Large Normal 244 | Quotes From my Linear Algebra Professor or Random City Skylines or Random Songs: Town Wins!

[davesaz]

The number of the day is -1.
VOTE: Merlyn

[davesaz]

I'm blissfully unaware of the thing that Flavor posted about on pages 2 & 3. Like literally no idea at all what it was about. Pedit the live action whatever it is...

[davesaz]

An early d1 self vote is hardly giving up. It's most likely to be a joke, and if he's scum it's the perfect time to try to look townie.

[davesaz]

do you believe scum is that scummy and would self-vote

me when I give up

Ah, the giving up thread came from this. Seems like a kind of drive by shade.

[davesaz]

Nah shade is too strong for that. Self deprecating.

[davesaz]

Looking at TemporalLich on pages 13 and 14, really not liking the focus on "thoughtstreaming means town" nor on the response to being pressured.

[davesaz]

not really?

if TL is town, hes frustrated

if TL is scum, hes frustrated or at least pretending to be

not that much to derive

This thought is reasonable for the general case, but I don't think it's as 50:50 as portrayed here in the specific case.

[davesaz]

I’m feeling pretty comfortable with this group of 4 of us posting right now, though. I’m hesitant to town Duck based on pocket paranoia, but i am liking the interaction, so I’d be okay leaving Temp as Occam’s town, and keeping a close eye on the lich.

The Lich, The Duck, The Leaf, and The Virgo.

The Jackson 4.

UNVOTE: Temp

Uh Oh, the block tell.

[davesaz]

david - no content but i like the impression of iavh dislike the impression of flavor

What do you think my impression of Flavor is?

Pedit
VOTE: JacksonVirgo pagetop this

[davesaz]

I think FL is SLIGHTLY townlean but that’s more due to being sus of the people on his wagon than anything else because he’s such an easy target

If by easy target you mean his play up to that point, yeah I can see where you'd see it this way. It's even possible he was fishing for exactly that reaction.

[davesaz]

gah, after 1 with a 8am meeting

[davesaz]

heh, bad timing on where that post came through lol

[davesaz]

Re 847 being a scumslip or not, I can see the possibility that's being discussed but I thought it was more likely to be an individual meta interaction.

[davesaz]

You’re not gonna get a whole lot from me today, there’s too much noise.

We should honestly policy lim whoever we think is the hardest to read player and go to night

If I were going to be willing to join the wagon it would be the policy talk. But I think this post is a d1 spam hater venting.

[davesaz]

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

[davesaz]

how exactly is Shrek scum?!

880 feels like a thoughtful post to me

What's thoughtful about that post?

[davesaz]

i feel it has no merit other than 'hard to read' and 'flavor fever'

Its a mix of, people who know you well wouldn't blindly town-read you on the beginning, as its very NAI in general, and I feel he gut-read it to be scum, so I feel its fair (read: Not necessarily a scum trying to force a vote or a push) move.

i think it's just super easy and a coast tactic

I mean, to be fair, that is true.

I just think its NAI

sure, but being NAI too much is AI as the game goes on.

So I dont really like that defense from you, but it's noted.

it looks like you're trying to stop any analysis on the BBm from happening. It's one thing to defend, but I think you're protecting them, and it has scum potential from you who wants a possible unaligned scum or BBm to keep pressure on me that way.

Quoting these for future reference.

[davesaz]

I prefer ordered read lists as it's the order that is important for determining where I vote and push, not the tiers

This sounds like someone who only wants to push where other people are pushing, which amounts to overly cautious.

[davesaz]

well how do I avoid even the slightest possibility of being accused of waffling?

Embrace the waffles, they're yummy.

[davesaz]

The 4th (or so) vote when it's 12 to eliminate is hardly significant.

BTW

@mod, if it's not too much trouble please add the number of votes to eliminate to your boilerplate

pedit: gotta admire pisskop for the effort. We'll see how the conclusions come out at the end.

[davesaz]

This is on a soft read through of that game too, but I do think there's merit in this being scumTemp.

do you have a town game to compare it to because i don’t 100% buy that the way he makes lists here and there is a scum habit of his

remember, it's not just that as a reason, it's just another thing in the overall package.



viewtopic.php?p=13781490#p13781490

here's a lead rist

[Town]

Firebringer - Very towny, very Firebringer
Doctor Drew - Very good at generating content and appearing trustworthy
NorwegianboyEE - A town mindset, this can be seen in 213
Peregrine - For some arcane reason I townread Peregrine
Klick - I quite like posts 228 and 314 though I do want to see the sorting soon
Enchant - Very weakly town, mostly due to me thinking Enchant is playing normally
Here There Be Dragons - towny vibes but not much else for me to comment on
Students of Prudence - I don't like the opening but I can see a town mindset

below this is what I'd consider the PoE

Malakittens - pretty much NAI
Ranger - No content, but effectively V/LA so hard null here
zoro - No content, hard null
Frogs - No content besides a scummy reaction of a vote on Here There Be Dragons (not having the game sorted is apparently scummy? what?), linked by associative to WhemeStar so if WhemeStar flips scum Frogs is very likely scum
Theta Alpine - Very good at blending in while not producing any meaningful content
WhemeStar - A quick ISO skim tells me scummy mindset, also defends (not pockets, defends) frogs and I still don't like post 300

[Scum]

IMO, this one is much better, and while their reads list are the same, the distribution is different from that of their scum game.

Technically TL is 3p in the linked game, and I was curious when I found that one exactly what the Kraken did to the targeted players. That's for another place though...

[davesaz]

If it weren't multiball I'd be inclined to strong town read going to that amount of work to meta someone with links and everything.

[davesaz]

david - no content but i like the impression of iavh dislike the impression of flavor

What do you think my impression of Flavor is?

Pedit
VOTE: JacksonVirgo pagetop this

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

This voting is a red flag for me

You haven't seen an old guy smack a youngster to get their attention?
Yeah, I know that isn't politically correct any more.

[davesaz]

Who are you smacking?

Umm, the people being voted... Did you look at it in context or in iso?

[davesaz]

Jackson vote was in response to the incessant extra posts to grab pagetops. (technically the smacking reference was just to that vote)

cCS vote was in response to this.

i forgot i had a vote ngl

It was naked to see if anyone would pay attention to it being naked, which basically got no response at all until now.
Now I'll need to refresh my memory on who I thought might come to cCS's aid.

[davesaz]

I haven't been reading and don't scum read JV lol.

You're just outside of the venn diagram

That's sets, not linear algebra.

(also here's an example of trimming down quote pyramids, a fine skill to have)

I think

iamveryhappy

was just making good on a threat regarding nicknames.
The "claim" was pretty out there, but I decided it didn't deserve comment at the time. Now that others have broken that plane, I'd say such a hypothetical role would not be normal so it can't be serious.

[davesaz]

I read a page or so of it, started to get a headache, and skimmed the rest.

[davesaz]

It’s only a contradiction if Town was not allowed to progress and change their reads. But we are allowed to, so it isn’t

IIRC you even explained the progression, unless I'm thinking of a different one.

[davesaz]

That could be a TMI slip.

[davesaz]

Oh. I combined multiple games of mine together, and was remembering posts that weren't from this game.

Fair enough, I'm actually having a small amount of that myself.

