merit of Nxd2?

Kxd2 might be better, but we should at least consider alternatives.

[Goatrevolt]

Re1 looks the best to me at first glance.

[Goatrevolt]

An outpost? Black's looking to infiltrate our position.

I say that we should confront Black's outpost before he manages to consolidate it.

move: Bd3

I'll post the reason when I'm sure of it.

18. Bd3?? ... Bxf3

Did you seriously overlook that?

[Goatrevolt]

I agree with AA that we should aim for removing the pin. I think Be2 is our best option.

It's better than Bg2 for removing the pin, but I'm not sure it's a necessary play right now. However, the threat of black moving g5, threatening g4 might actually mean we need to get rid of the pin ASAP.

Qe3 isn't bad. That might be better than Re1, but I'll have to look into it more.

Veerus, rather than Rc1 following Rc8, why not c3? It rips apart our pawn structure, but it also allows more mobility for that rook, which may otherwise be chilling at c1 for a while?

[Goatrevolt]

c3 = BxN (unless we move the queen now)

*facepalm*

The irony of me falling for the same mistake I called others out for is slapping me in the face pretty hard.

So Qe3 looks better than Re1, then.

[Goatrevolt]

Move Qe3

[Goatrevolt]

Anyway, to the people voting Re1, what will your response be to ...Rc8? Our best reply to that before was c3 however that is no longer an option.

Then Rxe4, and Black might as well resign.

Wow, I can't believe I missed that.

Unmove, Move Re1

[Goatrevolt]

Sorry, forgot about this game. Anyways, to make this game run a tiny bit quicker, you must make a lynch and a chess move this day.

Ok...why now? I really dislike a rule swap mid game, especially since this one seems strictly beneficial to scum.

[Goatrevolt]

I disagree that this game is torture. It hasn't been crazy amounts of fun, but I like the concept, and want it to succeed for that reason alone. I do agree, though, that the game loses redeeming qualities when the rules change midway through.

[Goatrevolt]

AA, personally, I can't believe I missed that move. Goat seems to have missed it as well. Perhaps, in hindsight, pointing it out wasn't the best thing but I think that sends some major pro-town vibes. I do think that it's quite scummy of Goat/Lawrence to QUICKLY hammer the move that would hang the bishop ONLY IF black didn't see it. But since it was explained and revealed, the purpose and the element of surprise of Re1 was gone and it was obviously the lesser move at that point.

I personally have some notes of some scummy things that I noticed both Goat & Lawrence do in the past and this just adds to the pile

Wrong. It was the best move at that point, even if black knew about it. We forced black into moving...Kh8 while we developed a rook. If you're going to FoS me under the idea that I'm scum quick-hammering a subpar move, then I expect you to give some reasons as to why it was subpar. It was by far the best move at that point. I'd love to hear you explain why I'm wrong.

I don't see Indigo explaining the merits of Re1 to be much of a tell. Actually I'd lean slightly more toward it being a scum tell. That move was probably going to go through, despite how oblivious a lot of us were. Explaining it as town gives black the solution, but ensures the move is made. Explaining it as scum muddies the waters of who would be capable of making that play as black. The scum motivation seems slightly more likely than the town one.

----

Our move today needs to be either Qe3 or Re3. We need to make a move that allows us to play Bd3 next, otherwise Black moves Rc8 and we have to waste a move by moving our rook back to c1. I think that Qe3 is better than Re3.

Move Qe3

[Goatrevolt]

However, now that I think about it, Indigo being early on the wagon for Re1 is a town tell. I can't imagine scum wanted that move to go through.

[Goatrevolt]

Here's why:

So Qe3 looks better than Re1, then.

Since Re1 would DEFINITELY not work due to black knowing the danger behind that move, it was a subpar move compared to Qe3, even by your own admission.

No. That's wrong. Just because black knows the threat doesn't make it less of a threat. We get a free move in Re1, it would be dumb not to take it.

[Goatrevolt]

Ne5?

Bxh1

Re3?

Solid, but Qe3 does the same thing and is better.

TCS, I guess an argument can be made for a bishop move protecting the knight and c3 in response to Rc8. I'll have to look at it closer.

[Goatrevolt]

So wait, no one else thinks lawrence/goat look scummy for what they did?....

Apparently other people don't consider hammering the best available move to be a scummy play, as crazy as that sounds. The onus is still on you to explain why Re1 was worse than some other move. Saying it is so doesn't make it so.

