Open 97 - Lovers Mafia (Over in 3 days!) before 703

[SensFan]

Vote: Adel

because I can.

[SensFan]

I can't see Adel being scum with anyone else.

Is that a slip?

[SensFan]

I can't see Adel being scum with anyone else.

Is that a slip?

Uhm.

If Adel were scum, she'd have to be scum with someone else.

See the logic here?

I saw it more as talking about Guardian and Battousai, and how she couldn't see Adel being Scum with anyone but those two. Obviously, she shouldn't be able to see Adel being Scum period if she's not Scum.

[SensFan]

So who can you see being scum with Guardian? Sensfan?

I most certainly can't see myself as being Scum with anyone, which is the point I was making.

[SensFan]

I can't see Adel being scum with anyone else.

Is that a slip?

have you ever played with me or read one of the games I've played in before?

(my guess is yes, which makes your posting seem like a transparently exploitative attempt, and really not up to the standard of play I'm expecting from this game. be a baller.)

No.

[SensFan]

In other news, why is Guardian still breathing?

Because its page 2?

[SensFan]

Whatever.

Unvote, Vote: guardian

[SensFan]

Why do you think I'm Scum?

[SensFan]

wait -- also -- SF, what reason did you have to vote me, if any?

2 people were calling for a hammer so I went back and looked at your play thus far. I didn't like you trying to make someone unlynchable, but I thought maybe it was Adel/JDodge scumpair. When Gurgi also called for a hammer, I knew that at least one of them was Town, so I hammered.

[SensFan]

if you have any questions for me or comments on my analysis of the game please present it now. I feel about 85% confident in it.

I think lynching Sens is better than lynching Adel thanks to Adel's tendency towards gambitting, meaning that any tells on her are less solid.

I have a very large tendency to gambit.

[SensFan]

wait -- also -- SF, what reason did you have to vote me, if any?

2 people were calling for a hammer so I went back and looked at your play thus far. I didn't like you trying to make someone unlynchable, but I thought maybe it was Adel/JDodge scumpair. When Gurgi also called for a hammer, I knew that at least one of them was Town, so I hammered

so one or two townies and one or two scum wanted me hammered... ergo you hammered?

you say you looked at my play -- what if anything was suspicious about it?

I found you suspicious, but not suspicious enough to hammer with potentially only the Scum calling for a lynch. When Gurgi chimed in, I knew there was at least one Town person comfortable with your lynch, so I hammered.

As I said, I really didn't like the whole MOS thing.

[SensFan]

wait -- also -- SF, what reason did you have to vote me, if any?

2 people were calling for a hammer so I went back and looked at your play thus far. I didn't like you trying to make someone unlynchable, but I thought maybe it was Adel/JDodge scumpair. When Gurgi also called for a hammer, I knew that at least one of them was Town, so I hammered

so one or two townies and one or two scum wanted me hammered... ergo you hammered?

you say you looked at my play -- what if anything was suspicious about it?

I found you suspicious, but not suspicious enough to hammer with potentially only the Scum calling for a lynch. When Gurgi chimed in, I knew there was at least one Town person comfortable with your lynch, so I hammered.

As I said, I really didn't like the whole MOS thing.

There were 3 people voting him. Of course there was at least one town person comfortable with the lynch.

Don't get me wrong, the lynch was just what this game needed to get kick-started - but your pretense for hammering is bullshit.

I don't consider a page 1 vote as comfortable with a lynch.

[SensFan]

wait -- also -- SF, what reason did you have to vote me, if any?

2 people were calling for a hammer so I went back and looked at your play thus far. I didn't like you trying to make someone unlynchable, but I thought maybe it was Adel/JDodge scumpair. When Gurgi also called for a hammer, I knew that at least one of them was Town, so I hammered

so one or two townies and one or two scum wanted me hammered... ergo you hammered?

you say you looked at my play -- what if anything was suspicious about it?

I found you suspicious, but not suspicious enough to hammer with potentially only the Scum calling for a lynch. When Gurgi chimed in, I knew there was at least one Town person comfortable with your lynch, so I hammered.

As I said, I really didn't like the whole MOS thing.

There were 3 people voting him. Of course there was at least one town person comfortable with the lynch.

Don't get me wrong, the lynch was just what this game needed to get kick-started - but your pretense for hammering is bullshit.

this.

citing evidence that at least one townie supported my lynch is a really, really really bad justificatory thing for my lynch.

id say sensfan is maybe even a better lynch than adel.

it is really really bad to lynch someone just because at least one townie (and possibly two scum!) want it.

Note that that is not my entire justification. I was suspicious of you, as I have now said 3 times.

[SensFan]

wait -- also -- SF, what reason did you have to vote me, if any?

2 people were calling for a hammer so I went back and looked at your play thus far. I didn't like you trying to make someone unlynchable, but I thought maybe it was Adel/JDodge scumpair. When Gurgi also called for a hammer, I knew that at least one of them was Town, so I hammered

so one or two townies and one or two scum wanted me hammered... ergo you hammered?

you say you looked at my play -- what if anything was suspicious about it?

I found you suspicious, but not suspicious enough to hammer with potentially only the Scum calling for a lynch. When Gurgi chimed in, I knew there was at least one Town person comfortable with your lynch, so I hammered.

As I said, I really didn't like the whole MOS thing.

There were 3 people voting him. Of course there was at least one town person comfortable with the lynch.

