Large Normal 240: Baileyposting [game over]

[Crescent]

Meow.

I don't know exactly why is he a

cat hater

?

[Crescent]

Well, you do seem to be rather flammable?

[Crescent]

Oh I agree the whole Godfather thing feels totally arbitrary in the face of the GS/Doctor interaction.

[Crescent]

When Normal disallowed Godfather, so you just replace Cop with Gunsmith.

What strikes me as odd is it being public rather than just known to the gunsmith themself.

We don't have any actual confirmation a gunsmith exists. We only have confirmation at least one role that counters it does.

Also, Owen's first post is an exact replica of his first post in 2273, where he was scum, and it was Vivax's first game. Vivax being triggered by it gives me town vibes.

[Crescent]

I have researched Owen's past games, and have come to the conclusion I expected. Owen consistently opens with "Hello Everyone" and a vote and it is

strictly NAI

.

...But I still town read Vivax for that snap reaction.

[Crescent]

When Normal disallowed Godfather, so you just replace Cop with Gunsmith.

What strikes me as odd is it being public rather than just known to the gunsmith themself.

We don't have any actual confirmation a gunsmith exists. We only have confirmation at least one role that counters it does.

Also, Owen's first post is an exact replica of his first post in 2273, where he was scum, and it was Vivax's first game. Vivax being triggered by it gives me town vibes.

The only roles that would interact with it are GS, vigi, role jnvestigators (rolecop and follower), and sk afaik.

The fact it is public instead of just being informed makes me think 2 or more exist.

Do you think Vivax has a non-joking read based off of that?

I think it's far more likely it was a new player being triggered by something, and then going back to figure out exactly what triggered them. The fact that he put the work in after the vote clearly suggests it is not a joke. I also don't see this as something he pounces on as scum, because it becomes a self-defeating argument the moment it's pointed out he does it as town. This isn't the kind of stand newbie scum make.

I see it as a genuine town reaction from someone in their second game.

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There are 10 guns in the game.

..Wait, wut.

[Crescent]

Greetings!

Hello Everyone.

No witty entrance post?

Enchant

confscum.

VOTE: Enchant

Reading more carefully, you should be able to figure out that was a witty entrance post.

VOTE: Greeting

I'm not seeing it.

Enchant was pretty obviously mocking the thing going on between Vivax and Owen. It's clear enough even I figured out the intent

[Crescent]

Hi I'm Daisy

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can we not post a VC for every single vote please... if you do it, please just throw it in a spoiler, but spamming "unnoficial" VCs for every single vote is not appreciated... you literally posted 3 on 1 page... and no one changed votes in the span of you posting them

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

This feels like something scum could easily feign annoyance over for the sake of an early vote to look busy.

can we not post a VC for every single vote please... if you do it, please just throw it in a spoiler, but spamming "unnoficial" VCs for every single vote is not appreciated... you literally posted 3 on 1 page... and no one changed votes in the span of you posting them

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

This feels like something scum could easily feign annoyance over for the sake of an early vote to look busy.

Feign annoyance implies it wasn't starting to get annoying. Three giant empty walls of text are pretty annoying.

Like why even include the 0s? The posts could be 1/3 the length they are and still provide the same result.

Feels like a "shut up" vote from Andante and it's NAI to me. It feels like something scum could easily feign a reaction to look busy.

[Crescent]

If I never respond you remain stuck in limbo?

Andante a tad too emotional about the VC, but meh.

Andante seems annoyed, not scummy.

[Crescent]

My vote should have been on bugspray btw.

Actually I'd go so far as to say offended by how weak that shade was.

[Crescent]

...I did not quote a post. I don't get why random posts occasionally jump in my responses.

[Crescent]

I am prone to taking offense to dumbass reasons for shading me, yes.

Anyways, I've never heard of a gladiator-type role whose target could choose whether to accept or refuse, nor one with a time limit.

Assuming this is real for a moment, why would you even use it this early?

[Crescent]

It never looked real, but I still wanted to ask just in case. It's the way I'm wired.

Apparently all I actually had to do was go to the wiki though. I've been under the impression that large normals were looser than minis with role bans, but the ban lists seem mostly the same outside of the possibility of SK or two scumteams.

Anyways Imma curl up with my kitty and get to bed.

[Crescent]

Two points to make. To be direct: I didn't read much into Andante there, but Malcolm deciding to shade it is

really

weak for someone who posted just 3 times, and the reason he gave for said shade could easily apply to him.

Vivax now has placed as many votes as he did the entire first day in 2273, and it's kinda jarring. I want to hear what Vivax himself has to say about this.

[Crescent]

At some point someone might read Owens posts with the intent to give them a read or point out their uselesness, anyhow. Maybe in two days. Or he’ll get vigged N1 again and flip red. One could hope.

Owen in that past game spent basically all day 1 on Corwin, but he does feel a little more proactive here - It felt before like he kinda let other people try to make the actual arguments instead of making them himself. I don't read a lot into it in either direction yet.

Lord I can't seem to stay awake today. It's like that perfect mix of heat and humidity that keeps making me pass out.

[Crescent]

I am scum don’t u dare call me town u dirty….w/e u are

I don't believe you and will call you town for bad reasons.

If MalcolmTucker is mafia and pinged m!Andante then #69 explains the additional annoyance in the tone from her part.
Let's say it's a possible timeline.

ok, why are you talking as if I'm flipped scum? these few posts just read weird to me? it's just like, I don't even get it "we need andante flip first" "maf!anante" like what??

It's an information avenue for a future point to look back to in case you flip mafia. Not relevant right now except as a diary for my thoughts, need folks who signed up to try and find mafia.

I have no idea where this logic is even going. I don't see how her getting mad somehow points to them being potentially scum together.

[Crescent]

Why does it seem more likely?

Because the alternative is you got spooked by "hello everyone".

Tell me what his post looks like to you and I’ll answer.

Suspicious attempt at saying "don't expect much from me".

The point is that I did.
Fine, have it your way if you want to withhold information.

VOTE: UNOwen

Are you interpreting their post as withholding information? It looks to me like they answered both of your questions. I'm not sure what your complaint is here.

No, Owen didn’t post an opinion on geraintms entrance. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I am mostly interpreting his posts as uncooperativeness because he’s salty he got scumread as mafia traitor and shot N1 in last game. So now he spends the remainder of his time in this game venting like that. I’m not even sure that he’s mafia.

This is kind of a gross misinterpretation of 2273. The scumreads on Owen were more about doing absolutely nothing, and there were 3 people up for vote on day. He was behind both Corwin and George in popularity, and the

only

reason he got vigged was his literal scumhammer out of nowhere on George immediately after his Detective claim.

[Crescent]

Also, on a Gera note, pay attention to how Gera holds up over time. The entrance is weak, but also kinda whatever. Gera as scum in a game of 13 basically could not hold up for an entire game. By the time we were in day 3, he had regressed to near-total uselessness.

[Crescent]

Does anyone else agree with Vivax's interpretation? This is a strange hill for him to choose to die on. I think it's a little towny to do so, though. Town often have a lot of pride in their own view of things.

The vibe I'm getting is that he's trying too hard to make a case out of it because he wants it to be right.

[Crescent]

Again, Owen was not "caught". He made a blatant scumhammer as mafia-aligned and was probably planning to drag out day 2 to slow down the town. Once he flips aligned, you don't even get a lotta information about it. His plan obviously didn't include being vigged.

Owen knew exactly what he was doing with that hammer. This argument that he'd be "enraged" is dumb.

[Crescent]

So much of Fred's ISO is nonsense. Virtually none of it is actual content and he follows a naked vote on Owen with... Some really awkward looking shade. Third highest post count in the game right now and all I can really say about him is "he exists".

[Crescent]

Right now, I think that the series of four posts starting with 188 are the most likely thing to come from scum that I've seen so far. Fredrick A Campbell inserts himself into the main conflict of the game, Vivax vs UNOwen, and tries to add fuel to the fire of one of the sides. The fact that I believe the criticism is inaccurate (UNOwen was referring to post 138, which Fredrick himself has ignored) makes me think it's even more likely that it was a made up reason to join what looks to me like a T/T conflict and encourage it to continue.

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

Oh also I liked this guy before but I like him more now since I think this post is accurate.

[Crescent]

If there's anyone in this pile I townlean, it's Prince. I also think there's merit to his vote on Fred, who did look like he was weaving a narrative specifically to fan the fire of Vivax/Owen.

There's not a single good reason to TR Fred that I can see so far. His behavior started unhelpful, then turned scummy. Meg's post feels like they are completely ignoring the fact that the one actual vote that came on him in that span was for a clearly alignment related reason.

[Crescent]

The counterpoint is if Fred is scum it likely means Prince (who voted him), Owen (who he made an awful vote/shade on), and Andante (who he triggered) are all likely town. Owen and Andante would have a natural reason to join in based on the actions Fred has already committed. Andante is mad he exists, and Owen could easily be town who was scumpinged by such a bad argument. The reasoning that scum must be shading Fred is forced and the reasons for voting Andante are weak.

[Crescent]

That's if he flips town. Right now I don't think he will.

The argument is forcing the presupposition that scum must be shading him, when I'm the only one in that 4 pack without a previously established reason to have done so.

Sometimes it's just 4 town members shading a scum. I see no reason to automatically assume there is scum based on the specific people involved.

[Crescent]

I have no read on Andante because I can see myself acting the exact same way she has. I tend to react harshly when I'm getting shaded for godawful reasons, myself, and the early shade on her was just that.

She seems vindictive, not scummy. I don't know of vindictiveness is a scum trait of hers. What she's doing with Fred already reminds me of how NM's shitposting triggered me in 2273. My entire game was thrown off just because of his existence.

[Crescent]

For the uninformed, the only thing I actually

wanted

to do most of the game was murder NM to remove him from the game.

I even made a promise that I would first post vote him and never remove it until he or I are dead if I ever get stuck in a game with him again. It's a promise i intend to keep.

[Crescent]

Not to mention Crescent has been happily interjecting in the defense of Owen and Prince most of the time in this game, but seems hesitant to do so with Andante. I wonder why.

Deer, meet headlights.

Hesitant? I've called the votes on her weak and for forced reasoning.

I stand by it.

[Crescent]

I don't even understand how this freaking makes me maf

I have yet to see any remotely compelling argument that it does.

[Crescent]

and like, no one else has a major issue with how Fred started off with THREE BACK TO BACK VCs like, hello?? how is no one else seeing this as Fred is spamming just to spam?

To be frank my issue with Fred is more how awful his shade on Owen looked. The early fakespew is kinda whatever at this point. He mostly stopped after getting yelled at.

[Crescent]

I seem to be like the only one here wanting to play the game (a few others too, but majority doesn't want to do anything) so you know what, if voting me is the solution... go for it. I'm stepping away, and hopefully I'm not voted out by the time I'm back, but if I am? whatever

I would agree with the sentiment that there's already been too much shitposting. The Chess stuff was particularly noxious and I'm glad that got curbed quickly.

[Crescent]

The counterpoint is if Fred is scum it likely means Prince (who voted him), Owen (who he made an awful vote/shade on), and Andante (who he triggered) are all likely town. Owen and Andante would have a natural reason to join in based on the actions Fred has already committed. Andante is mad he exists, and Owen could easily be town who was scumpinged by such a bad argument. The reasoning that scum must be shading Fred is forced and the reasons for voting Andante are weak.

im voting fred, do i not get a read too?

They were specifically pointing at the 4 people in that cluster, and you weren't in that cluster. Gonna be honest, I kinda totally forgot about you. I wouldn't say you've done anything to ping me in any specific way yet. Your vote's probably in a good place though.

Anyways, watching Andante emotionally implode as she's pressured for awful reasons feels like I'm looking in a mirror to when I'm under consistent pressure for awful reasons. It's like a "So this is what it looks like when I get emotional in a mafia game" moment.