[davesaz]

Page 68 (and before) I really don't like d1 attempts to team hunt, especially in MB, but I know this is not a very popular position.

[davesaz]

He’s doing the one two hit zingers, and when i throw down a flame boiled big ol streak charred broiler, they just move on

i just don't find your arguments as impressive or interesting as you want to say they are

A good skill to learn is filtering FL to focus on the posts where he isn't talking about himself.

You too obsessed with me Psyche

I think you might be your own biggest fan...

FL? Nah, never...

Do you really think Psyche starts posting at you the way they have done just now if their teammate just fumbled the bag?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know Psyche well enough to say as an individual, but I have seen it go both ways with others.

[davesaz]

Hyperbole, I’m a performer

I believe this is one of the keys to being >rand at this game. People who are unable to be performers when they need to tend to be <rand.
Unfortunately I'm definitely not in the able to perform category. Mechanics is pretty much the only thing that keeps me in the hunt most of the time.

[davesaz]

i'm not drowning but my arms hurt, i'm just laying on my back and hoping i can stay afloat

I was under the impression that ducks can just sit on water.

[davesaz]

This is

not in order of reads

but here is a brain dump mostly from memory.

Random Nurse - seems under performing for someone who was actively recruiting, would have to re-read for more than that
Flavor Leaf - would be strong town if it weren't multiball
pisskop - seems towny
Hu Tao - I get a feeling of shallowness, but don't know if that's AI in this situation
camelCasedSnivy - I had a scumread when I voted but don't think the reason still holds. would need to re-read
Doctor Drew - can't really remember much, which is moderately surprising
Save The Dragons - another that I can't remember much about, less surprising
Aisa - somewhat towny is the impression I remember, but would need to re-examine for motivations
Cat Scratch Fever - Play feels active, but perhaps selective. Will be a good one to look at more closely after flips
Naerys - haven't noticed them very much
Klazam - seems low effort, not very towny but not explicitly scummy
Psyche - not afraid to push a different direction from consensus
bob3141 - was vla for a big part, probably won't be fully engaged this day (though the posts which came while I was writing this are looking up)
iamveryhappy - hard for me to describe. maybe more reactive than proactive but I'd need to re-read
TemporalLich - fearful and appeasy. extremely self conscious. if town, would be an endgame liability
furtiveglance - probing questions and doesn't feel pressured when opinions are contrary to the group
ZZZX - quite reactionary, gets into arguments. could be "caught for wrong reasons syndrome" but I think personality conflicts are more likely reason.
the worst - was vla which limits material. very at ease which gives a very slight townlean
bbmolla - doesn't like d1 and not afraid to say it. can't sort for that reason
Shrek - has been intermittently active, doesn't stand out enough for a read
JacksonVirgo - would be strong town if it weren't multiball
shaddowez - I've seen posts but TBH did not pay enough attention to them

[davesaz]

just got a ping that Hu tao responded to me

What does this mean? I know the site has changed since I played last so this is more an informational question.

[davesaz]

flavor leaf might as well be a thaumaturge regardless of flavor leaf's actual role

What's a thaumaturge? Certainly not a role I've ever heard of.

[davesaz]

VOTE: CSF

compensation

compensation for what?

[davesaz]

There were things that I hoped would happen to give me data to analyze later, but they haven't.
ZZZX didn't stay E-1 long enough to see if the player who promised they were on board with the hammer after they posted reads would have followed through.
There haven't been multiple E-3 or better wagons at the same time.
Partly my fault for not just picking one and adding to it. Partly the fault of those who have been mini-wagoned and voted themselves instead of countering somewhere. Lots of people who are off the main wagons and most of them are stale.

VOTE: iamveryhappy

[davesaz]

Furtive, you act like you don't know that MB can't be scumhunted the same way as a regular game.
I might not have much D2 either. It depends on whether a web of associations forms or not.

[davesaz]

Exactly, and in MB the things that would naturally result in town reads aren't necessarily good enough.

[davesaz]

I played a 5-scumteam 102 player game on another site. The star of that show complaining that his style of game wasn't allowed on MS was what prompted me to check out the site.

[davesaz]

I'm looking at what other people said about Klazam instead of what Klazam said. Short on time before driving to work but these jumped out as possible partner talk, especially when you combine with votes.

I'm slightly hesitant to place Klazam at top read as Klazam has been top scumread at one point

both shrek and klazam are my confident townreads

they have made excellent posts

pedit: that sounds like an excellent PoE

I think I remember Klazam both trying to work against a TL elim and also acting willing to elim there, which feels bussy to me in retrospect.

[davesaz]

Got prodded, oops. I’ve been reading along but so much going on, felt I could not really interject, esp on a phone and having to stuff to do.

Some thoughts from me-

Agree that Hu Tao is still scummy
Being placed as super town by Temporal, worst, and uh someone else feels wrong to me given that my only contribution was that day where I actually read and posted.

Will try to make another post tonight or so, I have some thoughts about the various discussions over the past few days that I wanna look at and point out things.

Sorry mod!

and for some other context, here is another Klazam post with a strange read on the worst

Klazam says the exact same thing about you, what do you make of that?

[davesaz]

Does that also fail on goons? Guessing that's what FL meant by complex...

[davesaz]

Assuming I'm not just wrong about goons looking "vanilla" to a complex role, I'm trying to figure out how a complex vig even makes sense. The only way it has utility is if scum has a PR, and the vig hits it. Even finding out someone is vanilla is only useful in a place where nobody ever fakeclaims as town. In a world with town fakeclaims, being complex isn't even a reliable lie detector.

[davesaz]

I'm down to PL people who only post in bold.

[davesaz]

Sorry, PE.

[davesaz]

I feel like RN is acting, not genuine, especially with the repeated pounding on people to answer when the answers were right there in the thread.

[davesaz]

I feel like RN is acting, not genuine, especially with the repeated pounding on people to answer when the answers were right there in the thread.

Flimsy.

I ask people directly because I a) can't be bothered to read everything and b) I prefer the most direct approach and getting it straight from the source.

You may not appreciate it but people play this game in different ways. My strength is in being direct and aggressive, engaging people

directly

.

The proper place to put the emphasis in what I posted was on repeated.

[davesaz]

Psyche has got to go out today. If he's a wolf, he is going to possibly claim my shot if all goes well or just back out like "oh they were just vanilla" and slide by as a VCop or something like that. He's a vigilante that is not confirmed to get confirmed anytime soon, he needs to go now. That and it's also semi-destructive for Town if it hits a Town PR.

I doubt the claim from a mechanics point of view. It does not make sense for that to be a town role, and even if it's a town role it does not make sense to use it.

[davesaz]

I'd have just hammered hu tao earlier if I were scum knowing I can't verify my role.

This doesn't hold any weight with me. Hammering in that situation might get you eliminated faster the next day.

[davesaz]

Allowing myself to listen to meeting in the background and read this. Not seeing anything that changes what I'm thinking. I prefer the mechanics based fade.
VOTE: Psyche

[davesaz]

I've never quite understood the fascination with "vigs proving themselves". Claiming an extra kill

might

prove the player has a kill, but it still doesn't really prove anything about alignment. Unless SK's have become not a thing while I was away? And in the absence of anything else that might cause an extra night death? Not to mention you have to sacrifice someone and the odds are strongly against town even when it's directed.