Don't get me wrong, the lynch was just what this game needed to get kick-started - but your pretense for hammering is bullshit.

I don't consider a page 1 vote as comfortable with a lynch.

Because people yelling "LYNCH HIM" on page 1 is somehow more serious?

The tone of the 3 lynch him posts certainly came off as serious. Are you trying to backtrack from your asking for a lynch? Is anyone else claiming they weren't serious?

[SensFan]

sensfan -- it wud have been nice to say you were suspicious of me, and why, and let me respond to it -- before hammering.

not doing so is uberscumzie

Fair enough, though I think everyone on the wagon is just as accountable for the fact you were lynched as I was, since they were all calling for a lynch.

[SensFan]

sensfan -- it wud have been nice to say you were suspicious of me, and why, and let me respond to it -- before hammering.

not doing so is uberscumzie

Fair enough, though I think everyone on the wagon is just as accountable for the fact you were lynched as I was, since they were all calling for a lynch.

Hello tomorrow's lynch.

Had I been voting him and not you, would you have hammered?

[SensFan]

sensfan -- it wud have been nice to say you were suspicious of me, and why, and let me respond to it -- before hammering.

not doing so is uberscumzie

Fair enough, though I think everyone on the wagon is just as accountable for the fact you were lynched as I was, since they were all calling for a lynch.

Hello tomorrow's lynch.

Had I been voting him and not you, would you have hammered?

Yes, because I'd have thought it a well-reasoned hammer instead of pandering to the masses.

It's Sens-Flimsy. Calling this now.

So I am scummy for doing something that you would have done in my spot, because I waited to see if it would have the approval of at least 1 Town person?

[SensFan]

You're scummy for hammering someone on a case you didn't believe in on the basis of pandering to the majority.

Now see, that's complete bullshit. Do I need to point out the (now 4) times I've said I found him scummy?

More to the point, stop avoiding the question. Why am I scummy for doing something you would have done, but waiting to make sure at least 1 other Town person agrees?

[SensFan]

You're scummy for hammering someone on a case you didn't believe in on the basis of pandering to the majority.

Now see, that's complete bullshit. Do I need to point out the (now 4) times I've said I found him scummy?

More to the point, stop avoiding the question. Why am I scummy for doing something you would have done, but waiting to make sure at least 1 other Town person agrees?

I've answered your question multiple times. You only showed suspicion after the fact, AND only showed enough suspicion to hammer once

you precieved that it was safe to do so, because a majority makeup of the town tomorrow agreed with you.

.

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

[SensFan]

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

Vote =/= call for the hammer; you yourself said that page 1 votes were pretty much meaningless.

Right. But you are saying that I'm Scum for hammering only with support of 50%+ of the Town. Surely that is the case for any hammer...

[SensFan]

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

Vote =/= call for the hammer; you yourself said that page 1 votes were pretty much meaningless.

Right. But you are saying that I'm Scum for hammering only with support of 50%+ of the Town. Surely that is the case for any hammer...

You're not at all paying attention to what I am saying.

YOU YOURSELF have said, multiple times, that you waited on the hammer until you had (and I paraphrase a bit here) "at least 1 town" calling for it. Hence, you waited for

3 people

to call for the hammer.

This allows you to weasel yourself out of suspicion because

they asked for it

. Sans this confirmation, people would have basis to say "but we were just pressuring him, why the hell did you hammer on page 2", which would thus be bad for you. You saw the opportunity to hammer a townsperson with minimal suspicion being inflicted upon you, and you took it.

I would never hammer anyone without 50% of the Town supporting it.

[SensFan]

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

Vote =/= call for the hammer; you yourself said that page 1 votes were pretty much meaningless.

Right. But you are saying that I'm Scum for hammering only with support of 50%+ of the Town. Surely that is the case for any hammer...

You're not at all paying attention to what I am saying.

YOU YOURSELF have said, multiple times, that you waited on the hammer until you had (and I paraphrase a bit here) "at least 1 town" calling for it. Hence, you waited for

3 people

to call for the hammer.

This allows you to weasel yourself out of suspicion because

they asked for it

. Sans this confirmation, people would have basis to say "but we were just pressuring him, why the hell did you hammer on page 2", which would thus be bad for you. You saw the opportunity to hammer a townsperson with minimal suspicion being inflicted upon you, and you took it.

I would never hammer anyone without 50% of the Town supporting it.

Then again, if by some obscene stretch of the imagination you

are

town, you are henceforth urged to grow a pair.

I have been Town before, you realize? And why should anyone end the day without a majority agreeing for a lynch? Why should my opinion override that of the majority?

[SensFan]

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

Vote =/= call for the hammer; you yourself said that page 1 votes were pretty much meaningless.

Right. But you are saying that I'm Scum for hammering only with support of 50%+ of the Town. Surely that is the case for any hammer...

You're not at all paying attention to what I am saying.

YOU YOURSELF have said, multiple times, that you waited on the hammer until you had (and I paraphrase a bit here) "at least 1 town" calling for it. Hence, you waited for

3 people

to call for the hammer.

This allows you to weasel yourself out of suspicion because

they asked for it

. Sans this confirmation, people would have basis to say "but we were just pressuring him, why the hell did you hammer on page 2", which would thus be bad for you. You saw the opportunity to hammer a townsperson with minimal suspicion being inflicted upon you, and you took it.

