TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Alisae]

VOTE: staeg

you know what this is fine

OK, so this player puts staeg at 6.
Sure.

Then look @ what happens

i open the game

i see gimli casing and voting marashu

i cry

the amount of baffling resistance to mara is incredible

Alisae - townie vibes and energy
Bellaphant - townie vibes and energy
Cephrir - scum if dats is town
Datisi - scum if ceph is town
Gimli - potato
imaginality - hard TRing the poem fight me
Lady Lambdadelta - idk
Marashu - idk scum?
Menalque - idk
mith - idk
Rad - towny vibes
Staeg - idk
Ythan - idk

I'm compromising with your wagon but I don't scumread you, I just townread imag

i don't see mara getting any votes atm, all I see is people discrediting me for bringing up scummy af slot

i don't see mara getting any votes atm, all I see is people discrediting me for bringing up scummy af slot

okay, please explain to me your worldview of marashu being scum

he got pushed for not posting, then he wrote nonsense that lld decided to townread him on, then ???

who are his buddies

what were they doing

I'm not townreading the likeability, I'm townreading it on an emotional level but okay, that's re: imag

re: mara

why would I care about associatives on d1?

is he your roleblocker or something

you're townreading a slot cause it got pushed that's brilliant

This is how he eventually goes from Staeg 6 to just vanity voting Mara

staeg would you turn a wagon on marashu with me?

who's actually buying that marashu is a townie this game and thinks the defenses of him are not suspicious at all can stay on your wagons ig, but the people who were beatened out their marashu scumreads could maybe wagon him with me? and let's see if that makes a majority

we can try its just a game

VOTE: marashu

I think this in combination with those interactions I feel like come across as this guy seeming like he's just doing his own thing.

[Alisae]

those gimli posts remind me of the Lavos Core open game where Gimli was scum, though.

People pleasing "I'm sorry but" etc

ok but him adjusting his read on me isn't necessary to do in the first place I think if he's a wolf.
I think Gimli if he was a wolf would just keep me as a TR and not talk about it much since he knows I'm town.
Like, I'm saying I don't think it happens in the first place if he is a wolf.

Idunno, why would he go from really hardly TRing me to "My TR is getting weaker" if he was a wolf?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

those gimli posts remind me of the Lavos Core open game where Gimli was scum, though.

People pleasing "I'm sorry but" etc

ok but him adjusting his read on me isn't necessary to do in the first place I think if he's a wolf.
I think Gimli if he was a wolf would just keep me as a TR and not talk about it much since he knows I'm town.
Like, I'm saying I don't think it happens in the first place if he is a wolf.

Idunno, why would he go from really hardly TRing me to "My TR is getting weaker" if he was a wolf?

sure it is, it lets him say he has read progresson on you when you were a pretty openly townread slot. it's a great place to make meaningless content

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like there's nothing remotely deep about his takes here. He's surface level on you and trying to make what looks ike content but isn't.

[Alisae]

those gimli posts remind me of the Lavos Core open game where Gimli was scum, though.

People pleasing "I'm sorry but" etc

ok but him adjusting his read on me isn't necessary to do in the first place I think if he's a wolf.
I think Gimli if he was a wolf would just keep me as a TR and not talk about it much since he knows I'm town.
Like, I'm saying I don't think it happens in the first place if he is a wolf.

Idunno, why would he go from really hardly TRing me to "My TR is getting weaker" if he was a wolf?

sure it is, it lets him say he has read progresson on you when you were a pretty openly townread slot. it's a great place to make meaningless content

This idea of wolves making meaningless content is a new idea to me. Is that something wolves go out of their way to do?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

those gimli posts remind me of the Lavos Core open game where Gimli was scum, though.

People pleasing "I'm sorry but" etc

ok but him adjusting his read on me isn't necessary to do in the first place I think if he's a wolf.
I think Gimli if he was a wolf would just keep me as a TR and not talk about it much since he knows I'm town.
Like, I'm saying I don't think it happens in the first place if he is a wolf.