Gut says she's a VT.

[Crescent]

Prince is probably town regardless of Fred's alignment.

Owen and Gera are probably town if Fred is scum. My intel so far on Gera is he doesn't bus, though his ISO is... Super lacking. I'd look at Gera if Fred is town, though. Owen is on pace to do way more here than he did in 2273.

I'm seeing so much of myself in her and the way you especially are treating her right now that I'm being psychologically triggered by it.

[Crescent]

I seem to have blanked out on some of what happened yesterday. Wondering if I actually have some form of PTSD related to my first community. Neat.

Post #332 is good to know. I'll take a glance when I'm at computer later. Think I'm going to catch up through ISOs instead of revisiting that mess. Meg seems to be the focal point this page so I'll start there.

[Crescent]

Oh there were quite literally 0 posts I hadn't read either before or on this page.

..Fancypants next.

Vote on Malcom is for #261 which is.. Not a Malcolm post that scumpinged me. Comes off as arrogant like the rest of that train did, not scummy. Why did this post draw your vote?

Has now called me, Enchant, Meg, and Fred town for... No apparent reason other than "vibes" or "tone" for any of us. Do you have any play-based reasons you can point to? It feels like you're taking a bunch of simple stances without backing any of them up.

Like my tonal read on Andante was null, but I thought the wagon was awful because I thought the reasons for it were awful. What do you think of the actual reasons and votes on Meg?

[Crescent]

Fred's ISO kinda just makes me want to punch him, but that just appears to be his thing. "Neat."

I'd like to hear some reasoning behind why people are townreading Enchant, because I feel like they've gotten a few random casual town reads and this ISO is almost void of actual content.

Malcolm's new stuff is just post #321.. Which just leads me right into Gera's ISO.

I find it confusing that he votes for absolutely no reason, and later calls attention to the fact that he voted for no given reason... Then shades Enchant for doing the same thing with essentially no justification, but remains on Fred anyway for.. No justification. I want him to walk me through his thought process here.

[Crescent]

Pooky's ISO is bad.

Votes Meg without a reason.
Tunnels Meg without a reason.
Pressures Fred towards Meg without a reason.

This is the only content in this ISO and it feels like fake scumhunting.

Fire's only effective content is.. Hopping on Meg for no reason with Pooky. Ok yeah, this train is bad, but it's not for any tonal reasons. These votes have no explanation at all.

Owen post #333 is

bad

. Another blank vote on Meg and another person calling Enchant town in one sitting, in his only post in nearly 24 hours.

Greeting.... Another vote on Meg.. Another player that provides no reason for voting Meg. #177 seems like it's setting up a bad pretext to vote them, and the vote itself just comes out of nowhere.

Three straight ISOs with bad votes on the same player? Yeah I'm not touching this train.

[Crescent]

What do you think of the actual reasons and votes on Meg?

There are reasons? I did genuinely didn't see anything that looked like a case. I may have missed it, did 10 pages of catch up today.

Yeah as my later ISOing made it very clear.. There are none.

But why not just say that before? "Tonal town read" is kind of a nothing response.

[Crescent]

Lowell is another vote on Meg for... Honestly the only thing even resembling a reason so far, and it's a reason that's super easy to fake. He says the Fred wagon is ok... For absolutely no reason. It's the only time "Fred" even appears in his ISO.

I liked Prince's vote on Fred yesterday, but him having done absolutely nothing since erodes the town vibe I got from it a little. Bugspray is basically a reskinned NM who refuses to associate with NM. Oh joy. Also hasn't even posted in a day. Lee has... Two posts. They were prodded in day 1 of 2272, but this slot has kinda been a total deadzone. Guess we'll just see if it gets inactive-replaced or something.

I mean, if you talk about a train that probably has scum on it... Meg is at 5 votes, and 4 of the voters didn't even attempt to justify theor votes. This is so much different from when people were giving actual justifications to suspect Fred. There's so much smoke here, but there's absolutely no fire.

[Crescent]

And yes I totally avoided Vivax and Andante's ISOs because I do not want to deal with that right now.

[Crescent]

too much information

Fred's ISO kinda just makes me want to punch him, but that just appears to be his thing. "Neat."

I'd like to hear some reasoning behind why people are townreading Enchant, because I feel like they've gotten a few random casual town reads and this ISO is almost void of actual content.

Malcolm's new stuff is just post #321.. Which just leads me right into Gera's ISO.

I find it confusing that he votes for absolutely no reason, and later calls attention to the fact that he voted for no given reason... Then shades Enchant for doing the same thing with essentially no justification, but remains on Fred anyway for.. No justification. I want him to walk me through his thought process here.

I had a reason

...Which was?

[Crescent]

Pooky has done essentially nothing but shitpost and naked vote Meg. Gera said he has a reason for voting Fred (his only real content) but never actually gave the reason even when asked. Why are these guys town reads?

Like Vivax I get, but those two?

[Crescent]

if mafia have no guns, how do they perform kills. Knives are for serial killers and clubs are for baseball players. Makes you think

The role "Mafia Knife-Thrower" was said as a joke, then like a year later appeared in exactly 1 game ever against a Town Gunsmith for the wtfs. It threw knives aka no need for guns.

Gunsmith where I come from is a rare role to see to begin with~

[Crescent]

Speaking of Prince, he has notably fallen off a cliff since his vote on Fred. He has

two

posts since then in almost 48 hours. Any good vibes that vote made me feel are all but gone. When he made it, he was feeling proactive. Now he just feels lazy.

Owen still has given zero explanation for his Meg vote (a common theme in this game apparently), and he made it over 24 hours ago. The post before that Meg vote was shading Fred. How does this connect?

Pressuring either of these two is fine.

[Crescent]

Spoiler: post 442

Speaking of Prince, he has notably fallen off a cliff since his vote on Fred. He has

two

posts since then in almost 48 hours. Any good vibes that vote made me feel are all but gone. When he made it, he was feeling proactive. Now he just feels lazy.

Owen still has given zero explanation for his Meg vote (a common theme in this game apparently), and he made it over 24 hours ago. The post before that Meg vote was shading Fred. How does this connect?

Pressuring either of these two is fine.

Don't just say it, do it.

Your vote is nowhere.

Yep, and that is normal for me. The last time I was in a game this size, it lasted 4 days, and I placed 4 votes all game. It shoulda been 2, but town suddenly did dumb things at the end of both day 2 and day 3, and I placed my vote as a course-correction. I immediately led the day 4 vote against the guy my POE had strongly pegged as the last scum.

Then again... I'm not used to playing games where you actually have to reach a majority to vote someone off. Actually seeing a hammer with 17 players in the game was very unlikely. Usually whoever's voted off day 1 wouldn't end any higher than like, 6 votes, unless they did something awful. It's possible I may need to revisit my general stance towards voting in large games in this community where the necessary vote count is so high.

[Crescent]

On an unrelated game note, I've been cleared to return back to work effective Monday.

[Crescent]

There's one thing Meg has done that still bothers me, personally, but it's good to see some people actually giving some reasons for their votes.

Post #224 is what kicked off the Andante train, which was a bad train for basically no reason. Meg overplays how much pressure Fred is actually under, and underplays that most of the people involved actually had reasons. If more people in that line had placed votes, the logic wouldn't feel so forced.

Speaking of feeling "forced", that Lowell vote on Prince. Votes Fred, disappears for 27 hours, and as soon as Prince unvotes Fred, he immediately pops back on to jump on Prince. Like, Fire is right that it kinda does read like a joke, even though it doesn't feel like one.

[Crescent]

Scum: MalcolmTucker (non-commital scum) /Bugspray (Lurking scum)/Geraintm(Newb-scum) /PookyTheMagicalBear(Experienced scum who's sad they rolled scum)


Maybe's: Firebringger/Dwlee99/Lowell

This is the post I use to gloat endgame.
Will defend these opinions to the death, come at me.

these don't sound too bad tbh

Gera isn't a newbie and feels decidedly Gera so far. I should probably do a comparative ISO on him eventually because Clidd was right when he did it in late day 1 in 2273. He vibed more with the scumgame examples than the towngame examples.

[Crescent]

Then again... I'm not used to playing games where you actually have to reach a majority to vote someone off. Actually seeing a hammer with 17 players in the game was very unlikely. Usually whoever's voted off day 1 wouldn't end any higher than like, 6 votes, unless they did something awful. It's possible I may need to revisit my general stance towards voting in large games in this community where the necessary vote count is so high.

Is this true? Explains a lot about your play style which rubs me up so much. Always with comments and thoughts but never backing it up with any actual action.

Oh and speaking of Gera.. What would even the point of lying about this? Enough people know where I came from, and almost no game there ever requires a majority. I specifically had no vote down on days 2 and 3 of that game for the purposes of course correction if necessary. People are often votehappy and early hammers are a thing. People on day 2 in that game randomly decided to form a mini wagon on someone very late in the day when we had 99% likely scum sitting there. My vote was on said scum with a "no thank you" less than a minute later. They did the same thing on day 3 with suddenly wagoning the wrong option late and I shut that down too.

But that ultimately doesn't really work as a playstyle when we actually need a full 9 votes to kill someone. Sudden late counterwagons to a guy on 6-7 aren't really going to be much of a thing in this format.

[Crescent]

...Which ultimately leads me to wonder how to go about using my vote because I haven't been the kind of player who casually throws it around in years. I find I generally don't need it to provide pressure and make people answer questions... But the difference between 17 and 13 is significant when you need majority.

(For the record, I only placed 3 votes in 5 days in my last scumgame, so being a low voter is totally NAI for me. It would've been 4, but town was stupid and early hammered on day 2.)

...Ok enough spamming self-meta

[Crescent]

Scum: MalcolmTucker (non-commital scum) /Bugspray (Lurking scum)/Geraintm(Newb-scum) /PookyTheMagicalBear(Experienced scum who's sad they rolled scum)


Maybe's: Firebringger/Dwlee99/Lowell

This is the post I use to gloat endgame.
Will defend these opinions to the death, come at me.

you need to come up with better epithets for the scum team

Bugspray (NM mk. 2)

[Crescent]

Why no one vote Enchant

You're the only one calling them scum and you have like 5 posts.

[Crescent]

Why no one vote Enchant

You're the only one calling them scum and you have like 5 posts.

Okay true but I think I pointed out something worth considering

Except like 5 other people think Enchant is town for it and I'm null because I don't know Enchant.

Like you actually have to be here making a consistent argument for that argument to matter.

[Crescent]

Also I have a proposition for DWLee:

Talk about anything that isn't a single post by Enchant.

[Crescent]

I didn't even notice that Meg's postcount per day has dropped to the level of Lowell and Bugspray until now. Meg has 3 posts in the last 44 hours. The lurker comment is on point.

[Crescent]

Lowell called Prince, Fred, and Meg scum in #357, and has now cycled a vote on each of them. At the very least, it's consistent.

[Crescent]

Since Meg hasn't answered still, the reason I'm asking about his opinion on the wagon is that I'd expect someone who had the reaction they had to the mini pileup on Fred would also show a bit of concern about scum being involved in the almost completely unexplained five vote wagon against himself. Responding to it by ignoring the votes and instead accusing FancyPants of tmi for calling it a bad wagon doesn't seem consistent. To me it looks like Meg couldn't tell whether the wagon was a bluff or not and didn't want to risk looking scummy by overreacting.

I think Meg is at like 7 votes already by the way let's be careful.

The interesting thing is I don't really think there was anything to respond to at first, as basically no one was giving a reason to be voting him in the first place, and the train looked godawful. The wagon though has gradually become more "serious" in feel for a while now - As actual arguments have been popping up. Like the only thing Meg's responded to recently is an immediate response to my pointing out they only had 3 posts in 44 hours. Why is that the thing Meg bothered to focus on?