I would never hammer anyone without 50% of the Town supporting it.

Then again, if by some obscene stretch of the imagination you

are

town, you are henceforth urged to grow a pair.

I have been Town before, you realize? And why should anyone end the day without a majority agreeing for a lynch? Why should my opinion override that of the majority?

If you have a good reason to hammer, then hammer already; you can justify it later. You are human. You are fallible. You are likely to be wrong. That should not stop you in the least.

However, when you try to remove self-accountability, that in and of itself is suspicious.

Why should the person who happens to not be voting someone be more accountable than the 3 people who are calling for a hammer, but happen to be voting that person?

[SensFan]

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

Vote =/= call for the hammer; you yourself said that page 1 votes were pretty much meaningless.

Right. But you are saying that I'm Scum for hammering only with support of 50%+ of the Town. Surely that is the case for any hammer...

You're not at all paying attention to what I am saying.

YOU YOURSELF have said, multiple times, that you waited on the hammer until you had (and I paraphrase a bit here) "at least 1 town" calling for it. Hence, you waited for

3 people

to call for the hammer.

This allows you to weasel yourself out of suspicion because

they asked for it

. Sans this confirmation, people would have basis to say "but we were just pressuring him, why the hell did you hammer on page 2", which would thus be bad for you. You saw the opportunity to hammer a townsperson with minimal suspicion being inflicted upon you, and you took it.

I would never hammer anyone without 50% of the Town supporting it.

Then again, if by some obscene stretch of the imagination you

are

town, you are henceforth urged to grow a pair.

I have been Town before, you realize? And why should anyone end the day without a majority agreeing for a lynch? Why should my opinion override that of the majority?

If you have a good reason to hammer, then hammer already; you can justify it later. You are human. You are fallible. You are likely to be wrong. That should not stop you in the least.

However, when you try to remove self-accountability, that in and of itself is suspicious.

Why should the person who happens to not be voting someone be more accountable than the 3 people who are calling for a hammer, but happen to be voting that person?

You're ignoring my point and arguing the basis surrounding the point.

I am not saying that I am unaccountable. I am not saying that any of us who called for the hammer are any less accountable than you are. I am saying that your waiting until you had that safety net of 3 other people having as much accountability as you is suspicious.

I don't hammer if a majority don't support it, extenuating circumstances aside. Why should my opinion be more important than the majority's?

[SensFan]

Right. But you are saying that I'm Scum for hammering only with support of 50%+ of the Town. Surely that is the case for any hammer...

You're not at all paying attention to what I am saying.

YOU YOURSELF have said, multiple times, that you waited on the hammer until you had (and I paraphrase a bit here) "at least 1 town" calling for it. Hence, you waited for

3 people

to call for the hammer.

This allows you to weasel yourself out of suspicion because

they asked for it

. Sans this confirmation, people would have basis to say "but we were just pressuring him, why the hell did you hammer on page 2", which would thus be bad for you. You saw the opportunity to hammer a townsperson with minimal suspicion being inflicted upon you, and you took it.

I would never hammer anyone without 50% of the Town supporting it.

Then again, if by some obscene stretch of the imagination you

are

town, you are henceforth urged to grow a pair.

I have been Town before, you realize? And why should anyone end the day without a majority agreeing for a lynch? Why should my opinion override that of the majority?

If you have a good reason to hammer, then hammer already; you can justify it later. You are human. You are fallible. You are likely to be wrong. That should not stop you in the least.

However, when you try to remove self-accountability, that in and of itself is suspicious.

Why should the person who happens to not be voting someone be more accountable than the 3 people who are calling for a hammer, but happen to be voting that person?

You're ignoring my point and arguing the basis surrounding the point.

I am not saying that I am unaccountable. I am not saying that any of us who called for the hammer are any less accountable than you are. I am saying that your waiting until you had that safety net of 3 other people having as much accountability as you is suspicious.

I don't hammer if a majority don't support it, extenuating circumstances aside. Why should my opinion be more important than the majority's?

Never said that. Said that you shouldn't hold back on acting on your opinion for fear of being shunned by the majority.

I feel like you're playing word games here. You agree that my opinion shouldn't be worth more than the majority, but I'm scummy for waiting for me to make a majority of people happy with a hammer to hammer?

[SensFan]

Can you give me any arguments I have refuted, or at least point me to arguments I haven't, in your mind, refuted well enough?

[SensFan]

Can you give me any arguments I have refuted, or at least point me to arguments I haven't, in your mind, refuted well enough?

The problem isn't that you're refuting arguments, nor that you're not refuting arguments well enough; the issue is that you're outright

ignoring the point

. The point is that you waited until you could spread out the accountability, and then defined your suspicion after-the-fact; you were attempting to make it look like you were just following the town's will when you were following your own.

I would have had no problem if you had just said "I thought he was scum, hence I hammered." I have a problem when you say "I hammered, I thought he was scum but I wanted to make sure at least town person agreed with me."

See my point there?

Sure. I disagree with the point, but I see it.

I don't know how I can better state that

I will never hammer anyone without 50% of the Town agreeing with the hammer. To do so is, in my opinion, saying my opinion is worth more than that of the majority.

[SensFan]

I don't know how I can better state that I will

never

hammer anyone without 50% of the Town agreeing with the hammer. To do so is, in my opinion, saying my opinion is worth more than that of the majority.