Idunno, why would he go from really hardly TRing me to "My TR is getting weaker" if he was a wolf?

sure it is, it lets him say he has read progresson on you when you were a pretty openly townread slot. it's a great place to make meaningless content

This idea of wolves making meaningless content is a new idea to me. Is that something wolves go out of their way to do?

of course

you have to have things you can point at and go "hey, look I had these takes and these thoughts" even if you want those thoughts and takes to go nowhere.

even if you want to slink into the background.

doing what Ythan did gets people on your ass

doing what Gimli did sometimes hooks people into believing you and you get a couple of defenders, promise more in the future and then... nothing comes.

[Alisae]

doing what Ythan did gets people on your ass

I mean ya it's generally unreadable. They don't do much of anything. It's not play I would want to lose to if its mafia.

[Alisae]

you have to have things you can point at and go "hey, look I had these takes and these thoughts" even if you want those thoughts and takes to go nowhere.

Is this what Gimli is like when they play wolf?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

you have to have things you can point at and go "hey, look I had these takes and these thoughts" even if you want those thoughts and takes to go nowhere.

Is this what Gimli is like when they play wolf?

it was my experience with them in Lavos core

[Alisae]

Also, even then, aren't there like, better topic points?
I find it hard to believe that if your intent was "hey, look I had these takes and these thoughts" you would decide to talk about me of all things. Talking about me doesn't do much at all. It doesn't do anything.

I'm confused how doing this as a wolf would be an effective strategy but look who cares about this logic.

Generally speaking, I do see what you are seeing with jjh-Dats. We should probably be looking for the third one

[Alisae]

you have to have things you can point at and go "hey, look I had these takes and these thoughts" even if you want those thoughts and takes to go nowhere.

Is this what Gimli is like when they play wolf?

it was my experience with them in Lavos core

oh ok ya sure
tbh I'm trying to think about on hollow knight and nothing really stood out, I had the right read on him early.

but ya sure ok

[Alisae]

how Gimli went from Staeg to Marashu could be town, but aside from that, I think Dats could reasonably be partnered with Gimli.

What do you think about Datisi/Andante interactions?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I need to look again at those. I've been focused on day 1 because day 1 has more open status.

[Alisae]

Spoiler: Ok I quoted all of the posts

cause he's the only person trying to help me out here?

hey remember when i said you should start with reading imaginality and also to ask your team what they had on this game and i got ignored? yes very cool

I have been convinced
VOTE: imaginality

uh

what

I have been convinced

by whom and why

Andante, if you somehow

are

town:

If you are town, go read 2792 and 2813. Explain how imaginality as town has this thought process, or get on board. (If you are scum, continue to ignore it, it will make the rest of the game easier, kthxbye)

That seemed good to me

didn't you say mith was scum and that you don't wanna vote out a doc claim

Finally.

Andante almost certainly the lim tomorrow, that hammer seems like a desperate attempt to reclaim

some

semblance of towncred after a disaster of an entrance. Like “oh crap I really gave myself away there what if I do a 180 and hammer to salvage this”.

I still think LLD is worth a look as the third, but we’ve got time to figure that out; Ythan a strong possibility too.

something tells me mith is maf and I shouldn't have went "wow lots of words, sounds right" ughhh why did I hammer that

like, scum or not, that was a freaking doc claim, goes against everything i was thinking

mith feels like he's setting something up for tomorrow with 3097, I don't like it

didn't you say mith was scum and that you don't wanna vote out a doc claim

Andante almost certainly the lim tomorrow, that hammer seems like a desperate attempt to reclaim some semblance of towncred after a disaster of an entrance

like excuse me? not a whole lot I can do when I enter then go "oh yeah finals" then catch what was most likely strep for 2 days, but don't worry, my entrance was disastrous. like what? it's a 3000 post game, haven't had time to catch up, not like yall were helping me by giving the tldr

