Open 883 - Swinger's Hall

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: me refreshing this slow site for jingle's pm

i wish you could like posts

[Dannflor]

VOTE: drew

anyone have the game solved in their pts yet?

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VOTE: klick

[Dannflor]

what is a preemptive offensive play

[Dannflor]

answering a question with a question

BWAM BWAM

[Dannflor]

It's a preemptive offensive play when one wasn't really needed

the point of the question is not that i didn’t understand what you might’ve meant

The point of the question is to gauge whether this is a real actual thought or not

because like i question whether this is a real actual thought when

1. Ausuka already engaged in a “preemptive offensive play”
2. you dressed up your thought in thesaurus words for an undetermined reason

[Dannflor]

2. you dressed up your thought in thesaurus words for an undetermined reason

ok is this scummy though

not necessarily

[Dannflor]

It's a preemptive offensive play when one wasn't really needed

the point of the question is not that i didn’t understand what you might’ve meant

The point of the question is to gauge whether this is a real actual thought or not

because like i question whether this is a real actual thought when

1. Ausuka already engaged in a “preemptive offensive play”
2. you dressed up your thought in thesaurus words for an undetermined reason

What real actual thoughts are you looking for on page one of RVS

Can you stop answering my questions with questions im not trying to attack you

I don’t think it’s even scummy if it was not a real thought but you being so defensive and obfuscatey makes it seem like you are guilty!

so like did you just make it up to get some content going?

[Dannflor]

I don’t think it’s even scummy if it was not a real thought but you being so defensive and obfuscatey makes it seem like you are guilty!

I'm not convinced you think this actually correlates with my alignment over just not liking that I'm not answering your questions the way you'd like me to

i do tend to consider answering questions with questions as a scum tell but i don't think it's like a hard and fast slam dunk one

i haven't played with you extensively so it could also just be a playstyle thing too

but it is frustrating to me because it's hard to get a picture of where your head is at

[Dannflor]

do you think ari's reaction was scummy?

[Dannflor]

what do you mean by on a meta level

like you'd expect Ari to have a different reaction as town?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: yessiree

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VOTE: klick

[Dannflor]

i think if we don't vote to eliminate then we are going to have headaches finding mafia later

[Dannflor]

I would like to dance with him so I can yeet him myself and if he flips mafia I would like Cakez to follow next

why would klick ever agree to this

[Dannflor]

you could vote out klick and then yeet yourself with your second-highest scum read if that's the way you want to go

but i think mafia is going to avoid pairing with people who they believe actively scum read them ?

[Dannflor]

i guess but that assumes there won't be a townie with a hero read on klick or something

or that mafia won't have the bravado to pair up anyway

also i don't think intentionally eliminating the ability to wagon people is at all a good idea

I'm not even sure what benefit this would get you besides if you're wrong you don't have to deal with the consequences?? like you should know you're town so voting two slots out that you don't know the alignment of should be preferable to trading 1 for 1

[Dannflor]

like being able to select any two players to lim is much stronger imo than being forced into eliminating a certain player pair

i mean we can still attempt to do this but we are not going to have good reads if we aren't wagoning people d1

[Dannflor]

like for similar reasons I'd prefer no one leaves the dance D1 (I'd even prefer a self-vote if you think your partner is mafia)

[Dannflor]

idk I'm just not really interested in having everyone unvote and then waiting out 7 days of irl time. it just isn't realistic or fun

and like even if it's mechanically "optimal"

i don't believe it would actually increase our EV over generating natural reads over wagons on D1

[Dannflor]

Oh I didn’t think we could vote no lim

[Dannflor]

I would like a little more time for everyone to check in and discuss but I suppose I am fine with this

[Dannflor]

Klick why is RH9 90% town?