[Goatrevolt]

ok fine..

before the trap was revealed you were of the opinion that Qe3 is better. And it

is

better UNLESS black doesn't see the trap behind Re1. Therefore once the trap was revealed, Qe3 was the hands on favorite. Here's why:

I thought Qe3 was better when I didn't notice the trap. It became worse after I saw the trap,

even though

black knew about it as well. Question for you: When you play chess do you assume your opponent is going to make the best move or not? I'm curious why you seem to think public knowledge of the trap in Re1 somehow affects the value of the move.

As I mentioned before, the pin on the knight makes c2 a very WEAK place for white and a very GOOD target for black. Rc8 puts so much pressure on white it's insane. Previous answer of c3 no longer works. In addition, the a5-a4 push for black also threatens putting the queen in the corner where she is totally useless. Rc8, a5-a4 are likely even more potent in a combination.

I agree. c2 is vulnerable.

That's why Qe3 was better than Re1. And you seemed to agree with all that when you voted for Qe3. Until the Re1 trap was revealed and thus nullified. So instead of saying, oh well, we missed it, now Qe3 is DEFINITELY the better move because the only redeeming quality of Re1 (the surprise trap) was gone. But no, you and lawrence help speed-hammer the now completely useless move.

No, it's not useless. It's a free move. Can you say with a straight face that you think black was happy to move Kh8? I've explained this now a few times. Look at my analysis for us to move Qe3 today. We move Qe3, and when black moves Rc8, we have Bd3.

And I've seen you play in other games. You are a very good player. Missing this line of thought seems out of character for you... unless it was on purpose.

In the end, the result of this set white back: we wasted a move while black was able to move its king into complete safety. Now we MUST play Qe3 and then deal with defending the c3 pawn. Another delay will bury us and the extra pawn won't mean a thing.

No, this is just you exaggerating the "futility" of our position. Look at these two positions. You pick which one is better and get back to me.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 Rc8 20. Bd3

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Qe3 Rc8 19. Bd3

[Goatrevolt]

What is our response to g5?

Ugh. That move might mean I actually was wrong about Re1 (though not for the reasons veerus suggests). I'm not seeing an immediate answer to it.

Unmove

, while I ponder.

Bh3 is better than Bg2 for offensive purposes. Bf5 would be a key position eventually to prevent g5 with Bxg6e.p.?

Bh3 doesn't really accomplish much offensively. At this point we should be playing defensively anyway. We're up a pawn and can ride that to a win, but we need to stabilize our position first.

Secondly, you can only en passant with pawns. Even if you could en passant with a Bishop, we'd be trading a bishop for a pawn, which isn't in our favor.

[Goatrevolt]

Firstly, happy scumday to Goatrevolt!

Thanks. I partied hard to celebrate the momentous occasion.

Looks like AA said everything I would've

Oh please. His explanation for why I was wrong is completely different than your own.

How would Qe3 last turn have been better equipped than Qe3 this turn after Re1, Kh8 in dealing with g5? I'm very interested in your answer here. I'm also interested in why g5 doesn't change your opinion of Qe3 at all. Where you already expecting g5, or are you just going to keep plugging away at what now looks like a worse move?

[Goatrevolt]

Of course you're interested.. you need to know if we have a great reply that makes g5 a poor continuation for black.. but for the benefit of the rest of the town, i'll oblige:

Right, right, naturally. I'm both a good enough player to know that Re1 was subpar, but I'm a bad enough player to need you to explain to me possible variations here. I'm one of those people who is sometimes an excellent player (when I make a subpar move it's deliberate), but I'm also a terrible player at times who needs people to explain everything to me so I know how to move as black. Right, Veerus? Anything to fit your half-cocked notions that I'm scum, eh?

And why the hell would you "oblige" for the rest of the town? If I'm the only one asking you for this, and you think I'm scum, then you have no reason to oblige my request.

At any rate, I don't think those positions look right, but I haven't analyzed them at any depth yet, so I'll hold off judgment until I do.

[Goatrevolt]

The mini limit is no consideration to me (I'm mini capped to my knowledge, but I don't plan on joining any new games anyway). I'd prefer to finish out the game, but I'm not going to throw a fit if it gets abandoned.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't see dead people?

I'd say just go ahead and abandon it at this point. The game becomes decidedly less fun when the majority of players aren't even interested in playing and would prefer abandonment. Without active interest, this game is going to drag on and continue to do so for a while.

