Micro 1090: Fruit Mafia - Game Over!

[Ausuka]

i thought infinity was a little scummy so when skitter was like "wtf they were kinda scummy what is that kill" i kinda believe it and also i rarely see scum react that strongly to kills they make in practice even though it sounds in theory like something they might do. idk i just don't think scum say their kills are bad that often.

for example in the weird fire and ice clone you modded everyone was like "ok they definitely killed meuh the sky kill would make no sense" and then merlyn was like "but uh ok maybe mafia *did* kill sky" and everyone was just like "nahhhhhh"

[skitter30]

Anyway Datisi I kinda understand your reasoning here on Skitter, but is she actually known to plan eliminations 2 days in advance?

Because that's pretty lit if she can do that. I could never do that.

like idk how often this happens and it makes you sound a bit paranoid (which is not scummy btw, it's actually townie when I think about it).
So umm you did say she was a pro scum player, do you think it's within her range?

she is an excellent scum player and this sort of thing is like the most basic elimination planning (aka even i could do it) so yes it is def within her range

it is also within her range to make up a reason why she townread you for it later, @skit i did see the post you quoted but i just don't find it town-indicative for you at all sorry

I'm not saying it's town-indicative for me i'm saying it should be town-indicative for dragon -> your scumread on me is in part predicated on the fact that i'm townreading dragon, and i'm explaining why

Does that post impact ur dragon sr at all?

Like did you respond to this?

did not seem worth responding to at the time, i think the way you framed the first line of the post is like... like it's not my issue the fact that you're townreading dragons, not exactly (well at least not the fact you're townreading him for the lolhammer + reaction), but the way you framed the townread with the "not sure it makes him scum" and then didn't explain it at all during eod1 even though there was time, it felt like you wanted to get in the "look guys i'm townreading dragons even though datisi is pushing him" like, didn't seem like you wanted to actually talk to me about why you thought he was scummy at the time. again the "very weak defense not meant to change anyone's mind"

i don't know what is the "that" post you're referring to, but no i don't really care about the fact he made a readslist post the lolhammer. i think his reactions d2 have been townie

I don't really see what my read on dragon in twilight has to do with you at all, honestly, and it seems like a massive stretch to me that you're trying to make me giving a tr to dragon in twilight a setup for pushing you (especially you in particular)
Especially b/c other people similarly were scumreading dragon after the hammer - atsi voted him, even, and ausuka also indicated she was not townreading him
Like sure i could have elaborated more then
But framing this as - 'i'm townreading dragon and didnt talk to you abt it in order to push you in particular' is on the surface a stretch, and even more of a stretch given that i didn't talk to atsi or ausuka abt it either - i don't know why you're especially drawing a connection between the read and *you*

Also you started the day off voting dragon, idk why you're acting like this isnt relevant
Sure you've since changed your mind but based on eod1 you were scumreading him. I'm saying i don'f think you (or anyone) should have been based on his twilight behavior. I don't really know why you're dismissing his twilight post as irrelevant, i think it's extremely relevant

I don't feel like you're countering my point for why i think it's townie, you're just saying you don't care. And my point is that - dragon is a very, very easy push, and it's very easy to just dismiss the good posts, which is what you were doing at daystart

Like ausuka is also scumreading him, but she is taking relevant pieces of information into acct (i.e. the making reads post). I think her conclusion is wrong but she's obviously at least thinking abt it and trying to use it to draw a conclusion. You're just like - this isnt relevant
When it is

[skitter30]

god i feel like town-skitt would take this opportunity to actually talk about her read on me and why she's voting me instead of these very bland responses

but fine - why are you voting me?