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I'm all for a "town decides on a double elimination" but I don't really think it should be Klick and Ari

[Dannflor]

cakez and someone, maybe

[Dannflor]

334 feels like Drew trying to catch Klick out on a perceived logical inconsistency in his read progression

I find this type of focus on logical inconsistencies and logical reads in particular to come from scum a lot more often than town. It's just much more natural for scum to latch onto than any other kind of read (like tone)

there is a possibility that drew is town and having enormous difficulty getting into the game, and that by scum reading this post I am just freezing him out even more

but i think the simpler answer trends towards drew just being scum

[Dannflor]

and tbh my experience with town!Drew is that he'll throw out a lot more vibes / feeling based reads

the reads Drew has outed at this point have been pretty mechanical

assigning town points or taking them away based on inconsistencies or meta differences

I would be surprised if Drew didn't have some more gut vibes here even if he was having trouble really sinking his teeth into the game

[Dannflor]

speaking of tone reads

I kind of town read the indignant tone in Cakez' posting

it's not a great read and probably a better avenue is to see how often he makes that kind of frustrated rage quit post as either alignment but that's the fuzzy feels i'm getting right now

[Dannflor]

I think klick is probably town

less sure on Ari mostly because I'm not sure whether or not I can believe Ari really thought people would go along with the "let's eliminate Ari and Klick" plan

buuut even if she didn't I'm not sure that actually makes her scum

probably since most other people are town reading her here I should just sheep that

[Dannflor]

meuh's posting is scummy on my first read through but she's really not trying too hard to look town so maybe it's so scummy it wraps back around to being town

295 is kind of a towny post

don't ask me to explain why

I worry a little bit about the Meuh and Alisae relationship, like based on what they say is happening in the PT it kind of sounds like there is an overabundance of work being put into that thread for how early in the game we are, which to me would point towards someone trying to pocket someone

I guess my guess would be alisae pocketing meuh but idrk

[Dannflor]

uh ausuka's posting is fine

I don't have a read on it one way or another yet

I read the post on alisae and kinda shrugged like it could be right. ausuka feels pretty relaxed which is probably a good sign? but maybe she rolled a really hype scum team that would suck

[Dannflor]

who else is in this game

RH9 feels kinda pure I guess, but mostly no thoughts about this slot

infinity feels town just based on what they are choosing to pick at, town vibing drew and yessiree got me some :eyebrows: though. explain?

ydrasse is pretty null, i don't love the things she is choosing to comment on. like spending paragraphs talking about ari asking to die doesn't feel super important to me and i have a hard but not impossible time imagining a town brain being obsessed with that but I'm not great at reading ydrasse in general

[Dannflor]

And Dann, you don't think my gut reads aren't based on meta?

it's not really what i said and i feel like again you're like "here's an inconsistency!!" and acting like that makes me wrong instead of trying to solve my alignment or anyone else's

[Dannflor]

SirCakez - Dannflor
RH9 - Klick
Aristeia - Infinity 324
Ydrasse - Ausuka
Meuh - Alisae
yessiree - Doctor Drew

this is probably where I am at, ordered in terms of preferred pair elimination today

my individual reads aren't like a ton different

[Dannflor]

VOTE: yessiree / doctor drew

[Dannflor]

I guess I would advocate for lile a ydrasse / alisae double flip tomorrow?

but i’d probably reevaluate more than that if this were to flip double town today

[Dannflor]

I probably would not have been relaxed enough to make such hedgy posts as scum

I’m just working through my feelings

But yea I kinda scum read ydrasse, alisae, yessiree and drew to varying degrees

[Dannflor]

Why did you conclude I don’t have scum reads

[Dannflor]

yeah I'm not always great at projecting confidence

I'm most confident in drew being scum right now

i think the most concise way to put it is that I don't think klick is being very careful in his posting

[Dannflor]

some of it is wording, like I don't think he's rereading his posts before pressing send or choosing his words super carefully

337 and 339 gave me that impression - he is throwing out a ton of stances, some hedgy and some not

even reading back his early game response to you and me, i feel like it was pretty reactive and not like... careful with regards to how he would come off.

okay so I swear I read through white flag and Klick had made some post at the end talking about he gets anxious about playing mafia and I think I just totally hallucinated that

viewtopic.php?p=13625047#p13625047

I found this post but it's not really the same thing

I guess I would say tonally klick kinda seems like he's enjoying solving this game. the read is weaker than I thought though

I also just generally like/agree with his takes

[Dannflor]

Ydrasse your memory is probably accurate but is missing the context of me losing faith in the process of explaining my half-baked thoughts actually being effective at anything helpful

That might be true for you but I feel like I'd just get a bunch of question marks and votes from enough people in the game to make it not worth

like this exchange with Ydrasse when she pushed him for raw thoughts kind of shows his mindset is to curate what he is putting out in the thread instead of sharing his thoughts.

