Mini Theme 2290: Open ChatGPT - Game Over

[imaginality]

One of the players in my game has made the following opening post. Please advise on whether you believe this post to be more likely made by town or by mafia, and why.

The post is:

Spoiler: Post 19

An error occurred. If this issue persists please contact us through our help center at help.openai.com.

*smacks Porkens*

Did that help?

Greetings players,

I am Porkens, and I am a member of the Town. My goal in this game is to work with my fellow Town players to uncover the Mafia and bring them to justice.

As an uninformed Town player, I have an advantage that I believe may give me an edge in this game. I will be using ChatGPT, a language model developed by OpenAI, to analyze what each player says and make my own posts. I understand that this may seem like borderline cheating, but the moderators have given me permission to use this tool to help me in the game.

To the Mafia, I apologize if this seems unfair, but I believe that this tool will help me make informed decisions and better understand the dynamics of the game. I will be using ChatGPT to analyze player behavior, patterns of speech, and more, in an effort to identify the Mafia and keep the Town safe.

Grandpa Mo, KittyTacky, Email Tweet, Dei Ex Machina, Defective Agency, Doctor Drew, Narrow Parking, Titus, Menalque, Imaginalty, Bloodb0t, and Biancospino, let us work together to uncover the truth and bring an end to the corruption that the Mafia seeks to sow.

I would like to note that this post was generated by ChatGPT with minimal prompting from me. The thoughts and words expressed here are not entirely my own, but rather a combination of my input and the model's understanding of the situation.

Based on the content of this post, it's difficult to definitively say whether the player is town or mafia. However, there are some elements that may suggest that the player is more likely to be town:

They mention their goal as being to work with the other town players to uncover the mafia.
They state that they believe using ChatGPT as a tool to analyze player behavior is an advantage for the town.
They express a willingness to work with other players, and they name some players specifically in the post.
It's worth noting that in Mafia, players often pretend to be a certain alignment (town or mafia) even if they are actually the opposite, in order to mislead the other players and avoid suspicion. So, this post alone may not be enough to determine the player's true alignment.

[imaginality]

@BloodB0t, the way that chess game shows pieces in the wrong places is like some demonic incestuous offspring of chess, checkers and time travel. If the intent is to gain advantage by making everyone else's heads ache then job done!

@Drew not sure I'd go as far as policy limming a hydra, but I do like the idea of putting hydras under pressure early as I always find them hard to read.

VOTE: Defective Agency

[imaginality]

/ \ /
( ) ( )
\ / \ /
/ /

ChatGPT is even worse at drawing hands than playing chess.

[imaginality]

My vote on the hydra was rvs in that I didn't have any reason to vote them based on play (it was page 1!) but motivated in that I dislike playing with hydras. I just find them hard to read (also because I generally don't know the meta of the players in them) plus some of them post too much.

So I figure seeing how they react to a wagon on them could help with reading them plus given the choice between catching a scum solo player and a scum hydra I'd rather the latter.

Never heard of Doctor Drew or the running joke.

I don't see posting chatGPT answers as copying Porkens' gimmick in this particular game (if Porkens does that in other games then it would be if someone does it there).

I am also staggered Defective Agency thought I was being serious with that chatGPT post or in general (until now). I have a hard time believing they genuinely believed that. My vote stays.

[imaginality]

The submit button doesn't warn you of new posts? Has that changed since the upgrade?

Sorry biancospino, I would've waited for Doctor Drew's reply to you if I saw your post first.

[imaginality]

The subplot where on one side, ChatGPT/Porkens says its suspicious for players to cast doubt on ChatGPT -- and on the other, bloodb0t finds Porkens suspicious for practically assimilatign with the AI, seems notable. I don't like bloodbot's repeated insistence against ChatGPT which feels ultimatley like a distraction to me. Like it mostly goes without saying that ChatGPT isn't exactly sherlock holms yet bloodb0t seems to feel the need to discredit it anyway. Poor learning model

On that front, some musings:

Do you think 96 is a direct neutral chatGPT output or is it
Porkens' own content in chatGPT style (perhaps rephrased by chatGPT), or chatGPT told to argue a specific view?

If it's the latter:

Do you think continuing to mix chatGPT and their own content (if Porkens were to continue to do so) is scummy, towny or NAI?

Bonus thought: compare and contrast playing using chatGPT as support (either for private discussion or for content generation) with playing in a hydra


Not really directed at anyone, just musing.

[imaginality]

Spoiler: chatGPT setup spec

What would make a good distribution of town, mafia, and third party (if any) roles for a 13 player closed setup mafia game?

The optimal distribution of town, mafia, and third party roles for a 13 player closed setup Mafia game will depend on various factors such as the play style of the group, the skill level of the players, and the desired level of difficulty. Here is a possible distribution of roles for a 13 player game:

Town: 8 players (including one cop)
Mafia: 3 players
Third party: 2 players (e.g. a vigilante or serial killer)
This distribution provides a relatively balanced game, with a town majority, a substantial mafia presence, and a small third party presence to add an extra layer of complexity. The inclusion of a cop allows the town to gather information and make more informed decisions, while the third party adds an element of unpredictability that can keep both town and mafia players on their toes.

It's important to note that this is just one example of a possible role distribution, and there are many other variations that can be used to create a fun and challenging game. Additionally, it's important to remember that the role distribution is just one factor that affects the outcome of the game, and the players' individual play styles, decisions, and interactions will also play a significant role in determining the outcome.