[davesaz]

I'm spending less time on MS, simple as that.
If you don't want me to play then you know what to do.

I also don't believe a town full BP. It would be great, but I don't think it's plausible from a balance perspective. Too high a probability to get to a 1v1v1 that ends in no decision.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Random Nurse
Willing to sheep a TR, and as I said I don't think it's possible for that claim to be town.
Don't think this will actually go anywhere but it will be enlightening in any case.

[davesaz]

I certainly don't buy the "it was meant for a private note" explanation.

[davesaz]

If it's meant to be a crumb then it means the BP claim is false.

[davesaz]

Mech is the only way I play. I came back because I missed doing logic puzzles, and so far this isn't it.

[davesaz]

On page 179, yeah I agree more than one purportedly identical town RB sounds unlikely, unless this is one of those joke setups where nothing is intended to get results.

Pedit: 9 posts in the time it took to type 1 sentence...

[davesaz]

ʜdt ƨi tƨυį

posting in code?

[davesaz]

Poorly, there aren't enough mech results to go by.

[davesaz]

That's about 50-50 the absolute truth and tongue in cheek. The almost a page of posts about another game didn't help. It being MB and not knowing which of the obvtown might very good scum doesn't help either.

I had about 20 minutes to read up, make a couple posts here, and start a minecraft server before I have to go to bed, and about 10 of that is gone already. Tomorrow is yet another day of getting up at least an hour earlier than normal due to meetings scheduled by people 3 timezones later than me. 10am for them is 7am for me.

reminder for those who haven't seen me in long enough to possibly forget

Spoiler:

I

never

lie about RL

[davesaz]

What if I claim I'm a JOAT with

- Vigilante
- Loyal FV
- Friendly Neighbour
- Traffic Analyst
- Role Cop
- Commute
- The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass

What's the projected number of nights in a MB game of this size?

[davesaz]

anything strengthened from here?

A lot has changed on a few of them, given you didn't redact the departed.
Some, maybe even a lot, on the living. But it won't be tonight. 10:50 pm

[davesaz]

I shared that one of the Scumteams know that I am BP.

When did you say that? (me being RN without the bold and caps)

[davesaz]

I confirm that Random Nurse is bulletproof.

You confirm you saw it being said, or you confirm it.
If you're confirming it, how are you able to do that?

[davesaz]

that meeting is starting now, and I'm the leader of the meeting.

[davesaz]

Like why not fake claim anything else

why did you RB RN N1 again?

if town nothing happens
if scum i could block a kill

Thats true of any slot

If town PR, you may prevent a possibly game-changing action. So "nothing happens" is the wrong way to think about RB. I'd like to see a lot more about why RN would be the chosen target.

[davesaz]

pisskop i thought you wanted me to solve

what happened to your solving i feel like all your recent posts are just shading me

A lot of the time, people say they're being shaded because they are in the shadows.

[davesaz]

Thats true of any slot

i mean i also scumread him then i thought that was implied

Did you though? Was it stated somewhere? Anyone can explain an action post facto by saying it was a scumread, but that isn't really an explanation.

[davesaz]

I'm open to limming TL, JV, STD, or Dave currently.

TL because he keeps repeating himself without giving actual reasoning. Same with JV but I also want closure on that JV/Psyche matter. STD I want closure on if there's two Town RBs or not. Dave is also lurky AF and barely provides reasoning.

I'll start with me. I'm doing what I'm doing on purpose. I have said as much in the thread. Part of it is time, and part of it is MB, not really being sure of a TR until after they flip. That makes it harder to distinguish the real scum from those who look scummy, as I literally have to suspect everyone.

I suspect TL, not just because of the repetition, but because it's completely reactive. Switching to match the opinion of whomever criticized you strongest and most recently is classic scum wanting to blend in and not rock the boat.

JV is the closest thing to a real TR that I have within the MB constraints. I see their approach to the early part of the Psyche matter as a town approach. Scum wanting to soft a guilty don't help their victim by suggesting ways out.

You can read my other posts about STD.

[davesaz]

What bothers me about RN and BP claim is that my concept of playing that role is to attempt to draw kills and reduce the body count. Claiming it is the last thing I'd ever do. In MB, scum are motivated to try to claim it to avoid getting crosskilled. Scum capable of being widely TRd can do this without much fear of getting copped. Unkillable ICs are unbalanced, so it makes me doubt there is a way to verify it.

[davesaz]

Your reply earlier implies you

know

that RN's BP claim is true. Care to comment on that interpretation of what you said?

Pedit: I took that as a joke. TBH I take almost any d1 claim as a joke.

[davesaz]

I believe I was asking for evidence of a scumread. Searching ISO this is the first reference.

holy fuck there are a lot of people in this game

loosely ordered this is kind of where im at

town
Save The Dragons
furtiveglance
TemporalLich
Flavor Leaf
Cat Scratch Fever
Naerys
Psyche
iamveryhappy
the worst
bbmolla
davesaz
Random Nurse
pisskop
shaddowez
Shrek
Klazam
Doctor Drew
Aisa
camelCasedSnivy
bob3141
JacksonVirgo
Hu Tao
ZZZX
scum

What day is this post? Above the middle is how I'm reading that?

Leading another meeting...

[davesaz]

End of day 1 was 2920 for reference.

[davesaz]

So more scan, as long as I don't have to talk...

[davesaz]

I'd like to see a lot more about why RN would be the chosen target.

@STD did you not perceive this as an invitation to give that rationale?

[davesaz]

OK so T3 was not able to confirm or deny the existence of a Serial Killer in this game.

Yes, why would he ever be able to deny it?

I figured it was worth a shot just to check.

I also agree that that isn't a question that can be answered.
You shouldn't be surprised that I find it odd that one of the people suspected of being a SK would ask.

[davesaz]

I'd like to see a lot more about why RN would be the chosen target.

@STD did you not perceive this as an invitation to give that rationale?

i was on mobile and couldn't quote very well but no i did not see that

Thanks. I'll finish reading up and give an update.

[davesaz]

STD's claimed N1 action makes sense. If an extra kill shows up, remember this. I don't remember what was said, if anything, about N2. If you aren't faded, it would be wise to give us your top 3-5 scumreads daily as a precautionary measure.

I still think it's sus to claim a BP. Why do that up front instead of allowing some kills to fail?

[davesaz]

Here's a thing I thought about last night between leaving the computer and falling asleep.
Someone mentioned Enchant before they replaced in.

I don't currently SR StD. That's pending a deeper look but the N1 answer looks town to me.

[davesaz]

Even if I agreed that RBing RN on N1 made sense, where do you think an extra kill would come from in the future, based on the NA's already revealed?

With the possibility of doubles, we have not established yet what an expected kpn is. I think SK is very much still a possibility.

[davesaz]

Your reply earlier implies you

know

that RN's BP claim is true. Care to comment on that interpretation of what you said?

Pedit: I took that as a joke. TBH I take almost any d1 claim as a joke.

This was directed at Enchant. Don't think I've seen an answer. Can't tell if it's direct evasion or not. If I look at the totality of the ISO I'm not getting a town vibe there.

