i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.

Both are likely biased in their assessments, but Ranger's has more of an agenda of pushing one narrative while sweeping another under the rug.

Yes but in both scenarios NM is scum.

So we do NM, titus kills ranger, rangee kills QO (what did they claim that can do that?) amd we clear all those problems and probably win?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like that is where the scum is IMO. At most 1 remaining outside of that. Well, SK possibles...

[Prince of Paterson]

Agreed, that most likely results in a win. I have at least 3 questions that I'm waiting on Titus to answer first, though.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm in no rush, to be clear. I'm trying to read up on this game I magically find myself in incase I need to solve this after today. Assuming I'm alive after today.

[Not_Mafia]

I'm town though

[Prince of Paterson]

Not_Mafia, who do you think is scum?

[Not_Mafia]

Ranger

[imaginality]

I have thoughts on the mech stuff but as per Prince's request will hold off discussing until Titus replies.

[Ranger]

I'd like any claims of people who visited Ranger's n1 or n2 "targets".

I've no reason to lie about targets or role; you know this.

Lying risks getting caught. My role is real, my targets are real. My alignment you can question. My role/targets I've zero incentive to lie about.

There's probably more mech than that but Mama Bear is tired.

I could've sworn Titus uses this phrase almost exclusively as scum.

We need to track these guns and kills.

Let's suppose for a moment that every gun was successfully given and hit it's target despite no one claiming guns. We have an extra kill night 1 as no guns were given. N2 has no extra kill. Scum have a compulsive disloyal doctor. If third party was aiming for scum, but hit the compulsive target, then this explains the missing n2 kill. It also could be 3p bulletproof.

Where is the idea of guns coming from? None of the flipped scum have that power.

Enchant has died. they were a mafia multitasking

gunsmith

| compulsive disloyal inventor.

Enchant was a gunsmith.

Separately, Enchant was a compulsive disloyal inventor.

Nowhere is guns being given mentioned.

So, Titus, let me ask you again;

Where are you getting the idea of guns being given?

It's certainly not from any flipped information available to the town.

[Ranger]

that actually makes ranger a likely scum partner for not_mafia, or mafia thought ranger was 3p already and needed her to achieve their wincon

I've called Not_Mafia scum for the entire game.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I've called Enchant scum the entire game as well.

[Ranger]

@Ranger you said something about the neighbourhood thread basically proves you are town, not simply proves you non-mafia-but-could-be-third-party, is that correct?

Well, nothing there proves I'm not 3p, but as town I'm not inclined to say "proves me not-scum". If I were actually 3p I'd have likely said "proves me not mafia", but since I'm town, the thought of me being plausible 3p never occurred so an interaction proving I'm not mafia was, to me, an interaction proving I'm town.

[Ranger]

I will personally reject any and everything that happened in the neighborhood thread that could be scum theatre, in fact I'm scumreading ranger twice as hard just because she apparently had some interaction with mathblade during night.

The interaction is one which would have been in the scum PT if we shared one. It's one which served no purpose. There was no theater involved; there was no pocketing the neighborhood members involved. It was discussing of how to work together, how to coordinate, etc. Given every single night death was a member of the neighborhood, that also serves as proof of lack of scum theater.

There's only three players from the neighborhood left alive. StD and MT were members who died N1, meaning less members to do theater with. CSF and bianco were members who died N2, meaning less members to do theater with. I killed HighPrincessErinys, another member of the neighborhood, reducing the number of players who would see the theater.

If it was theater, Gimli, tell me; who was it meant to be theater

for

? The only living members are the furtiveglance slot and the KittyTacky slot.

[Ranger]

Ranger - indecisive combined solo vigilante duet doctor [neighbour] (Ranger didn't state neigbour in the role title when claiming but obviously is in the neighbourhood)

Right, forgot to include that. Neighbor is in fact at the end like that, but I was lazy.

imaginality - night 5 rolecop neigbour*

Speaking of claims though, back to this:

I'd like any claims of people who visited Ranger's n1 or n2 "targets".

When you, imaginality, are a

rolecop

, and have survived this long, why would I

fakeclaim

something which

you could catch

?

I wouldn't. Either you'd be dead (freeing me up to fakeclaim), or I'd tell the truth.

So why is Titus doubting my claim when your very survival is proof I'm not?

[Ranger]

Not including Neighbor in the precise and detailed full claim while listing every other modifier and explaining them in detail may indicate that Ranger's claim was fake. It's an odd omission, and Ranger seems like the type to value completeness.

I hope it's okay to specify I copied it from the neighborhood itself.