I'm not convinced this is scum, but the Andante vote was bad and I don't see anything that really seems defensible in this ISO. I need to see more that resembles content here. Like, the most recent post speaks of a "few players I consider strongly town", but they haven't provided fresh reads in 3 days aside from telling Lee they don't think Enchant is scum.

Also Meg's vote on Fancypants is kinda like DWLee's vote on Enchant. It's just sitting there without anything additional being added onto it, and no reason to actually follow it.

Speaking of Lee though, I asked Lee to talk about anything except for that one post by Enchant and they.... Just... Left?

[Crescent]

i think it's wild that meg has yet to express any suspicion of me for pushing on meg when I have done absolutely 0 sorting of meg's slot and I think if meg was town they would at least think why the hell is pooky just shit tunneling me and doing nothing MB pooky is scum!?!?!? but instead Meg is like "this is fine" which feels more like a caught scum reaction

You've been one of the leading reasons why I've felt something off about the Meg train so this checks out.

[Crescent]

MegAzumarill [7]: PookyTheMagicalBear, Greeting, Firebringer, UNOwen, Gera, Lowell, Prince

Yep I was right this is at 7. Let's be careful here.

[Crescent]

Decent chance we'll find exactly one scum in those last 3 votes regardless of Meg's alignment. Probably no more than one other on top of that.

1 or 2 most likely, but that's what law of averages would say anyway.

[Crescent]

Ok #584/585 from Enchant reads like town who half-doesn't give a shit and voted Bugspray entirely for the funsies.

[Crescent]

Unsure looks like he specifically voted for the counterwagon with the most votes. Pooky tells him to feel free to start his own and he just jumps right on the leading one after shading basically everyone on Meg. There doesn't seem to be any other logic behind that Bugspray vote, and it kinda feels like cheap way to start off with content. I think the next 24 hours could be pretty telling on this replacement.

I actually don't think Bugspray's specific criticism of the vote is accurate though. Guy was in the game for 28 minutes and pretty blatantly voted for the Meg counterwagon.

[Crescent]

I will say though there's a decent likelihood that Bugspray is town if Meg is scum because this counterwagon feels kinda weak and is on arguably the easiest target in the game.

[Crescent]

Crescent do you townread bugs?

I have a better question for you:

Why would

anyone

town read Bugs? He's basically a waste of a player slot - But that also makes him a super easy counter train. There's both nothing to attack nor defend him with, and Fred was way too wordy in voting him for my liking.

I'm already not against killing him on principle, but that doesn't happen with 8 days left on day 1.

[Crescent]

Anyways, there is one counterwagon I would definitely approve of right now, and that person currently has 0 votes.

Lee was an early low poster for much of 2272 sure, but there was way more aggression than this. Lee placed 6 different votes in like, the first 300 posts, and was way more responsive in general. They voiced a variety of reads as things were happening.

All Lee's done this game is sit there with a lazy vote on Enchant over a single post, and made almost their entire game revolve around that one post. They don't seem to even be factoring in that basically everyone else to comment on that one post thinks it's more likely to come from Town Enchant. The play has been super lazy and coasty, and has almost completely avoided every major wagon. This is exactly one passive comment on Meg in the entire ISO, in the most recent post. There is nothing on Fred at all.

Much higher chance of actually finding scum here than on Bugspray, who comes off only as a lazy countertrain and feels like at best a 50/50.

[Crescent]

Oh and just compare the ISOs. It's hit the point where I feel like the difference in play kinda can't look any more obvious.

[Crescent]

Because it's a completely useless player slot. No one will miss it once it's gone, regardless of the flip. I was against voting NM off early in 2273 for the same reasons, even with how obviously I wanted it.

I feel like Bugspray is just straight up taking a blind shot that he's scum and we get basically nothing out of it if he flips town. It would've been the same if we'd flipped NM day 1in 2273.

And Lee isn't an easy target, Lee is someone who's actively coasting through the game in a way that completely goes against a recent towngame I played with them. Lee has gone mostly unnoticed because coasting is harder to catch than outright useless.

[Crescent]

Lee isn't scum, I don't think. They don't seem to care much about keeping up appearances. The difference is probably simply that this isn't a very interesting game so far.

2272 was referred to as a low energy/low post count game during day 1, though I don't remember who said it

If they have an explanation for this drastic difference in play, I'd lie to hear it.

[Crescent]

oh I like Fredrick A Campbell

Fred is my #1 scumread in the game on a Meg scumflip.

The moment Fred got momentum, Meg immediately blew that momentum up, and turned it into a bad train on Andante. Fred was avoiding the train on Meg since well before Fred actually gave a townread of Meg, and has mostly just cycled votes between Owen, Enchant, and Bugspray today. The last vote on Bugspray suggests no process to thinking Bugspray is scum, but to making him a policy vote. It's far far too early in the game for policy votes, and post #596 is bad. He's saying Bugspray is an ok vote because he's not trying to find scum but he's voting him for reasons, with 9 days left in day 1, that aren't trying to find scum.

[Crescent]

Uh, the very first thing he did upon replacing in was vote Bugspray.

[Crescent]

Uh, the very first thing he did upon replacing in was vote Bugspray.

He? Okay then.

I guess i can add that to the reasons that make the slot mafia. Feels odd from Unsure to apologize for not unseeing his main scumread.

He came in, immediately shaded the entire Meg wagon, then voted Bugspray specifically because it was the countertrain, then called both of them scum with me for absolutely no reason.

He specifically said "Wagons like Meg are often scum-led" and then turned around and called Meg scum like 35 minutes later. It's very conflicting behavior in general.

[Crescent]

now that i look at this with squinting eyes, this isn't effort at all

i've never seen enchant effort in my life

That's kind of the point that people have called DWLee on. It's a no-effort post and somehow they've been voting Enchant and their only reason why is "That specific post was so much effort".

[Crescent]

Feels like this sudden lack of energy for the Meg wagon is a good sign. More meg votes please.

Oh and in response to this: Meg has no posts in 15 hours, and barely any content since being put -2. It kind does feel like Meg is just sitting back and hoping pressure drops off of them, instead of actually trying to solve their way out of it. The vote on you did absolutely nothing for me.

[Crescent]

And not voting is completely NAI for me, which you could learn in just a few minutes of research.

[Crescent]

I said nothing about them being a scum read. I just said they're not a townread. DWLee is an actual scumread, but, like 2273, there's already 8 trains out there, and even if I were inclined to vote this early, I'm not interested in creating train #9 (This exact situation happened in 2773, I would not vote George and create a 9th different train, even though he was my top read at the time).

Bugspray is a null waste of a player slot that exists only to be eventually policy voted or cleared through other means. The fact that Fred is trying to lead a policy vote on him for "not trying to find scum" with 9 days left in day 1 is a bad joke because it's a vote that

isn't trying to find scum

with a ridiculous amount of time left in the day.

Meg and Fred are very directly tied to each other through their actions today. Combine this with Meg doing virtually nothing under pressure: I think if one is scum, the other is. The way the day has gone, I believe a Meg scumflip means there's a high chance of scum Fred and town Bugspray, in which case we don't need to waste a vote on policy anyway.

[Crescent]

Oh and in response to this: Meg has no posts in 15 hours,

you still havent got over that other people can have lives that are different to yours, have you?
disappearing for 15 whole hours does mean zilch

(other points still can stand)

It's the fact that they haven't posted in 15 hours AND have barely had any actual reaction to the pressure on them to begin with. It reads to me as someone waiting for pressure to go off of them rather than someone trying to break their way through it.

Scum disappearing under pressure is a ridiculously common tactic that often works. There is nothing Meg has done since getting the train on him that tells me the train is wrong.

[Crescent]

Thanks for responding

Meg and Fred are very directly tied to each other through their actions today. Combine this with Meg doing virtually nothing under pressure: I think if one is scum, the other is.

I wasn't here, can you tell me how?

oh I like Fredrick A Campbell

Fred is my #1 scumread in the game on a Meg scumflip.

The moment Fred got momentum, Meg immediately blew that momentum up, and turned it into a bad train on Andante. Fred was avoiding the train on Meg since well before Fred actually gave a townread of Meg, and has mostly just cycled votes between Owen, Enchant, and Bugspray today. The last vote on Bugspray suggests no process to thinking Bugspray is scum, but to making them a policy vote. It's far far too early in the game for policy votes, and post #596 is bad. He's saying Bugspray is an ok vote because he's not trying to find scum but he's voting him for reasons, with 9 days left in day 1, that aren't trying to find scum.

[Crescent]

Right now, I think that the series of four posts starting with 188 are the most likely thing to come from scum that I've seen so far. Fredrick A Campbell inserts himself into the main conflict of the game, Vivax vs UNOwen, and tries to add fuel to the fire of one of the sides. The fact that I believe the criticism is inaccurate (UNOwen was referring to post 138, which Fredrick himself has ignored) makes me think it's even more likely that it was a made up reason to join what looks to me like a T/T conflict and encourage it to continue.

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

So much of Fred's ISO is nonsense. Virtually none of it is actual content and he follows a naked vote on Owen with... Some really awkward looking shade. Third highest post count in the game right now and all I can really say about him is "he exists".

Fred could easily be scum, his commentary so far has been pretty shallow and doesn't suggest he's actually given things much thought (see also 179 which asks Lowell a question pretty obviously answered in context).

So much of Fred's ISO is nonsense.

exactly why I just want to lim the slot

These 4 people posted the same agenda in batch at around the same time.

VOTE: Andante

Gut says one of those are scum. Scum loves these kind of wagons that arent necessarily alignment related.
I think this is the most likely.

Vivax points out how Fred got a buncha people talking about him at the same time, and Meg immediately leads a train on Andante, dragging Vivax along with him soon after this. This effectively killed most of the momentum on Fred, yet it doesn't even give a read on Fred. Meg never gives ANY read on Fred the entire time he's doing this.

And the Andante train was the worst train in the early game. She was effectively getting bullied for absolutely no reason on a really forced argument that one of the 4 people Vivax mentioned MUST be scum. If there's any reason I've had to think Meg might be scum, it's the train on Andante.

[Crescent]

Oh and that reminds me Andante is also most likely town on a Meg scumflip. Can't see that explosion being fake.

[Crescent]

i disagree that fred and meg is correlated in some inverse fashion. i just fail to see the connection.
i do like your thought process on Andante v Meg.

I think they're correlated because they've both actively gone against the trains on the other without actually calling each other town, and have both tried to mount counterwagons to each other despite that. Fred completely avoids Meg until Meg's train is already at 7 votes, and he passively calls him town based on something that occurred 220 posts before. If this town read were legit, where was it

before

?

His reason for calling Meg town is in #565 and references #334 and #337. The nearest vote count to these posts has both Fred and Meg at 4 votes each. Why did he not say it then? Why does he only defend Meg when Meg is running away at 7 votes?

Honestly Fred just looks awful, period.

[Crescent]

why is andante vs meg a thing?

Because the way he led that train on you and the forced reasoning he did it for have never set right with me.

[Crescent]

Right now, I think that the series of four posts starting with 188 are the most likely thing to come from scum that I've seen so far. Fredrick A Campbell inserts himself into the main conflict of the game, Vivax vs UNOwen, and tries to add fuel to the fire of one of the sides. The fact that I believe the criticism is inaccurate (UNOwen was referring to post 138, which Fredrick himself has ignored) makes me think it's even more likely that it was a made up reason to join what looks to me like a T/T conflict and encourage it to continue.

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

So much of Fred's ISO is nonsense. Virtually none of it is actual content and he follows a naked vote on Owen with... Some really awkward looking shade. Third highest post count in the game right now and all I can really say about him is "he exists".