I don't know how I can better state that in that case,

if you by some obscene stretch of the imagination you are town

, you are

strongly

advised to grow a pair.

Emphasises changed.

Are you implying I am never Town?

[SensFan]

Right. But doesn't the fact that I do that regardless of my alignment in general mean that it has nothing to do with my alignment in this game?

[SensFan]

Right. But doesn't the fact that I do that regardless of my alignment in general mean that it has nothing to do with my alignment in this game?

Then give examples of this behaviour in the past if you think it will clear you. I am not here to hold your hand and guide you through something that you should know by now.

I am not expecting you to hold my hand, and I don't think the condescending attitude was necessary, either. I am just saying that I don't see why I am being called scummy for not wanting to take advantage of a situation and hammer without a majority.

[SensFan]

So who can you see being scum with Guardian? Sensfan?

I most certainly can't see myself as being Scum with anyone, which is the point I was making.

Note that you didn't answer who you could see being scum with Guardian. How could you hammer in a game where two mislynches=lose for the town without having a good idea about who his scum mate was.

I just don't think you are ignorant enough not to see that placing someone at lynch-1 is a good way to pressure potential scum and his partner into doing something truly scummy.

I would think that looking for scumbuddies is far less important in a game where hitting either Scum wins the game.

Is there anything in particular you expect me to say to the several times you imply I'm not very good at this game?

[SensFan]

other question you chose not to answer:
1. So all three people voting for Guardian called for a hammer, and you assumed that the one other person besides yourself who wasn't voting for Guardian was obviously scum with Guardian?
2. Did it occur to you that random votes don't count as legitimate suspicion?
3. How many times can we mislynch before the town loses?

1. Uhhh...no. I never said that, or anything remotely like it.
2. Yes, it did. It also occured to me that all 3 people voting him, especially jdodge/gurgi were calling for a hammer.
3. Two. I assumed I didn't need to answer this, since it is obvious from looking at the set-up.
4. Right now, no one, since he is apparently Town. I also said in my last post that I didn't, and still don't, see why I should concern myself looking for a scumbuddy, when nailing 1 Scum is enough.

I hammered on page 2 because I did not like Guardian's theory, and all 3 other people voting him appeared to be supporting a lynch.

[SensFan]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

[SensFan]

right before you posted

Whatever.

Unvote, Vote: guardian

I posted

Jdodge, from your perspective, did Guardian commit his scumtell yet?

and then Jdodge posted

Jdodge, from your perspective, did Guardian commit his scumtell yet?

I honestly can barely remember what that tell was. Let me try and remember and I'll get back to you.

5. Why didn't you show

any

curiousity about whether or not it applied to Guardian?
6. Why didn't you ask what it was?
7. Why didn't you ask if I thought it applied?

5. Because I strongly doubted the fact that you actually had some sort of secret scumtell on Guardian.
6. I assumed you would have been more explanitory and asked more than just JDodge, if it was serious and concerned others.
7. See above two answers. I didn't pay much attention to a vague guestion asked to someone other than me.

[SensFan]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

actions speak louder than words: you hammered.

That's bullshit. I am not sure about Gurgi, but JDodge has said several times that he would have hammered in my spot. If 3 people think Guardian should be hammered, why should I be more suspicious that the other two because I happened to not be voting him?

[SensFan]

What games have you completed?
Please list, with links,

all

of them.

Seeing as its a fairly long list that would take me a few minutes to link and everything, can I ask why you are asking me for this?

[SensFan]

What games have you completed?
Please list, with links,

all

of them.

Seeing as its a fairly long list that would take me a few minutes to link and everything, can I ask why you are asking me for this?

So I can read them and potentially build a meta case that either indites or clears you.

Alright. Give me a few minutes, though, since I have about 30 completed games.

[SensFan]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

actions speak louder than words: you hammered.

That's bullshit. I am not sure about Gurgi, but JDodge has said several times that he would have hammered in my spot. If 3 people think Guardian should be hammered, why should I be more suspicious that the other two because I happened to not be voting him?

dude, you hammered on page 2.

How many games have you read that had left the random stage

before]/b] page 3?

Do you know what the word "hyperbole" means?

Are you ignoring that JDodge has said, since the fact, that he would have hammered?
And pretty much

every

game I play leaves the random stage by page 3...

[SensFan]

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

why did you chose to take this literally?

Because I assumed you were equally suspicious of Guardian as the other two that had votes on him, who wanted a hammer.
I am not liking how you seem not to comprehend that JDodge and Gurgi did very much want a hammer.

[SensFan]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

[SensFan]

I am not ignoring what Jdodge has posted. I have a systematic approach towards mafia.

Which post do you interpret as LG calling for a hammer?

How many hammers have you seen before page 3?

Fair enough.

Posts by Gurgi: 2, 4, 8

None, actually.

[SensFan]

Do you know what the word "hyperbole" means?

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

why did you chose to take this literally?

Yes, I am very aware of the term.

I guess maybe it was a mistake to take it seriously/literally, but I felt that you wouldn't say that sort of thing unless you meant it.

[SensFan]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

actions speak louder than words: you hammered.

That's bullshit. I am not sure about Gurgi, but JDodge has said several times that he would have hammered in my spot. If 3 people think Guardian should be hammered, why should I be more suspicious that the other two because I happened to not be voting him?

Why should you be more suspicious? You actually hammered, and with almost 3k game posts you aren't a newbie who can get away with that as an excuse.