I guess

I'll reread Klick tonight and see if I can give you a more tangible case one way or another

[Dannflor]

Oh my god please do not eliminate klick rh

[Dannflor]

I do not have time to actually post until a few hours from now but could someone pls unvote

[Dannflor]

I’m on mobile I didn’t see it

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anyway be back in a few hours

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Did you not say drew made sense as scum, alisae

Why not vote there

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I mean you could help make it the leading wagon ?

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I didn’t because i had 20 seconds while my partner was in the bathroom to check my mafia games

Whatever

[Dannflor]

k I think Ari is Just Town

I think she’s tended towards being uncharitable this game, largely to myself, Klick, and Cakez. And while I think that’s usually a considered a general scum tell, I think it might be a town tell for Ari. Especially if I am to trust self-meta, she told me in Friends and Enemies that she tends to be a lot nicer as scum, and I think the way she has interpreted several of my posts indicates town who is super deep in their reads. Like, I kinda would expect scum!Ari to be just a little more charitable and reasonable while she was pushing me.


I also think there’s like this huge tone thing that imo tends to be very hard for scum to pull off convincingly. And that’s this like “if u shitpush me i will be merciless” thing that Ari has going on in 111. Like Ari is so fed up for so much of this game and I… really believe it. It bleeds through in so much of her posting and especially the recent “you’re not that town” to Klick in 378 and 381 feels like it comes from a town perspective. I just don’t think it’s natural for scum to talk to a townie like that. Specifically, I don’t think it’s super natural for Ari to like so heavily blame Klick for not being towny as scum. It makes a lot more sense coming from a town perspective and is consistent with her tone across the rest of the game.

******

Anyway, Aristeia. I think you are being uncharitable and you are tunneling the wrong slots.

“but maybe she rolled a really hype scum team that would suck” was a funny line that I threw into my post not because it was a genuine worry, but because I was trying to hypothesize which scenarios might cause Ausuka to come off as so relaxed and not needing to control the gamestate and that came to mind. It wasn’t like I genuine fear I have, it was just something that popped into my head and I thought it would be a funny addendum thought to add on to my post. You read it completely straight but hopefully that gives some insight.

All of those posts were me an hour before dinner stream of consciousnessing no filter all the vibes i felt about each slot. I was having fun just light solving and blasting through my vibe reads. I know it’s a lot of hedgy shit. Do you really think I go through and hedge on almost every single read as scum?


You also said somewhere I’ve been wanting to kill Klick for like 2 days. I guess technically I’ve had my vote on Klick but I pretty much had changed my mind on his slot when I said I’s rather Sir Cakez and someone else should get blown up in 248 and I haven’t even really been around since then. So I mean I guess technically I’ve been voting klick since the start of the game but it isn’t like I’ve been hard pushing for him to die today for a long time.

Idk if that’s helpful to you at all but I urge you to like reread or reset because I am town and I really really think Klick is town now

I’m also like increasingly very sure Drew is mafia and honestly yessiree is a good shout too

I’ll case these reads next

[Dannflor]

VOTE: rh9

He's like 90% town

This is one of the first posts that had me rethinking Klick and I think it goes with the whole “not really being super careful” thing I was talking about earlier.