"andante is the lim tomorrow" like what? I sheeped your case and that automatically makes me scum?

didn't you say mith was scum and that you don't wanna vote out a doc claim

uhh I see my slot is voting mith, I'm not sure I even said it though, but yeah, I def said I didn't want to vote out a doc claim

but like, everyone was voting here, seems like no one had intentions to go elsewhere, skimming mith's case it seems like a good place to vote, so I did, then went "oh yeah, doc claim.. eeek" fun facts

so now all I can do is hope this at least flips scum, and then go from there, but as I said, it feels like mith is setting up for tomorrow, and I'm not a fan

like, mith, you weren't even tunneling gimli before I came in, so tunneling the new person here is the best you can do? cause everyone else here is surely town

but like, everyone was voting here, seems like no one had intentions to go elsewhere, skimming mith's case it seems like a good place to vote, so I did, then went "oh yeah, doc claim.. eeek" fun facts

are you claiming you forgot imag was the doc claim when you read mith's case and hammered???

but like, everyone was voting here, seems like no one had intentions to go elsewhere, skimming mith's case it seems like a good place to vote, so I did, then went "oh yeah, doc claim.. eeek" fun facts

are you claiming you forgot imag was the doc claim when you read mith's case and hammered???

I didn't really connect the dots, but yeah, it's too early for this

but like, everyone was voting here, seems like no one had intentions to go elsewhere, skimming mith's case it seems like a good place to vote, so I did, then went "oh yeah, doc claim.. eeek" fun facts

are you claiming you forgot imag was the doc claim when you read mith's case and hammered???

I didn't really connect the dots, but yeah, it's too early for this

it was like, I saw the e-1, saw mith was all "go read this and tell me how it could be town" and it was a lot of words, and I was like, ok, perfect!

so you forgot that you suspected mith (because why are you listening to the person you suspect) and you also forgot imag is the doc claim (when you entered the game screaming how you don't wanna vote the doc claim)

like you said "why are y'all voting the doc claim" and then it didn't occur to you to check whether you're being asked to vote the doc claim

so you forgot that you suspected mith (because why are you listening to the person you suspect) and you also forgot imag is the doc claim (when you entered the game screaming how you don't wanna vote the doc claim)

like you said "why are y'all voting the doc claim" and then it didn't occur to you to check whether you're being asked to vote the doc claim

where did I even suspect mith? before now. I didn't have a scum read, I'm pretty sure of that. if I did I'd have been tunneling them

also, if that's just 2 people who sr mith, I'm sure there's more,

so we agree mith is maf

, but we're voting out someone who cased mith?

the doc claim thing is ringing more a bell though, like I guess what I'm trying to say is I know there was no way any yall were voting anywhere ofther than imaginality, the mith stuff was so many words I said sure seems like scum

also, if that's just 2 people who sr mith, I'm sure there's more,

so we agree mith is maf

, but we're voting out someone who cased mith?

yeah that was like, people were calling mith scum, and imaginality said he cased mith, then yall were voting imaginality

also, if that's just 2 people who sr mith, I'm sure there's more,

so we agree mith is maf

, but we're voting out someone who cased mith?

yeah that was like, people were calling mith scum, and imaginality said he cased mith, then yall were voting imaginality

that's not me SRing mith lmao

like hello, you can't tell me if you had no reads on the game, you open this up, go "woah" then go "sure imaginality scum"

I feel like that's why it's important to look at who made sure the wagon shifted to Rad rather than say to Gimli.
It's not about why it shifted from me to Rad, it's about why it didn't shift to someone else instead.