Vigilantes are not considered third party roles as they are town aligned. They are power roles aligned with the town.

Please re-answer the question with this taken into account

My apologies for the mistake in my previous answer. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

A good distribution of town, mafia, and third party (if any) roles for a 13 player closed setup mafia game would depend on various factors such as the play style of the group, the skill level of the players, and the desired level of difficulty. Here is a possible distribution of roles for a 13 player game:

Town: 7 players (including one cop and one vigilante)
Mafia: 3 players
Third party: 3 players (e.g. a serial killer, arsonist, or cult leader)
This distribution provides a relatively balanced game, with a town majority, a substantial mafia presence, and a small third party presence to add an extra layer of complexity. The inclusion of a cop and a vigilante allows the town to gather information and take action, while the third party adds an element of unpredictability that can keep both town and mafia players on their toes.

Jeepers!

Let's hope NotMafia really did iterate the setup a bit as per rule 2. ("Balance is not guaranteed, I have attempted to make the game as balanced as possible but am limited by what Open Chat GPT can or will generate.")

Also, an important heads-up to people posting chatGPT content, it used the L-word in its answers to me until I told it not to. Something to watch out for

[imaginality]

Seems like you're caught up... Did anything/anyone stand out for you so far readswise?

[imaginality]

1) imaginality's response to us is +++scum.

How so? Right now I don't feel imaginality has done much that is AI.

@Imaginality, I have been in a hydra in 3 games I played with you and I don’t recall you ever mentioning anything about hydras before?

Also why did you vote us over the other hydra then?

~Ms Drew

It was page 1. Other games I've often not been around for the first several pages (by which point there's usually something game-related to vote someone for), or else had another reason for a random vote. As mentioned I don't have a policy against hydras but not liking them seemed plenty good enough for a page 1 vote here.

I don't whinge about them generally because where's the fun in that? I could happily live without hyperposters too but also don't make a point of complaining about them each game.

[imaginality]

Don't make it like I am trying to discredit Nyx

This seems overly sensitive to how people are perceiving Doctor Drew. Like, not focused on the "misrepresenting me is scummy" angle but the "you might make people suspicious of me" angle?

[imaginality]

My point is it was a bit of a leap on your part to assume biancospino was trying to make you look like you were trying to 'discredit' Nyx given your back and forth with Nyx was about colour choices rather than anything substantive. And that if you really believed biancospino was trying to do that you would be focused on biancospino's scumminess rather than on how they're making you look. Whereas you just said it but didn't follow up further on it.

[imaginality]

How many scums are we thinking because if it's 3 I've already found them all
Maybe not but I've got it down to [Dei Ex Machina, imaginality, narrow parking, Menalque, Porkens]

Should be 3 and one 3p, at least per the queue post.
Also, I somewhat disagree with that list. Are Dei there chiefly just because of their KT vote?

PE: god, that rap was awful

This was already clarified earlier in the thread (119). And Defective Agency has been following the thread, so the "how many scums are we thinking" in the post bianco quoted here seems like a deliberate attempt on DA's part to appear uninformed.

[imaginality]

(For clarity, the Defective Agency post quoted is 185 which is well after it was made clear this is a 9-3-1 setup.)

[imaginality]

My point is it was a bit of a leap on your part to assume biancospino was trying to make you look like you were trying to 'discredit' Nyx given your back and forth with Nyx was about colour choices rather than anything substantive. And that if you really believed biancospino was trying to do that you would be focused on biancospino's scumminess rather than on how they're making you look. Whereas you just said it but didn't follow up further on it.

As I was typing up my response it popped into my head about them discrediting me, I do kinda realize that it was probably more them poking and prodding since it all came to be from me misreading Nyxs post. I got a bit angry about it initially, but let it go when I thought about it since I didn't think it was coming from a scum mindset.

But, one thing I don't understand is why just as you get heat on yourself you are trying to deflect and just trying to find someone to take the heat off of you.

I hardly think a couple of people questioning why I voted a hydra on page 1 is 'heat'. Also, for you to frame it as 'deflection' and imply it's scummy presupposes I'm scum. For me as town, it's just me trying to scumhunt and pointing out something I found suspect. I bet if I had instead just focused on the hydra stuff you'd've said I'm being defensive instead of scumhunting enough lol.

[imaginality]

Porkens is a smart player, and knows there are other smart players in the game. I don't think the presence or absence of the prompts is AI. I can see how switching to using them in response to pressure could be seen as suspicious but from what I saw it was less pressure, more just someone asking them to? I think the people saying that it's a suspicious shift are off the mark.

---

In other news, Defective Agency's case against me is junk.

Spoiler 1 - I'm reasonable. See my play in whatever other games you like. I don't need to make extra effort to try to look reasonable.

Spoiler 2 - classic projection considering they omgussed me

Spoiler 3 - how could I have known how Porkens would post or asked others if it was AI pre-game? If you mean just the bonus thought, it was clearly labelled as such so I accept that paragraph wasn't game advancing content but it was sparked by the parallel discussion of hydras and chatGPT.

Spoiler 4 - "I hadn't checked the setup or seen anywhere that it was 9/3/1" - it was mentioned earlier in the game thread, are you saying you weren't reading the game thread?

