Open 888 | Welcome to Feryland! -- End!

[Aneninen]

Hi, everyone!

RVS is not a thing anymore? (I've returned after 5 years or so.)

VOTE: BLack

[Aneninen]

I've only checked the number of posts, not the amount of players. Plus, an Umbreon, which is scummy by nature. (Good, good, Fairy flavour. Fairy beats Dark.)

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

Cometbright.
Irrelevant fluff about past games. Generally "trying to be nice" style. Trying to pocket Black.

Lean scum

Black.
Similar to Comet. Popping in, not voting in RVS, then OMGUS-ing me. Not as "trying to be nice" as Comet.

Lean scum

- or bad town.

Python.
Forking shirt, I remember this type of player. Vote-hopping, contradicting themselves (e.g., #31 and #32, sorry, I forgot how to link a post), voting then obv-towning Gimli etc...

Lean town

- Years ago, these players got

lynched

eliminated early and usually flipped town.

Dragon.
What the actual fork was that #25? Voting Black and pointing out that it was E-2? Besides that, nothing special.

Null

- if Black flips scum, Dragon can be scum, too, but it's too early to speculate.

Timmer.
A newer player with a lot of questions. If he had a scumbuddy, he'd have been given answers in their chat. Therefore,

Town

Kittiesecret.
Another newer player, she could go either way.

Null

Gimli.

ARE YOU MASONS

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

Why are you interested in whether there are Masons in the game?
Also, leaning town on Black because of her interaction with Comet, but no reaction on Comet. Asking Dragon to talk about Python then withdrawing it. Somehow, everything from him looks scummy.

Scum

AfraydKnott.
Why were you reacted so to the Black wagon? Why weren't you reacting on anything else?

Lean Scum

[Aneninen]

That said,

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gimli

[Aneninen]

Dragon:
What's a "React YouTuber"?
Why do you think Gimli's town?

Generally said, I don't know it yet how much things have changed in the last 5 years. But I remember several players with a similar playstyle to Python's. These overactive Day1 poster, vote-hopping, self-contradicting players used to flip town early. But that time may have gone?

[Aneninen]

As to Gimli, it's a combination of things.
First of all, I think he's town because I recognize his attitude as similar to what he had when we were town together in past games, though I do not know how he plays as mafia so I can't know for sure.
I also felt posts 45-47 demonstrated a desire to solve the game, which is usually a town characteristic.
I know these are "obvious" reasons that could be faked, but I also have more subtle reasons to townread him which I could give you, except I feel if I did that it would give the impression I townread him more than I do, so I'll stick to these now.
Also this probably sounds scummy as heck to say this last paragraph but since when do I care about being scumread early?

Okay, I know what you mean in the first part.
Those posts you mentioned didn't give me the same feeling.
As for the end of your post, are you usually that cautious?
Also, thanks for the explanation.

aneninen, I guess we just won't see eye to eye on things. also re: my mason question, I was making a joke and I think black would catch that I'm not PR hunting with it

And I saw such just kidding questions coming from scum and hoping someone would hint something.

Timmer.
A newer player with a lot of questions. If he had a scumbuddy, he'd have been given answers in their chat. Therefore,

Town

I can kinda see it unless his partner is also new

That's a good point.

[Aneninen]

I didn't want to townlock DE but life is short

That's not fair, you know I have a weakness for people townlocking me. Now I

have

to townlock you back. How dare you!

How horrible that town-locking will be if one of them is scum... (Even more horrible if both!)

fwiw I decided to pocket Comet when I signed up to the game. This feels like a good thought progression though

How horrible that town-locking will be if one of them is scum... (Even more horrible if both!)

I don’t care if you lean scum on me. I play scummy all the time even when town. Which you’d be surprise to hear that I am. So lean away.
Oh and what’s scummy about not liking a vote? Please explain? In full so I can understand your reasoning, if there is any.

Why was that Black wagon strange? Who was opportunistic there?
Why should I lean away if you appear to be scummy?
But, most importantly... "Which you'd be surprise to hear that I am"... so you actually KNOW that I'm town???

How did you get so many reads so early on?
For me it’s far too early to actually get a read on anyone.

There were reasons for my reads. When there isn't a lot to catch-up, I try to read everything and draw some conclusions. I'm not saying that I'm right, most players seem to think that I'm mostly wrong now, but even early reads generate reactions. Which tell me much more about the players than fluffing around.

I didn't really get that vibe. I don't think anyone is ever in danger of getting faded in RVS

I saw games when those RVS wagons helped the scum rolefish... (Even on Page1!!!)