I didn't see the need to claim the neighbor part in the neighborhood itself, for obvious reasons.

I simply forgot to add it back in when putting it here. I thankfully remembered to change something which would've made it clear it was copypasted, but having remembered to change that detail, I forgot to include the neighbor part.

[Ranger]

Not including Neighbor in the precise and detailed full claim while listing every other modifier and explaining them in detail may indicate that Ranger's claim was fake. It's an odd omission, and Ranger seems like the type to value completeness.

I hope it's okay to specify I copied it from the neighborhood itself.

I didn't see the need to claim the neighbor part in the neighborhood itself, for obvious reasons.

I simply forgot to add it back in when putting it here. I thankfully remembered to change something which would've made it clear it was copypasted, but having remembered to change that detail, I forgot to include the neighbor part.

If you want a fresh paraphrase from start, the role is town indecisive combined solo vigilante duet doctor neighbor.
I win when no opposite factions live, or that can't be prevented.
Each night, I target a player; if nobody else visits them, I will kill them.
Each night, I target a player; if anybody else visits them, I will protect them.
I'm in a neighborhood, with the nine other players.
I can vote and post in the gamethread.

This is as close as I can get.

[Ranger]

Dropping one single modifier while copying and relaying the accurate role, when the rest of it came with links and descriptions, is a lot more unlikely than forgetting one while composing a fake role. In the former case she is transcribing the role directly from the source, and I don't see why that would result in forgetting one part of it when she was going to efforts to ensure the claim was in full.

The links were added in by me. So was the capitalization. The role was manually typed out, because manual typing makes it harder to get modkilled for the claim being too close to the original.

I didn't type up neighbor when I originally claimed in the neighborhood because it was inside the neighborhood.
I relayed the exact claim I made to the neighborhood to the gamethread, doing the bare minimum to change it just in case of a risk an exact copy-paste would be seen as quoting from a PT. The result was not including the neighborhood out here, because I didn't originally while inside the neighborhood.

[Ranger]

It's possible that she thought it wasn't important, but then again why underline each specific word in the role?

It was taken from the neighborhood and manually typed out there. I didn't include neighbor in the neighborhood because it was

in the neighborhood

.

In the neighborhood I wasn't aiming to get the closest possible paraphrase.

In the neighborhood I was aiming to convey the relevant information.

That's why I used the links. I didn't need to explain the wording of combined (because I linked it) or vig (because I linked it) or doctor (because I linked it) or neighbor (because I was in the neighborhood). I did need to explain Solo/Duo because as far as I know, xyzzy made those modifiers up for this game. (There's no wiki article for them as far as I could tell.)

[Ranger]

my distinct impression was that the moment ranger was threatened by lycanfire, math and N_M immediately jumped on lycan to stop her from becoming a wagon. makes me think that whatever she is, she's crucial to scum winning.

Funny, because I distinctly recall a different lead wagon at the time Not_Mafia executed Lycanfire.

4 players voting for Quiet Owl (HighPrincessErinys, Gimli, imaginality, furtiveglance)

I was not voting for you.
MathBlade was not voting for you.
Enchant was not voting for you.
McMenno was not voting for you.

Quiet Owl had 4 votes on him and none of them are flipped scum.

I agree with the thesis "Not_Mafia executed Lycanfire to save a scum player being wagoned."

It sure doesn't fit as being me!

The scum had enough votes to vote for a Quiet Owl elimination.
Why?

Basic math.

We know there must be at least one scum left alive.
We know Quiet Owl had four votes.
None of the three flipped scum voted Quiet Owl.
It took 8 votes to eliminate.

Do the math. 1+ scum still left alive, plus the three flipped scum, plus the four votes already on Quiet Owl.

The only way this doesn't check out?
If {Gimili, furtiveglance} contains scum.
And if {Gimli, furtiveglance} contains scum, then logically, that means

I cannot be scum

.

By basic math, Quiet Owl is condemning himself while trying to project it as condemnation of me.

[Ranger]

My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.

Mine is based on what actually happened at the time in question.

Votes reset at the daykill.

The game is only

two pages

long from there.

So you can check for yourself.

I started my catch-up here, wanting time to finish it.
Titus asked for us to not end the day here, another request to not rush the day.

Lycanfire's

last post in the game

was 2525. He didn't get to post after that.
I did.

He didn't get a chance to respond to any of 2527, 2528, 2529, or 2530.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2531.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2533.

If I were scum, why did I make effort to reach out to Lycanfire, and have N_M kill him before he could respond?