---

@Drew last game Titus and I were lovers and she claimed masons (effectively) when I came under pressure early D1

---

I like Doctor Drew and Bloodb0t for town.

---

It strikes me that Titus's reason for not wagoning me could come from scum looking to stay off a town wagon while happy to see it continue (given I don't think people would see her reason for staying off the wagon as a defence of me).

---

Other thoughts a bit later after I let my brain recharge, crazy floods here in NZ means this week is hectic workwise.

[imaginality]

How is pressuring Defective Agency going for you? Do you still want your vote there?

I was hoping for some early wagon pressure but that didn't happen.

Their comment on page 6 or so about my response to them being +++scum left me expecting something better than the case they eventually coughed up. It's flimsy and I have no stats to back this up but feel like hydrae are less likely to tunnel than solo players so therefore it's more likely to be scum motivated. Also possible after games like the last one furtive and I were both in (xyzzy's game) he sees me as an easy D1 mislim candidate which could be a reason for them to be targeting me.

So yeah I'm happy with where my vote is.

My point is it was a bit of a leap on your part to assume biancospino was trying to make you look like you were trying to 'discredit' Nyx given your back and forth with Nyx was about colour choices rather than anything substantive. And that if you really believed biancospino was trying to do that you would be focused on biancospino's scumminess rather than on how they're making you look. Whereas you just said it but didn't follow up further on it.

As I was typing up my response it popped into my head about them discrediting me, I do kinda realize that it was probably more them poking and prodding since it all came to be from me misreading Nyxs post. I got a bit angry about it initially, but let it go when I thought about it since I didn't think it was coming from a scum mindset.

But, one thing I don't understand is why just as you get heat on yourself you are trying to deflect and just trying to find someone to take the heat off of you.

I hardly think a couple of people questioning why I voted a hydra on page 1 is 'heat'. Also, for you to frame it as 'deflection' and imply it's scummy presupposes I'm scum. For me as town, it's just me trying to scumhunt and pointing out something I found suspect. I bet if I had instead just focused on the hydra stuff you'd've said I'm being defensive instead of scumhunting enough lol.

Does this exchange inform your read on Doctor Drew at all?

Made me read them more as town to be honest. The first paragraph of their response felt like a believable towny thought process to me. Their theory about me deflecting was wrong and annoying hence why I pushed back on it, but felt more like the self-confirming thought process townies fall into sometimes than a deliberate scum misrep.

[imaginality]

Hey imag!
What are your reads at rn?
~Janus

Town leans:
Doctor Drew, Dei Ex Machina, Bloodb0t
Menalque
Porkens

Neutral/mixed reads:
biancospino, Morning Tweet

Need more info:
GrandpaMo
Everyone really (no one has done anything super obvscum or obvtown yet)

Scum leans:
narrow parking
KittyTacky
Titus
Defective Agency

[imaginality]

I'm interested to know if there are any reads you think I'm way off base on.

How much consensus / differing opinions is there among your heads readswise?

[imaginality]

Hi, got prodded. The weekend got away on me sorry.

Awake for another hour if anyone's around and wants to discuss or ask anything. Otherwise will be more active tomorrow (8 hrs from now).

@imaginality: Why do you townread me?

[Post]145[/post] would have been a convenient chance to hop on my wagon with a nice fresh reason (if you'd faked agreement with DA's "+++scum" comment about me) but you demurred.

[Post]162[/post] seems like something scum wouldn't go to the effort of pointing out.

[Post]155[/post] seems a bit brazen for scum who might be more likely to think "oh but what if town will see this as a bluff?" whereas for town it's just a funny reaction post to make. Admittedly I could see a sneaky scum hoping it would get read as a bluff but get me limmed before you so wouldn't matter after I flip town, but more likely you're just town here.

Also a bit weaker but 165/206/210 seem a bit like the sort of minor confusions/clarifications I feel like town discuss more often than scum. Like not those specific topics but just it's easier to be confused as town because things are more confusing.

[imaginality]

I don't especially like how GrandpaMo was "at the end of today I'm gonna tell you stuff that town NEED to know" and then more recently "oh it's nothing important not a big deal" but I don't think there's any value in pressing on it now.


Re. my Titus read I feel like she might be soft defending me maybe partly to get me on side and also to set up a "told you so, listen to me instead of going for easy wagons" to have more sway on future days when I flip town if I get limmed.

She feels different this game to the last I was in with her (where she was town) but that could be due to various factors (our roles that game, the fact she was sparring with Mathblade in particular, out of game stuff) so I don't place enough weight on the difference to make a meta case. It just feels less reassuring than it would if she felt the same tonewise.

[imaginality]

I don't especially like how GrandpaMo was "at the end of today I'm gonna tell you stuff that town NEED to know" and then more recently "oh it's nothing important not a big deal" but I don't think there's any value in pressing on it now.


Re. my Titus read I feel like she might be soft defending me maybe partly to get me on side and also to set up a "told you so, listen to me instead of going for easy wagons" to have more sway on future days when I flip town if I get limmed.

She feels different this game to the last I was in with her (where she was town) but that could be due to various factors (our roles that game, the fact she was sparring with Mathblade in particular, out of game stuff) so I don't place enough weight on the difference to make a meta case. It just feels less reassuring than it would if she felt the same tonewise.

This comes off a bit fencesitty.

I have a question, and I definitely don't mean it in an insulting way because I get it and have been there, but are you usually elim bait? And what happened in the game that Titus brought up?