I'm not trying to call myself a Newbie at all, you're the one that's been bringing that up. I don't see the difference, though, between three people who all would have hammered if they could, but only one of them being able to.

[SensFan]

Do you know what the word "hyperbole" means?

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

why did you chose to take this literally?

Yes, I am very aware of the term.

I guess maybe it was a mistake to take it seriously/literally, but I felt that you wouldn't say that sort of thing unless you meant it.

Do you habitually take page 1 hyperbole literally?

No, I don't. I would argue that this page 1 was much more informative and serious than the average page 1, though.

[SensFan]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

division of labor time: could someone look through his post history (via his profile page) and identify any games that he left out?

That would take a while. Would a screenshot of my Watched Topics (which contains all games I completed without being replaced) be good enough?

[SensFan]

Have you ever seen JDodge make early game posts that are full of hyperbole before?

I don't believe I have ever seen JDodge play before.

[SensFan]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

[SensFan]

Have you ever seen JDodge make early game posts that are full of hyperbole before?

I don't believe I have ever seen JDodge play before.

could someone scan his games and check if JDodge was in any of them?

Can I ask why you are so quick to assume I am lying about facts that are easily verifiable?

Oh, and it looks (just by counting the WT threads and those I posted) that I might have accidentally ommited a game. I will look closer.

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

[SensFan]

what about Mini 537 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6938 where you were scum and jdodge was town? At least you left that on your list. Jdodge's posts in that game include

Vote: ryan

QUICK, LET'S SEE HOW QUICKLY WE CAN GET HIM TO POST HIS ROLE PM

on page 1

*FairyThatIsPunk is pretending to be in a glass box*

Contribute or die.

and spent every other post in the first 3 pages trolling the fuck our of ryan.

Sorry, I don't remember everyone in every game I've played in. And I don't like the "at least you left that on your list" dig, as it implies I purposefully left off Martyr Mafia, when it is probably the game that most resembles my play thus far, and I was Town.

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

Are you confident that you didn't leave any other games off of your list?

100% so.

[SensFan]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

Don't feel like quoting, but the posts leading up to the hammer where both Gurgi and JDodge asked for a hammer. There was also the fact several of the votes come for legitimate reasons, like his MOS idea.

[SensFan]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

also, from this list, can you point out the games where you attempted gambits?

Probably about half of them. I can take a quick look, though.

[SensFan]

check, I skimmed and thought your role was "suicide bomber" and it said that you won, that meant that you were scum-aligned. good job on vigging successfully.

I think you missed the point, then. There were 2 Scum, 9 Town (including myself). If I bombed Town, I lost. I bombed N0.

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

really? Just how odd does it seem? Do you think I am more likely to make a mistake like that when I am scum or town?

If it was an honest mistake, it has no bearing on your alignment. For someone who has been implying that I am Scum lying about my game history, though, it just seems odd/ironic that you even looked at the game and didn't see my alignment in the first post.

[SensFan]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613 - Gambited. I left the only comfirmed Innocent alive going into endgame.
Newbie 669 - No real gambit here.

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514 - No gambit
Newbie 550 - Lied in my first post of the game to get a read on people
Newbie 585 - Pulled same gambit as above
Newbie 586 - No gambit
Newbie 608 - No gambit
Newbie 638 - No gambit

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537 - Hardly played
Mini 550 - No gambit
Mini 551 - Ridiculous gambit, claimed PR-crippled Cop.
Mini 570 - No gambit
Mini 625 - No gambit

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532 - No gambit
Mini 562 - Gambit of sorts, proxied my vote to start the game
Mini 604 - No gambit, although this game was rather broken due to luck
Mini 610 - Replaced in, no gambit
Mini 632 - No gambit, unless you consider crumbing the fuck out of a role gambitting. this game was also broken due to luck and a scum that outed his buddy after being lynched.
Mini 639 - Replaced in, barely played. No gambit.
Mini 643 - Barely played, no gambit.

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia - No real gambit, I guess. This game seemed broken in favour of the Scum, though.
ehobanohar - Barely played, no gambit (not that the set-up really allows any)
Mafia 79 - Replaced in, no gambit.

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

really? Just how odd does it seem? Do you think I am more likely to make a mistake like that when I am scum or town?

If it was an honest mistake, it has no bearing on your alignment. For someone who has been implying that I am Scum lying about my game history, though, it just seems odd/ironic that you even looked at the game and didn't see my alignment in the first post.

I think it is scummy how you placed emphasis on "VERY".

I was shocked that anyone who has on my case so much for missing a single game out of 24, and forgetting about a player in a game almost a year ago, would mistake my alignment after checking the front post of a game I linked.

[SensFan]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

Don't feel like quoting, but the posts leading up to the hammer where both Gurgi and JDodge asked for a hammer. There was also the fact

several of the votes come for legitimate reasons

, like his MOS idea.

how many is "several"?
What was it about LG's vote or my vote on Guardian that made you think they were serious and legitimate?

I know mine and JDodge's were legitimate. Quite certain Gurgi's was, too.
Gurgi specifically ASKED for a friggin hammer in the post before I did it.

[SensFan]

I honestly won't have a very solid read on his alignment for a couple of days. I looked at his games just hard enough to ask the kind of questions that encouraged him to make statements that could hopefully be proven conclusively true or false, which should go a long way towards proving his alignment. Good scum-hunting requires a lot of research and disciplined thinking combined with fast manipulation of your opponents.

