TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Ausuka]

My biggest objection to that is that like I think it's not 'wrong' communication but ultimately a refusal to do so which i think shows a lack of interest in my alignment

Also italiano does have a decent chance of flipping town but like it's day 1 and I think basically no wagon can meet the standard of "town could never do this"

pedit: Maybe it's a sign

[Aisa]

Ok I recovered my draft by pressing the back button thank goodness I think I would have screamed if not

Spoiler: Wall

Spoiler: Shirou's case

In my defense I'm often this friendly with at least one person in games so I would argue it's very NAI for me given how common it is

Is pocketing people by joking with them or being nice a scum tactic which you employ often?

Hmm, well yeah a bit? I do it as either alignment like I said above, contrary to what some people may think I do like being nice to people when I can!

What I'm trying to ask is, when you're scum, do you do this with the specific idea to pocket people?

It's half because of my personality and the other half because it's advantageous for my wincon yeah

Her posts aren't

bad

but at the same time it's mostly questioning other people without much input on a game solve from herself, and it feels like busywork at certain points given in the above she asks me twice for what I see as the same topic, not to mention I had already said it was NAI for me from the start.

Even if it was to clarify whether I did it completely for being me or as strictly as game advantageous, I do think her definition of pocketing not including being "nice"/humoring the other player as not something I would expect from town!Ausuka solving in her full capacity. Could it be a wrong expectation? Probably but it's what I believe in.

It was back when DKKoba had first voted me so I saw it as more her coming up with something to interact w/ me for shading or busywork than because it would help her sort my slot. Other than a scumread on Italiano that didn't see a lot of progress through the days, I don't think Ausuka visibly progressed in her reads too much from her questioning, apart from Ydra which was a wacky interaction to me by itself (can expand on it later).

So far Ausuka has felt to me like she's trying to look like she's solving more than actually coming around a gamesolve, and her questions purpose being to question/indirectly shade something itself rather than get an insight from the other's party reply.

I'm pretty tired right now but I'll try to keep expanding on this read in the following days. I wonder if I still have enough energy or time to push this today though.

I'd summarise this as:
- Most of Ausuka's posts are questioning other people. She doesn't post much analysis herself. Sometimes it feels like busywork.
- She uses a broad definition of "pocketing"
- Her reads don't seem to be evolving. The only things she's done is stating a scumread on Italiano and her read on Ydra has evolved.

First, in favour of Ausuka, I find a lot of her questions actually useful. I like that she's trying to clarify things. I think it's useful to establish what someone meant 100% so they can't claim it was something else later.

Spoiler: Ausuka

I've wondered if Italiano/Ausuka could be a bus, but at the moment I think:

> Ausuka interactions toward Italiano potentially feels like a bus

> Italiano interactions towards Ausuka doesn't feel like a bus, it feels like he's struggling to understand her rather than focusing on distancing/looking good on each other flips

Ok please show me where he is "struggling to understand me"

You have literally refused to engage on italiano the entire game apart from "aPpEaL to EmOtIon" and just like not talking about any of his actual posting.

Here she introduces the accusation that Shirou has "refused to engage on Italiano the entire game apart from commenting on his AtE". It's not clear to me at this point why she thinks this is relevant. I also feel like "not talking about any of his actual posting" is an unfair standard: Italiano's AtE is posting.

Spoiler: Ausuka

Like half the game is either doing nothing for the past few days or spent it on a vote for arko because he didn't post anything and I'm the one not solving when I actually have a push I want to make and a case for it which you have just been incredibly dismissive about

If.italiano flips scum at any point Shirou needs to die 100% of the time

Maybe this clarifies her point. It seems to be:
- Shirou is suspecting her for not solving, but
- Shirou is dismissing her push on Italiano, and
- Half of the game has done less solving.

I think there's some merit to these points, but I think Shirou's point is closer to "given the fact Ausuka has been engaging with the game, it doesn't feel like she's achieved much".

Then they get into a bit of a discussion about whether Italiano is struggling to understand Ausuka. Shirou originally brought this up only briefly to talk about associatives between Ausuka and Italiano. This doesn't feel like the main point so I'm not super interested in it. Giving the benefit of the doubt to Ausuka, you could say that here she's trying to understand Shirou.

Spoiler: Ausuka

Well semantic discussion aside, do you disagree with my take that you've done a lot of questioning but hasn't given a lot of stances/explaining your stances in the game so far?