You feel off and performative and your reads and trajectories don't make sense to me
I don't understand your reasons for scumreading me, and when you explain it i just go ... ok? doesnt feel like a real read you have (or ever had) conviction in, and it was easy to sheep shea on it
Now it's easy to push dragon, and i don't really feel like you're taking into acct how likely it is for scum to behave the way he did around hammer

you are like, aware, that i'm not pushing dragon? like, surely? like, your "you're doing what's easy!" narrative here is completely wrong?

also sorry i feel like the "you feel off and performative" is a really easy thing to say that can't be falsified, even when some other people have said you're wrong (ausuka iirc)

my scumread of you makes perfect sense and i'm kinda tired of being told "it doesn't make sense" and i'm feeling like it's a scum tactic

i need to go do an IRL thing but i have more things to say / respond to i think, be back later

You were at daystart? Idk what your point is, you started the day voting him, you clearly were intending to push there
Sure you've since changed but i don't think that changes my point

[skitter30]

I liked that it felt kind of original and went back to dragoneater after the initial rush on him had died down and everyone had kind of expressed a view not to lim him

like marci said no
i said no
skitter said no
you switched too

atsi is the only one still trying to vote DE off
dragon eater isnt going to vote himself

so like is it really going to be convincing any1 to lim DE?

I think one thing scum like to do is move with thread flow and it feels really counter intuitive to maintain course here if she's mafia when she could probably do better supporting skitter against you or just bus skitter if she's partnered with skitter?

I guess you could say like she's trying to pull skitter out of 1v1ing you to reroute back to dragon but like i feel its not the first thing that comes to my mind for how she approaches this situation as scum

i switched but i don't think i'd really said i townread him? like i reskimmed my post i don't think i gave a vibe of "i'm townreading / not-scumreading dragons now"

assuming atsi isn't scum with ausuka, and assuming scum-ausuka can sway me to vote dragon again (espeically if she can sway me to start scumreading him again) then her partner can bullshit a scumread on dragon and there you go -> i'm

not

saying this is definitely what is happening but i don't think it's super implausible as a scum plan from scumsuka POV

i'm not great at having good reads as town and i think ausuka is well enough aware of that to be trying to have me on the wrong yeet of dragons

ari, who is scum?

This first paragraph is abt dragon, right?
You're literally hedging on the read ... i'm supposed to think you arent thinking abr pushing dragon?

[skitter30]

Like
You can't at the same time be like

'Skitter why on earth are you possibly thinking i'm pushing dragon'
And
'I reread my post and i'm super confident the vibe on it was not that i'm not-scumreading him'

[Datisi]

Like
You can't at the same time be like

'Skitter why on earth are you possibly thinking i'm pushing dragon'
And
'I reread my post and i'm super confident the vibe on it was not that i'm not-scumreading him'

i'm sorry this is extremely bad faith

yes i voted dragons at daystart. but then i was like "ok i'm not that confident on it, let's push something else"


like whether or not you think i'm still scumreading him or not is irrelevant. the fact is you're accusing me of pushing dragons as means of it being very easy. like 702 very clearly implies i'm scum just doing whatever is easiest, and in that sense to ignore the fact that i'm not pushing dragons at all right now and am instead pushing *you*, and not acknowledging how that fits into your "datisi is scum pushing easy things" worldview at all, is very bad faith

[Datisi]

ausuka: i think dragons is scum for eod1 posting
skitter: *thumbs up*

datisi: i don't think dragons' eod1 posting makes me lean town or scum on him
skitter: *angy*

like yeah ok. i dismissed his ubertownie post at eod1, and that's apparently worse than outright scumreading him for it. do you think scum-me would struggle to make up a bullshit scumread there? like i LITERALLY HAD ALREADY SCUMREAD HIM AT EOD1 FOR IT then i decided that it's NAI actually but no that's bad

also i'm townreading him for d2 posting but that doesn't matter because i'm discarding his eod1 posting and that's easy

sorry can you not see how this sounds from my POV?