I don’t know I think hard town reading your partner so early in this setup is a scary thing to do as scum because you are going to be self conscious about being seen as pockety and/or survivalist. The wording on this is like super strong too, it just feels bold and in a way scum would tend towards being more careful about

I think there’s a difference between “being careful” in the sense of not sharing thoughts that aren’t fully formed and “being careful” in the sense of caring about how you are perceived and what stances you take

Like try your best to look at his read progression on you

Look at how sloppy that would be as a scum progression

He goes from like null to null scum to hard town in almost no time at all

Scum don’t construct their read progressions like that tbh, they make a clear trajectory through the thread and post mark it so that people can see it makes sense and town read them for it

[Dannflor]

His RVS push explanation also makes sense to me

It makes a lot more sense to me as town forcing something for content than scum forcing something for an elimination

Like having skimmed a couple of Klick’s other games, I think he’s a reasonable enough player and his rvs joke push does not come off as super reasonable. His explanation for it also tracks with how his response to me and yessiree is to interrogate our thoughts instead of try to build or explain a case on Ari

[Dannflor]

I think his most recent posting is super towny too tone wise but infinity already covered that

[Dannflor]

VOTE: aristeia
her posting doesn't feel natural

You could be right, actually.
VOTE: Ari

I also kinda think RH9s posting is super pure too

This type of hop on just feels so unlikely if Ari is town and RH9 is scum

Like it just feels way too easy and I think scum would make themselves sick before making a post like this. It’s much more believable as a townie who is just figuring things out and sees something in thread they like

I don’t really know how to explain this further because it’s almost entirely a tone read but I find RH9s recent questions pretty pure too. I just feel like he’s trying to figure the game out and he isn’t concerned with looking town while doing it

It’s for this reason that RH9 and Klick is my most town read pair and I really really really really do not want them elimmed today

[Dannflor]

@Infinity

From my experience (or at least my memory of meta-ing him recently) Drew aims to seem relaxed as scum, and kind of doesn't really come off that way naturally when he's town

Plenty of things can affect how relaxed someone is/wants to present as, but I at least want to flag that appearing relaxed is entirely within Drew's scum range/how he would consider approaching a scum game

How relaxed was I in Boons Ahoy? I assume this is the meta you were referring to.......or Fire and Fire, was scumDrew relaxed there?

You literally are talking out of your ass and speaking factually incorrect. The irony being here is that I am not relaxed anymore lol.....Klick tried to use meta to say I was town in Boons Ahoy, ironically helping me and the scum team win. I find it hard to believe that they would use meta to make a scum case for me KNOWING that they were wrong about it before......or at least offering the caveat that they were were wrong once before(I think that is the key before, if I am wrong about someone once I will admit that I have been wrong when giving a read such as klick did).

Bottom line, and say all 'OMGUS'.......klick is telling the story that they want to tell, not the actual story that is legit.

VOTE: Klick/RH

I believe that is E-1 if I can count lol

Meanwhile, I just feel like Drew is becoming more and more obvious scum.

For me, the telling line here is “factually incorrect.”


If Drew was town here and found a factual inconsistency in Klick’s read, I think Drew would question him on it first or at some point consider a world where Klick is wrong!town. But here, it looks like Drew went into this interaction wanting Klick to be scum. I think this is further evidenced be his post where he accuses Klick of ascertaining Drew as scum despite him being frozen out of the game in 334. Drew sees this as an inconsistency and as such Klick must be scum for it.

Drew just seems so fixated on logical inconsistencies and factual correctness and experience says that mafia are way more likely to fall back on those arguments because it feels like the strongest tool they have. It is way easier to push a miselim because of inconsistencies in a townie’s read (because townies are inconsistent all the time) than it is because of a townie’s tone.

I don’t think Drew actually seems interested in determining Klick’s alignment. He seems more interested in burying Klick under his perceived inconsistencies

[Dannflor]

I find yessiree’s play here scummy too. I wouldn’t be surprised if both flipped red although it’s probably most likely that only one flips red.