I made efforts to reach out to Lycanfire. Those were to

Lycanfire

, not to the rest of the town. They were meant to convince

him

, not the rest of the town.

Why would I kill him before I had succeeded?

I also was making an

active effort to catch up

.
I read 30 pages in one day.
The site upgrade prevented me from catching up the next day, but I was intent to catch up on Wednesday January 25th.

If I were scum, why would I have had N_M kill Lycan fire before I could finish?

Either I don't do the reread at all (to prevent spewing scumbuddies),

or

, I finish the reread (to try and town it up).
Cutting the reread off half-way through gives me nothing. It gives the town information if I flip scum, while preventing me from having towned it up (because I didn't finish).

I have no scum motivation to kill Lycanfire

.

Now view that information in the lens of me being town.
Suddenly, a different picture emerges.

HighPrincessErinys voted Quiet Owl in 2535.
Gimli voted Quiet Owl in 2537.
imaginality voted Quiet Owl in 2539.
furtiveglance voted Quiet Owl in 2541.
Per my last readslist in 2533 (what

inspired the Quiet Owl votes in the first place

), I had Quiet Owl as my most likely scum candidate.

Four votes, in

one page

, for Quiet Owl, after I put the sus on him.

MathBlade,

on that same page

, began going after Lycanfire with 2548.
MathBlade

did not vote Quiet Owl

. Instead, he voted Lycanfire in 2549.

If Quiet Owl is town, why did MathBlade vote for Lycanfire instead of Quiet Owl?

Not_Mafia hammered at 2561, preventing me from catching up.
The hammer has an obvious incentive for scum in a town-Ranger world.

I was rereading.
I hadn't finished.
My reread of the entire game would have given information on all slots, start to finish. It represented a threat to the gamestate.
Preventing me from finishing is only +scum in a town-Ranger world.

Furthermore, hammering Lycanfire specifically

prevented Lycanfire from flipping his read on me

.
Lycanfire didn't get a chance to respond to my posts. Those would have given him a chance to change his read on me.
I didn't get a chance to finish my catchup. That would have given me the chance to spew myself town and give a fresh perspective on the game.
Even if Lycanfire didn't townread me off of the content he didn't get to respond to, if I had finished that reread then that provides him a chance to reassess and reevaluate.

Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being shown wrong.
Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being convinced.
Multiple times, Lycanfire said he was willing to wait for me to finish and to judge the information I provided.

Not_Mafia hammering Lycanfire prevented any of that from happening

.

In a town-Ranger world, Lycanfire revising his read on me risked forming a townbloc between Lycanfire and myself.
Further, in a town-Ranger world, Quiet Owl had four votes on him in one page (the

same page MathBlade voted Lycanfire

and the

page before Not_Mafia hammered

), with both myself and Lycanfire off the wagon.

In a town-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to fear letting the day continue;
In a scum-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to

want

the day to continue

.

[Ranger]

My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.

Mine is based on what actually happened at the time in question.

Votes reset at the daykill.

The game is only

two pages

long from there.

So you can check for yourself.

I started my catch-up here, wanting time to finish it.
Titus asked for us to not end the day here, another request to not rush the day.

Lycanfire's

last post in the game

was 2525. He didn't get to post after that.
I did.

He didn't get a chance to respond to any of 2527, 2528, 2529, or 2530.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2531.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2533.

If I were scum, why did I make effort to reach out to Lycanfire, and have N_M kill him before he could respond?

I made efforts to reach out to Lycanfire. Those were to

Lycanfire

, not to the rest of the town. They were meant to convince

him

, not the rest of the town.

Why would I kill him before I had succeeded?

I also was making an

active effort to catch up

.
I read 30 pages in one day.
The site upgrade prevented me from catching up the next day, but I was intent to catch up on Wednesday January 25th.

If I were scum, why would I have had N_M kill Lycan fire before I could finish?

Either I don't do the reread at all (to prevent spewing scumbuddies),

or

, I finish the reread (to try and town it up).
Cutting the reread off half-way through gives me nothing. It gives the town information if I flip scum, while preventing me from having towned it up (because I didn't finish).

I have no scum motivation to kill Lycanfire

.

Now view that information in the lens of me being town.
Suddenly, a different picture emerges.

HighPrincessErinys voted Quiet Owl in 2535.
Gimli voted Quiet Owl in 2537.
imaginality voted Quiet Owl in 2539.
furtiveglance voted Quiet Owl in 2541.
Per my last readslist in 2533 (what

inspired the Quiet Owl votes in the first place

), I had Quiet Owl as my most likely scum candidate.

Four votes, in

one page

, for Quiet Owl, after I put the sus on him.