[Datisi]

I don't really see what my read on dragon in twilight has to do with you at all, honestly, and it seems like a massive stretch to me that you're trying to make me giving a tr to dragon in twilight a setup for pushing you (especially you in particular)
Especially b/c other people similarly were scumreading dragon after the hammer - atsi voted him, even, and ausuka also indicated she was not townreading him

sure let me be more elaborate about it i guess. you guessed that there will be people wanting dragon blood after he hammered TL and after TL flips green - confirmed me because i was already seeing red, but also maybe someone else jumps on it as well - and you know that IF, townies push dragon through on d2, and IF you appear as the white knight who tried to stop it but failed, you will be in an EXCELLENT position going into f5

like this is not a stretch. this is some basic scumplay planning for f5.

[Datisi]

am i 100% sure this is what is happening? no of course not. but i really don't think the narrative of "scum-skitter saw a townie that just shit the bed, and is preparing to vaguely defend him while hoping he still goes though on d2" is like, very difficult to see? or to imagine town-me coming up with?

[skitter30]

I don't get how this is bad faith
You started the day pushing him and you made a point of saying to someone else that when you switched it off it wasnf to give the impression that you were *not* not-scumreading him

How am i supposed to interpret that comment to ari? What did you mean there?
Like what exactly is your stance on dragon and how do you square it with ehat you said to ari?

You also arent addressing the meat of my scumread either

Pedit i see the latter two posts but i have a meeting at 10 so later

[Datisi]

datisi: pushes dragon (easy push)
datisi: starts pushing skitter (difficult push)
skitter: wow you're only doing things that are easy, you're scum

what is difficult here? where am i wrong?

[Datisi]

I don't feel like you're countering my point for why i think it's townie, you're just saying you don't care. And my point is that - dragon is a very, very easy push, and it's very easy to just dismiss the good posts, which is what you were doing at daystart

why do i need to counter it? if you're town, you think you're right. if you're scum, you're probably right. i am not currently pushing dragon and in fact i have said I THINK HE IS TOWNIE FOR D2 POSTING. why does it MATTER that i'm townreading him for something that isn't that?

[Datisi]

But framing this as - 'i'm townreading dragon and didnt talk to you abt it in order to push you in particular' is on the surface a stretch, and even more of a stretch given that i didn't talk to atsi or ausuka abt it either - i don't know why you're especially drawing a connection between the read and *you*

that's not what i said, i said i didn't like that you didn't explain the townread at eod1, not that you didn't explain it *to me*

i guess kind of *to me* but that's because i was the main "omg dragons is scums" at eod1 and i'd expect you to talk to me (or whoever is present) before the thread lock about it if you had that read

lmk what it is that i'm not addressing ig

[DragonEater70]

Oh yay, several pages for me to read!

GIve me a bit.

[DragonEater70]

@ausuka I mean yeah if she wasn't upset with skitt it would be even more unbelievable. we still don't really see it

dragon eater has been townier lately so VOTE: temporal is a poe vote we're comfortable with

assuming dragons scum, why would scum kill infinity here?
i dont think dragons is scum >.>

I think I already asked but maybe it was on Day 1 so whatever, I'll just again:
Who do you scumread right now?

i had a dream where this game had no mafia but marci was a cult recruiter and she recruited me on n1 but i just didn't get around to reading the pm until last night and then i was like 'woah this is scum marci' and marci was taking the game super seriously and had loads of notes in the scum pt

I think this is slightly towny for no particular reason other than Ausuka being open with her thoughts.

Morning!

my reads don't feel very good this game i guess?

Let's engage. What are your reads other than me = scum?

i would arrange it like

aristeia, marci
datisi
atsi, skitter
dragon

my reads don't feel that strong but there you go? i'm not sure ari would kill infinity and i think marci's enthusiasm about the fruit thing is like, +town, probably

So Ari tr is based solely on the nightkill? Like I do understand the logic behind it but they're your top TR, so like is there any other reasoning behind it or only that?