SSK: It wasn't your game to begin with, and the abandonment isn't a result of mod error or any kind of issue on your end. I wouldn't sweat it.

[Goatrevolt]

The f4 pawn is lost. We need to salvage the game before we lose that too.

This is true.

Move Bd3

Better to lose that pawn in a few moves then worsen our position irrevocably.

[Goatrevolt]

doh, on a side note, i deleted all my notes about this game because i thought it was going to be dead i guess i'll have to re-read if this goes down to the wire

Ouch. I use to take notes, but I have become increasingly lazier the longer I play mafia (and also I would never go back and look at them, so it was a pointless venture).

[Goatrevolt]

Qe2 is a bad move. I can show the line if needed, but it's not the play here.

move gxf4

[Goatrevolt]

Read the thread or we will lynch you unceremoniously.

unmove

I missed a nice move in my line against Qe2, so I shall reevaluate.

[Goatrevolt]

We do gxf4....

21. gxf4 Bd6

Yeah, that's all I need to see. Bd6 would screw us over hard.

Move Qe2

[Goatrevolt]

I'll be moving it fo' sho. Fo' sho!

Move Qxd3

This one is no contest.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm sure there was a mate in 4 if black played poorly, but I'll echo the doubt about it being anything resembling a forced mate.

g4 seems pretty good. Ne5 is...ok, but I don't know exactly what it accomplishes. I think the knight is solid where he's at to prevent the queen from using that diagonal.

[Goatrevolt]

I like Ne5 here, without too deep a look. I'll take a deeper look on Monday. Maybe Re6.

Again (1) I haven't looked too deep and (2) this doesn't matter because it is passed . . . but why did we quick-move without even waiting for everyone's opinion and why didn't we consider Qxe7?

I looked into Qxe7. It was bad comparatively.

Qxe7 Qxe7
Rxe7 Be5
Rf1 fxg3

And we're in a bad position.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm back. Will catch up tomorrow.

[Goatrevolt]

Re6 looks fairly solid to me. I haven't seen any unavoidable bad lines from it yet. I have to run now, but I'll try to look into g4 tonight to compare.

[Goatrevolt]

I haven't looked into g4 yet, sorry. When is deadline?

[Goatrevolt]

Wow, yeah. Black left themselves completely open to Ng5. I don't see any flaws to that move, and there are a lot of opportunities to gain piece advantage depending on how black plays from here on out.

The other option is Rhe1, which I think looks worse for a couple of reasons. One is that it doesn't make immediate threats that need to be answered, like Ng5 does, and the 2nd is that the rook actually is somewhat strong in its current position (fxg3, hxg3 and the rook is staring directly at Black's king).

Move Ng5

[Goatrevolt]

Ng5 doesn't lead anywhere except a very quick draw. We would probably have more options with Rhe1.

There is a lot of attacking chances with that move. I don't see anything resembling a quick draw.

[Goatrevolt]

NG5-Pawn H6?

Or
NG5-RE6
NE6-Q Somethingoranother.

I see short-term, seeing that the first puts the knight in danger and achieves nothing. Show me how this is not true, please.

We have a pretty damn good counter to both of those moves, although I'm hesitant to point it out as of now.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, and everyone else on the Ng5 wagon. What do you think is the best reply by black is. If you find it, then you've found the draw-ish resolution (or at least anti-climatic given how good Ng5 seems at first). I'm reluctant to post it as it is a great reply, in my opinion, and I'd rather not give it away if black doesn't see it.

I'm pretty sure I know what move you're talking about. I think that move gives black a fairly equal position. I wouldn't necessarily call it a definite draw, though. I also would suggest you don't point it out.

I also think that if we play something like Rhe1, we'll end up seeing a very similar position anyway. No?

Veerus, what is your alternative move to Ng5?

Even though I (think I) see the move veerus is talking about regarding Ng5, I still think it is the best play, simply because I'm not seeing an alternative play that is stronger, and if black doesn't play it correctly, then we will likely win from Ng5.

[Goatrevolt]

Dear Diary,

It's day 24 and still nobody is dead yet. We haven't lynched anyone, and the mafia still aren't killing. I don't know how long I can hold out. The suspicion is getting to me and we're still playing the same damn game of chess we've been playing since day 1. Where is the damn chess clock? Why isn't the game over yet!

We're running low on rations. I can't imagine what we'll do when the food is gone. We'll have to eat... *shudders* I think I know what will happen and, it makes me want to throw up. We need to end this before it gets to that point. I wish I knew how to speed it up. How do we speed it up?! How do we end the game?!