Yeah I think your take is horseshit

Why? Saying you're doing more than other slots is pretty fair and I realize it may be incredibly frustrating in that scenario to be pushed if you're town here, however effort ultimately isn't alignment indicative especially for you I think. You put effort in your scum games so Italiano issue aside, how is that not a description of your play here vs most other town games where I saw you be more whimsical about your reads/sharing takes.

maybe because if I'm doing more than other slots that implies I'm not doing nothing and you said I was doing nothing

Here Ausuka says Shirou's take is bad because he said she was doing nothing, but she was doing something. This seems insufficient to prove her point to me.

Conclusion:

Shirou's case is that ~Ausuka's posting is not solvy enough. Ausuka's main point seems to be - "no, look, I've been solving more than half the game. I made a push and you've dismissed it. What more do you want?"

I'm less sure Ausuka is scum than before I started writing this post, though I still think her posting is stretching a little.

I'm sure that if she's town, from her POV she's been solving. But her responses don't actually address the concerns I have about her slot or tell me much I didn't know before Shirou's case. Before Shirou's case, I would have told you: "Ausuka's questions are good, but I don't see anything scum cannot fake and her posting's kinda light on analysis or attempts to drive the game". The concerns are all the same now.

So I find it a bit suspicious that she's implying Shirou's take is bad when fmpov it's all reasonable concerns

[Aisa]

My biggest objection to that is that like I think it's not 'wrong' communication but ultimately a refusal to do so which i think shows a lack of interest in my alignment

Ok. My point is exactly that I think you're taking a slighly narrow view of what "being interested in your alignment" looks like
But ultimately it is maybe a bit scum indicative so idk maybe we're just saying the same thing emphasising different aspects

Also italiano does have a decent chance of flipping town but like it's day 1 and I think basically no wagon can meet the standard of "town could never do this"

I agree with this

[Ausuka]

i mean i've been trying to analyse and solve and i think i've done plenty of that. if people don't think it's good enough, shrug, i don't think there's any way to prove otherwise

I have only pushed italiano because -italiano is the only one worth pushing-

Mala hasn't been here all day and ydrasse went all READ BETWEEN THE LINES mode at 2 votes

Nobody else is scummy enough or really all that close, or they're inactives which i don't really want to wagon someone who isn't doing anything because i think it's pretty useless until there's actually enough will to present a threat to them

[Ausuka]

Ok. My point is exactly that I think you're taking a slighly narrow view of what "being interested in your alignment" looks like

I don't think so! I think his post and lack of subsequent elaboration about his strong scumread on me was a pretty clear disinterest

I think it is probably more likely that italiano is town and was uninterested in sorting me vs being interested given what he said and did

[Shirou]

Nobody else is scummy enough or really all that close,

or they're inactives which i don't really want to wagon someone who isn't doing anything

because i think

it's pretty useless until there's actually enough will to present a threat to them

You have argued that Italiano hasn't done anything in the game so doesn't he fit in the inactive classification as well?

I know in the next line you say then that it's useless to pressure someone like that without there being multiple votes, so therefore I assume the explanation for pushing Italiano even if he's kinda inactive as well is that he already has a wagon on him, however it does strike me as something town!Ausuka wouldn't give this much thought about

Now this is just my impression without much to back up, but you don't strike me as the kind of player to go "who and what is the most effective way to pressure in this gamestate" rather than a more free/whimsical "welp you look like scum (vote)". I think saying you've been focusing on Italiano because he's by far your biggest scumread makes me squint a bit but it's possible, however trying to excuse your focus on him with "there's nothing else to do/no one else to attempt sorting" is a bit stretchy.

For example, I do think you could have dug deeper into sorting Ydrasse if you suspected her, and also scum reads aren't the unique sorting there is to be done, I don't think you've shared much "townhunting" content either.

[Ausuka]

The guy has like 64 posts there is enough there to push

[Ausuka]

this wagon won't bear fruit so i suggest elsewhere atm
return to it later if you want but not rn

going to reiterate this and hope people think for more than 2 seconds about the implications

YOU DIDNT THINK ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS

[Shirou]

If you thought she was scum why would you about the "implications" that much really?

[Shirou]

If you thought she was scum

why would you think

about the "implications" that much really?

[Ydrasse]

you have to respect my impies

[Ausuka]

Not all of us get into tunnels on day 1

[Shirou]

Here's the timeline of what happened:

VOTE: Ydrasse
Science.

this wagon won't bear fruit so i suggest elsewhere atm
return to it later if you want but not rn

going to reiterate this and hope people think for more than 2 seconds about the implications

Ok then Ydrasse says for you to think about the implications, and I engage with you about how Ydrasse doesn't quite feel like Dance Game regardless of how important that fact is for you read on her. And you just insist that Ydra is scummy:

@Ausuka given you're voting ydra now, aside from the not believing ydra's read on xof/you, do you think ydra is playing to her "scum meta" in general with her posts?