Fred could easily be scum, his commentary so far has been pretty shallow and doesn't suggest he's actually given things much thought (see also 179 which asks Lowell a question pretty obviously answered in context).

So much of Fred's ISO is nonsense.

exactly why I just want to lim the slot

These 4 people posted the same agenda in batch at around the same time.

VOTE: Andante

Gut says one of those are scum. Scum loves these kind of wagons that arent necessarily alignment related.
I think this is the most likely.

Vivax points out how Fred got a buncha people talking about him at the same time, and Meg immediately leads a train on Andante, dragging Vivax along with him soon after this. This effectively killed most of the momentum on Fred, yet it doesn't even give a read on Fred. Meg never gives ANY read on Fred the entire time he's doing this.

And the Andante train was the worst train in the early game. She was effectively getting bullied for absolutely no reason on a really forced argument that one of the 4 people Vivax mentioned MUST be scum. If there's any reason I've had to think Meg might be scum, it's the train on Andante.

Your point being? Something like Fred is mafia because mafia Meg ignored Fred?

Why was the Andante train bad if you don't know their alignment and why do you mention my reasons being the same as Meg's reason to start a wagon on Andante?

This reads like:
"Meg is mafia because she was on a wagon that Vivax suspected"
Even though she voted before me, going by your post.

I feel like you didn't actually read the post at all.

[Crescent]

Anyway let's walkthrough it in even more simple terms.

Both of them have directly defended the other in instances without calling each other town, and both of them have led scummy countertrains when defending the other person.

That's the link. It's an obvious, direct link.

[Crescent]

so you think it's likelier that Fred and Meg are one scum whiteknighting the other scummy town? (because you've been suggesting Meg/Fred inverse alignment) i guess i dont see why it would be mutual then?
regardless i think we reached the right conclusion, just not sure of how you got there.

...I've been saying this entire time that Fred is my #1 scumread if Meg flips scum. Why would I be describing a T/S situation? It's conceivably "possible" one is town, but it doesn't stop one from being my #1 scumread if the other flips scum.

If Meg flips scum, the very first person I want dead is Fred.

If Fred flips scum, the very first person I want dead is Meg.

That's what I've been saying.

[Crescent]

maybe if anything, #172 is the real reason imo that fred and meg can be TvS if Meg is scum. I dont think scum (Fred) is likely to tie and rule-out partner connections with other slots? (ruling out Meg with the slots mentioned, except if those slots are scum, ig?)

this stands. what do you think about it?

I think if there's only one scum, that Fred is more likely to be the scum between the two.

Fred's super late defense of Meg only comes when Meg is at 7 votes, and references posts that are very old and from when Fred and Meg were tied in votes. This reeks of scum defending a player for retroactive reasons, either because they're scum together, or because that player is town and the scum wants to go on record defending them when they're -2.

[Crescent]

why is andante vs meg a thing?

Because the way he led that train on you and the forced reasoning he did it for have never set right with me.

This sounds like you are mentioning me while trying to explain your read on Meg.
We started that wagon together and you struggle to explain your mafia read on them because you'd have to call my reasoning forced too.

Your reasoning was also forced, and Meg leg you along like a good little puppy.

[Crescent]

I'm not putting Meg -1, and I think Fred is scummier than Meg anyway. Meg's response to their train gives me no confidence they are town and my feelings continue to sour as I get the general feeling Meg is trying to lay low until the votes go away.

And how long ago did I townread you again? Like, post... 20?

[Crescent]

Can we... Not talk about ending day 1 with eight days left in day 1?

I mean it's not as bad as trying to do a policy vote for completely self-contradictory reasons with 9 days left but still.

[Crescent]

Don't think scum Gera pops in to make that unvote regardless of Meg's alignment so that turned out useful.

[Crescent]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89691

This game isn't much of an example because all it seems to be is a bunch of town kamikazeing scum on coin flips but ok I guess it does make sense as an explanation.

[Crescent]

This vote feels like it's been at 7 for ages. Meg is essentially refusing to do anything, and potential scumbuddies like Fred are trying to lead the vote away from him for godawful reasons despite Meg giving no one any legitimate reason to want to do so.

The game has started to stagnate because no one else can get enough momentum to challenge it, and the guy whose has been at 7 for ages won't do anything.

If anything today at least, we got a reason to townread Gera.

I find it very curious though that Unsure said they'd rather sort Meg before Bugspray.. Yet their vote is still on Bugspray.

[Crescent]

Which also contradicts them recently acting like they just want Meg to be voted off already and the day ended, I should add.

[Crescent]

Meg hasn't posted in 27 hours, and this is devolving into full scale shitposting. Lowell and I are the only two who have even attempted content in the last 9 hours.

VOTE: Meg

Come back and claim, or continue to stay away and die. The game's been virtually dead for a little while now outside of a specific couple of people. Kinda getting tired of what's like two entire days of Meg doing nothing at -2.

I still think it's a really awkward look for Unsure to have said he wanted to already end the day, and said he wanted to flip Meg before Bugspray, but is still sitting with a vote on Bugspray. Actions clearly not matching words.

[Crescent]

She.

And no, your vote staying in Bugspray clearly showed your actions didn't match your words. You admit the decent likelihood of it being a scum driven counterwagon, and say you are against it... Yet your vote remains on it. No sale.

Either way, Fred still needs to die for reasons that are already discussed. MT hammering out of nowhere after being sussed for avoiding the vote sure is a thing, though.

Andante, Bugspray, Enchant, Fire, Gera, Lowell, Owen, and Vivax, are all probably town to varying degrees.

Andante due to Meg's awful vote and her reaction to the bad train.

Bugspray because Fred was trying to literal policy vote them with 9 days left in day 1 to save Meg.

Enchant's vote on Bugspray reeks of town making it for funsies. Also don't think two scum jump on at the same time.

What Fire did with Meg alongside Pooky generally isn't ever a bus.

Gera's last two posts of the day are not posts I see him making as scum. Gera doesn't naughty point someone for a hammer if he knows the guy is going to flip scum.

Lowell either went super hard into bussing or other than me was the only town to actually still be playing before the day ended.

The way Fred stirred up Owen and Vivax suggests both are town. I already had Vivax as town anyway. He was clearly fanning that fite as an outsider and using bad logic in the process.


After Fred, I'd look for scum in MT, Prince, and Unsure.

Probably

Unsure first. Fred is the virtual scum lock of the day though

I feel like most of us have a pretty similar pool, looking at the votes that have come in so far. I'd like to hear why any of these people are scummier than Fred's consistent pattern of behavior though.

Third highest poster, but little actual content. Tried to fuel an early feud between two people with bad logic. Retroactively defended a scumbuddy (who had also defended him) with very old posts after their vote stalled at -2, but completely ignored the train until then. Policy voted for someone for "not trying to find scum" with a vote that obviously wasn't trying to find scum as a blatant counterwagon. Seriously, just re-read how awful that Bugspray vote and especially his justifications for it are.

I don't see town motivations in any of Fred's actions. I'd much rather kill him than the others right now.

[Crescent]

Coming around to Andante town ftr

For the record, you came off to me all day as town who knows he kinda shit the bed in 2273, and is trying too hard to make up for it here. It's why Meg led you onto Andante so easily.

I'm very much doubting that Meg saw all that attention on one scum, and then decided to immediately start a train on another scum. Andante being scum would be one hell of a 3D chess play that we have no reason to entertain anytime soon.

[Crescent]

Oh, Pooky passed Fred in posts during that rush of shitposts, and I only just noticed that now. He was third most of the day. I just know someone is going to nitpick at this so let me nitpick myself <3

[Crescent]

Imagine playing mafia for the logic, but you can't play chess while at it. Where are the hard feelings, the sore backsides and the drama? The best stories aren't made out of logic.

I'm nominating myself to narrator for this game since I'm universally townread anyway, somebody has to.

Coming around to Andante town ftr

For the record, you came off to me all day as town who knows he kinda shit the bed in 2273, and is trying too hard to make up for it here. It's why Meg led you onto Andante so easily.

I'm very much doubting that Meg saw all that attention on one scum, and then decided to immediately start a train on another scum. Andante being scum would be one hell of a 3D chess play that we have no reason to entertain anytime soon.

Sorry, with probably at least a hundred games under my belt I have come to realize that it's not about success in the game, but about the funny stories in them for reminiscing and entertainment purposes. So you can bet I won't try to make up for anything except for low activity.

Didn't you say you were new in 2273?

You certainly played like you were new.

[Crescent]

Anyways on a more serious note:

I mentioned during day 1 that I'm presumably returning to work from my injury absence tomorrow, and there's no way I'm risking posting while at work after being out for weeks. I gotta reestablish my "I'm so good at my job the managers will overlook me being on my phone for a bit" cred. I really have no idea how this is going to impact my play.

Maybe it's time for... BLOODLUST

[Crescent]

Malcolm's hammer was bad, he needs to explain what arguments he was convinced by and why it took him until Meg was at E-1 to be convinced.

It's worse because he was shaded for almost completely ignoring Meg's train before that. It felt obligatory, in a sense.

Anyways ngl bloodlust sounds fun right now. I've played some really measured minis so far, but this is a large and I kinda don't want to wait two whole weeks to impale Fred's head on a spike.

Fun fact: The moment Meg flipped scum, I was thinking about first-post voting Fred and saying "That's one down, and you're next" today if I lived the night. Damnit that would've been baller I should've just done it.

[Crescent]

Off the top of my head, Crescent and

bugspray

I currently townread.

VOTE: bugspray

Come along, let's pressure this player into giving some opinions.

Oh, I actually don't mind bugspray getting executed.

Spoiler: post 592

VOTE: bugspray

Come along, let's pressure this player into giving some opinions.

VOTE: BUGSPRAY

OBVSCUM DIE

VOTE: Bugspray

Disclaimer: Not a scumread, but killing not_mafia or people who could be them is always fun.

did bugspray claim maf? what did I miss?

There is no point keeping a player that is not participating in the game.

bugspray has had five 24-hour days to attempt to find the mafia. That goes for any other player who hasn't been attempting as well.

He has 4 posts the entire rest of the day after this. The justification for the vote is limp as a wet noodle and isn't trying to find scum at all. Now he's calling Bugspray

town

for no reason?

VOTE: Fred

Yeah I should've first post voted this this is so goddamned obvious.

[Crescent]

I'd like to specifically note the two people he just called town are the one person who's voting him, and the one person other than the person voting him who clearly wants him dead, and he did this in flagrant disregard of his actions towards the one who voted him yesterday.

Yeah this isn't town. This isn't town thought process.

[Crescent]

Coming around to Andante town ftr

For the record, you came off to me all day as town who knows he kinda shit the bed in 2273, and is trying too hard to make up for it here. It's why Meg led you onto Andante so easily.

I'm very much doubting that Meg saw all that attention on one scum, and then decided to immediately start a train on another scum. Andante being scum would be one hell of a 3D chess play that we have no reason to entertain anytime soon.

How would me being scum be a 3d chess move??

I’m actually confused by how easily I’m being TRed for just… not being here?? I don’t think I mentioned Meg once day 1, and now half yall are all “Andante for sure town!!” like, idk how I feel about this, 1 minute yall are like “stupid push on fred… fake annoyance” and next it’s “yeah andante town”

anyone wanna tell me why malcolm is town? or is he the next lim

Meg's vote on you is the scummiest thing in Meg's entire ISO. It reeks of scum forcing a reason to go after town.

Also Meg also did it to protect Fred, who is dead obvious scum and is unquestionably the only person we should be voting right now.

[Crescent]

Oh I actually totally missed that Bugspray meaninglessly claimed because to be frank I glanced right over their post.