Can I ask which questions you think I might have lied to answer as it pertains to my past games?

[SensFan]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

As someone who a) isn't used to this kind of metaing, and b) wants some sort of explanation, can you at least try to explain what you have asked/done in this game to try and get me to out myself?

[SensFan]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

As someone who a) isn't used to this kind of metaing, and b) wants some sort of explanation, can you at least try to explain what you have asked/done in this game to try and get me to out myself?

your time would be far better served trying to scumhunt if you are actually town, or OMGUS'g me if you are scum.

I want you to explain why you have been asking all this stuff of me, and I want you to commit to exactly what you are looking for before you go looking.

[SensFan]

Well I joined this game to learn how to play mafia better, especially with player types like JDodge's. The best way for me to learn is watch, but I'll try to add more content into the posts that I make when I get on, just for you .

This isn't a Newbie game. Start posting content, not sitting back and watching.

[SensFan]

JDodge: has this level of play become standard? I took a couple of months off before this game because outside of the minivitational it seemed like the nominal skill level was approaching functional retardation. Shouldn't I have bothered coming back?

Sorry to invade on your elitist party, but can I ask that you at least respect the skill that Gurgi, Batt, and I have. I'm sorry that we're apparently not as good as the people you're used to playing with, but I would like to think we're all competent players.

[SensFan]

For example, if you had declared (as town) that you never random vote, and you never have random voted as town, it would pretty damning if you've random voted in 3 or 4 games as scum since you random voted in this game. It wouldn't be lynch-worth evidence in isolation, but you did hammer without good reason on page 2 in this six player game.

He did declare, as town, that he never random votes.

Yay for out of context random thoughts!

[SensFan]

vote: SensFan

I'm done with this.

Vote: Adel

Maybe you are being too elitist or thick to notice it, but JDodge, your fellow awesome, way-better-than-the-rest-of-us-complete-newbs, scumpartner HAS OPENLY SAID HE WOULD HAMMER ON PAGE TWO IF HE COULD HAVE.

[SensFan]

For example, if you had declared (as town) that you never random vote, and you never have random voted as town, it would pretty damning if you've random voted in 3 or 4 games as scum since you random voted in this game. It wouldn't be lynch-worth evidence in isolation, but you did hammer without good reason on page 2 in this six player game.

He did declare, as town, that he never random votes.

Making sure this isn't missed in the page break. This has been taken way the fuck out of context. Furthermore, I can show a ton of examples of where I have "random" voted, and I can only assume Adel, who has apparently read every post I have made 4+ times, has seen these examples I speak of.

[SensFan]

Sure. Gimme a sec to find the games, and I'll even try and find the qupposed quote she is attributing to me, which was said in a Newbie game, possibly even when I was Scum.

[SensFan]

Hey Adel. Mini 643, Time Capsule Mafia. My most recently-completed game as Town.

I RANDOM-VOTED!

Do I need to dig up more examples?

[SensFan]

Mini 604, ooba Mafia. I "random"-voted. I was Town.

Note that I never actually vote randomly, I vote arbitrarily; which is exactly the misrep Adel is trying to use on me.

[SensFan]

Hey Adel. Mini 643, Time Capsule Mafia. My most recently-completed game as Town.

I RANDOM-VOTED!

Do I need to dig up more examples?

Yes, you totally do. I didn't bother to check that one, since it was the last one, and I was out of patience... besides my case against you really depends upon:
1. you hammering on page 2
2. you not being a total idiot

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

Anyone else here the serious backtracking here?

[SensFan]

Mini 604, ooba Mafia. I "random"-voted. I was Town.

Note that I never actually vote randomly, I vote arbitrarily; which is exactly the misrep Adel is trying to use on me.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8464 link to that game.

And I "randomly" voted in that game. Again, I never truly randomly vote. Ever. I "randomly" vote in most of my games, though.

[SensFan]

I opened a ton of pages, scanned them, and then later I got pissy and dropped an under-developed argument prematurely.

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

[SensFan]

Did you also read that I was not an info role and so had nothing else to base my vote on?

[SensFan]

As far as getting a meta read, here is

one

approach:
1. Open up all of his games in tabs, & place games as scum in one window, and games as town in another window. Try to actually sort them correctly.
2. Skim the first three or four pages of each game. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours, and skim them all again.
3. Sort each game to only display all posts by SensFan. Skim the first 20 or so posts from each of those games. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours and do it again.
4. Re-read the first few pages of this game.
5. Sort all of the posts by SensFan in this game.

I've taken a two month break, and I never use a methodology consistently.

MOVE OUT OF THE WAY GUYS, IT KEEPS ON BACKING UP.

[SensFan]

As far as getting a meta read, here is

one

approach:
1. Open up all of his games in tabs, & place games as scum in one window, and games as town in another window. Try to actually sort them correctly.
2. Skim the first three or four pages of each game. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours, and skim them all again.
3. Sort each game to only display all posts by SensFan. Skim the first 20 or so posts from each of those games. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours and do it again.
4. Re-read the first few pages of this game.
5. Sort all of the posts by SensFan in this game.

I've taken a two month break, and I never use a methodology consistently.

MOVE OUT OF THE WAY GUYS, IT KEEPS ON BACKING UP.

nice rhetorical device. Perhaps if you use it another three or four times I'll start thinking it is clever.