It's not a meta read? I've only played with scum ydrasse once in the dance game. I don't think I put much focus on her slot in general there, but looking back, I don't see any significant difference that would impact my read. I think her play overall in this game has been, like, pretty thoroughly unimpressive and I don't get the vibe at all she is like, more engaged here than she was in that game or whatever. She is much more keen to ask leading questions to me than to actually talk about Kowabungah who she is actually voting for example - her only comment on him is saying he's "either very towny new or very wolfy new." While also criticising me for not making an entire case post. She doesn't feel genuine this game.

I recommend you to take a peek on her ISO in the Dance Game again

I had that same impression and I changed my mind on it on a revisit

If you think there's something wrong there, can you just say it? I mean, I revisited it, and I don't see anything obvious that would change my read. Like she was more jokey but that was a dance game and they're supposed to be fun - i don't expect people to play every game exactly the same if they are the same alignment. If I am going to make a meta read, I'd prefer to have an established pattern of behaviour over multiple games, rather than trying to find some difference between two different games to make reads.

The whole convo is bigger than this but it would be too big to quote it all I think.

[Shirou]

Not all of us get into tunnels on day 1

so, dunno, you kept your scum read on Ydra but at the same time backed off really quickly

Realistically I think you would only do one of them as town but /shrug

[Ausuka]

She can be scummy without me wanting to push an obvious soft on day 1???

[Ausuka]

Shea tells me to tell you to 'fuck off and let us cook'

Perhaps you will understand this message from him in some way

[Shirou]

If you believe the soft how is she scummy

those two don't go together in my head. I ignore any kind of "implication" from someone I consider a scum read, and if I believe someone "implication" I automatically start to consider them townier.

I'll admit it can be a me thing though.

[Ausuka]

because scummy means she has a >rand chance to be scum not that she is confirmed scum

[Shirou]

Shea tells me to tell you to 'fuck off and let us cook'

Tell shea I want to eat fried frog today tho

[Ausuka]

Shea says paraphrased that he thinks you're reaction testing and it's very unhelpful

I think if you are reaction testing it would be a bit silly and pointlessly tilting but what does silly me who can't even think about the game know

[ItalianoVD]

Man, I’ve missed a lot. I am very sorry, work has been extremely hectic and when I get home I’m dead tired. Thankfully my weekend is free so I can catch up and interact more.

[Shirou]

Also like, if you think Italiano is scum, and I "100%" need to die if Italiano flips scum, don't you think you're being a bit soft on how you treat me?

I don't feel you're approaching me as the evil italiano scum buddy that wants to proxy protect him by limming you, I feel you're mostly approaching me as wrong town

I do appreciate being treated as town in fact, but it does contradict a bit what seemed to be your worldview here

[Shirou]

Shea says paraphrased that he thinks you're reaction testing and it's very unhelpful

I'm really not reaction testing. Sorry If I'm wrong and just being bad right now but I do genuinely scum read you quite a bit atm.

[Ausuka]

Also like, if you think Italiano is scum, and I "100%" need to die if Italiano flips scum, don't you think you're being a bit soft on how you treat me?

I don't feel you're approaching me as the evil italiano scum buddy that wants to proxy protect him by limming you, I feel you're mostly approaching me as wrong town

I do appreciate being treated as town in fact, but it does contradict a bit what seemed to be your worldview here

I think you are probably town but if italiano is scum you need to die at some point for your treatment of him this game day

I think there is a limit to how much pro-scum action towns should tolerate, generally

[Shirou]

I think you are probably town but if italiano is scum you need to die at some point for your treatment of him this game day

I think there is a limit to how much pro-scum action towns should tolerate, generally

Saying you town lean me but I need to die anyway is kinda a scum take I also said in my game but ok, not impossible you think that way

However, objectively speaking, what am I even doing other than push someone I think is scum? I made a point in defense of Italiano about your argument on the "perception" stuff but I don't think it's an unreasonable take, Aisa even agreed to my point as well.

I think Italiano is more likely town than not atm but it's not that strong as I've said, it's mostly that your/others arguments for why he's scum haven't been that convincing to me just like mine about Koba weren't to you/some others.

If Koba was scum, should I interpret that you're necessarily scum for pushing Italiano as a "counterwagon"?

It may sound arrogant but the difference between me and other people not voting Italiano right now is mostly that I'm louder so me pushing a slot warps the gamestate a bit harder than when others do it perhaps, but that's like, just me being me...? It's hard for me to play differently, it's my style.

But meh, I'm resigned to accept being suspected if I'm fucking it up and Italiano is scum similarly to a town game one year ago, it's just that...I kinda think you're busing in that scenario anyway so after me I would still prob want you next .-.