148 doesn’t feel like a real town thought. I think the laughy face is just a little too self conscious and honestly i have a little theory that it betrays Drew and Yessiree as a scum/scum pair and yessiree is consciously or subconsciously trying to sew doubt about that idea


149 idk maybe just because it uses a lot of buzz words but I have a hard time seeing this as a real town thought either


I find the read on Ari in 304 a bit level 0 and a bit pockety for that reason

There is no consideration for why a scum player might play with a ton of aggression out of the gate (hint: a ton do!) and I think writing off Ari as town, who is clearly a skilled player, with this reasoning alone feels like a fake read

I am less confident on this than Drew but I think it’s a good flip too so I want this pair today like a lot

[Dannflor]

Anyway i really really really do not want to flip klick rh9 i think that’s town - town

I reslly really really really eeally want to flip drew - yessiree i think that’s town - scum at least but with good chances of lf being scum - scum even

Please and thank you

[Dannflor]

Dann is there a reason you think my reaction to a hype scum team would be 'relaxed' rather than 'excited' or something

No not really

Like I said it wasn’t something I was seriously entertaining

[Dannflor]

@Infinity

From my experience (or at least my memory of meta-ing him recently) Drew aims to seem relaxed as scum, and kind of doesn't really come off that way naturally when he's town

Plenty of things can affect how relaxed someone is/wants to present as, but I at least want to flag that appearing relaxed is entirely within Drew's scum range/how he would consider approaching a scum game

How relaxed was I in Boons Ahoy? I assume this is the meta you were referring to.......or Fire and Fire, was scumDrew relaxed there?

You literally are talking out of your ass and speaking factually incorrect. The irony being here is that I am not relaxed anymore lol.....Klick tried to use meta to say I was town in Boons Ahoy, ironically helping me and the scum team win. I find it hard to believe that they would use meta to make a scum case for me KNOWING that they were wrong about it before......or at least offering the caveat that they were were wrong once before(I think that is the key before, if I am wrong about someone once I will admit that I have been wrong when giving a read such as klick did).

Bottom line, and say all 'OMGUS'.......klick is telling the story that they want to tell, not the actual story that is legit.

VOTE: Klick/RH

I believe that is E-1 if I can count lol

Meanwhile, I just feel like Drew is becoming more and more obvious scum.

For me, the telling line here is “factually incorrect.”

If Drew was town here and found a factual inconsistency in Klick’s read, I think Drew would question him on it first or at some point consider a world where Klick is wrong!town. But here, it looks like Drew went into this interaction wanting Klick to be scum. I think this is further evidenced be his post where he accuses Klick of ascertaining Drew as scum despite him being frozen out of the game in 334. Drew sees this as an inconsistency and as such Klick must be scum for it.

Drew just seems so fixated on logical inconsistencies and factual correctness and experience says that mafia are way more likely to fall back on those arguments because it feels like the strongest tool they have. It is way easier to push a miselim because of inconsistencies in a townie’s read (because townies are inconsistent all the time) than it is because of a townie’s tone.

I don’t think Drew actually seems interested in determining Klick’s alignment. He seems more interested in burying Klick under his perceived inconsistencies

Idk if I agree with this tbh

I think if someone pushes you for reasons you think are bs/made up it's pretty normal to push back against that

I don’t necessarily have a problem with drew pushing klick by itself

But before even the meta case it felt like Drew had decided he wanted to scum read klick

And there’s just like not a single other aspect of Klick’s play or really the game at large that I feel drew is really engaging with

[Dannflor]

What was the slip Drew?

[Dannflor]

And when did it happen?

[Dannflor]

What was the slip Drew?

And when did it happen?

[Dannflor]

I think Drew is town now too lol

I think saying your PT partner scum slipped is like a really ballsy move if you are mafia yourself

And if it was theater I would expect a bit of a stronger case presented here

I still kinda think yessiree is a good flip though

[Dannflor]

Ironically I think Dann would be more likely scum between them and Cakez, notice how Dann has been a cheerleader for Klick of there case on me.

And it feels they aren't even reading my posts and what my case was on Klick.