Perhaps if you stop backtracking, I'll stop using it.

Seriously, from "Oh well, guess that meta tell was wrong!" to "Yeah, well, now that I messed up, I really don't do my metas that thoroughly..."...

[SensFan]

Wouldn't a genuine townie consider that perhaps I was suffering from townie-tunnel vision and do something to encourage me to unvote, rather than just antagonizing me?

I've kind of refuted everything you've brought up...

Besides, if we're both Town, I haven't hurt anything by voting you.

[SensFan]

Wouldn't a genuine townie consider that perhaps I was suffering from townie-tunnel vision and do something to encourage me to unvote, rather than just antagonizing me?

I've kind of refuted everything you've brought up...

Besides, if we're both Town, I haven't hurt anything by voting you.

There are two living scum players. They could quick-lynch.

I did not put anyone any closer to a lynch than I already was. Therefore, I did not facilitate a quicklynch in the slightest. You, on the other hand, put a vote on me, which DOES allow a quicklynch.

Everything? Who were the three players who were seriously and literally pushing for a page-2 hammer that you referred to time and time again?

Jdodge, Gurgi, Adel. You know, the three people that were voting Guardian...

Where is the logical thought process that explains why you hammered on page 2 based off of a random bullshit wagon?

Because you are VERY CLEARLY the only one who considers it to be random OR bullshit, and in the former case, maybe you should have, you know, UNVOTED?

[SensFan]

You don't fucking hammer on page 2 for a random bullshit wagon.

You don't stay on a wagon you think is "random bullshit" if no one else does.

[SensFan]

Note that whenever asked to back up his claims, Sens goes off on a tangent.

Really? Because I very clearly gave 2 examples off me "random" voting as Town, and its Adel that has since backed up.

[SensFan]

I agree with Adel - if Sens is town, neither of us have any business playing anymore. This game is supposed to be made up of the cream of the crop so to speak, and the one person who I'd consider to be more of a newbie (Batt) is doing eons above what two of the people I'd consider fairly experienced (Flimsy + Sens) are doing, IF by some obscene stretch of the imagination they are town.

After what I've seen in this game, I will never be playing another game with either of you anyways, regardless of your alignment.

[SensFan]

Note that whenever asked to back up his claims, Sens goes off on a tangent.

Really? Because I very clearly gave 2 examples off me "random" voting as Town, and its Adel that has since backed up.

And where the fuck are the examples of "OH I ALWAYS ASK BEFORE I HAMMER A DUR DE HUR DE HUR" that I asked for ages ago?

I could probably dig them up, but unless I'm asked to by Batt, I'm not going to bother.

[SensFan]

Note that whenever asked to back up his claims, Sens goes off on a tangent.

Really? Because I very clearly gave 2 examples off me "random" voting as Town, and its Adel that has since backed up.

And where the fuck are the examples of "OH I ALWAYS ASK BEFORE I HAMMER A DUR DE HUR DE HUR" that I asked for ages ago?

I could probably dig them up, but unless I'm asked to by Batt, I'm not going to bother.

BEEP BEEP BEEP.

Not at all. If Batt is Scum, I lose, and won't waste my time digging up quotes that Adel has read 4-5 times and chose not to mention. If he is Town, he can ask me anything, and I will oblidge.

[SensFan]

Note that whenever asked to back up his claims, Sens goes off on a tangent.

Really? Because I very clearly gave 2 examples off me "random" voting as Town, and its Adel that has since backed up.

And where the fuck are the examples of "OH I ALWAYS ASK BEFORE I HAMMER A DUR DE HUR DE HUR" that I asked for ages ago?

I could probably dig them up, but unless I'm asked to by Batt, I'm not going to bother.

BEEP BEEP BEEP.

Not at all. If Batt is Scum, I lose, and won't waste my time digging up quotes that Adel has read 4-5 times and chose not to mention. If he is Town, he can ask me anything, and I will oblidge.

BEEEP BEEEP BEEEP

Mind pointing out where I am doing ANY backtracking whatsoever?

[SensFan]

Hey there Sens! Explain how what you're doing now is any different from what Adel did then.

You know why you won't give examples? Because they don't exist. Because you made a brash claim and you're either too fucking hard-headed to admit that you were wrong or trying to hide the fact that you were wrong because you're either scum or too much of a goddamn pussy to actually say so.

Which is it?

Adel claimed I never random vote as Town, despite having supposedly read the early parts of all my games, in which I have random voted SEVERAL times. She votes me for this. I call her on it, she immediately claims the meta read was weak and gives OTHER reasons for voting me. Then Gurgi asks her about her INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO META, and she then claims she doesn't actually meta that way.

Then there's me who said I do not hammer if there is not majority support. I linked every single goddamn game I have played in, classified by type and alignment. If you want to go and find the examples that are out there where I ask for a concensus or that I do not hammer until everyone on the wagon has chimed it, go ahead. I'm not going to waste my time combing through my games when it won't sway you or Adel anyways, and I don't know if Batt will bother doing anything beside laugh that there are 2 people in hammering-range and he is Scum. If he asks me, I will gladly go out and find the examples that are out there. In the mean time, feel free.

[SensFan]

and

I don't know

if Batt will bother

doing anything beside laugh that there are 2 people in hammering-range and he is Scum.

ITP Sens pretty clearly states that he thinks - no, KNOWS - Batt is scum, and that Adel is town (logical basis based on the context of the post).