Ok, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet and it took way too long to figure out that VIP is Aneninen.

That VIP is new for me. I used to be things like "Anenninin", even "Adenine" (by RadiantCowbells), or, obviously "That pigeon guy".
I don't know the site meta either.
However, the most important question: why aren't you voting?

We're not getting any of that neutral "this is scum" energy from anyone posting here

Agree with this, no one in this group is in my limpool for today.

ARE YOU MASONS

No but on a completely different topic does anyone want to attend my bricklaying seminar?

How's it possible that you have no Em-pool? (Lim-pool? What's it call nowadays?) With this, you told the same thing as someone else'd told, but... literally 2 pages before!
Also, what sort of answer was that for that mason question?

Oof a lot of early morning players in here. Y'all have been busy reading bees this morning.
(makes note to set aside time in the morning routine for reading)

overall lots of good points, mental notes are being made... withholding judgement until I have a better feel for the game.

*always watching*

A perfect example for posting something without posting anything.

I dunno we will have to wait and see seems everyone is leaning town on Gimli, but is that what he wants us to think?
[...]
UNVOTE: Gimli
VOTE: Python

Now, that's an opportunistic vote.
Besides, why do you care what Gimli wants from us to think?

[Aneninen]

A newer player with a lot of questions. If he had a scumbuddy, he'd have been given answers in their chat. Therefore,

Actually I find that new scum loves to utilise exactly this, asking questions etc. is a great way to appear active in a thread without actually doing any proper reading/content.

Is it so nowadays?


Okay, short summary.

Comet - may or may not be scum, I can easily imagine a town mindset behind his posts, but no Em-pool?
Black - no change here
Python - my impression has only strenghtened, probably town
Dragon - don't know, somehow he sounds too cautious
Timmer - my townread has weakened, but still there
Kittiesecret - I really don't like her posts, lean scum at best
Gimli - some of you have told me I'm wrong, but I still won't call him town
AfraydKnott - mostly #77, but almost everything he's doing sounds scummy

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AfraydKnott

(Sorry if I used wrong pronouns for someone, correct me then.)

[Aneninen]

How's it possible that you have no Em-pool? (Lim-pool? What's it call nowadays?)

Group is in reference to the group that Python mentioned in #32, everyone who had posted up until then seemed pretty townie to me. No one in the group of Black, Dragon and Python (the people who had posted) is in my current lim-pool. I do have one though, which you should be able to gather from my readlist above.

Then I misinterpreted that part.

Also, what sort of answer was that for that mason question?

A witty remark designed to flummox buffons.

Just don't tell me you didn't see this coming...

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

[Aneninen]

You might want to reread me. Where do I say you are town? I say I am. I have no clue what you are. Other than weak voting

This.
"I play scummy all the time even when town. Which you’d be surprise to hear that I am. So lean away."
It may be only me, but it sounds as if you knew my alignment.

My first vote was reactionary and to be frank part of my RVS as all of you had had mostly a real day length to get going on this. My second vote as I felt Tmmer was being rather incorrect on their read. I then removed my vote when the wagon stared to role.

Wait-oh. You voted Timmer because of being incorrect? You consider my reads incorrect, aren't you? And you're not voting either for me or for Timmer? Actually, you're not voting at all. Besides, if thinking that having incorrect reads were scummy, about 3 players would be voting for me right now.
What you're saying doesn't add up.

I don’t accept your explaination on your read list. It’s rather weak. Especially when if you really dont have an idea why post it.

I do have idea why I'm posting it. For example, reactions to a list can be indicative.

Possibly try not br be so selective in the reads of those you vote for. You might have noticed my post about being scummy regardless of my alignment.

How exactly should I have noticed that?

[Aneninen]

I think I like VIP's 112. It made me cackle and I like that he's asking questions and getting involved

I don't know why it was funnier than my other posts nearby.
Actually I'm pretty much doing the same as scum. And this goes for everyone.

I wanted to make a readslist like the cool kids but I don't have any scumreads yet so it looks weird

Comet

Gimli
Python
VIP
DE70

Timmer
Afrayed
Kittie

Ooooooooooooor, you're trying to be nice to everyone, which is scummy.
(Irrelevant fact: that "oooooor" sounds much better in my native language and when one of my daughters say that. Try to imagine it. Oh. Never mind.)

I don't think pressure voting Knott is giving us anything on them

VOTE: Black do something interesting

I think the opposite.
That's not a bad vote, though.

Am I the only one who thinks Dragon's #125 and #127 added very little relevant content to the game? (Please, please, someone tell me how to make a link out of a post number! I simply can't remember that!) I guess I'll have hard time reading him.