Also, would you be willing to vote Atsi right now?
cause I don't want to vote myself and I still don't think it's Skitter (though I'm starting to have a bit of doubt on my reads because I was pretty confident on NS being scum here)

ari tr isn't solely based on the nightkill. i thought the way she was talking to temporal lich at eod felt towny and i feel like scum her is less likely to treat my miller claim this way when she has every excuse to hate it

uh, right now no? i would be willing to convinced to vote there, i think atsi could easily be scum, but they are not like my #1 read rn

Okay so here's my reasoning why I think Atsi is scum:
Basically, they made a very superficial push against me, a very easy to push slot, and have not really explained their scumread (other than "you lolhammered so you scum" repeated in 3 different phrasings). Also, and this is more important, all the questions they direct at other players feel like filler questions with zero intent to sort the player that they're aimed at and with no follow up.

tbh i just don't really see why scum wouldn't pivot to the reads before the night falls

like, to me sharing reads then makes most sense if you think you could possibly get nightkilled, which there was a 0 percent chance of happening to dragon eater. for me at least if i don't think i have things i want to share before i (potentially) die i would usually just wait until d2 so i could see an extra flip and read with that context?

the response from dragon eater being to make a reads list just felt like "oh fuck i was careless and accidentally fucked up all my town cred, i feel like i'm letting my partner down! i need to do towny things asap"

Did anyone even read the post where I voted Lich, like at all? I said I have some reads I want to share but I'll share them later, then I realized I'd hammered so I decided to share them now. I don't see how this is is being interpreted as a super scummy move.

ausuka why aren't you voting dragon

Good question.

I kind of feel like scum Datisi doesn't have a reason to pivot to 1v 1ing skitter instead of just running over DragonEater here because like running over DragonEater feels like the easiest thing for scum Datisi to do?

I do agree with you and I think Datisi has been consistently towny here. Like a lot of his posts feel uninformed in a way that is hard to fake as scum, and just in general the vibe of his posts is pretty good.
Also I think you're slightly +town for pointing it out (Datisi, please don't start lecturing me now about Aristeia's scum range, I want to at least have SOME townreads).

what if the team is skitter/ausuka

then what

then we're fucked frfr

I don't understand why we fucked if you and Ari seem to be suspecting both of them rn? IDK if this question makes sense, but how can you be fucked if you're scumreading scum?

i don't think discussing "how likely is it that cakez gave x or y fruit as a fakeclaim" is productive at all because none of us can prove anything about it

what's townie about 655? the way she's like... obviously she does not townread dragons, but the fact that she's not voting makes me feel as if she was hoping some town sucker (aka me) would lead the push there so she wouldn't have to get so much blood on her hands, but surprise surprise my 3 neurons decided they wanted to do something else instead

dragoneater has a total of one (1) vote so i don't think that explains the hesitancy to actually vote there

also not to do preflip or anything but ausuka and skitter have taken the polar opposite stance on dragon pumping out a readslist after realizing he's accidentally hammering but they're not interacting with each other about it in a way that i would assume they would i guess? like they're friends this feels weird

also sharing reads before nightfall is really not that uncommon. ausuka is correct that it probably is Optimal Play to not do that unless you have high nk equity (am i using "equity" correctly there? you get my point) but i def think that "oh shit thread gonna close soon, i need to get my other thoughts out" is not that uncommon of a thought among townies and i just really hate the way she framed it in her post?

It's an interesting take, I want to think about this. Like I still tr Skitt, but I can see the Ausuka case. Lemmie ISO her in a bit and I'll say what I think.