Your analysis on this point in 2788 seems to consist of "here's a list of all the players who switched to Rad initially or said they would vote Rad, minus the confirmed town Cephrir and Staeg". There is no analysis whatsoever about the timing of those votes, the potential scum motivation, nothing. No acknowledgement that I switched to Rad

less than two hours after Staeg was put at E-1

, because that doesn't fit the narrative of "Staeg wagon stalled and scum were worried". (And never mind that Menalque and Datisi switched to Rad, then back to imaginality, then back to Rad. This would seem to be relevant to someone feeling this was an important thing to look at, and surely imaginality is aware that they were voting for him again for a bit.)

This isn't what scumhunting looks like. This isn't what town trying to solve the game looks like. It's just the barest surface reading that amounts to "Rad flipped town, let's lim mith for it because there might be momentum there".

As for @mith's "contradiction" about me, yesterday evening I was feeling optimistic about analysing more. Started doing one of those vote count things highlighting conftown. Then realised the gaps between vote counts are too big making it pointless so narrowed my focus to just reread 10 or so pages rather than 100

It wasn't a "contradiction". You just said essentially the same thing you had already said, reasoning and all, only the second time you tried to make it seem like an organic transition from a full reread to focus on one specific aspect (again, amounting to going after the Rad wagon with no analysis of the context) and failed miserably. To reiterate:

2686: "I'm particularly interested in looking back to see who led the consolidation on Rad"
2788: "I wanted to look at who switched wagons when on D1 but digging through the 100 pages is demotivating.

Maybe

I'll focus on the shift from me to Rad"

You simply don't say this if you have already had the thought that you were particularly interested in the consolidation on Rad. You say this if you slip up trying to justify a weirdly timed vote (if anything changed on your read of me between start of D2 and your vote, you sure didn't express that; I suspect you just waited until there were two votes already on me).

------

Will try to do some analysis on other players tomorrow. (I am behind on everything, so I don't think I am going to have time tonight.)

I would very much like to get reads from Ythan, Marashu, and Menalque ASAP (and LLD when able).

like that amount of words?? yo. but then I go with mith on it, and mith is all "ANDANTE DIES TOMORROW!!" like what?

surely you don't actually think that scum is incapable of writing that many words

Sorry not everything I do makes perfect sense, but I'm trying my best to explain where yall are confused in this thought process. Welcome to the mind of andante!

surely you don't actually think that scum is incapable of writing that many words

seemed like a whole lot of effort at the time.
but hey not I instantly regret voting,it's not like I can change it though

so now we just hope this flips scum!

prove me wrong, show me how voting out a doc claim is a good idea

you literally fucking hammered the

yknow what i'll stop posting

[Alisae]

so my first thought process is her referring to the amount of words that mith as reason to vote is heinous.

[Alisae]

idunno I refuse to believe that's real

[Alisae]

i think if jjh flips wolf and mith wants to shoot a wolf, they should probably shoot Datisi.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think if jjh flips wolf and mith wants to shoot a wolf, they should probably shoot Datisi.

I concur.

[Alisae]

i think if jjh flips wolf and mith wants to shoot a wolf, they should probably shoot Datisi.

I concur.

regardless of if you looked at dats/andante d2 interactions, I think we should try to look for the third one

[mith]

I haven’t been thinking a whole lot about the game (instead, I have been completely oblivious in TotK and solving puzzles in the most convoluted way possible), but kuribo whiteboarded Gimli’s D1 for associatives and I’ll try to summarize below.

But first, this caught my eye looking at the ISO, after Andante’s reason for hammering D2:

I think this is a lot over one vote though

If it were just over one vote, I wouldn't have given a breakdown of four votes in eight posts...

But ok, what about this interaction seems like "a lot" to you?

lots of words

I dont think you'll like interacting much with me rn but I appreciate the effort. speaking of me voting mara first, what do you think of the fact that marashu was definitely around to see me voting him in real time but chose to ignore it?