[Crescent]

PookyTheMagicalBear
Post 4 - Town
Interaction with MegAzumarill (Post 171) suggests not both are mafia

UNOwen
Interaction with Vivax (Posts 106, 108, 119, 122-128, 134, 137-138) suggests not both are mafia

Vivax
Interaction with MegAzumarill (Posts 21-22) suggests not both are mafia
Vote hopping - Non Alignment Indicative
Post 33 - Town
Post 41 - Town
Interaction with UNOwen (Posts 106, 108, 119, 122-128, 134, 137-138) suggests not both are mafia

MegAzumarill
Interaction with MegAzumarill (Posts 21-22) suggests not both are mafia

Fred why won't you vote for Meg?

I would vote for MegAzumarill if I have an idea of why MegAzumarill is being voted and I consider the reason warranted to vote MegAzumarill.

I'm townreading MegAzumarill

Spoiler: post 334

if i had more to say on crescent i would say it. I just read her posts and was like "this person is someone i should look into later"

Why is azumaril wagon bad

Tonal town read on them.

If the only read you have on someone is tonal why would you think its a bad wagon.

To me this feels like tmi that I'm town.
Also dont like the MT vote.
VOTE: Fancypants

I don't believe a player who is Mafia would ask "If the only read you have on someone is tonal why would you think its a bad wagon."

Spoiler: post 337

The idea that someone is only town off "tone" is incompatible with thinking the wagon is bad. Feels like they know my alignment and so they know I flip town.

Firstly, I don't think a mafioso is going to even think about "The idea that someone is only town off "tone" is incompatible with thinking the wagon is bad."

The "Feels like they know my alignment and so they know I flip town." suggests MegAzumarill was thinking about this as town.

(I had the posts spoilered but it looked weird so I gave up)

It's a strange progression for sure, but meg was a 1-shot roleblocker, like, I DOUBT meg was the most powerful role scum had, so I'm not actually sold that maf would flip to this hard TR of a partner. idk, not too certain I can back a Fred lim right now. Malcolm however... Malcolm had the world's worst push on me, then hammered meg for town cred? lmao yeah no I'll keep my vote on malcolm

The biggest problem I have is that Fred completely avoided even

commenting

on the Meg train until Meg was already at -2. He was throwing his vote all over the place to form a countertrain. Meg and Fred blatantly distanced themselves from pressure on the other without actually calling each other town. Fred throws like 4 votes down as the Meg train is building but won't talk about the Meg train. This is inherently a highly scum-slanted action and Meg's alignment isn't even relevant to this point.

[Crescent]

It kinda sucks that the only defunct point I've is in the very post I voted him though~

Also I'm just going to let this loose:

I'm actually legit angry at Bugspray for flat out wasting their role on a godawful meaningless claim. Not getting voted off after Meg flipped scum. Too inactive to be worth killing at night. Claims random inno scan for absolutely no reason day 2.

Offensively awful play.

[Crescent]

The biggest problem I have is that Fred completely avoided even commenting on the Meg train until Meg was already at -2. He was throwing his vote all over the place to form a countertrain. Meg and Fred blatantly distanced themselves from pressure on the other without actually calling each other town. Fred throws like 4 votes down as the Meg train is building but won't talk about the Meg train. This is inherently a highly scum-slanted action and Meg's alignment isn't even relevant to this point.

I mean, I'm not saying Fred really had a defense for meg, just "meg is town" and that was that, but town can be wrong, idk, I feel really strongly that malcolm is maf

also, if bugspray claimed, why is pooky dead?

Bugspray claimed gunsmith at the start of the day for no justifiable reason whatsoever because they're

really

bad at mafia.

[Crescent]

The biggest problem I have is that Fred completely avoided even commenting on the Meg train until Meg was already at -2. He was throwing his vote all over the place to form a countertrain. Meg and Fred blatantly distanced themselves from pressure on the other without actually calling each other town. Fred throws like 4 votes down as the Meg train is building but won't talk about the Meg train. This is inherently a highly scum-slanted action and Meg's alignment isn't even relevant to this point.

I mean, I'm not saying Fred really had a defense for meg, just "meg is town" and that was that, but town can be wrong, idk, I feel really strongly that malcolm is maf

also, if bugspray claimed, why is pooky dead?

The problem is less that he defended Meg, and more he ignored the train in it's buildup. He tried to form countertrains while completely ignoring that Meg's train was taking off.

[Crescent]

Adante = town.

My hesitation with Fred is that Lowell abandoned the Meg wagon for Fred just as it began to gather momentum, and then didn't return until it was clear the Meg wagon was serious. So it seemed like Lowell might have been trying to defuse the pressure on his buddy which obviously doesn't work if Fred is also scum.

I actually forgot about this.

Lowell ended up probably the single hardest person in the game on Meg's train though, as he was really pushing that to be hammered after stalling out for so long. It's theoretically "possible" that Meg disappeared intentionally just to let Lowell do this, but that's kind of a total bush-league play.

[Crescent]

Lowell ended up probably the single hardest person in the game on Meg's train though,

is this revisionist history. Lowell was being super sketchy

Until the end of the day where he was basically "The vote has stalled out can we kill it already". I admit I'm biased, as I was the only other person in that entire timeframe doing anything other than shitposting.

Lowell isn't "clear" to me, but I wouldn't vote him before Fred, Prince, MT, or Unsure.

I'd wager

at least

two remaining scum in those 4.

[Crescent]

Well lowell was pushing for meg wagon even when it was "stalling" which tbh i don't remember being a major problem i just reemember other people trying to get other wagons going that didn't happen which is what i think i should be looking at.

Lowell could be town but the counter wagon was like Fred? What other wagons was there

Fred, Meg, and Fancypants were all at 4 at one point. Fred lost all his momentum because Meg basically ended up taking it all from him. Meg's vote on FP ultimately ended up killing momentum on him. The only true counterwagon at the end was Bugspray, and two of the three people who ended on them are two of the four people I think are most likely to be scum.

Fred votes Enchant, Fancypants (2 posts later, he votes for Bugspray), Owen, and Bugspray during the time Meg is building votes, before he ever once makes a real comment on the train. Enchant's vote on Bugspray was essentially just fakespew, and then Unsure followed almost immediately upon replacing in. Fred places a new vote every 3-5 posts as Meg's train builds and sticks. He was just slinging them around hoping to find something that stuck.

Yesterday overall there were were some really

bad

votes on each other between FP, Fred, Meg, and MT. Conversely, Prince's vote on Fred looks much better than basically any of the votes these guys put on each other.

[Crescent]

Who cares.

I do! It's awful unjustifiable play and on my home forum I'd

still

be lambasting him over it.

And it wouldn't be just me!

[Crescent]

Them damnit them why do I keep messing this up.

[Crescent]

That's the point, they weren't going to die anytime soon. They were perfectly set to go 3 nights uninterrupted and come in with 3 results at the same time. Though I guess the likelihood is it doesn't really change anything, even if I feel like it's a total misplay.

Though, the way games are setup here is drastically different from the way I'm used to games being set up, as scum in general is

significantly

weaker here than I'm used to. An average game of 17 there would have 5 scum and 3-4 scum power roles (And an average game of 13 would have 4 scum and 2-3 scum power roles). There's a decent chance they'd have a second role to shut that claim down with for at least a night, even with a dead RB (Who would be acting every night).

But yes I certainly would not waste a bullet on a player of that caliber if I were scum. Good scum don't fear power roles; they fear power players. The last time I was scum, I shot a VT night 3 over 3 town power roles, because he was the only actual player in the game I thought could actually lead a train on me. I found myself in final 5 on day 5 with two living town PRs and basically no worries because I knew those players were never going to catch me.

[Crescent]

So I just did an exercise where I took the names of all remaining players and removed the ones I'm townreading. Order is not relevant.

{

Unsure

,

Firebringer

,

Fredrick A Campbell

,

Dwlee99

,

Lowell

,

bugspray

,

geraintm

,

UNOwen

,

Prince of Paterson

}

I suppose I could leave

Firebringer

and

geraintm

out for the time being. Although I am not very sure about these two, they have given me some stuff to townread them for, while the rest are all kinda shady.

Crescent

made a good observation about

gera

.

Gera's last two posts of the day are not posts I see him making as scum. Gera doesn't naughty point someone for a hammer if he knows the guy is going to flip scum.

I overlooked that post but yes, you are correct in that it does point towards town

geraintm

.

{

Unsure

,

Fredrick A Campbell

,

Dwlee99

,

Lowell

,

bugspray

,

UNOwen

,

Prince of Paterson

}

If I am correct, all the remaining mafia should be amongst the remaining seven. If we had a 5-member scumteam then more than half of them are scum, and if we had a 3-member scumteam then it's almost half.

I've been led to believe that 4 scum in minis and 5 scum in larges is effectively a hard no here. In 2272 I immediately assumed 4 scum in the game and was shot down on that rather quickly.

[Crescent]

Also Bugspray randomly claiming GS as scum to start day 2 would be insane why are they even on your list?

[Crescent]

Lowell ended up probably the single hardest person in the game on Meg's train though, as he was really pushing that to be hammered after stalling out for so long. It's theoretically "possible" that Meg disappeared intentionally just to let Lowell do this, but that's kind of a total bush-league play.

Eh, I didn't really see the wagon as having stalled for that long. There was about a week until deadline, it felt like Meg being at least put at E-1 was only a matter of time.

Meg was sitting at -2 doing nothing for around 32 hours until I got sick of it and voted him.

Huh, I thought it was longer than that.

[Crescent]

Also Bugspray randomly claiming GS as scum to start day 2 would be insane why are they even on your list?

Claiming Gunsmith is not automatically town indicative. There could be a mafia-aligned Gunsmith, and if there is,

bugspray

could be trying to gain towncred by claiming this and working with town.

Scum aligned gunsmith what

[Crescent]

Also Bugspray randomly claiming GS as scum to start day 2 would be insane why are they even on your list?

Claiming Gunsmith is not automatically town indicative. There could be a mafia-aligned Gunsmith, and if there is,

bugspray

could be trying to gain towncred by claiming this and working with town.

Or you know....if bs is mafia. They are just faking being gunsmith. The idea they have to be gunsmith is weird idea to assume is the truthful part if you think could be mafia.

Only way he's scum is if he's actually "scum aligned gunsmith", or scum otherwise

knows

town doesn't have a gunsmith, or else he gets instantly countered and slaughtered.

Between that and Fred countertraining him against Meg, I don't even have an interest in humoring Bugspray being scum at the moment.

[Crescent]

Also Bugspray randomly claiming GS as scum to start day 2 would be insane why are they even on your list?

Claiming Gunsmith is not automatically town indicative. There could be a mafia-aligned Gunsmith, and if there is,

bugspray

could be trying to gain towncred by claiming this and working with town.

Or you know....if bs is mafia. They are just faking being gunsmith. The idea they have to be gunsmith is weird idea to assume is the truthful part if you think could be mafia.

Only way he's scum is if he's actually "scum aligned gunsmith", or scum otherwise

knows

town doesn't have a gunsmith, or else he gets instantly countered and slaughtered.

Between that and Fred countertraining him against Meg, I don't even have an interest in humoring Bugspray being scum at the moment.

ummm its very easy to fake claim gunsmith as mafia.
why would scum assume town has a gunsmith here to counter?
Wait why am i going down this argument.

We both agree Bug isn't mafia. I should avoid pointless arguments

Because it's statistically the most likely PR town has given the setup. Claiming the role blind at the start of the day is absolutely bonkers unless they have a reason to think otherwise.

[Crescent]

I'm a kitty

[Crescent]

I'm a kitty

I believe this

YAY

Kitty is not normal role.

Like a kitty would adhere to your pitiful

mortal

guidelines?

I'm cute and cuddly and stuff <3

[Crescent]

My kitty wasn't feeling well yesterday and it took my head right out of it. Only looks like I missed 80 or so posts though?