[marcistar]

i had a dream where this game had no mafia but marci was a cult recruiter and she recruited me on n1 but i just didn't get around to reading the pm until last night and then i was like 'woah this is scum marci' and marci was taking the game super seriously and had loads of notes in the scum pt

we call it the slay cult

[Datisi]

dragon, imagine a world where skitter and ausuka really are the scumteam

is town EVER winning that game? no, no it's not

[marcistar]

@ausuka I mean yeah if she wasn't upset with skitt it would be even more unbelievable. we still don't really see it

dragon eater has been townier lately so VOTE: temporal is a poe vote we're comfortable with

assuming dragons scum, why would scum kill infinity here?
i dont think dragons is scum >.>

I think I already asked but maybe it was on Day 1 so whatever, I'll just again:
Who do you scumread right now?

i had a dream where this game had no mafia but marci was a cult recruiter and she recruited me on n1 but i just didn't get around to reading the pm until last night and then i was like 'woah this is scum marci' and marci was taking the game super seriously and had loads of notes in the scum pt

I think this is slightly towny for no particular reason other than Ausuka being open with her thoughts.

Morning!

my reads don't feel very good this game i guess?

Let's engage. What are your reads other than me = scum?

i would arrange it like

aristeia, marci
datisi
atsi, skitter
dragon

my reads don't feel that strong but there you go? i'm not sure ari would kill infinity and i think marci's enthusiasm about the fruit thing is like, +town, probably

So Ari tr is based solely on the nightkill? Like I do understand the logic behind it but they're your top TR, so like is there any other reasoning behind it or only that?

Also, would you be willing to vote Atsi right now?
cause I don't want to vote myself and I still don't think it's Skitter (though I'm starting to have a bit of doubt on my reads because I was pretty confident on NS being scum here)

ari tr isn't solely based on the nightkill. i thought the way she was talking to temporal lich at eod felt towny and i feel like scum her is less likely to treat my miller claim this way when she has every excuse to hate it

uh, right now no? i would be willing to convinced to vote there, i think atsi could easily be scum, but they are not like my #1 read rn

Okay so here's my reasoning why I think Atsi is scum:
Basically, they made a very superficial push against me, a very easy to push slot, and have not really explained their scumread (other than "you lolhammered so you scum" repeated in 3 different phrasings). Also, and this is more important, all the questions they direct at other players feel like filler questions with zero intent to sort the player that they're aimed at and with no follow up.

tbh i just don't really see why scum wouldn't pivot to the reads before the night falls

like, to me sharing reads then makes most sense if you think you could possibly get nightkilled, which there was a 0 percent chance of happening to dragon eater. for me at least if i don't think i have things i want to share before i (potentially) die i would usually just wait until d2 so i could see an extra flip and read with that context?

the response from dragon eater being to make a reads list just felt like "oh fuck i was careless and accidentally fucked up all my town cred, i feel like i'm letting my partner down! i need to do towny things asap"

Did anyone even read the post where I voted Lich, like at all? I said I have some reads I want to share but I'll share them later, then I realized I'd hammered so I decided to share them now. I don't see how this is is being interpreted as a super scummy move.

ausuka why aren't you voting dragon

Good question.

I kind of feel like scum Datisi doesn't have a reason to pivot to 1v 1ing skitter instead of just running over DragonEater here because like running over DragonEater feels like the easiest thing for scum Datisi to do?

I do agree with you and I think Datisi has been consistently towny here. Like a lot of his posts feel uninformed in a way that is hard to fake as scum, and just in general the vibe of his posts is pretty good.
Also I think you're slightly +town for pointing it out (Datisi, please don't start lecturing me now about Aristeia's scum range, I want to at least have SOME townreads).

what if the team is skitter/ausuka

then what

then we're fucked frfr

I don't understand why we fucked if you and Ari seem to be suspecting both of them rn? IDK if this question makes sense, but how can you be fucked if you're scumreading scum?

i don't think discussing "how likely is it that cakez gave x or y fruit as a fakeclaim" is productive at all because none of us can prove anything about it

what's townie about 655? the way she's like... obviously she does not townread dragons, but the fact that she's not voting makes me feel as if she was hoping some town sucker (aka me) would lead the push there so she wouldn't have to get so much blood on her hands, but surprise surprise my 3 neurons decided they wanted to do something else instead

dragoneater has a total of one (1) vote so i don't think that explains the hesitancy to actually vote there

also not to do preflip or anything but ausuka and skitter have taken the polar opposite stance on dragon pumping out a readslist after realizing he's accidentally hammering but they're not interacting with each other about it in a way that i would assume they would i guess? like they're friends this feels weird

also sharing reads before nightfall is really not that uncommon. ausuka is correct that it probably is Optimal Play to not do that unless you have high nk equity (am i using "equity" correctly there? you get my point) but i def think that "oh shit thread gonna close soon, i need to get my other thoughts out" is not that uncommon of a thought among townies and i just really hate the way she framed it in her post?