Also this:

as if scum is like super worried about getting the d1 flip instead of building good associatives and playing the long run

A rough summary of kuribo’s thoughts on Gimli ISO:

Shaded Mara, Cephrir, Staeg
Town on imaginality and Rad
Uncertain on Ali, no read on LLD or Mena
Doesn’t mention Bella much, but a town read
Nothing substantial for Ythan
Went from Datisi town to scum (some miscommunication here but he clarified, 970 has Datisi as “town?”, not much about Datisi until 2042 where he is “scum if Ceph is town”. Agree this is a weird progression. While trying to figure out what glue kuribo was sniffing I noticed 648/715 talk about Datisi a lot, in sort of a “I disagree but don’t suspect Datisi” way)

kuribo thinks Datisi interaction could be distancing, Bella and Ali possibly not wanting to give a firm read on a buddy (LLD also here for D1 alone, obviously if it’s Ythan/jjh/LLD playing this D3 LLD has been taking too many of the good drugs). All of the most significant pushes from Gimli have flipped town except for Datisi, but no vote there.

And then some stuff about his whiteboard that I need to actually zoom in and look at when my brain is less fuzzy.

So kuribo is on board with the shoot Datisi plan at least. I’m not going to give a 100% certain target for potential JK reasons, but it did occur to me earlier that I should probably rule out at least one target so that in the event of a jjh red flip Ythan has someone to investigate that isn’t getting shot (so that if scum decide to leave Ythan alive to push an unlikely Ythan/jjh gambit theory they would be risking Ythan being able to solve the game with time to spare; or if it *is* the Ythan/jjh gambit there’s less wiggle room for Ythan).

We both think the likeliest group is jjh/Datisi/Ali at this point.

[Bellaphant]

here's a question for you

if it's Ythan/Datisi/Mith

show me the interactions between those slots that indicate that, cause Ythan/Mith I'm just not seeing it

but I see a TON of Datisi soft defending Gimli, go look at Datisi's iso for Gimli day 1

Klick said something similar.

i think if jjh flips wolf and mith wants to shoot a wolf, they should probably shoot Datisi.

I concur.

Yes

@lld, I just dont seem to be around when anyone else is around!

[Bellaphant]

The other issue is, if people are impressionable, like me, the only take away they are gonna have is that the 'reasonable' responses (me, imag, alissy, gimli) are town, and those aren't even particularly good takes!

hi bella! I like this post cause it pushes what I'm sure you think is a protown agenda, while exposing reads you're probably making in the spot understanding the reasoning for it is weak and the threadstate isn't conducive to scumhunting.

Hi! Did AI write this post? It feels very expository but also like it's trying hard to be friendly! While being slightly passive aggressive

Is that worse? Should I stop? Sorry, I'm doing it in love.

no it’s uh…
I mean I don’t mind I think it’s cute
I feel like I’m being teased and I’m ya uh

The emojis look a bit sad. I'm also poking fun at my bad spelling/typing. I may or may not continue

P-edit not just to me, lld. It's not a hot take that shitting up the thread makes the thread a place where people don't want to be. I don't care as much about tone, I care about the brick wall element.

Also, you kinda answered your own question? It's really clear that those reads are based on 'people being bice' rather than 'people being town'.

I have more of a TR on imaginality than alisae, If that helps.

@mith, sorry to case myself but this interaction never happens as partners

[Bellaphant]

From my pov: either ythan Is lying (which raises the question of why guilty andante of all people - the slot would probably be a status quo lim anyway, so why not guilty....me, for example) and the team is like ythan/lld/idek let's say mith

Or, ythan is telling the truth. It's probably jjh/dats +one other, and that other has to be not lld and klick says he 100% believes in mena down here.

[Alisae]

@lld, I just dont seem to be around when anyone else is around!

I'm around

[Bellaphant]

If andante is guilty, then I am compelled to look at alisae: the thing is, their response to the slot makes very little since as any combination of alignments: t/t, t/s,s/t or s/s - to hard defend a slot that has had three chances to be town read by my and failed, the hammer, etc.

Which leads to me to judge Judy: if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true.

P-edit hii, I won't be for long (feeding iz) klick says can you ask shirou thier perspective on the game?