Flimsy, pull your head out of your goddamn ass and see the light already.

Extra emphasis added.

And will me giving you examples cause you do rethink your vote?

[SensFan]

and

I don't know

if Batt will bother

doing anything beside laugh that there are 2 people in hammering-range

and he is Scum.

ITP Sens pretty clearly states that he thinks - no, KNOWS - Batt is scum, and that Adel is town (logical basis based on the context of the post).

Flimsy, pull your head out of your goddamn ass and see the light already.

Extra emphasis added.

And will me giving you examples cause you do rethink your vote?

Maybe. Why is this relevant?

"I don't know if X and Y and Z" does NOT mean "I don't know X, but know Y and Z".

Because I will not spend time looking for examples if it will serve literally no purpose. I want confirmation that you will unvote if I can find you examples.

[SensFan]

Yes, my supreme Master!

[SensFan]

AA Mafia (610). Mechanic in place where only half the Town (Jurors) could vote.

"We went over this yesterday. Individual Jurors cannot be given the privilege to veto any lynches they disagree with. We need to force them to vote for whoever the majority wants lynched, even if they disagree with the lynch. Heck, I would expect you, as a Juror, to hammer your Mason partner, if the majority of the Town wanted him lynched."

Shows pretty clearly, I think, that I value the majority over the individual. Want me to look for more?

[SensFan]

I want one as scum too, to prove the "regardless of alignment" bit of your claim.

Sure, I'll try. I hope you realize, though, that you basically just said "Alright, so go and explain to me why this is not a town tell for you."

[SensFan]

"Yeah, I am willing to drop the hammer on K7. Anyone have anything else they want to say today?"

Mafia 79 - Amish Mafia.

Good enough?

[SensFan]

Really? Doesn't my question leave plenty of room for anyone who does NOT support the hammer to say so, and unvote?

[SensFan]

Alright, I'll keep looking. A ridiculous number of my scum games have had my posts not even containing the word "hammer", though...

[SensFan]

A quick check shows that I have hammered exactly once as Scum, and that was immediately after a Doc claim, designed to hammer him BEFORE anyone could unvote.

Still not sure how "Anyone have anything they want to say?" does not include "Anyone object to the lynch?"

[SensFan]

Note that I will have very little access tomorrow for sure, and most of the weekend.

[SensFan]

Sens, you made a fatal error in judgment. You underestimated the ferocity with which the people "calling for the hammer" would come down on you with.

Sorry, but I'm really don't know what you're talking about. Can you explain it a little better?

[SensFan]

I did not realize that you calling for my lynch was in jest.

Gee, what do you know?

[SensFan]

Good job Adel, Batt, Jdodge, I look forward to playing with you again.

Can I ask if this means you have no intentions of playing with me again?

[SensFan]

SensFan: why did you think that hammering Guardian was a good idea?

]
If I can dig up the AIM log, I will. Gurgi, I think posting it only serves to futher discussion here, so if you could, that'd be great.

Anyways, with 3 people (what it appeared to be, Adel, although I know JDodge and Guaradian were legit) calling for a hammer, it seemed ideal. I still think your whole case against me was shit, and I don't understand why I was voted by Batt. I have just as much tendency to take risks as Town, if not more, than when I'm Scum.

On the insults note, I appreciate the apology. Personally, though, I do not feel that insults should be a part of the game, and I definatively react like this to them regardless of my alignment. If this game hadn't been a 2-3 endgame, I likely would have replaced out.

[SensFan]

I still think your whole case against me was shit, and I don't understand why I was voted by Batt.

do you mind if I sig this?

Is the intention to make me look bad? If not, go ahead.

[SensFan]

Good job Adel, Batt, Jdodge, I look forward to playing with you again.

Can I ask if this means you have no intentions of playing with me again?

Nope -- I look forward to playing with you too.

Although I might not play again anytime soon. This game reminded me why I can get very frustrated by mafia.

Yeah, sorry about the quickhammer on you, by the way. I hope you now realize it was nothing personal, and done for tactical reasons, and not because I dislike you or thought a hammer was at all justified.

[SensFan]

It's rather unforgiving to the scum, one mistake is game over, but the town can screw up once without penalty.

That compensates for the natural advantage the scum gain from nightlessness,

especially

when they can coordinate unlimitedly during the day.

What if you add a Townie, remove nightless, and remove daytalk?

[SensFan]

In the past, the same players were allowed to replay Texas Justice because of a short game -- I would be interested in trying that here, possibly.

I agree with this product.

[SensFan]

In the past, the same players were allowed to replay Texas Justice because of a short game -- I would be interested in trying that here, possibly.

I agree with this product.

Wait does this mean the same players want to retry this game?

I would be very interested.

[SensFan]

I sent the mod a PM in the matter. If everyone still wants to play and he doesn't mind modding this again I think it would be a good test. I suggest the mod send a PM to anyone who played and if one person says they can't just look for a replacement. Heck I may join the next one if someone isn't interested.

Shouldn't modding this game go to the next mod on the list?

[SensFan]

PJ?

[SensFan]

So's Glork...

[SensFan]

Much as I had my disagreements with Adel, I lose a fair bit of interest if she leaves.

[SensFan]

If Batt + 1 more is interested then I am probably still OK, assuming we don't lose more than Adel.

Yeah, same. I really would want the 'replacement' to be a non-Newb, though.