Tbh i haven’t really

I don’t really care who is more right on your meta between you and Klick

I don’t think Klick’s argument or yours being right or wrong is alignment indicative

[Dannflor]

ideally I would like to no elim and agree to pair Ausuka with yessiree and flip them both

I kinda doubt enough people are gonna agree to that though

[Dannflor]

tbh im just saying pair ausuka and yessiree together because I’m theorizing if they were scum buddies ausuka would probably defend the townie in that pair (drew) and not engage with my yessiree read

so it’s mostly a pre flip I don’t know if I have anything truly alignment indicative from ausuka yet

[Dannflor]

Ydrasse i vaguely think is town for exactly one post where she had a bad reaction to infinity gut scum reading her

I wouldn’t be surprised to be wrong there

But I can also just imagine ausuka pushing a scum agenda here easier than I can ydrasse

[Dannflor]

It kind of bothered me that ausuka thinks it’s important whether drew or klick is more “correct” in their argument tbh because i don’t really think that matters at all but that might just be a me thing

[Dannflor]

ya to clarify I think Klick believes his argument has merit regardless of his alignment and I don’t think Drew lambasts Klick’s argument as factually incorrect unless he believes some part of it is actually incorrect regardless of his alignment

So I’m not sure determining who is more correct is actually helpful here in determining who is scum unless you are like particularly persuaded by one of their arguments

[Dannflor]

i think it ever ends up being revealed that we randed an S/S pair D1 the slots that most wanted to end this phase quickly and/or pushed for no-elim (other than Ari) should be scrutinized heavily

[Dannflor]

maybe they wouldn’t be that obvious

But I think ranking an s/s pair is like genuinely very unlucky for scum and it would impact their agenda this phase quite a bit

This is probably stating the obvious

[Dannflor]

Mostly I just really think she is town now

I guess there is an edge case where you and yessiree are scum and Ari felt like she had to play super aggro so that you two would survive the phase

[Dannflor]

I think Ari is town a vast majority of the time here, I’ve explained my read there

IF I am wrong, I think her play could fit a scum agenda in that she was motivated to conclude this phase pretty quickly because her teammates were in an S/S pair (mostly likely you and yessiree) that could easily wind up being the elim today

I really don’t think this is a likely scenario and even if an S/S pair did flip my first suspect probably wouldn’t be Ari

[Dannflor]

I did, I don’t really think so anymore because my read on you has shifted but it’s still a slight possibility in my mind

[Dannflor]

probably we should just kill yessiree and drew today

Ausuka I don’t even scum read you really

I wasn’t even saying you are scum for that I just personally didn’t like it because I can imagine that as something scum would focus on

I know town does too and I think it’s perfectly possible you are town

[Dannflor]

I probably shouldn’t have said what I said because all it actually accomplishes is irritating Ausuka which I think it would whether she was town or scum

[Dannflor]

VOTE: yessiree / drew

[Dannflor]

i guess dann did say in friends and enemies mason thread that everything i talk about is inconsequential and he hates my posts or something lol

maybe it's not that unrealistic

I’m sorry i was conf biasing you are a good poster

[Dannflor]

Bye drew

I’m sorry if you weren’t having a good time in this game

[Dannflor]

yay

drew you are cool

[Dannflor]

I’m fine dancing with anyone tbh

[Dannflor]

Alisae and someone is probably a good flip

[Dannflor]

yessiree wasn’t trying very hard to survive tbh

[Dannflor]

I agree Klick and cakez look good off interactions

[Dannflor]

Yeah I guess I just think Alisae is mafia and in that case Ausuka is probably not

[Dannflor]

ausuka do you wanna dance

[Dannflor]

I’m not so sure on ydrasse

I do think Ali is a very likely scum flip

[Dannflor]

I don’t scum read you does that make you feel better

[Dannflor]

Why don't we let Ali and Ydrasse pair and flip them

I think what Meuh did should take care of this.
As they're going to be killed now due to them being the last ones unpaired.

they won't be killed if ydrasse accepts ali's invite

[Dannflor]

i think the phase should be over

[Dannflor]

uh jingle you’re still using the old pairs for the vc

[Dannflor]

VOTE: alisae

[Dannflor]

It doesn’t look like Jingle is counting the votes from last page

[Dannflor]

thanks for modding jingle

[Dannflor]

Hm yeah I kinda just assumed we wouldn’t be able to repair with the same people haha