It's an interesting take, I want to think about this. Like I still tr Skitt, but I can see the Ausuka case. Lemmie ISO her in a bit and I'll say what I think.

ari
and now ive been thinking its u too since ive been paranoia thinkign about this shit

[Aristeia]

dragon, imagine a world where skitter and ausuka really are the scumteam

is town EVER winning that game? no, no it's not

I am sad you have so little faith in us :<

[Aristeia]

i don't think discussing "how likely is it that cakez gave x or y fruit as a fakeclaim" is productive at all because none of us can prove anything about it

what's townie about 655? the way she's like... obviously she does not townread dragons, but the fact that she's not voting makes me feel as if she was hoping some town sucker (aka me) would lead the push there so she wouldn't have to get so much blood on her hands, but surprise surprise my 3 neurons decided they wanted to do something else instead

dragoneater has a total of one (1) vote so i don't think that explains the hesitancy to actually vote there

also not to do preflip or anything but ausuka and skitter have taken the polar opposite stance on dragon pumping out a readslist after realizing he's accidentally hammering but they're not interacting with each other about it in a way that i would assume they would i guess? like they're friends this feels weird

also sharing reads before nightfall is really not that uncommon. ausuka is correct that it probably is Optimal Play to not do that unless you have high nk equity (am i using "equity" correctly there? you get my point) but i def think that "oh shit thread gonna close soon, i need to get my other thoughts out" is not that uncommon of a thought among townies and i just really hate the way she framed it in her post?

I guess I just think atsi makes much more sense as a skitter partner if they're running the yeet dragon and then skitter takes control on f5 plan ?

[skitter30]

I don't really see what my read on dragon in twilight has to do with you at all, honestly, and it seems like a massive stretch to me that you're trying to make me giving a tr to dragon in twilight a setup for pushing you (especially you in particular)
Especially b/c other people similarly were scumreading dragon after the hammer - atsi voted him, even, and ausuka also indicated she was not townreading him

sure let me be more elaborate about it i guess. you guessed that there will be people wanting dragon blood after he hammered TL and after TL flips green - confirmed me because i was already seeing red, but also maybe someone else jumps on it as well - and you know that IF, townies push dragon through on d2, and IF you appear as the white knight who tried to stop it but failed, you will be in an EXCELLENT position going into f5

like this is not a stretch. this is some basic scumplay planning for f5.

Ok sure, i get how scum-me is set up perfectlu for f5 (if dragon indeed flips, and if dragon is town)
My issue is that you're framing my townread on dragon as a push on you in particular, when i don't think the two are inherently related at all

Also i already addressed why i'm treating ausuka differently

[skitter30]

Dats
One of of my present issues is

How ur trying to say you're not pushing dragon
While also deliberately positioning yourself as not having a read on him (i.e. in the context of whether or not ur open to voting him)

I don't understand this mindset
It looks to me like you're trying to get points for not pushing him
While leaving yourself open to pushing him

[Aristeia]

I don't really get the impression that Datisi is leaving himself open to pushing dragons? he's like been accusing ausuka of trying to trick him into voting dragons ?

[Aristeia]

it feels a lot more like paranoid town than scum who is angling to revote dragon-eater if there's actually support there?

[Aristeia]

ok I guess if you squint you can think Datisi is asking Ausuka to vote dragons so he can hop back on the dragon wagon but that's kind of a stretch?