Furtive, I think you're town (or at least more likely than not given it's MB) but your tunnel is kinda annoying. I'm not going to pop off a read list on command. For the most part, there is meaning in the things I say. I'm almost, but not quite, incapable of just joking around. If you have trouble interpreting what the meaning is, that's an area of potential growth.

[davesaz]

VOTE: davesaz

Save the Dragons!

CSF tomorrow.

We should lim Save The Dragons because of this associative, full stop

Is this an actual novel, unprompted position? Not sure how to react if it is, I had given up hope of seeing that from TL.

[davesaz]

naeryus or however you spell it is also a good choice for targetting a lurker tbh

How do you define lurker? I see this as a very shallow post.

[davesaz]

ok sure

VOTE: STD

this is almost too good to be scum but sometimes enchant is just scum

Also, wtf is this reference to Enchant in a vote on STD?

[davesaz]

I'm not sure what town motivation there is to intentionally stall out the Save The Dragons wagon by moving a vote from that wagon to the davesaz counterwagon

Noting that CSF's vote fits this profile, and their vote onto STD doesn't seem to have any reason either. In fact, I'm generally not seeing any drive behind CSF's play, it seems fairly unguided and random. That's from a quick skim so if I'm wrong please provide references.

I kinda doubt that STD flips scum after revisiting the timing of d1 (implied in my earlier posts btw), but this is good info anyway.

[davesaz]

This boomer would prefer you don't meme, tyvm.

[davesaz]

I suppose after the fact explanations are better than nothing.

[davesaz]

Hey furtive, you haven't really mentioned Shrek at all. Any reason to leave him out?

[davesaz]

Day 3 VC 5:

Save the Dragons (5): Cat Scratch Fever, Naerys, Aisa, shaddowez, camelCasedSnivy
Cat Scratch Fever (4): furtiveglance, TemporalLich, pisskop, Save The Dragons

First significant recorded wagon change of today, from CSF to STD.

[davesaz]

I suppose after the fact explanations are better than nothing.

Are you just reading ISOs? The reason why I stopped voting STD should be pretty clear and not after the fact. The reason why I voted in the first place maybe less clear but can still be gleaned from reading surrounding context

I prefer to see it in the post.
And I don't see it as being obvious in the context either.

[davesaz]

I don't think there is a town motivation behind jumping to me, but my thoughts are colored by knowing I'm town.

[davesaz]

I don't think there is a town motivation behind jumping to me, but my thoughts are colored by knowing I'm town.

Okay, why should we townread you?

Evidently it doesn't matter what I do, you aren't.

[davesaz]

TL has b3en sheeping the whole game. At the first sight of someone disliking an idea it gets retracted immediately. This is the first one that

I have noticed

that seems original

to me

.

The premise behind the wagon redirection is

if a scum flip then...

. It's meaningless if STD is town. I think it is still worthwhile to comment on that even though my guess is STD town.

STD saying rb target on RN is town indicative (if true claim) because scum might fake claim BP in a MB game. Scum has no good reason to claim RB until a tpr complains, and 5hen as an oops claim.

Wow writing this on tablet is painful.

Feel free to ask stuff. Unlike many in this game I won't mind. Though it's bedtime so be prepared to wait a bit.

[davesaz]

Re measured and logical. No shit, I'm a programmer. I can't be illogical. The higher percentage thing isn't always what's in the game and I'm beginning to think I should just assume that actual is whatever doesn't make sense.

[davesaz]

Dave had a slight push against RN early on

If you think my push is slight, please recalibrate your expectations.
I'm not one of those people who posts every 10-20 minutes yelling about people joining me.
I made my point succinctly and clearly. A verifiable full BP is so close to a guaranteed town win (or worst case tie) that I don't think it would be balanced. Suppose JV sends their loyal fruit to RN, and RN's claim is true.
I think RN is lying, plain and simple.

[davesaz]

Enchant, what's the chance that both scum teams chose to shoot the biggest UTR in the game?
I don't see any discussion of the Flavor kill.

[davesaz]

c /see/remember/

[davesaz]

There is a goldilocks zone for discussion, this game keeps flipping from one side of that zone to the other. Either too many posts or not enough lol

[davesaz]

Are you really asking someone who was vla why their vote didn't move?

[davesaz]

I was pretty confident that furtive looked to be solving, but that's going downhill pretty fast. And it's not only because he's tunneling me.

[davesaz]

Dave had a slight push against RN early on

If you think my push is slight, please recalibrate your expectations.
I'm not one of those people who posts every 10-20 minutes yelling about people joining me.
I made my point succinctly and clearly. A verifiable full BP is so close to a guaranteed town win (or worst case tie) that I don't think it would be balanced. Suppose JV sends their loyal fruit to RN, and RN's claim is true.
I think RN is lying, plain and simple.

@Dave

what do you think of my post on RN's bulletproof claim:

Rn I think is scum but I can't figure out what N2 STD is if he's scum

But I don't think RN lies about being bullet proof in one game and miraculously gets to be whatever convenient bp he's claiming in the next

Disagree with this take
I was very alarmed initially because until this post I was assuming RN was trueclaiming (I townread RN). It turns out he did fakeclaim BP in the game STD appears to be referencing, Mini Normal 2309. But, despite the fakeclaim, he was town there. So I don't think the BP claim is a reason to scumread RN

I think being MB makes this a different kind of game. The existence of a town BP fakeclaim from RN in a prior game is less important to me than the increased motivation/reason to fakeclaim it as scum in this game.

[davesaz]

I kinda doubt that STD flips scum after revisiting the timing of d1 (implied in my earlier posts btw), but this is good info anyway.

What did you mean by "the timing of d1"?

STD started scumreading RN after the BP claim. Earlier I thought it was before.

[davesaz]

I'd be interested in what you thought of 5129, CSF

His TL read doesn't really move the needle, because I can't verify what he has or hasn't noticed in this game so far

I think the second line about wagon redirection is fine. Dave's comment in 5060 initially looked like strange shading to me, but I can believe that it's NAI for dave to comment on even though he doesn't think STD is scum

I think his STD townread makes sense, but dave was shading STD after the claim too.

Spoiler:

TL has b3en sheeping the whole game. At the first sight of someone disliking an idea it gets retracted immediately. This is the first one that

I have noticed

that seems original

to me

.

The premise behind the wagon redirection is

if a scum flip then...

. It's meaningless if STD is town. I think it is still worthwhile to comment on that even though my guess is STD town.

STD saying rb target on RN is town indicative (if true claim) because scum might fake claim BP in a MB game. Scum has no good reason to claim RB until a tpr complains, and 5hen as an oops claim.

Wow writing this on tablet is painful.

Feel free to ask stuff. Unlike many in this game I won't mind. Though it's bedtime so be prepared to wait a bit.

What specifically in the spoilered post do you think is "shade"?

BTW if you didn't get this before, IMO scum say that people are shading. Town don't do that.

[davesaz]

Is Davesaz inactive?

Are you oblivious?

[davesaz]

I think the second line about wagon redirection is fine. Dave's comment in 5060 initially looked like strange shading to me, but I can believe that it's NAI for dave to comment on even though he doesn't think STD is scum

Perhaps you misread 5060. By saying you fit the profile, I'm straight up saying you're scum if the flip hypothesized in the profile ends up being the case.