And looking at the chart, Lee hasn't even posted once today after being prodded twice yesterday? zzzzzz

<3 All things kitty.

[Crescent]

I'm kind of thinking the reason I was townreading PookyTheMagicalBear is useless due to WIFOM.

I don't know if this was intended to be a dumbtell, but I am having trouble believing that someone who early on was reading carefully enough to be noting down interactions as non-partnered and correcting the mod on votecounts would not notice who the nightkill was.

VOTE: Fredrick

I agree with Crescent's thoughts so far for the most part. I think it's fine to trust her as town for now. I expect that she is a pretty good scum player who would be willing and able to control the game, but I think especially her frustration near the end of day yesterday at the lack of action feels uninformed. Scum would know that it could look bad in the face of an imminent scumflip. I also think that the somewhat shaky townreading of Lowell for being active near end of day is the specific brand of not quite rational play that comes from town, letting your emotional take on the game influence your reads.

I would be fine with a Malcolm wagon as well.

Depends on the playerbase and, my mood, and other factors. My last scum game, I replaced in day 1 (Not realizing I was replacing the guy who was known for always replacing out day 1 as scum at the time), and played back a bit early because I knew the replacement meta was coming right for me. My partners were a guy who hated me for being female and refused to try (There's a few such guys there), and a first-game ever newbie who was totally overwhelmed. I had to play on the backfoot for a while, and town did me a solid with a terrible early hammer on a stronger town player day 2, followed by a scan on useless inactive misogynist night 2 (You scan people who are hardest to read, not people you already think are scum. This is the common mistake scanners make, and primarily why I do not fear them when I am scum.), which was claimed right away on day 3 and effectively let me coast through the day. I killed that specific VT player on night 3, as he was the only

player

in the game I feared, effectively letting that scanner clear a town in the process. I took the game over on day 4 (despite the 3 town PRs, 2 of which were claimed) and never looked back. As far as not fearing power goes, I had a strong scanner read on someone night 1 and roleblocked them every night of the game. He was indeed a scanner, finally claimed day 5, and promptly became the game winning scumhammer.

The best way to play scum is to treat the game like chess. The player I'm effectively a protege of once had a game where, after day 1, he on a whim decided to predict every kill and every voteoff that would occur for the rest of the game, in the order they happened. The game ended on day 5, and

all

his predictions ended up correct, and he didn't even go out of his way to make the specific voteoffs happen. Oh do I sometimes wish I had that kind of swag.

By the way, if you put someone at L-1, declare it. The person who hammers won't hammer without realising that way.

Before voting, check if the player you are voting is at L-1. If they are, declare intent before hammering.

If a hammer without intent happens again, I'll be looking into whoever hammers.

I don't even usually vote until like 3 days are left in the day, I just found Meg's outright vanishing from the game so obnoxious that I didn't care. In 2272 I unvoted someone I had a strong scum read on with ~1 1/2-2 days left in the day just because I felt he was getting votes too fast. The difference is, he was actually active.

Honestly I feel like I feel like not much actually happened in there. Mostly it's just been people I think are probably town going in circles, primarily because...

Prince has exactly 1 post all day and it's a new vote on Fred. MT's has only 3, and they do nothing for me. Unsure has 4, and they barely do anything for me. Fred's posts do worse than nothing.

He naked votes Firebringer in #893 despite not mentioning him in a single post since post #79

. Why? The vote is completely out of context and the only post he makes after is to play game meta. He has also given no reason for claiming a townread on me despite it being in his first post of the day.

Also Dwlee doesn't even have a post and needs to be prodded... Again.

[Crescent]

Oh no!!! I hope kitty is ok!!!

She's my tiny cuddly stalker but she's also 18, so.. When it starts going downhill it could go downhill quickly.

And the fabric of my personality is gonna implode for a while when it gets to that point. She's been sleeping in her box so far today.

[Crescent]

Actually it's worse.

Fred hasn't mentioned MT in a single content post

the entire game

He is once again leading a baseless wagon against the top train while avoiding talking about the top train in any capacity. It's a repeat of the exact behavior I scumread him for yesterday.

[Crescent]

The problem is more Fred has a consistent pattern of avoiding top votes for no good reason. He either doesn't want to bus, or doesn't want to be caught voting off town. Either way, it's inherently very scum slanted to be doing this, especially as a pattern. Fred is not hunting for scum. Fred has not hunted for scum all game. What he's doing is

avoiding

the people who actually are.

[Crescent]

Reminder: He attempted to lead 4 baseless countertrains against Meg yesterday, but never actually gave a read on Meg himself as he was doing this. Now he has a random baseless vote, but is not giving any read of you.

This is a player who doesn't seem to even be slightly interested in actually working with the players who are trying to solve. All he does is throw votes around randomly and hope people follow. This doesn't help town solve in any conceivable way aka it's not a town mindset.

[Crescent]

And yes he did give a retroactive read on Meg much later, but this was after he'd already tried to vote 4 other people while refusing to give a read of Meg. Cleaning that up so it doesn't get nitpicked.

Anyways, he is by an

wide

margin my #1 scumread. I won't say MT votes are terrible though, as he's on my list of potential scum. I just don't find the argument there nearly as obvious.

[Crescent]

In hindsight, now that I'm being less tunnely on Fred, I have to correct something I said earlier. There is one MT post that's good.

MT saying Lowell is town (and giving a reason for it) is a good look. I feel like Lowell is the kind of low-effort town that scum loves to have in their POE, and MT basically just tossed him right out of it. Side note I have no idea how Gera ever got the impression that I scumread Lowell after my exchange with Fire at the start of the day.

[Crescent]

Though it does make me curious that he has given 0 indications of actually scumreading anyone today and I would like to see an argument to that effect the next time he shows up.

[Crescent]

If anything, I would've been pocketing you from the very start of the day (when Fire and I clashed over you), not in that post. I also never even called MT town, I just said he looks better in hindsight than he did earlier, and I challenged him to give actual scumreads.

Kinda feels like that post is jumping to all sorts of false conclusions while paying zero actual attention to the rest of my actions today.

[Crescent]

Unsure remains in my POE and some of the reasons are similar to yours. It's actually not the "talking big about Meg being scum but not voting for them" that bothers me most. It's keeping the vote on Bugspray, who was the clear countertrain,

and a player Unsure specifically said they didn't want to vote out before Meg

. This is where the actions don't match the words to me: Town here should be unvoting Bugspray as a natural progression of their own actions, and he simply does not do it.

i also subscribe to solving bugs' slot after meg's slot.

This should be accompanied by an unvote that never shows up.

He sussed me today specifically for being skeptical of him never voting Meg, but it partially misses the point of why the skepticism is there. Bugspray was a scum-driven counterwagon by Fred trying to protect Meg and I was spot on about this.

And Fred's only become even more obviously scum today so....

[Crescent]

Also as a side note, given the way Unsure has been tunneling MT since before Meg even flipped, I don't see them being as scum together.

[Crescent]

In hindsight, now that I'm being less tunnely on Fred, I have to correct something I said earlier. There is one MT post that's good.

MT saying Lowell is town (and giving a reason for it) is a good look. I feel like Lowell is the kind of low-effort town that scum loves to have in their POE, and MT basically just tossed him right out of it. Side note I have no idea how Gera ever got the impression that I scumread Lowell after my exchange with Fire at the start of the day.

I'm retracting crescent from my town list. Something about this post gives me the willies. The way it looks like narration, maybe? Looks like possible pocketing of two different low-energy people at once? Between these people and the scumzers trying to lowkey frame me as mafia doctor eh I don't know.

Would scum Crescent not be best off pushing me if I'm town though and they want to pocket? Few votes on me and it's an easy place to go at the moment seemingly.

Correct. I didn't even bother to mention my motives for pocketing you two of all people would be virtually nonexistent as scum, because his argument was so flawed in every aspect that I didn't need to. I was basically just going to see if someone else did it for me~

Anyways, who do you scumread? You have still given us zero inclinations today.

[Crescent]

General reminder that I could be mafia too.
Thank you for your attention.

Not_Mafia is Mafia let's get him.

General reminder that I could be mafia too.
Thank you for your attention.

Crescent I'm townreading for attempting to find mafia.

Firebringer I'm voting because Firebringer is one of the players I'm not townreading.

MalcolmTucker is also a player I'm not townreading, but I've randomly decided to go for Firebringer first.

Um let's walk through this. First, it's not like I'm the only one trying to solve. Second, Fire is a completely useless splinter when like 6 people have votes and you're apparently neutral on most of the game.

Second is: If you're town, I would

not

be trying to find mafia, because I've effectively been death tunneling on you all day. You basically haven't even responded to like, any arguments at all, but you're also giving me a town read that makes no sense to give out.

Like your reason for calling me town only actually makes sense if you're scum.

[Crescent]

By the way can we get a DWlee prod by the way 'cause this day is old enough to warrant it, and the sustained inactivity has left that player slot almost impossible to properly read.

[Crescent]

Would town immediately E-1 their scumread in that situation? Think about it.

Yes?

It really depends on the player, but on average I'd say towns in this community seem quite.. Quick to put people -1. Way quicker than I'm used to.

In 2272 my top scumread went up so fast day 1 I unvoted him for a while just to have the breathing space.

[Crescent]

DWlee

solving

? Really? The person who's only content of the entire game is tunneling over someone based on a single d1 post that no one agreed with them with?

[Crescent]

KITTENS!?

Town confirmed <3

[Crescent]

VOTE: Firebringer

i can see no reason in their post history for this.
naughty point, just looks like trying to get any wagon going which isnt them

VOTE: Unsure

Likable counterwagon. The predecessor to the slot had enough scummy stuff going for themselves.

i didn't really get GReeting's logic, but it felt like a half decent attempt to read someone. but seems very oppotunistic from vivax.
BTW, this game's Vivax is 100% different to my last game with them. does anyone else have that vibe off them?

@ crescent - your post 805 - it felt like it was agreeing with post 797that was scum reading Lowell

im lazy and just gonna omgus
VOTE: Fred

i hate this slot

I also hate Enchant

i'm going to VOTE: Firebringer though i dont think anyone else is really going to go that way. but Fred and Enchant are eminently worthy of being voted off too.

You give Fred a naughty point for voting Fire, then.. You also vote Fire?

This feels contradictory.

[Crescent]

Gooooood morning scum butts.

I am going to sleep, but I will catch up soonish!

Xoxo

Cat naps <3

I'm a kitty too. I'm cute and cuddly and princessy and stuff <3

[Crescent]

Hey,

Mala

! You're in luck, because you have until Day 3 to produce content, otherwise I will be voting to eliminate you out as a policy (as I would have had Dwlee99 not been replaced).

xoxo

This is kinda why I took immediate exception to Fred townclearing them for "solving". DWlee was so inactive and useless that multiple people probably had sentiment like this. It really gave me the impression he's not really reading the game while giving out these reads.

[Crescent]

Was starting to doubt Fredrick scum a little bit after reading some of his past games, but his latest posts have made me feel more confident again. 1013 is a very weak gotcha attempt on someone that he has previously had as one of his strongest townreads. Or, at least, one of his most talked-about townreads. Which, incidentally, is another thing I have an issue with: he very rarely ever differentiates between the strength levels of his reads in the way that I would expect a town player to do. There's no nuance or higher-level thinking, he simply notes down a basic reason like "solving" and then puts them in the list of his townreads with everyone else.

I specifically called him out like... 24+ hours ago that his logic for calling me town only made sense if he's scum. It's like he's only now acknowledging it.

But to frame it that way completely ignores that I started this day with a POE that included MT, Unsure, and yourself. It also ignores that I've pursued lines of inquiry against both MT and Unsure today. MT I have softened on some, because I don't believe scum in his position is in any rush to try to clear Lowell. It fits in with my earlier criticism of the read on DWLee - I don't think he's actually reading the game. He's just picking out singular spots and making blanket mindless statements based on them. Nothing he does gives me any sense that he is actually trying to "solve" the game.