The only thing I can think of is chess positions. Variations. Lines. Captures, forks, pins, discovered check. It plays through my mind over and over again. Ng5! No, Rhe1! NO! I think I'm going insane. No. I know I'm going insane. I need help.

Yours truly,

G. Revolt

P.S. Welcome to the game AH!

[Goatrevolt]

I've gotta get back to work, but Rhe1 looks best at first glance. I should have time to look at this more when I get back from work tonight.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm not seeing it, Indigo.

[Goatrevolt]

I've looked into it more. I still don't see it. I see us losing a pawn, actually.

[Goatrevolt]

Rf1 then Rf8 as a black response to Rf1. I see our knight under attack from their queen, us retreating, then black pressing the offensive.

[Goatrevolt]

Rhe1

This move forces the immediate rook trade. However, I see us losing a pawn in the long run.

Rhe1, Rxe6
Nxe6, Qf6
Nxf4, Bxf4
gxf4, Qxf4+
Qe3, Qxh2+

And we lose a pawn.

Rf1

Rf1, Rf8

And the queen forces a knight retreat. The other alternative being h4 to protect the Knight, but that just opens us to fxg3 and a protected passed pawn.

Qf3

Provides no extra benefit over Rf1, and also simultaneously takes away the pressure on h7. Strictly worse than Rf1.

Kd1

Defensive. Protects our king from later threatened pins/checks/discovered checks from the queen or bishop along the black diagonal. I like this move more than the alternatives presented thus far, but it just seems to...meh. We're basically just saying "Hey, black, move again, although a few moves down the line you might not have a check you would have otherwise had."

--------

So...

g4

Booooyah. We give black the passed pawn, but f3 is a veritable minefield, so I don't see black advancing that bad boy any time soon. g4 prevents black from being able to gain any possible advantages in terms of fxg3 shenanigans. It also allows us to play h4 and continue our onslaught on black's kingside.

Errr...damnit. Never mind. I think this move fails to Rxe6.

------------

Move Kd1

I'm going to move here for now, but I'm going to keep an eye out for something better. g4 might still be good, but I need to look through it more.

[Goatrevolt]

Qh5 isn't very threatening, but you're dead right about Qxd5. I didn't even notice that...

Unmove

[Goatrevolt]

What's the response to Rf5?

[Goatrevolt]

Move Qf3

[Goatrevolt]

Rhe1, Rxe6
Nxe6, Qf6
Qf3,

Made a change. Opinions?
So one question, if we do Rhe1, why would black want to trade rooks, instead of doing a different move?

Qxe6. We lose the knight.

Black has to trade rooks because we threaten Re8+, which would trade our rook for their queen. That would be a game winner.

g4

Booooyah. We give black the passed pawn, but f3 is a veritable minefield, so I don't see black advancing that bad boy any time soon. g4 prevents black from being able to gain any possible advantages in terms of fxg3 shenanigans. It also allows us to play h4 and continue our onslaught on black's kingside.

Errr...damnit. Never mind. I think this move fails to Rxe6.

I don't get this one. Why wouldn't black do f3? If our queen hits the pawn, wouldn't the bishop come into play at f4? Queen can't hit him or we'll lose her. Which means we lose our knight as the king has to leave, and the next move for us, the queen will be attacked. If she doesn't move to e2, we'll also lose our rook at the e-line.

Because after they play f3, we just play Rf1 and they would lose the pawn.

At any rate, that move isn't very good. It looked good when I saw it at first but I was thinking too long term and missed the short term implications.

[Goatrevolt]

Qxe6. We lose the knight.

Followed by Rxe6?

Will look at what you said about the trade.

Oops. That's what happens when you play off of memory. Let me look at it.

[Goatrevolt]

Actually, that looks pretty damn good right now.

Rhe1, Rxe6
Nxe6, Qf6
Qf3

I'm seeing us win a pawn here. Correct me if wrong. I'm on my lunch break from work, and I need to head back. It looks rock solid so far, though.

Unmove

[Goatrevolt]

Move Qf3

[Goatrevolt]

Qf3 is the correct move here.

[Goatrevolt]

h4 fails to h6.

Rxh6+

Rhe1 is the better move here.

Qxg5.

Move h4

[Goatrevolt]

Nh3 isn't bad, but I think it's worse than h4. The main issue I see with it is it allows black to follow it up with Raf7, amassing a lot of pressure on that file.