[davesaz]

Anyone remember why ZZZX's initial wagon on d1 disappeared?
By VCs alone iavh as a counter to zzzx makes sense. Not sure I want to sift through 100 pages that blew by too fast to remember it all.
Enchant (the slot formerly known as zzzx) is active, but are they solving?

[davesaz]

I tend to say things without actually saying them. The implications are clear enough to me when I'm typing.
My previous post means I think Enchant could be scum. I haven't decided if it's worth starting a wagon with only 2 days left.

pedit: oh someone's actually here, that's good

[davesaz]

I don't mind the idea of a cCS elimination. cCS is saying a lot of things that I see scum say a lot. In particular the asking for opinions on people before giving one.

[davesaz]

the wagons went happy>zzx>happy


and teh fact we have 2 3 scum teams means that single team would have limited pressure

Having happy there first doesn't matter much.
If you're saying VCA is useless then why are you focusing on it?
It's only one of the factors I noticed about Enchant.

[davesaz]

In response to 5293
Any wagon that starts (or picks back up) after a large wagon forms is a potential counter wagon. It's the definition.
Whether it is one or not depends on alignment of the 1st and the motivations of the people voting the 2nd.
At this point, for me it's a question. Hoping someone knows offhand and it isn't necessary to dive all those posts.

[davesaz]

Someone asked if I'd vote STD to save myself.
It's more accurate to say I'd vote STD to ensure an elimination. A no-lim due to inability to agree just reduces town's influence on who is here tomorrow.
I can't lie though, I do prefer surviving to another day.

[davesaz]

Ordinarily I despise lurker pushes, but would happily consider gob (formerly known as Shrek).
I certainly haven't ever TRd that slot.

[davesaz]

Can you repeat those reasons please? I'd prefer not to have to search such a large iso.

[davesaz]

Actually, say something specific about gob, that's all recent.

[davesaz]

Let's see what happens if I do this.
VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

[davesaz]

First day in more than a week that I haven't had to get up earlier than normal.

Question for gob, who is this ZZZX you're referring to?
Bob and Naerys, the quote pyramids are getting kinda high, maybe hilight and quote the most recent thing?

Camel non-voters, do you see something specific that leads to a townread? Especially anyone moving off camel.

[davesaz]

Certain reads that aren't evolving to match changing circumstances are causing me to rethink those players.
Yeah, I know I said basically nothing. Interested to see what conversation will result. My updated (or not) reads will come from the conversation, if any.

[davesaz]

If you don't have an opinion then sheep mine. I think they're scum they didn't vote at all yesterday and day 1 they were off the main wagon as well. I think they're the "wolf off the wagon" in VCA terms. They've been posting recently btw.

Taking a cue from one of Bob's points, you can get more from looking at a wagon dynamically than statically.
Did you look at Shaddowez's posts related to yesterday?

[davesaz]

Absent, and said so. I didn't look beyond that, my tendency is to straight up believe anything that looks like it's RL given I expect the same from everyone else.

[davesaz]

That's a hint about my earlier, admittedly enigmatic post. When I said time was short for me because of meetings every day starting before my usual wakeup time, I meant it. Lack of adjustment to those facts is mildly scummy to me.

[davesaz]

He isnt playing. He looks just as bad as dave, with even less content.

This is seriously starting to piss me off. I'm providing a lot more content than a lot of people.
If you don't think so, I expect an explanation.

[davesaz]

He isnt playing. He looks just as bad as dave, with even less content.

This is seriously starting to piss me off. I'm providing a lot more content than a lot of people.
If you don't think so, I expect an explanation.

im suprised you were wagoned last day, why it feels like your wagon was heavily motivated by one of teh scum teams to me

TBH I expect it early game because I really don't do banter and there is literally nothing to go on. It becomes a stress issue for me when there isn't an adjustment later in the game.
Coming back from hiatus I decided to try to embrace this to look for who fails to realize I'm not LHF any more once there is actually something to comment on.

[davesaz]

I would't let Naerys dictate mafia kills if i was mafia teammate that's for sure.

Trying to say you're not a teammate here? Trying to figure out why that's something you'd want to say as either alignment.

[davesaz]

Besides starting at your conclusion, youre saying that the NKA of both kills supports her being scum.

She cant be on both teams. At least one of those kills could not have been made by a terrified naerys who chose 2 highly townread players.

It's easy to make the mistake of saying / reading "both" when what is really meant is "either".
Being a suspect for both means that either one could have been that person's target.
The probabilities are added, not multiplied, and we can only eliminate one. Someone who fits both weakly is a better choice than one who fits only one weakly. A strong fit is always better than a weak fit.

I don't think NKA is as good here as other methods, but if we're going to use it, at least use it correctly.

[davesaz]

TL's back to that thing I noticed before, of immediately changing as soon as it looks like an idea might be unpopular.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Enchant
The time is long past for random votes. This is scum trying to bet that enough misguided town will go along with what seems like an easy one.

[davesaz]

Today is a go to the actual office 45-minute drive each way day. Therefore, not doing time consuming things here for at least the next several hours.

[davesaz]

More activities yesterday than last Saturday leading to way less screen time. I'm shocked at how little I had to read to catch up.
I'm willing to vote CSF but would prefer to put in a little time on looking at things. Until the next non-screen activity drags me away.

[davesaz]

I'd still rather have Enchant btw. Nobody has really explained how that slot it town. I see their play as a mix of opportunistic and irrelevant.

[davesaz]

I feel like TL is trying to manipulate this to a quick elimination. This is additive to my feeling they're trying to cultivate being townread by quickly dropping any idea that gets strong opposition.

I can see molla being scum and haven't had any town vibes there, was hoping there would be more to the case. Probably worth spending some time on it.

I'll have to re-read gob to verify this is the case (in particular the not giving reads part), but in the meantime I'll make the observation that asking people for their reads a lot while barely giving any of your own is a scum technique for figuring out who is dangerous. This is compounded by a sense of opportunism, but again I'd need to re-read to see if it's really there.

I don't see anyone responding to the challenge of towncasing Enchant. The emphasis that some people make on TRing others for being easygoing escapes me. How is lurking by saying a lot that means very little better than saying nothing?

Still have in the back of my mind that RN might be scum who fakeclaimed BP, first with 2-shot and then with full. Badgering people and jumping on their "unwillingness to answer" is easy to do if you're scum wanting to appear town in MB, and it pairs nicely with saying you're unkillable. The way to approach cracking RN would be to find out who wasn't badgered, though the possibility it was theater means you can't totally discount that even.

Bob seems towny. I'm willing to explain if necessary.

Naerys being willing to start pushing someone else feels towny. I wasn't paying enough attention to remember what she was doing right before that.

Pedit:

@mod I remember seeing TL vote no-elim but don't know if that was the most recent vote

[davesaz]

never mind, skimmed over the molla vote

Pedit: I saw the no-elim vote as a tantrum "waah you aren't quick-limming, I'm gonna take my toys elsewhere". That's manipulative if you view it in the flow.

[davesaz]

Since I agree with that, I'll move my vote from the one I want but isn't happening to the other one I want that might. Squicks me a little to be following TL onto that wagon but in any case...

VOTE: BBmolla

[davesaz]

For the record I'm not opposed to CSF. Going fast is useful when you have a mechanical reason to, but 5 days is nowhere near being in danger of a stall so get as much voting action as possible for analysis.