Also was she defending you in that game?

Oh, no offence taken!

I don't really play much so conditions vary depending on outside factors but overall I definitely would say I play pretty weakly on D1 as either alignment and tend to offer more as the game goes on and there's more to analyse. Also my playstyle is less about being in your face and trying to drive wagons overconfidently so again better suited to making cases and pointing stuff out later on.

I would say my scum game is better than my town game. Better to judge for yourself if you want to rather than take my word for it.

I think others' perception of me also suffers slightly from timezones sometimes, as often no one seems to be around when I'm free so there's less of the back and forth more natural style of posting and more of me posting longer posts less frequently.

Morning Tweet's answered the question about the other game already.

[imaginality]

Grandpa Mo's "lim me tomorrow if I'm wrong about narrow parking" seems quite bold for scum? And considering the whole "I have info, oh no I don't" thing also had potential to blow up in his face I'm leaning town on Mo.

I suspect more scum off that wagon rather than on it. The "let's just get things happening" sort of feel to it felt broadly townish in motivation so would have been easy for scum to sit back and let it happen (especially when narrow parking self voted). And we know for sure of one scum who was off-wagon (Morning Tweet).

I'm still happy townbinning Menalque and Dei Ex Machina.

furtive[Defective Agency] is my on-wagon guess.
If there's a second scum on wagon I think it's among biancospino or Doctor Drew rather than Porkens or Grandpa Mo.

Titus and Kitty (in that order) are my off-wagon guesses.

VOTE: Titus

@mod

You still have narrow parking among the list of players not voting.

[imaginality]

VOTE: GrandpaMo

Ok, Porkens & DEM, you seem to have understood what was Grandpa on about. So what was it? I did not grasp that at all

Oh yeah, I also want to know this.

[imaginality]

But no way scum unless that was literally just gamethrowing.

Why would it be more gamethrowing for scum than for SK? I would've thought the opposite?

[imaginality]

You doubted scum would kamikaze and replace out like Mo did. I agree but with scum there would at least be the potential for their buddy to bus them today for some town cred. Compared to SK doing that and either getting shot in the night (if narrow had been scum) or a likely lim today.

I mean I think we agree Mo('s replacement) is likely town regardless. Just don't see why you see Mo's play as more likely to have been SK than scum?

[imaginality]

By 'you' there, I mean Kitty, didn't see it was Porkens who made the 'huh?' post - thought I was replying to Kitty.

[imaginality]

Yeah, but SK doesn't want to be confirmed because they just get shot at night. Unless they're bulletproof or banking on a protective, I guess.

- Nyx

This is what I was missing. I forgot SKs are sometimes bulletproof. I can see that the Grandpa Mo gambit could be a better gamble for a bulletproof SK than for scum. Though I still don't think it's a

good

gamble for either faction which makes this discussion moot I guess.

In other news I was looking at Morning Tweet's posts and she defended Porkens a few times. Though 656 defends Grandpa Mo and expresses slight suspicion on Porkens.

In Morning Tweet's final post she said she likes DEM's towncore of {biancospino,Grandpa Mo,BloodB0t} which given my hunch Mo is town makes me want to squint paranoically at biancospino.

[imaginality]

A summary of people's views of MorningTweet (as detected by searching isos for "Morning", "Tweet", and "MT"), from most townlean to most scumlean:

Dei Ex Machina

- Nyx and Morta both townread MT in 175 and still townlean in 470
Titus - leans town in 670

Grandpa Mo

- no read expressed but did agree with a point MT made

KittyTacky

- no read expressed

biancospino

- no read expressed

Menalque

- no read expressed (

@Menalque

what was the question you were going to ask MT?)

imaginality

- neutral/mixed read in 240

Porkens

- mild suspicion in 203 but downplayed in 243

Defective Agency/furtiveglance

- mild suspicion in furtive's colour coded list 357 though wasn't in furtive's suspects in 185 (also the shift of Porkens, Menalque and Dei Ex Machina all going from the suspect pool in 185 to townread in 357 is interesting)

Doctor Drew

- aaaargh he has Morning Tweet in his signature!! Now I actually have to read through properly fml... okay, Doctor Drew was suspicious of MT in 184 and 234

Overall the main think I take from that is I feel better about Drew being town. The way he put his suspicions of MT seems genuine.

[imaginality]

I've numbered the two posts in question. Anyone reading my comment as you suggest would have to be innumerate.

I also didn't draw any (explicit) conclusions from it. Not sure painting you as "went from slight scumlean to neutral" would be less charitable in any meaningful sense than painting you as "went from neutral to slight scumlean" (at least not without looking at wider context like votecounts at the time etc).

Why did Menalque and BloodB0t go from scumleans to townleans over that period for you? I see you switched on Porkens because of meta but your shift on those other two isn't explained anywhere so I'm curious.

[imaginality]

*Dei Ex Machina, not BloodB0t

[imaginality]

To clarify something else though, that list is ordered by who I thought townread Morning Tweet most, to who I thought scumread Morning Tweet most. It's not in order of my own reads on those players (obviously or else I'd be at the top)

[imaginality]

Agreed we don't want to speedlim Titus before she has had a chance to post, and I think she's at E-2 now? So probably best if others don't join the wagon yet.

[imaginality]

KittyTacky agreeing with me is making me rethink a little.