But yeah I don't see you and Fred being scum together at this point.

On an interesting note, two of the only people he's not blanket "townreading" are two people who have gradually eroded in my eyes today - Fire and Enchant. I feel like neither player has contributed much of anything to the game today, and they came out of their personal exchange both looking worse. If I had to bet, there's exactly one scum in the tiny list of people he's refusing to arbitrarily clear. This obviously isn't anything based on actual logic though - Just intuition.

Imma probably die tonight after we get a red flip from Fred anyway so might as well get the thought out there.

[Crescent]

tis game is dying a death, second game in a row

tis game is dying a death, second game in a row

Today is officially my first day back to work and good lord this might actually be even more inactive than 2273 was, as even the replacement has done nothing. I'm not going to be here to keep the game afloat with like 800 posts this time.

Honestly the game showed signs of dying day 1 as well when Meg's train stalled out and almost no one was posting content anymore. Biggest reason I put him -1 to begin with was hoping to de-stagnste the game.

Now we have a guy at -2 and 3 prods zzz

[Crescent]

No hammering with a replacement that has one post and hasn't shown up in 33 hours.

[Crescent]

(It was a good unvote by Enchant for that reason)

[Crescent]

Idk it's more telling that Fred is town.
Lolvote townie to e-1 is fast obvs, but who wants to cast finally vote.and get blamed?

Fred, like Meg, hovered at -2 for quite a while before going -1.

Why is it telling of anything?

[Crescent]

For the record:

Fred was put -2 by Owen's vote approximately 33 hours ago. Fred was -2 for most of approximately 25 hours before being pushed to -1.

Meg was -2 for most of approximately 32 hours at one point before I put Meg -1 for good.

Why does this pattern specifically indicate Fred is town?

[Crescent]

I have a

very

unsettling feeling and I'm going to turn everything I've said today on it's head for a moment.

My mafia senses are telling me Enchant is scum. Enchant immediately voted MT (a super easy vote to make, and scum did the same thing in 2272), but as MT was losing momentum, naked voted Fred when the votes were split 4/3/3. The exchange with Fire was also bad. What that kind of doesn't look like though? A bus vote. Also, where was Enchant yesterday? The bad Bugspray train.

It's pinging me like crazy is he just made a terrible excuse to get off of the vote, that also completely goes against what happened yesterday (where the player this same pattern happened on actually was scum). The reason he unvoted does not feel like a town reason. It feels manufactured. This doesn't feel like a bus vote on Fred and an odd late unvote because they're scum together - This feels like Enchant helping push the wagon forward, then finding an excuse to get off of it so he won't be on it when it flips

green

And that would make Fred

town

, that's just played like total ass.


UNVOTE: Fred

I need to think.

[Crescent]

I know I would have unvoted in Enchant's situation in a heartbeat.

Anyway, sore throat began about 13 hours ago. Fever began 2 hours ago, I'll go back to sleep

Let's go down this rabbit hole a bit more and say that my last post actually was right.

You were -1 for 8 hours. Enchant voted you at a critical time in the game (A 4-3-3 vote split) for absolutely no reason (Enchant has voted you twice this game and given reasons for neither).

But the interesting thing is... Compare Gera's unvote on Meg at -1 to Enchant's unvote on you at -1. Gera unvoted to give Meg more time to speak. A simple, plain reason. Enchant invented a reason that flat out contradicts Meg's train yesterday. The reason is forced, and only exists as an excuse to unvote you, when no reason was ever given to vote you in the first place.

This is often the difference between town unvoting and scum unvoting.

[Crescent]

I know I would have unvoted in Enchant's situation in a heartbeat.

Anyway, sore throat began about 13 hours ago. Fever began 2 hours ago, I'll go back to sleep

Let's go down this rabbit hole a bit more and say that my last post actually was right.

You were -1 for 8 hours. Enchant voted you at a critical time in the game (A 4-3-3 vote split) for absolutely no reason (Enchant has voted you twice this game and given reasons for neither).

But the interesting thing is... Compare Gera's unvote on Meg at -1 to Enchant's unvote on you at -1. Gera unvoted to give Meg more time to speak. A simple, plain reason. Enchant invented a reason that flat out contradicts Meg's train yesterday. The reason is forced, and only exists as an excuse to unvote you, when no reason was ever given to vote you in the first place.

This is often the difference between town unvoting and scum unvoting.

[Crescent]

mala not returning since her first post isn't good for her chances of being town

Especially given the virtual nothingness of the player before her. No way is this day allowed to end without her doing

something

.

[Crescent]

Oh also if this rabbit hole I'm going down is right, Prince rockets immediately to the very top of my scumlist.

[Crescent]

And also I forgot to even mention this separate part that was on my mind. While I generally don't believe in them from "stronger" players, I'm also wondering if Enchant perspective slipped when giving his bad reasoning for unvoting. We had a "lolhammer" on Meg and it hit scum. Enchant immediately voted the player who did it.

Why is Enchant acting like whoever hammers Fred would be

Idk it's more telling that Fred is town.
Lolvote townie to e-1 is fast obvs, but who wants to cast finally vote.and get

blamed

?

Blamed? What if Fred is scum? This post seems to be flat out insinuating Fred is town.

[Crescent]

What happened to not being in the right state of mind to reach a conclusion?

[Crescent]

So Bugspray claimed for absolutely no reason to start the day, and is now inactive for over 3 days and has to be replaced.

Excellent player.

[Crescent]

Oh now that's a jump in player quality.

[Crescent]

Is that better or worse than mashed?

[Crescent]

ayo the pizza here

Just read the ISO of your slot please and tell me it wasn't all bo-shite.
I'm town so you won't have to call me baked potato-brained this game.

yeah it's real
bit upset bugspray just dropped trow so completely, last time I repped into a slot like theirs I at least had room to bluff

Bugspray was a waste of a player slot who effectively claimed to go LOOK AT ME I'M IMPORTANT and was otherwise just a somehow worse version of NM. What a joke.

I find it kinda nuts that people were still entertaining them being scum after their claim, and given they were such a bad counterwagon yesterday. Still going after them kinda feels like something scum might shy away from doing actually, just because it looks so bad.

[Crescent]

And yeah I've been townreading Vivax from the very start of the game pretty much. I'm less enthused about Owen immediately voting Vivax for it, and only 80 posts later giving a reason why, for reasoning I don't like. Vivax was figuring it out on his own regardless of whether I pointed it out or not.

Kinda the only reason I ever gave Owen any sort of clear is thinking Fred is scum, and Fred's interactions with Vivax and Owen look like scum provoking two town.

If I've been wrong about Fred, it influences several of my reads. He would certainly be one of them.

[Crescent]

Greetings!

Hello Everyone.

No witty entrance post?

Enchant

confscum.

VOTE: Enchant

honestly a pretty viable read
if enchant comes off as a wet towel this game I will be pushing for his death

Enchant has done very very little and the reason behind their recent unvote on Fred after naked voting him to 5 when votes were split 4-3-3 reeks of scum finding a bad excuse to get off of green flip. You can see on the previous page everything I've pointed out concerning this.

But yeah there is almost nothing in that ISO that is actually content. There are a fair amount of naked votes, though. DWLee's only action of the entire game was voting him for "trying too hard", which is still perplexing.

[Crescent]

I'm going to work soon but I decided to have some fun with it and make a small chart.

Fred is town:

Enchant and Prince are both very likely scum. For #4, I would look at Owen first. Also, Fire and MT would need pressure to contribute more.

Fred is scum:

Remember Enchant, Prince, and Owen? Yeah they're all probably town in this scenario. Take a hard look at Mala and Unsure. Honestly Fire and MT still need pressure to contribute more in this scenario too.


Andante, Gamma, Gera, Lowell, and Vivax are probably all town regardless. Lowell could be super-chaotic scum, or Andante/Meg could have done something really messed up, but those are niche possibilities that don't stand out at present.

Side note: I feel like Greeting pretty blatantly attempted to pocket me earlier today, and he also left both Bugspray and Lowell in his POE, which MT notably did not. If there's any "Wild Card" that wouldn't surprise me to see turn out scum in either scenario, it's him. I'll likely be dead long before the game gets to this point, but if all the more "obvious" scum candidates are gone, and there's still a scum left, look at this guy. If anyone is a "Deepwolf" candidate to me, it's Greeting.

[Crescent]

I'm considering geraintm for scum pile maybe.
I just don't get any intention to solve from him, mostly a bunch of case-like posts that seem aimed at pointing out oddities and scummities, and weird pop-ins from time to time.

For the love of all that is holy I can we not no-elim on day 1

Yes!
Let's do this!
Brewster's Millions style!

And this post is so hype that it'd be a decent opportunity to pass along a read on FP along the way, but nah.

tis game is dying a death, second game in a row

Comments like this tend to come from mafia.
Especially with this followup.

i would push the Fred wagon over the edge, but ther eis no way we should be ended today right now. we will end up with the situation where a bunch of players cruise through to day 4 or whenever with no content whatsoever.

There's no reason to assume the game is dying if the wagon on Fred is rolling and you declare intent to complete it. Unless you know it's a mislaunch.
Yolo

VOTE: geraintm

Except he didn't declare an intention to complete it? He said he wants to, but he knows we have to wait for people like Mala to actually show up and do something.

[Crescent]

That's the point of being a "Deepwolf".

I would not kill any of those players before I killed Greeting at this present time.

[Crescent]

Though I would say the possibility is more likely if Fred is town, because it makes it more likely Unsure is town as well.

If they're both town, he's essentially tunneling a town counterwagon to a leading town train, while passively defending said town vote leader, but not really attempting to stop it's momentum. He's like, exactly where I'd want to place myself as scum if Fred and Unsure are both town - This looked perfectly set up to vote them off back to back.


I don't scum read him, but I also don't trust him.

[Crescent]

Also I've got to get to work so no time to even think of doing anything rash.

[Crescent]

I have a small amount of time before I enter the cold abyss and basically go dead to the world for a couple of hours, and I want to quickly sum up some thoughts.

I have reasons to scumread both Fred and Enchant, but don't think they're scum together.

I think knowing Fred's alignment will significantly help towards solving the game.

I believe an Enchant scumflip virtually townclears Fred, and we get his alignment anyway, but we don't get much at all from am Enchant townflip.

I generally don't play "spicy", but I didn't play spicy in 2273, and then Corwin threw a solved game.

Time to freeze weeeee

[Crescent]

Isn't Fred -2 again after Vivax voted him?

[Crescent]

Oh wait Lowell's vote also moved off of him.

Fred dropped all the way from -1 to -4 huh.

[Crescent]

The game was dying. We had 2 replacements out for inactivity and thr game just seems paused as even the replacements come in and claim they'll jot be posting any time soon.

wtf??? Where did I say I wouldn’t be posting?

You already have about half as many posts in the game as the two people who got replaced today did all game!

[Crescent]

What's wrong?

[Crescent]

Not really that spicy, considering I already said you

both

ended up looking worse out of that exchange. Snippet from post 1018:

On an interesting note, two of the only people he's not blanket "townreading" are two people who have gradually eroded in my eyes today - Fire and Enchant. I feel like neither player has contributed much of anything to the game today, and they came out of their personal exchange both looking worse.

[Crescent]

If laughing is weird, then that interaction is very weird.

I'm weird.

BUT DAMNIT I'M CUTE.

[Crescent]

If laughing is weird, then that interaction is very weird.

I'm weird.

BUT DAMNIT I'M CUTE.

Yeah that‘s not mutually exclusive and often synonymous
Can make one a bit reclusive though

Oh I know. My weirdness adds to my cuteness.