[davesaz]

I don't know how to read the worst. Under ordinary circumstances, voting me without reasoning is a huge red flag, but it's plausible a town but very disconnected worst could be stuck with the impression that my earlier low activity was AI. Molla on the other hand clearly knew that I was admitting to slow playing to form reads based on how people reacted to it and still thought that was scummy and I see that as a red flag. Also the following people onto me when it looked like it might blow up.

[davesaz]

In reading furtive with respect to his read on me, it feels like solving behavior. That's not a full throated town read though, because refusing to budge in the face of what I'm doing when I have more time but not going strong on a push either means it isn't an ordinary tunnel. I have a big enough POE that he isn't a priority at the moment.

That's what I have time for before meetings start.

[davesaz]

If this is 3vs3 scumteams then likelyhood that spread of mafia teams are Mafia Goon+PR+PR

Given how negative utility the known town roles are, I think you're overestimating mafia power.

Basically you voting roughly towniest player in the game.

Certainly not by play. I'd say we're voting roughly the scummiest player in the game.

[davesaz]

If its 3v3 it probably makes more sense if theres 1 pr and 2 goon

That makes more sense with one each complex and regular vig.
I don't think it really helps to speculate, given we have only one target by Psyche and presumably 5 scum to find, and on top of that if one of the RB went there then maybe the no result is meaningless anyway.

[davesaz]

I am done blindly following. There is too much of “they are scum” and others hopping on blindly happening. Try to make some cases folks. Like some seriously taken cases. Its time to put some effort, townies. Or scum will play us like a fiddle

+1

[davesaz]

There's mech evidence that BBMolla should't be voted really

Only in a world where you think there aren't goons.

[davesaz]

STD lurked this game

I disagree.

[davesaz]

I'm voting BBMolla for actually doing what the people voting me are incorrectly saying I'm doing.
He's naked voting and prod dodging. There isn't a shred of evidence backing anything he's saying. There is no reason to townread him, and plenty of reason to scumread.

[davesaz]

There is a little catch though. We dont know if Psyche shot went through.

Our two town RBs both said they targeted somebody not Psyche N1. Do you think one of them is lying, or do you think that there's another RB PR out there?

I don't think Drew gave a target. We're interpreting crumbs at best in that case.

[davesaz]

In all that you haven't given a single reason why you think I'm scum. Nobody can, because there isn't one.

[davesaz]

Blue and red is absolutely pointless without at least one more scum flip. Not ordered within tiers.

davesaz
shaddowez
pisskop
camelCasedSnivy
bob3141

Naerys


TemporalLich
furtiveglance
the worst

Random Nurse

Cat Scratch Fever
Enchant
BBMolla
gob

[davesaz]

Where does Enchant scumreads come from

If you're asking where Enchant's scumreads come from, I'd like to know that too.
If you're asking why people scumread Enchant, you can find my reasons pretty easily. You'll also find that they are pretty against the grain, as in not agreeable.
Ditto on my gob scumread.

[davesaz]

Tempted to slap vote for the intentional pagetop, but the joke got less mileage than I hoped for the first time.

[davesaz]

Why is TL mid tier? I remember you scumread his posts because they would change when there was pushback

That is correct. I feel RN is in a solo class and there is a playstyle component to my TL read that results in placing him with the middle instead of the bottom. If I didn't want RN to stand alone, then that would be where TL goes.

[davesaz]

I feel like not doing anything until under pressure has more scum qualities than town.

[davesaz]

VOTE: CSF

[davesaz]

Honestly Snivy, look at the NK. Do you think as a scum i would kill molla, whom i pushed so badly and attracted already do much attention? Or furtive who was one of those who didnt suspect me all that much? Think,please

In a multiball game, when crosskills are a priority? If you're scum who thinks someone is other team and you can't get them limmed? When WIFOM can be used to try to say you (or your team) couldn't have made that kill? This type of argument doesn't hold any weight with me.

[davesaz]

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy
Same reason as JV earlier in the game.

I have a strong dislike for being VT. My play style is heavily mech focused and this game basically has none left.

[davesaz]

When I play Minecraft, I build complicated engineering structures using tech mods. I don't build nice looking houses for people to admire. Ditto mafia.

[davesaz]

Pagetopping

[davesaz]

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy
Same reason as JV earlier in the game.

I have a strong dislike for being VT. My play style is heavily mech focused and this game basically has none left.

What do you think about the fact, that the only hammered wagon shaddowez sat at was csf?

Interesting observation. I might be able to get something from flow if there is an opportunity. Folks seem to be in a hurry without much of a reason and that could mean something.

[davesaz]

My top scumreads are still Enchant and gob. Molla was in that category along with csf and all of them were for the same reasons. I'd be happy with 50% on this.

[davesaz]

I policy vote pagetoppers and spammers. Being over 60 is a contributing factor to that.

[davesaz]

One vote is not a push. It's laughable to talk about it that way. I'm drying off after a shower and only have one finger right now. Seeing you go nuts over it is both entertaining and thought provoking. More later when I don't have to use auto complete.

[davesaz]

Back at the computer where I can type tags & stuff.

UNVOTE: message delivered. We'll see if it's comprehended or not.

VOTE: Enchant
Before someone comes in with "but dad, scum wouldn't be that obvious..." -- that's exactly why scum would stonewall a hammer instead of hammering a partner.

If you didn't infer it from my earlier posts today, I also find Naerys posting that those kills can't possibly be her right out of the gate to be scummy as hell. We aren't supposed to use things like timestamps any more so I didn't look how long she had to absorb the kills and decide what to say. Left as an exercise for the curious.

[davesaz]

Having a mechanical role, or results from such roles, lets me build a web of interactions. That kind of web leads to revealing inconsistencies where someone is lying, and the lying tend to be scum. In the lack of such a web, play based on logic is left with nothing to work with, at least noting verifiable.

Finally having votes on a verified scum wagon opens up legit VCA, but really doing anything more than talking about surface level stuff takes more than a few minutes.

[davesaz]

Forgot to say that 1st section of the previous post was in response to being criticized about the minecraft analogy. I know I often leave out the connections that let mortal brains understand my analogies.

[davesaz]

I'm trying to sort you

If you would care to do more than anyone else has to explain what you're seeing, a conversation may be useful.

[davesaz]

"not complex" simply means goon. Which made Molla no less likely to be scum than any other vanilla.
That was my answer before and it's still my answer.

[davesaz]

There's mech evidence that BBMolla should't be voted really

Only in a world where you think there aren't goons.

[davesaz]

I don't see you voting for flipped scum yet.

[davesaz]

Someone (Naerys?) asked about shaddowez's vote history.
This is from ISO and just searching for vote, which means some context could be overlooked. It's easier to do it this way first and then revisit anything that gets pointed out.
It's the first step of what would be an iterative process if it looks like it might be yielding something.

Alright, I'm caught up. Willing to sheep on bianco, but I feel better with this right now:

VOTE: ZZZX

If there is a reason, it's context.

I need to lrn2read. I'm confused by what you mean with your second point, but it makes more sense than it being a random post in thread.

VOTE: BBmolla

Although I'm not against joining JV on camel either. Coming in to point out a scumslip, without actually voting that person, while having their vote still on a random target, gives me scumfeels.