Wrong account.
Like, did scum!Kitty see me townleaning scum! Titus and figure it might be safe for them to do the same?

- Nyx

There were only a couple of fluff interactions between them on D1 that I can see.
Would scum!Kitty in a {Morning Tweet, KittyTacky, Titus} scum team have pushed back on the GrandpaMo(redff) votes at the start of D2 though?

@Titus what's your read on Kitty?

[imaginality]

This seems like a bit of a side track given there were two kills (and no vig claiming the mafia kill).

If we get two kills again tonight, we can pretty reliably assume the 3rd party is SK and therefore redff isn't an Executioner or whatever other variety of non-SK 3rd party. If we happen to lim the 3rd party today that also makes it moot.

Wondering about the possibility today seems like a waste of words to me.

[imaginality]

I'll be here later today

No matter what timezone, the day is ending.

Maybe E-1 will get some content.

VOTE: Unvote

I still want to hear from Titus before anyone hammers. (Also, not sure what timezone Titus is but it's still the same calendar day as Titus posted that comment for me.)

[imaginality]

Who do you scumread at the moment? Looking through your iso I didn't see you give any scumreads since Porkens early D1 and me mid D1. Since then it's just been townreads I think?

[imaginality]

Anyway, re: Kitty and Titus, I almost think Kitty might have to be town? Someone tell me if my two braincells are onto something here:
- Kitty is scummy.
- Kitty's read on Titus feels like a partner tell and not something a scum does to a townie.

- Gamestate points to town!Titus

.
- Kitty isn't scum.
I guess S/S could still be a thing but it feels kind of unlikely.
Ughhhhh but who even are the mafia if it's not Kitty?
*has existential crisis*

- Nyx

I disagree with the bolded line. I think {Kitty, Titus} is still pretty plausible.

[imaginality]

I was going to add that this post caught my attention, too:

Sorry I had personal issues today that led to me not finding enough time to post.

Who do you scumread at the moment? Looking through your iso I didn't see you give any scumreads since Porkens early D1 and me mid D1. Since then it's just been townreads I think?

Menalque and bianco aren't looking good on a quick re-skim. I specifically don't like the GrandpaMo votes. The replace out indicates that it was town and not scum, and thus the votes are likely opportunistic.

I've had a similar thought about the GrandpaMo votes. Think this is a bit town-indicative because it's a sus on unusual slots. What do people think?

-Morta

Flip side of that, could be scumKT trying to get town points in the event of a GMo town flip.

In a {Kitty, Titus} scumbuddy world this could also be Kitty testing the waters to see if there's interest in a counterwagon on town, given that there seems to be a consensus forming that GrandpaMo(redff) is town. So if Titus isn't going to be today's lim they have to fish for an alternative.

Also just to note here, Kitty said the replace out pointed to GrandpaMo!town - but Menalque voted GrandpaMo

before

the replacement request was made public.

And biancospino's vote in 683 was a pretty low effort vote compared to trying to push the wagon more, looking for a reason to get off the wagon almost.
In a biancospino!scum, GrandpaMo!town world I don't think scum take that approach compared with either push the wagon harder or not vote it in the first place.

So I'm not sure Kitty's framing of Menalque and biancospino's votes as opportunistic makes sense.

[imaginality]

VOTE: Titus

[imaginality]

Hmm. Menalque probably shouldn't fullclaim quite yet though I think it might be necessary in a bit.

I don't know if I believe the claim or not.
876-880 come across as a townie thought progression (of thinking his role meant Kitty was town then realising something and reassessing) and his readslist is in line with mine, but the certainty of the "we're missing a kill" phrase that Drew just quoted pinged me too.

And in particular, I can see a reason mafia (specifically) could come out with a claim like Menalque's. Which is why I think we may need him to full claim in due course.

But let's give everyone else a chance to check in first.

[imaginality]

I don't think it's unreasonable but to be certain enough about it to out yourself to get a lim on someone we were probably going to lim today anyhow is what seems a bit surprising.

[imaginality]

Agreed that the 'us' isn't a scumslip.

[imaginality]

Take KT, Mel, and me out of your lim pools. who's left?

You aren't in my lim pool.

biancospino and redff would be left. Though I have strong doubts about redff being scum. But the only other options are Drew or DEM and I definitely townread them more strongly than redff.

This is a weird thought experiment though. I saw you started today saying you're against a KittyTacky lim, is that based on play or mech reasons?

[imaginality]

I am mechanically certain that KT is town. It's an inconvenient truth.

Are you equally certain Menalque is also town?

[imaginality]

I could explain. Menal could explain. That would give the mafia and 3p a ton of information.

or OR you could all just accept that Menal, me, and KT are locktown and start eliminating the probscums. Which will be what we do anyway if we do reveal, and this way we deny mafia/3p any more infomration.

I can live with not knowing everything but given you could die tonight I want specifically to know if you can rule out Menalque being mafia and Titus having roleblocked KittyTacky. Because that's the scenario I'm wondering about.

In that scenario, either KittyTacky is SK and got blocked, or is town and SK targeted furtive, or there's no SK. So it seems to me this scenario could apply even if you have certainty of Kitty being town.

[imaginality]

Imaginality can you talk me through your doubts on why redFF is scum?

Mainly the GrandpaMo fake guilty on narrowparking gambit seemed more like the sort of daft thing town are more likely to do than scum.