I really like the Knight where he is. The threat of Nf7, or simply preventing black from moving the rook there is strong.

[Goatrevolt]

Move Re5

[Goatrevolt]

why are you both voting for Re5 w/o explanations when that move is our worst choice?

It's not our worst choice. Look at it again.

[Goatrevolt]

ok fine, i see it, but i'm still not convinced it's better than the other options... i'll think about it

Rhe1 might be close to the same strength. It's straight up better than gxf4.

[Goatrevolt]

I haven't forgotten. I just have nothing to add. My vote is on the best move, and I encourage others to follow suit.

[Goatrevolt]

Unmove

for now.

I'm not convinced Qd3 is better than Re5 either. I don't see how black escapes Re5 without at least a pawn deficit if not a lot more.

[Goatrevolt]

No kidding. I was wondering if this game was dead.

G4 is good but I'm not sure g4 is the best. We gain a pawn in terms of piece advantage (assuming rook = 5, bishop = 3, pawn = 1), but we grant black a protected passed pawn, and some offensive threats. I feel with our board position, there has to be a move here that gives black no chance of coming back.

G4 leads to a likely winning endgame. Is there a move that just skips the endgame part and nails black to the wall now?

[Goatrevolt]

I've been hit by the long arm of the prod. I'm sick, have 0 desire to look at a chess board right now. Hopefully I'll be better by tomorrow.
-Goat

[Goatrevolt]

Move g4

I will read the bajillion pages I've missed later.

[Goatrevolt]

What's wrong with g4? I don't see any obviously winning lines from Nxh7, whereas I have cashed in on a Rook v. Bishop endgame to a win countless number of times. A rook in endgame defends pawns better and attacks pawns better than a bishop. The 1 pawn (strictly materially) advantage we have will almost definitely be stretched into more once things clear out a bit more.

I don't understand the whining over a winning move. Get over it and let's win the game???? Seriously...

Move hxg5

[Goatrevolt]

I wouldn't be complaining this much had the mod only counted the votes before deadline. And guess who's part of that problem due to him voting after deadline?
If you were so opposed to Nxh7, why didn't you join the discussion about it?

I didn't realize it was after deadline when I voted, although I would have placed my vote even if I did know. There's no reason not to. I haven't read 5+ pages of this game, where I'm guessing this heated discussion over Nxh7 occurred.

I had the flu (likely swine), an ear infection, and a sinus infection over the last 2 weeks. I had no desire to slave over a chess board, and when I eventually decided to take the time to look into the move, I simply moved the best available move I saw and was done with it. I'm not going back to read those pages unless we screw up an easy win and have to resort to lynching, which seems rather unlikely.

Even if the mod screwed up with the deadline votes, which it looks like he did, I completely fail to understand why this is such an enormous deal. We are going to win the chess game. Relax, play smart chess, and enjoy.

[Goatrevolt]

That move looks pretty damn good.

FoS: Rg6

I'd like to make sure it's the best before putting it near hammer range .

[Goatrevolt]

Qf5 isn't terrible. I just don't see it being better than Rg6.

[Goatrevolt]

Nope. Qf5 looks like a queen trade to me.

[Goatrevolt]

Nothing has been hammered yet, Indigo. I'm leaving now, but I'll check out Re5 later tonight.

[Goatrevolt]

My laptop power adapter is dead. I should be getting a new one tomorrow or Wednesday, but I have limited access in the meantime. I've skimmed up to this point, but haven't had the time to analyze each move to really make an educated decision.

[Goatrevolt]

My computer is up and running again. I'll check out the game tonight.

[Goatrevolt]

Move Qf5

Nothing else seems to be close. Pressure on the bishop and pawn means the pawn at the very least is a freebie.

[Goatrevolt]

I still like Qf5 over both of those.

[Goatrevolt]

Move Rhe1!

Hasta la vista...queenie!

[Goatrevolt]

Sorry, typo in my last post. I wanted to know what Goatrevolt's response to
32. Rhe1 32...

B

h4
is. And now I also want to know what veerus's response is.

33. R1e2 ... f3
34. Qxf3

Prevents the Bishop's counter-attack on the Rook and reasserts the threat of Re8.

I agree on Rh5 feeling weak. The end result appears to be us getting a pawn...a pawn we can already get whenever we so desire. I'd rather just go for the throat with Rhe1 right now, though.

[Goatrevolt]

I haven't seen anything to persuade me against Rhe1. Veerus' move selection looks spot on.