This one is also likely to be context. Actually having read and commented on the the next quoted vote, I think I remember this one was about a potential post of BBM's which seemed to be meant for somewhere else.

It appears I'm on an opposing schedule from most of you, I leave for the day and come back to 20ish more pages.

VOTE: the worst

this is the worst player by far

This was after T3 let us know they were V/LA in 1236. Even if you have no reads you're putting a vote where nobody else is even looking, essentially just parking for no good reason. It's not even like you're trying to get a wagon started on them since you provided no good reasoning except a pun on their name. You also vote parked on Merlyn early on for not doing anything, while not engaging.

Approximately half of your votes are fluff, and with the exception of the thin case on BBmolla none of your votes have had any semblance of logic behind them.

The random post from BB still doesn't make sense to me, but the more I think about it the less it makes sense as a slip either. Going to look at IAVH a little more before sheeping that wagon, but I'm comfortable here for now:

VOTE: camel

I think I liked this one when it came across. Realizing that pushing a so-called slip is potentially worse than the slip itself.

Another naked sheep vote, and looking at their ISO there's literally a single post interacting with bob and zero where bob is directly mentioned. Referring back to the good old "agreed" read list, bob is null.

Reviewing the posts around pisskop's link, also saw this:

I actually liked how worst was willing to question Temporal on their read on me even given earlier stance on how worst thought Temp was not the place to go today, instead of doubling down and ignoring Temp.

Gonna be a hard sell to move me right now.

VOTE: the worst

Backed by what appears to be some good reasoning.

are still no takers for snivy, wagonomics says shoot there or atleast soemone that jumped on both hu wagon last day and dragon here

I'm not against a Snivy wagon. Hell, let's see what happens.

VOTE: Snivy

Baaah. But going back to a scumread means it isn't necessarily the bad kind of sheep.

I'm gonna go rogue here for a bit. Call me crazy, to be fair you're probably right

VOTE: furtiveglance

Gonna totally need context for this one. In the context of the question I'm looking to answer, it also matters what the VC was at this point in time.

Did an FL/ZZZX ISO, and tried processing through all the noise. My ZZZX SR was based on early posts, and not something I had gone back to revisit in a while. Rereading, the push looks really thin and I'm REALLY not liking

the worst

's positioning and vote, though I'm trying not to tunnel. Still working through things, gonna check out IAVH next because I owe that a read.

can you summarize what you're feeling on worst in specific because we might share the same opinion here

Heading to lunch, will answer this when I get back though

They're not really voicing their opinions on anything. They ask a lot of questions, specifically regarding peoples reads. On the surface, that sounds towny insomuch as it

looks

like they're scumhunting, trying to derive whether the person they're asking questions of had reasons or whatnot. The problem is they don't ever seem to actually do anything with that info, outside of occasionally a reply post.

None of their votes have had any reasoning behind them (as in, they hadn't expressed any interest in voting prior to doing so), and with the exception of their very first (RVS) vote they've just sheeped early on.

So now that I've gone and done this again, I still don't like Snivy but feel like this is a good place to push.

VOTE: the worst

Seems well founded.

Not quite caught up yet (who am I kidding, I'm not even close to caught up yet), but I like this wagon. Was starting to look at STD before the last lim. Reasons forthcoming

VOTE: STD

Will have to look at the context after. If the vote stayed here then it shows the "never on the lim wagon" charge is false, but I didn't link unvotes.

There's definitely not much to go on in Klazam's ISO, but based on how he handled the votes/interactions with our known townies now I can easily see 2324 having been an early bus.

CSF's memory regarding Aisa being on StD's wagon and subsequent "defense" in 5664 seems a little "Oh crud, I got called out, what do I say?". The only posts Aisa have about questioning the StD wagon are 5328 and 5443, which I wouldn't personally categorize as "quite vocal".

Her early readslist is becoming more and more suspect as well. I'm happy moving here

VOTE: CSF

Seems to have a reason, mostly in context.


All in all, this doesn't look bad to me in isolation, though certain votes would need a 2nd stage of review to see what the count was at that point and whether the context supports it.

[davesaz]

Read this iso (presuming it works, if not I'll try a thread link instead).
Check my alignment that game.
Compare to this game.
Pull your heads out where they can get more light.

[davesaz]

It's like he 'solves' the parts of the games he can and doesn't touch the other parts.

Obviously I can't solve the parts that I can't solve. Do you have any idea how stupid this post sounds?

[davesaz]

The game of mafia in general is actors vs. neurodivergent vs. normals.
The first kind can make you think they're town when they're scum, the 2nd kind look scummy no matter what because they're automatically "different" all the time, and the 3rd kind have actual differences in their play that you can read by.

I know from a big enough sample size that a majority of people on the site automatically assume I'm scum from my posting. I have no clue why, and probably no hope of ever finding out why.

[davesaz]

Practically speaking, Cop never included in setup with infinity Town Bulletproof to prevent unkillable innocent.


Or mafia have way to kill you thought protection.


My prediction is that team which knows about you being BP has no idea how to counter you, but other team has strongman.

Claiming was mistake i think.

I confirm that Random Nurse is bulletproof.

You confirm you saw it being said, or you confirm it.
If you're confirming it, how are you able to do that?

I confirm both.

Why am I the only one (that I can remember) who sees this pair of posts as a scumclaim?

[davesaz]

Imagine you want to make big post of fake PR crumbs to confuse everyone, but then you iso your previous slot which claimed VT and then stopped playing. Oh well playing competently is not option so.


Hey i am new what blue mafia good do?????????7

VOTE: CSF

Or these posts, Enchant's first two, which have special meaning when you connect the word blue in the 1st post with a CSF vote in the 2nd.

Hey Dave, why didn't you bring this up before? Umm, because we didn't know CSF was blue then.

[davesaz]

Prediction that both scum team are 3p. MAYBE 4p but unlikely. Maybe traitors but that would be wild.
Prediction that both teams have atleast one Mafia Goon due Complex Vigilante.

Or this one, which contains a traitor soft.

[davesaz]

In chain of evidence terms, I had already thought Enchant was avoiding trying to independently solve. Enchant flat refused to hammer CSF. I assumed these quoted posts were just "water cooler talk" replacing in, but in hindsight they look like signaling. There is a furtiveglance reply to her CSF vote but we can discount that from being other team member since he's flipped town.

[davesaz]

I had thoughts on predecessor too, but it's drive my son to work time. It will be so much easier when he gets his own car.

[davesaz]

There never would be, other than softs.

[davesaz]

There never would be, other than softs.

Well, we have a BP claim from Random, and a missing kill.

The type of traitor that survives 1st shot and converts? And then doubling up on BP claim after surviving to keep the other team from shooting?
If they're both convertible traitor (with Enchant not converted and softing) then we have a real problem.

We all assumed it was just a double shot or a RB who didn't/couldn't claim their block.
This theory would also reinforce the idea that the game's theme is uncertainty.

It's all just a mech theory, and I'm painfully aware that we've had a town lie mess up our thinking already.
It's much more satisfying than a town unlimited BP who guarantees a happily ever kingmaker by living to 1:1:1

Pedit:
I'm going to keep my post anyway.
OK, someone posted that convertible isn't normal. Can normal games have a limited number of non-normal roles? I'm at least 2 years out of date.
That doesn't prevent Enchant from being a normal traitor.