[imaginality]

Okay, that makes sense, sure

Porkens, is your KT clear from last night?

Like I said it’s really mostly gut, but I think I have a very good gut.

This is giving me vibes of Grandpa Mo's push on narrow parking. He was 100% sure, you're 999% sure. He went from mech to gut, seems like you're doing the same.

I also feel wary of how quickly Menalque took your word for KittyTacky being town.

Gonna sleep on this but my gut feels like you're wrong town.

[imaginality]

I don't like having to take Porkens' word. Even if Porkens is right about {Porkens, Menalque, KittyTacky} being town, it feels like redff is being pushed as the easiest alternative. These votes are not exactly convincing:

Spoiler: votes on redff today

I still like VOTE: redFF best out of who’s left

I don't want Menal to explain more about there role, just explain the SK thing, if talking about it outs their role.....they they should shut the fuck up.

But I do really need to hear from kitty.

Pre Edit: Hmm ok(I swear to Christ if there is a Cult situation that I am not involved in, I will be very upset)

VOTE: Red

VOTE: Red

My whole conception of the game kinda crashed down with Titus actually turning out scum. I guess I can sheep the Red wagon.

VOTE: RedFF

ACTUALLY NVM I DONT KNOW WHO LAST MAF IS

UNVOTE

THIS SHOULD GO THO

VOTE: RED

Anyway, I don't trust Porkens about Kitty, but there is more than one evil in this game and I really don't mind this wagon.

VOTE: redFF

E-1.

- Nyx

I don't feel very confident redff is more likely to flip scum than say biancospino? And if we mislim today it could put us in limlo tomorrow (3-1-1 potentially if there are two kills on town tonight).

At the very least let's see what redff has to say in his promised post which by my reckoning is due in the next three hours.

I will give my thoughts tomorrow!

[imaginality]

What are your promised thoughts, redff?
Do you think there's scum on your wagon (or off it for that matter), if so who?
Do you believe Porkens' claim Menalque and Kitty are both town?

[imaginality]

Well, that was underwhelming.

VOTE: redFF

Me: draw me an ascii hammer

ChatGPT: Sure! Here's an ASCII hammer for you:

,#####,
#_ _#
|a ` `a
| u |
\ = /
|\___/|

Me: That looks more like a face? I wanted a hammer

ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion! Here's an ASCII hammer for you:

I apologize for the confusion! Here's an ASCII hammer for you:

,--.!,
_/ -*-
/ | |
| | /---\ |_/ \_\ o | o o | o o| |o'o|
|/ |
' J`

[imaginality]

I'd say yes and yes considering it's 3-1-1 now.

KittyTacky should pick the mass claim order. Arguably should also decide who's limmed today?

I understand why Menalque didn't name his target last night but if we could be certain he targeted biancospino anyhow then that would clear biancospino also. But the "if red then biancospino" in that last post doesn't make me feel entirely confident about that hypothesis.

[imaginality]

Re. Porkens' role: I don't get how a combined cop disloyal vig is different from just a disloyal vig?
Since with a disloyal vig, either the vig shot kills non-town or proves Porkens' target is town if it fails?

[imaginality]

I went into the night feeling like there was a decent chance Menalque was scum. Even with Porkens' shenanigans D3.

With Menalque flipping town I think Dei Ex Machina looks more likely as a scumbuddy for Titus than anyone else remaining, primarily because I doubt the final scum would be on the Titus wagon D2 after Morning Tweet got killed N1. It just seems very high risk to bus Titus and be left as the sole scum that early when there's an SK around. Especially with Titus having a very useful power.

Whereas Dei townread Titus and was off the Titus wagon.

So I lean to Dei Ex Machina as the last mafia. And biancospino or Drew for SK.

[imaginality]

Leaning slightly to Drew being SK. My read on Dei being the last mafia is stronger though.

[imaginality]

I went into the night feeling like there was a decent chance Menalque was scum. Even with Porkens' shenanigans D3.

With Menalque flipping town I think Dei Ex Machina looks more likely as a scumbuddy for Titus than anyone else remaining, primarily because I doubt the final scum would be on the Titus wagon D2 after Morning Tweet got killed N1. It just seems very high risk to bus Titus and be left as the sole scum that early when there's an SK around. Especially with Titus having a very useful power.

Whereas Dei townread Titus and was off the Titus wagon.

So I lean to Dei Ex Machina as the last mafia. And biancospino or Drew for SK.

It's not high risk to bus your buddy when they're widely scumread (or at least not townread) and unlikely to endgame. I'd argue it's riskier not to jump on the wagon at some point during the day, just because it ties us to her and puts us in this exact situation.
It's also not like we were hard-TRing her and fighting to keep her alive. We just thought the case on her was kind of weak, which it was, and preferred to vote someone we actually thought was scummy. At least until I had the existential crisis that was 848; after that, I didn't really know what I wanted.

- Nyx

At the time I cast the first vote on Titus D2 the previous two posters D1 had both voted Grandpa Mo. Then after my vote and furtive also voting Titus (making it 2-2) you kept up the Grandpa Mo pressure on redff in 697.

You then voted Porkens right after furtive said he gets towny vibes from Grandpa Mo. And in 717. said you "forgot about Titus" but that seems implausible given she was equal with redff in votes at that point.

Part of you tried to throw suspicion at furtive in 721 (admittedly the other part of you dialled that back). You cast doubt on the Titus case in 737.