...And I can be rather reclusive at times.

[Crescent]

I don't drink alcohol so not me!

Also... Mala might seriously need to be replaced out. That slot is bad.

[Crescent]

Here's the issue I have with voting Mala right now based on the notion that Fred is town. A Mala flip basically doesn't tell us anything.

If Fred is town, there is an over 90% chance Enchant is scum. If Enchant is scum, Mala's chances of being town go up a little based on DWLee's actions.

Let's sum up Enchant even further now that we've seen more: He unvotes for an awful reason, that also seems to slip knowledge that Fred is town, and has a terrible reaction in response to the scrutiny. On top of this bad reaction, he never makes any effort whatsoever to explain why it suddenly made Fred "town" in the first place, which was the very first thing I asked.

Then he just says **** it, and naked votes Fred

for the third time this game

.


Prince's logic for a Fred vote is pretty solid, I'll give him that, but I still hold that Enchant feels like scum who followed this pattern:


A. Hopped from lazy pre-planned wagon (MT) to town wagon (Fred) as MT's wagon was fading off.

B. Found a bad excuse to get off of Fred's wagon so as to not be caught on a town flip.

C. Reacted poorly under the scrutiny of this unvote, but wouldn't actually address why it stuck out as bad. Gave no reason for why this made Fred town.

D. Saw Fred's train suddenly losing steam, and contradicted himself by jumping back onto a guy he just called town for absolutely no reason... With a vote made for absolutely no reason.


This doesn't feel remotely like town progression, and it seems far too ill timed at times and awkward at others to be a bus.

[Crescent]

I drunk water and look what i become.

Some troller on mafiascum.

Seems town to me though.
This is just too funny to be mafia. Or should I have said weird.
At least for today, can we not vote ench? Worth keeping your post in mind tho.

I couldn't care less about funny and you know it.

I will vote Enchant before I vote Fred. Enchant blatantly contradicting himself by re-voting Fred basically solidified that for me.

[Crescent]

A Mala flip basically doesn't tell us anything.

Ewwww gross. Never argue this.

If we vote off Mala and get a town flip, we essentially outright wasted the day to learn absolutely nothing. A scum flip tells us very little, but at least it's a scum flip. Either way, day 3 ends up a copy of day 2 and the game stagnates even harder.

It's why I was constantly against policy voting NM in 2273, despite him wasting a player slot the entire game. I was only interested in resolving him if we just had nothing better to do.

We have two potential votes that are far better than a policy vote at the moment.

[Crescent]

My personal stance on policy votes is to either do them at the end of a day you just have no idea what to make of, or do them quickly in a day once everyone's chimed in so they don't stall out the game.

If Mala doesn't do anything today, I'm all for ending day 3 in 2 days or less and just quickly removing that slot from the game.

[Crescent]

Meg and Fred cross-protecting each other is why I started this day on Fred's ass to begin with. I even indicated that I thought they were potentially scum together day 1. I know Prince makes sense.

Enchant has singlehandedly made me question things, as his last 30 or so hours are easily the scummiest progression of posts any player has made all game, and it's not even close.

I have reasons to think both are scum, but also reasons to think they'd not scum together. It's not pleasant.

[Crescent]

DWLee doesn't strike me as the "lazy bus" type, but correct me if I'm wrong. I could easily be wrong on that.

[Crescent]

Here's the issue I have with voting Mala right now based on the notion that Fred is town. A Mala flip basically doesn't tell us anything.

If Fred is town, there is an over 90% chance Enchant is scum. If Enchant is scum, Mala's chances of being town go up a little based on DWLee's actions.

Let's sum up Enchant even further now that we've seen more: He unvotes for an awful reason, that also seems to slip knowledge that Fred is town, and has a terrible reaction in response to the scrutiny. On top of this bad reaction, he never makes any effort whatsoever to explain why it suddenly made Fred "town" in the first place, which was the very first thing I asked.

Then he just says **** it, and naked votes Fred

for the third time this game

.


Prince's logic for a Fred vote is pretty solid, I'll give him that, but I still hold that Enchant feels like scum who followed this pattern:


A. Hopped from lazy pre-planned wagon (MT) to town wagon (Fred) as MT's wagon was fading off.

B. Found a bad excuse to get off of Fred's wagon so as to not be caught on a town flip.

C. Reacted poorly under the scrutiny of this unvote, but wouldn't actually address why it stuck out as bad. Gave no reason for why this made Fred town.

D. Saw Fred's train suddenly losing steam, and contradicted himself by jumping back onto a guy he just called town for absolutely no reason... With a vote made for absolutely no reason.


This doesn't feel remotely like town progression, and it seems far too ill timed at times and awkward at others to be a bus.

crescent's posts area always very consistent, this game and the last. if they can fake this as scum then i am impressed.

Meow.

Can and have, to be fair. Though, I still have no idea what it's like to be scum here so it's possible I could be obvious as hell my first scum game given I haven't been scum in like 2 1/2 years and this format already messes with my natural way of metaing games some. There may be a growing pains kinda game.

Probably the biggest key to my scumgame is... Outside of claiming, I really don't lie. Like I mentioned in my last game, I let my town game get naturally scummier and more honest to make my scum game harder to detect, and I feel like it made me a better player as both town and scum. I basically fly in the face of a significant amount of conventional WIFOM because my range is gigantic and often has nothing to do with my alignment.

This is the third time you and Gamma have been in a game with me, so it makes sense you're starting to see the natural consistency I play with. My treatment towards Mala in this situation is identical to my treatment of NM in the situation we had in 2273, and will be how I generally regard it no matter what my role or alignment is... But if I'm totally messed up in the head at the time, that can directly influence me. There will probably be a game where I just say **** it and kill the waste of a player spot early and in that game I will probably be town in a bad headspace.

Also, I'm a kitty. Meow.

[Crescent]

But anyway the moral of the story is: If Fred flips Green and I die tonight please murder Enchant tomorrow.

Thank you.

[Crescent]

You really think a lot about that game don't you.
Wouldn't mind seeing how you play scum at some point.

I have been in 3 games so far and I can still remember a significant amount of all of them, including the arguments I made on any given day, and roughly when I made those arguments.

...I may not be able to find where I put something down 3 minutes ago, but my memory is that good. These games lasting so much longer than my norm is giving them even more staying power in my head.

[Crescent]

I scumread DWLee and Gera for a significant amount of 2272, but ultimately came to the conclusion that both were town. Gamma ended up getting actually towncleared, but I remember not trusting them either early on. Called me town so early in the game it gave me the willies.

I identified Gera late day 2 as the player scum was trying to vote off, and DWLee in my first post of day 3 as super scummy town that was just wrong on virtually everything in what may have been the best wall post I have ever written in all my years playing mafia. It's so random if and when I wall post, as it just comes completely on a whim, and I can do it as both alignments. I did it day 3 in my last scum game.

[Crescent]

I'm very docile by nature and the composed often passive way I address games of mafia is pretty par from the course for my personality.

Getting super aggressive in a mafia game will actually cause me to physically tremor because I can't handle it on a sustained basis. I have to pick and choose my spots to really go on the attack.

[Crescent]

I'm very docile by nature and the composed often passive way I address games of mafia is pretty par from the course for my personality.

Getting super aggressive in a mafia game will actually cause me to physically tremor because I can't handle it on a sustained basis.

I have to pick and choose my spots to really go on the attack.

Like on full moons?

I'm not a werewolf. I'm a kitty.

Meow.

[Crescent]

Who do you want to vote?

[Crescent]

It has been 89 hours since Mala replaced near-total inactive DWLee, and Mala themselves has 4 posts and still no content. Kinda hard to build a scum case when both players in that slot have amounted to nothing.

Kinda do feel like we have a fair amount of people who kinda just.. Don't really care who we flip today.

Fred's probably just gonna flip VT and Enchant is going to laugh in the background as he does but I'm kinda just done arguing today. Feels like I'm talking to 5 people in a game with 15 players.

[Crescent]

That was sure a rush of votes on Mala.

Yeah people are tired and just want to kill

something

MT popping in after over 36 hours of inactivity to naked vote Fred does not give me good feelings by the way.

[Crescent]

Oh and Lowell still probably isn't scum because I feel like scum wouldn't be so obvious in not actually caring who we flip today.

[Crescent]

I’m still not opposed to yeeting UNO though… “just post more to not die” is like… really?

I'm not enthused by Owen at all this game, but I think there's only a high chance he's scum if Fred is town. The way they've approached each other has been misleading in Fred's case, and hasn't felt like a bus in Owen's case.

[Crescent]

I don't have any strong case to make on MT. Him calling Lowell town earlier today townvibed me, as Lowell strikes me as the kind of anti-town vibing town player scum loves to go after. This player was Gera in 2272.

..But going inactive for 36 hours only to immediately naked vote with no content on return doesn't vibe so well with me.

MT probably won't end up in my top remaining scum regardless of how this day goes, but he remains in my POE. He's a high priority solve, there just isn't much there to actually solve with.

[Crescent]

Fire is reminding me of 2273 me where I was totally exasperated town at how useless most of the game was being.

If that game didn't happen I'd probably be angrier at this one.

[Crescent]

And in shows in his post count too, given he went from middle of the pack to third highest poster in the game.

Yeah I'm not interested in pursing Fire at the moment. Why is Fred calling him scum again?

[Crescent]

So let's see. He votes Fire because he's apparently townreading almost the entire game, even though half the reasons were shit, and he later admits some of them were shit. Then he votes Enchant after I argue Enchant is scumm and says they're both scum because of the bad interaction they had. I agree it was bad, but I feel like he's stretched for reasons to find most of the game town, but Fire would've been

much[/i[ less of a stretch to call town than say, DWLee. My first thought going into the day on Fire was that scum probably doesn't act that way with Pooky on a bus. This alone is a better reason to townread Fire than over half the reasons he gave for other people. I have no actual clue why he is tunneling in on Fire, and can find no particularly good reasons for it.

What Fire did with Meg alongside Pooky generally isn't ever a bus.

Lord this ISO is such a joke to re-read in general. There's almost nothing of any value in these posts, and there's 114 of them.

[Crescent]

Firebringer I have felt at times could have an agenda. They seem perfectly capable of sheeping Pooky on a correct scumread in order to bus and then pivot that into a nightkill on Pooky

and then attempting to take control of a mostly apathetic game.

I don't think I actively scumread anything they've posted, but their positioning concerns me. Could easily be scum with Malcolm, as 1035 feels lightly partnered to me.

id rather this not be an apathetic game than me leading it. Also leading this game feels like a trying to rally a bunch of stray cats with no catnip available.

i would have to yell at the top of my voice to move this crowd. I am not going to do that even if ive been annoyed at how little my voice has been heard/ignored/dismissed

Not worth it. Also as a high level point why would I kill pooky if all i did was sheep him and pooky didn't think i was scum at all? I mean i guess pooky is worthy kill because influential/strong town voice? I mean i don't even know if thats how he is perceived in general by players in this game. Seems you do. I never really looked at how pooky perceived by everyone. I assumed pooky killed because scum didn't see him as viable mislim.

On that note I still have 0 idea why Pooky died, as the dude had 60 posts and almost all of them were total fluff with no substance. There isn't even any indication of who he reads, and he didn't seem at all convinced Meg was scum. It felt like the vote was there for funsies.


It's struck me as an odd kill all day.

Oh and yeah in 2273 I tried to yelling at the top of my voice thing, all it did was get the one town who tunneled on me all game to tunnel on me even harder because he so desperately wanted me to be scum that he didn't actually care about my alignment - He just wanted to shut me up.

When players don't care, they don't care. Yelling is more effective in my usual 48/24 format than it is when you have 10 days to decide anything.

[Crescent]

Also... Meow.

Where's the catnip!?