[davesaz]

They aren't acting like a towny about to get voted of.

Explain what a towny about to get voted does? And how what I'm doing isn't it.

[davesaz]

Blue and red is absolutely pointless without at least one more scum flip. Not ordered within tiers.

davesaz
shaddowez
pisskop
camelCasedSnivy

bob3141

Dragon

Naerys


TemporalLich

furtiveglance

the worst

Random Nurse

Cat Scratch Fever

Enchant

BBMolla

gob

Stuck? Let's see, it's clear that Naerys should be moved to the bottom for that awful start of day.
Tell me, oh great one, what else about the last day and night should prompt me to move?

Enchant -- flat refused to vote the lim of the day while not doing anything to explain why
gob -- weak oblique approach on mislimming me, while not doing anything to find 4 people in the form of 2 pair
Naerys -- The flail at start of day

That's only 3 so I'm 1 short. RN with the claim that's hard to believe because who designs a game that's destined to end in tie, TL whose opinion flaps about like a flag in the wind, and the worst who falls in with the crowd pushing me for basically nothing.

[davesaz]

How is "leading the CW to scum" a credential to be proud of?

[davesaz]

VOTE: gob

[davesaz]

I can see most of your reasoning, but why are you townreading shadow?

It's mostly an absence of things that ping me as scummy, so call it weak and anti-POE (already have more than enough suspects). I posted a vote analysis recently. Haven't examined the context of the unexplained ones to see if there is anything fishy that I've overlooked.

[davesaz]

What is the traitor? Can someone explain that to me

Are you asking what the role is? Wins with mafia and knows who the team is, but the team does not know them and there is no communication vehicle other than nods and winks in the game.

[davesaz]

@Enchant, if you were actually reading my posts you would see that I had been away for years, and noted in the pedit that someone already pointed out convertible traitor isn't normal, but

I chose to post what I was thinking anyway

[davesaz]

Enchant or Naerys would be options, they both have high partner equity with CSF.

[davesaz]

Why you even bother explaining something to me if you want to 1v1 me so hard.

I'm voicing my displeasure at being disrespected.

Discrediting is the only way you can respond to the traitor stuff. Maybe responding to it will help others see your reaction to it for what it is.

[davesaz]

I'm more interested in Enchant->CSF interactions than in CSF->Enchant, given the possible traitor soft.
Scum who missed the implications wouldn't know they're on a supporter.

Was there ever any danger of a lim in those interactions? I know ZZZX was top wagon at some point of D1, so where CSF's vote changes occurred would be important.

[davesaz]

Difficult to say, as I don't especially know what anyone is seeing that's scum indicative.
My position that Psyche's complex vig wasn't likely to be real turned out to be wrong, though the principle hasn't changed that a town vig that can only kill PRs is negative utility.
From my point of view I'm just doing what I do.

[davesaz]

VOTE: CSF

compensation

compensation for what?

ISOing myself to try to help. Came across this, which I wonder if it was ever answered. Making a note to check.

[davesaz]

ok sure

VOTE: STD

this is almost too good to be scum but sometimes enchant is just scum

Also, wtf is this reference to Enchant in a vote on STD?

Also came across this, don't think I've seen a satisfactory answer but I might have missed it.

[davesaz]

i keep going back to dave's case on shaddowez and i'm finding myself like... perplexed

it feels like a case which is finding reasons to townread someone rather than a case which is actually things which dave has thought about shaddowez in the course of assessing his alignment in this game

but also dave is actually genuinely motivated to consider the alignment of shaddowez regardless of dave's own alignment and he kind of just, like, proves that shaddowez is presenting internal consistency

idk i don't think it really changes anything for me i'm just hyperfocus

If this is regarding the post where I put shadow's votes, it is nothing more than an answer to the question "what do you think about shadow not being on any lim wagons".
Calling it a case indicates you may not have read it.

[davesaz]

i keep going back to dave's case on shaddowez and i'm finding myself like... perplexed

it feels like a case which is finding reasons to townread someone rather than a case which is actually things which dave has thought about shaddowez in the course of assessing his alignment in this game

but also dave is actually genuinely motivated to consider the alignment of shaddowez regardless of dave's own alignment and he kind of just, like, proves that shaddowez is presenting internal consistency

idk i don't think it really changes anything for me i'm just hyperfocus

If this is regarding the post where I put shadow's votes, it is nothing more than an answer to the question "what do you think about shadow not being on any lim wagons".
Calling it a case indicates you may not have read it.

i understand that. i categorise it as a case because it seems to be an unpopular and very strong read of yours and that's the most justification i've seen for it - am i missing something?

It's not a strong read. See 6742 (hope I remembered the number right but really it's not hard to find at all)

[davesaz]

Blue and red is absolutely pointless without at least one more scum flip.

Not ordered within tiers

.

davesaz
shaddowez
pisskop
camelCasedSnivy

bob3141

Dragon

Naerys


TemporalLich

furtiveglance

the worst

Random Nurse

Cat Scratch Fever

Enchant

BBMolla

gob

Stuck? Let's see, it's clear that Naerys should be moved to the bottom for that awful start of day.
Tell me, oh great one, what else about the last day and night should prompt me to move?

Enchant -- flat refused to vote the lim of the day while not doing anything to explain why
gob -- weak oblique approach on mislimming me, while not doing anything to find 4 people in the form of 2 pair
Naerys -- The flail at start of day

That's only 3 so I'm 1 short. RN with the claim that's hard to believe because who designs a game that's destined to end in tie, TL whose opinion flaps about like a flag in the wind, and the worst who falls in with the crowd pushing me for basically nothing.

Let me enlarge the text to make things a little clearer.

[davesaz]

I can see most of your reasoning, but why are you townreading shadow?

It's mostly an absence of things that ping me as scummy, so

call it weak and anti-POE

(already have more than enough suspects). I posted a vote analysis recently. Haven't examined the context of the unexplained ones to see if there is anything fishy that I've overlooked.

An "anti-POE" read means that someone makes it into the town group because there are more than enough in the anti-town POE and not enough reasons for that person to bump someone else out of the POE.

[davesaz]

I'm willing to listen to reasons on shaddowez being more scum than the others I put at the bottom. If anyone's reads are high confidence this game I'd be suspicious of that.

[davesaz]

Let me enlarge the text to make things a little clearer.

i feel like top townread & very strong townread are pretty equitable. why do you strongly townread shaddowez?

i really struggle to like, intimately scumcase shadd i don't think scum are particularly obvious in this game i just do not townread him at all and i'm in a place where i'm looking for a bit more nuance than what he's given us

6752 and repeated in 6823 says that shadow is a

weak

town read, primarily because I already have more than enough scumreads.
You flat out aren't reading what I'm posting, and that's bugging me big time.

[davesaz]

Those last few posts are a prime example of why I think gob is scum.
It all seems thoughtless but contrived at the same time, like there is a goal in mind and post whatever fits that goal whether it lines up with reality or not.

[davesaz]

The best kind of pagetop is the accidental kind. Which is why I have such an issue with people seeing a pagetop-1 post number at the end of thread and rushing to put just the post number at top.

[davesaz]

Today is a drive 45 minutes to the office day, so expect less posting from me. Maybe later if I get some good breaks between meetings.