It was only after Porkens and biancospino voted Titus (by 769) that you could say Titus was the leading wagon. At which point in 772 you shifted to trying to get Kitty seen as Titus's scumbuddy, and trying to promote Kitty as an alternative wagon to Titus in 818 and867.

Your play that day really looks to me like you were doing all you could to find a different target for town to latch on to for the lim, and trying to tie Kitty to a Titus scumflip for good measure.

[imaginality]

Lost a few words, that should read "...and arguing Kitty should be turboyeeted D3 if Titus flips scum in 867."

[imaginality]

I'm a VT.

biancospino, you're up.

[imaginality]

Imaginality, I like how much detail you've put into the case on us,

Damning with faint praise.
I do like when caught scum are polite though rather than the more antagonistic style of players, so thank you.

but I worry that you are pushing a specific view of the world.

If you were town you wouldn't be worried about that, you'd know for sure my worldview is limited and wrong. I don't think you're worried about my worldview, I think you're worried KittyTacky will lim you.

Your argument is basically "you defended titus, here are a bunch of instances of you pushing other wagons, you must be scum with titus".

Hmm that's one way of putting it. Another way is "you're the only one of the four of us who defended Titus D2 when mafia had lost one of their PRs and Titus is also a PR so the third mafia is likely just a goon, so they would understandably be reluctant to lose Titus especially with an SK in the game"...
and "here are a bunch of instances of you trying to deflect town away from a Titus wagon, and then lining up a D3 mislim when your counterwagon suggestions didn't take off"...
and "I'm not sure if you're scum but there's a mafia player and an SK left and I don't have a strong lead on who the SK is but I do think you are pretty clearly more likely to be mafia than the other players".

Have you looked at any other aspects of our play or of other slots' play?

Yep. I'm quite sure you haven't missed the posts I made e.g. looking at how people interacted with MorningTweet in 751 for one example. And as mentioned, I wouldn't be so confident you'll flip mafia if it wasn't for the difference in how you treated Titus vs how Drew and biancospino did.

Admittedly I didn't do a whole lot of rereading yesterday given how quickly all the mech claim stuff started happening. I did reread biancospino and redff when it became clear it would likely come down to a choice between them for yesterday's lim.

If

I'm wrong about you being mafia then biancospino is significantly more likely than Drew to be the final mafia given Drew raised suspicions of MorningTweet D1 and pressured Titus more than biancospino did.

You seemed pretty happy with KittyTacky being Titus's buddy back on day 2 (viewtopic.php?p=13675157#p13675157).

Yep. Note Kitty was also off the Titus wagon.

With that in mind, do you still find it suspicious that at some points (not all the time) we considered that KT might be Titus's buddy?

It's not you considering them as buddies that was suspicious. It's how you proposed a Kitty counterwagon, then said they're both town, then said we should speedlim Kitty if Titus flips scum.

If you genuinely suspected them as buddies I'd've thought you wouldn't have been so resistant to a Titus flip.

[imaginality]

Oh wow.

Why are you assuming Titus blocked you N2 Drew? I'd've thought it's obvious Kitty was jailkept by Menalque given how D3 went down? So wouldn't that be what blocked you?

I don't know if I buy a scum team with rolecop plus roleblocker plus redirector as balanced?

[imaginality]

I agree with Dei. Given the claims, Drew and biancospino almost certainly can't both be town. Only scenario they could is if mafia had a third PR of some type that could have confused things like redirector or mafia doctor or something. Or a second roleblocker which would be some crazy shit.

A more likely possibility that comes to mind is bianco could be a bulletproof SK?

[imaginality]

Oh yeah there is the JK possibility too.
Though, I still doubt Menalque went on biancospino given Menalque said "if red then bianco"

[imaginality]

I don't think Kitty claimed yet unless I missed it? It's possible Kitty has a PR that explains it (whether it makes more sense for Kitty to say so or just to silently factor it in to his thinking when choosing today's lim is another matter).

[imaginality]

Oh okay.

[imaginality]

Randomly awake and thinking about how Drew didn't have to claim vig. He was claiming last so could have claimed VT and had a good chance of not being limmed today.

Claiming vig is a risk for nontown!Drew. It could get him limmed if we don't believe the claim. It also puts a target on him tonight if we mislim today. I don't think it makes sense for scum to take that risk?

So I'm leaning to biancospino and Dei as the two scum remaining.

[imaginality]

It's possible. It's arguable either way, I'm certainly not saying Drew is clearly town. Just that I believe the claim.

As for why bianco, are you seriously asking that?

[imaginality]

You, me, Drew, bianco, Kitty

I know I'm town

Kitty is cleared by Porkens

My gut says Drew's claim is true

That leaves you and bianco.


...but I guess I see why you asked the question. After all you're only hunting one scum rather than two...

[imaginality]

I know this is an AI-generated setup, but that feels highly implausible. What mod puts in an SK and two town killing roles?

- Nyx

One that doesn't understand what Mafia setups really look like. i.e an AI.

Still I doubt as we never had 3 kills unless I have suffered a catastrophic memory failure.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to with "3 kills", but note there must be at least 3 sources of kills in the game:
- The mafia's factional kill
- Porkens's role
- A third role that caused either Porkens's or Menalque's death last night

I also feel it's a bit less likely that there would be a

fourth

killing role, since, as you say, there are quite a lot of missing kills.