MathBlade,

on that same page

, began going after Lycanfire with 2548.
MathBlade

did not vote Quiet Owl

. Instead, he voted Lycanfire in 2549.

If Quiet Owl is town, why did MathBlade vote for Lycanfire instead of Quiet Owl?

Not_Mafia hammered at 2561, preventing me from catching up.
The hammer has an obvious incentive for scum in a town-Ranger world.

I was rereading.
I hadn't finished.
My reread of the entire game would have given information on all slots, start to finish. It represented a threat to the gamestate.
Preventing me from finishing is only +scum in a town-Ranger world.

Furthermore, hammering Lycanfire specifically

prevented Lycanfire from flipping his read on me

.
Lycanfire didn't get a chance to respond to my posts. Those would have given him a chance to change his read on me.
I didn't get a chance to finish my catchup. That would have given me the chance to spew myself town and give a fresh perspective on the game.
Even if Lycanfire didn't townread me off of the content he didn't get to respond to, if I had finished that reread then that provides him a chance to reassess and reevaluate.

Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being shown wrong.
Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being convinced.
Multiple times, Lycanfire said he was willing to wait for me to finish and to judge the information I provided.

Not_Mafia hammering Lycanfire prevented any of that from happening

.

In a town-Ranger world, Lycanfire revising his read on me risked forming a townbloc between Lycanfire and myself.
Further, in a town-Ranger world, Quiet Owl had four votes on him in one page (the

same page MathBlade voted Lycanfire

and the

page before Not_Mafia hammered

), with both myself and Lycanfire off the wagon.

In a town-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to fear letting the day continue;
In a scum-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to

want

the day to continue

.

This is why context > blind VCA.

Per blind VCA, you can make the argument of Not_Mafia hammering Lycanfire to save me.
But

the two votes on me came

before

the [o]

FOUR

[/i] votes on Quiet Owl

.
With

that

as the context, it becomes clear. Not_Mafia wouldn't be hammering to save me. I was in no danger; I was actively reaching out to Lycanfire and my only other voter was

the lead wagon

.
Not_Mafia had strong incentive to save

Quiet Owl

.

[Prince of Paterson]

It's possible that she thought it wasn't important, but then again why underline each specific word in the role?

It was taken from the neighborhood and manually typed out there. I didn't include neighbor in the neighborhood because it was

in the neighborhood

.

In the neighborhood I wasn't aiming to get the closest possible paraphrase.

In the neighborhood I was aiming to convey the relevant information.

That's why I used the links. I didn't need to explain the wording of combined (because I linked it) or vig (because I linked it) or doctor (because I linked it) or neighbor (because I was in the neighborhood). I did need to explain Solo/Duo because as far as I know, xyzzy made those modifiers up for this game. (There's no wiki article for them as far as I could tell.)

Not including it when claiming in the neighborhood makes sense, thanks.

[Prince of Paterson]

Your point that Not_Mafia probably is not scum who tried to save you as a partner is also fair.

[Quiet Owl]

my distinct impression was that the moment ranger was threatened by lycanfire, math and N_M immediately jumped on lycan to stop her from becoming a wagon. makes me think that whatever she is, she's crucial to scum winning.

purely based on that frigging weird behaviour, VOTE: Ranger

i think my exact phrasing here is worth taking note of.

[Summon The Phoenix]

The plan of vote Not_Mafia -> Titus blows up Ranger -> Ranger targets Quiet Owl (and no one else does) looks good to me, I think 2-3 scum are in this group (and how many more can there be?). I think Phoenix and I are on the same page wrt voting N_M eventually, but she wants more time to read up first. It feels like that hammer stuff yesterday needs to be resolved for the game to progress.

I'm townreading Prince of Paterson for his recent content more than before.

I'm very confident on Gimli being town.

Imaginality will be resolved by Titus' flip.

KittyTacky should be mechanically town just for his role, as I don't think xyzy would give Mafia 2 vending roles, but tonally he's not reading as town as before. What do other people think of this, should we treat KT as town for now due to his role? Is FV a role that a third party could have?

My worry(hope?) is that someone won't do what they're told with this plan, but that gives us information tomorrow anyway.

-Summon

[Summon The Phoenix]

my distinct impression was that the moment ranger was threatened by lycanfire, math and N_M immediately jumped on lycan to stop her from becoming a wagon. makes me think that whatever she is, she's crucial to scum winning.

purely based on that frigging weird behaviour, VOTE: Ranger

i think my exact phrasing here is worth taking note of.

Which words/phrases justify this egregious act of self-quoting?

-Summon