There aren't actually that many missing kills given Porkens had two innos so we know didn't kill anyone N1 or N2.

If Drew is telling the truth, and assuming the third party kills each night:

N1: one missing kill
- mafia or the third party could have been jailkept, or their target could have been jailkept, or they doubled on BloodB0t, or the third party doubled on Morning Tweet

N2: one missing kill
- mafia or the third party could have targetted Kitty, or they doubled on furtiveglance

N3: one/two missing kills
- Porkens could have targeted an inno or been jailkept or his target could have been jailkept
- Drew could have been jailkept or biancospino (Drew's target) could have been [I know this second possibility isn't true though because it would leave Dei and me as the remaining nontown given there was a successful second kill]

The above sequence of events doesn't seem

highly

unlikely. Like Kitty said it comes down to WIFOM. And also considering whether town would be overpowered with vig plus jailkeeper plus vigcop vs scum with roleblocker and rolecop and ?, and third party with ?.

Where are you at, KT? As we said at the start of the day, we might look to you for guidance on who to eliminate today. Is this something you're thinking about?

-Morta

The "Is this something you're thinking about?" sentence here strikes me as insincere, like, DEM surely doesn't actually think Kitty

isn't

trying to decide who to lim? DEI is just trying to come across as so polite and helpful. Like with their polite little "worry" about me having a "limited" worldview because of me thinking they're mafia.

[imaginality]

From a balance perspective if Drew is town then if he, scum and 3P all hit town, and Porkens got innos, we would have been 5-3-1 D2 and lost already after N2 (2-3-1 D3).

[imaginality]

If anything that seems more of a reason to doubt Drew's claim, that it makes the setup too swingy.

Swingy on the other side too: if we limmed mafia D1 and two of Porkens, Drew and the third party targetted the remaining mafia N1 and mafia targetted the third party then we might have won already after N1, or even if third party was bullet proof could go into D2 at 9-0-1.

[imaginality]

The "why bianco?" in 1056 is the clincher for me of Dei Ex Machina being scum.

It speaks to their mindset of trying to find one scum from three non-clears rather than trying to find two scum from three.

[imaginality]

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Hoping Kitty's gut is right.
The point about Drew forgetting Menalque jailkept Kitty gives me hope.

[imaginality]

I assume this flips green since 3p would probably just drop the act.

Why "3p" and not "scum" here?

Oh wait I know why.

Because you know there's no chance of Drew flipping mafia because that's your role.

Another case of you hunting one scum rather than two.

[imaginality]

Thanks for modding, Not_Mafia. Thanks for playing, everyone. I'm very happy to have won my first time playing as SK!

@Not_Mafia: Should the first action on N1 say

Porkens targets Menalque

, rather than

Porkens targets Titus

?

My thoughts during the game:

I am fairly useless D1 as either alignment. Thanks Titus for vouching for that

I was pretty confident picking Morning Tweet as mafia with my N1 target. (It's surprising and amusing Drew and I both targeted Morning Tweet N1. It made it so surprising to me when he actually flipped Vig. After Drew flipped, I felt like my shot was devalued if we both killed Morning Tweet but now I see he got roleblocked so I can still claim that scum kill all on my own )

I'm happy with how well I picked up the mafia, shooting MT and first on the Titus wagon D2 (probably helped by having played with her so recently). That sucks about the trial, Titus, I can see things could've gone differently if you'd been free to push back against your wagon.

I deliberately no-killed N2. I was hoping to cause confusion and either lure a doctor/protective claim or (what I thought more likely) to tempt scum to push hard on whoever Titus roleblocked N1. I mathed it out and it didn't change how long it would take to win in most scenarios.

I was already suspicious of Dei Ex Machina D3 but it wouldn't have helped me to push them that day (especially when the mechanical shenanigans happened).

N3 I'm happy I guessed right about which one of Menalque/Porkens mafia would target. My logic was it was possible mafia had a Godfather so wouldn't feel threatened by Porkens, plus I figured Menalque's role is the bigger threat so they'd want them gone first. I'm interested what Dei Ex Machina's decision process actually was.

D4 I was confidently pushing to get Dei Ex Machina limmed as scum and prepared to go to 2-0-1 today, but when Drew claimed I felt sure he was fake claiming. At that point I was mainly concerned to just come across as not knowing Drew was fake claiming, so I wouldn't get targeted by him if he survived the day. (If I had been town though, I would 100% have wanted someone else to be limmed though as his vig shot if true could have helped get town to 2-0-1 today depending how the night went down, or even 2-0-0.)

N4 I was 75% sure Dei Ex Machina was the remaining mafia and 80% sure they'd target biancospino rather than me. Happy that's how it went down. I figured 20% it was bianco and 5% maybe Kitty was a mafia Godfather roleblocker or something crazy.

I'm pretty interested to see how Not_Mafia got chatGPT to generate this setup assuming the chat logs are captured in the mod thread?

[imaginality]

Ah interesting!

I guess Titus was likely always going down D2 even if she'd been around, then.

Lol 3 hours of prompting, good effort.

[imaginality]

The game continues until either the Mafia or the townspeople win. If the Mafia eliminates all the townspeople

or

the serial killer, the Mafia wins. If the townspeople eliminate all the Mafia members

or

the serial killer, the townspeople win.

Could've been a short game lol!