[Aneninen]

129 Like this? Oh, FINALLY! Thanks!
Have you got experience with Knott? Or is it a kind of Miss Marple tell?
[A concept I used long ago. If a newer or unknown player plays in a way as another player I know do, they often have the same alignment. This works only on relatively new players, though. Actually this is exactly why I think you're town... but for me, right now, everyone's new.]

Dragon, 130 - Care to explain this for someone who doesn't know your/their meta?

Gimli, 132 - You're okay with the Comet wagon, yet you're not voting for her. (Him? Them?) How does this add up?

Dragon, 134 - I think you misunderstood me. I strongly think that lock-towning on Day1 is terrible. If someone manages to get into a lock-pair (or even worse, a block) as scum, we'll have hard times later. I'm not saying all these four players (Gimli, you, Comet, Black) are scum. But I strongly think at least one scum is there in these two pairs. Maybe two. Also, it's a possibility that a scum-pair lock-towns each other and when one of them flips scum, people will ignore the possibility that the other one's scum too, because it would be soooo stupid if scums buddied each other...

[Aneninen]

Oh, you've already started to explain your Comet read...

By the way, you think Comet's scum. Yet you replied to Black that you knew the struggle (of not finding scumreads). Can you explain this?

(Posts are coming meanwhile. But I'll react those later.)

[Aneninen]

Sure:
I meant I know the struggle in general, not from this game specifically.
Though even right now as I type this I realize i only have one scumread, which is much too little.

Okay, that makes sense. Anyway, I can lend you some scumreads if you need some ^_^

Also, those lock-towns are mostly jokes then?

[Aneninen]

I didn't like Kittie's 157.
I can only see two excuses for not being involved with real reads. (1) It's too early and (2) You're a new player.
Also, I can't see Gimli trying to make us believe that he's town.
Plus, "A perfect example for posting something without posting anything." was not a compliment from me. That's something I usually find scummy.
And the Cheryl Blossom on the top of the pie is the structure of the post. Quoting 98, 40, 99, 40 (again) might have had a logic... but then 112 (from me) and finally 53 only to "Hi" back to Gimli? How does this add up?
Can anyone tell me whether Kittie's playing in this way all the time?

Kittie I think you mentioned your partner plays here. Are you getting any coaching from them at all?

And where was that mentioned? In the Mafia PT?

Black locktown was a joke, I've had no strong opinions on her so far, mostly just liking her vibe so she gets to at number 3 below the two people I have stronger reasons for townreading.

Okay. What vibes can you see there?

...I only rely on my gut for reads and B: that me using logic for my reads is even scummy to begin with.

Huh?

Just to clarify since I think it's been causing some confusion, I'm not actually town-locking Dragon or Black (sorry!) though they are good eggs who I hope will be in this game for at least a few days cause it's fun vibing with them. I also know them better than other people in this game which is why neither are in my day 1 limpool as I feel if they are scum I'll have an easier time reading/picking up on it than I would with the rest of you.

Okay, got it.

What if there was major mod error and everyone is town

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

[Aneninen]

Afrayed in 117 he is just very absorbed about how he is being perceived in this game and working hard to define himself for us/to suggest that we see him as he wants us to see him, which I don't love.

Good observation.
But I saw him answering a couple of things (haven't read yet), so let's see that first.

but also... comet seems to be overly helpful with all their reads... VIP also seems to be concerned with being read as town. both have lots to say with out saying much just lots of round and round about the same players.

reading between the lines everyone seems sus...

but its just too early

About the same players? If you mean the same players who're in this very game, you're right.
And I really, really don't like that you end everything saying that it's "too early". It sounds like you're trying to find excuses for your reads.


Gimli, 177 - Wellshirt, you're not the only one without scumreads here. You put four players on your "idk" list, yet you're voting for Kittie, whom you labeled "town?". Why?

[Aneninen]

Also I think you should try to look for more nuances in general. If you noticed,

the consensus right now about who is towny and who is scummy is very different from your reads

. While that in no way makes you scum or a bad player, I think the reason for that is that you don't try to figure out the hidden cues, mindsets and motivations of posts but just take them very literally - basically ignoring nuances.

Sorry if this sounds like harsh criticism, I'm just trying to teach.

Yes, the underlined part disturbs me, too.
Especially because most players are townreading me in spite of my reads.
I know it's sheer speculation and it's "too early" for saying things like this now*, but what if the scum are among those who're townreading me right now?
*There it goes, Kittie, a "too early" from me.

Also, don't worry, your posts are very far from "harsh". I remember games where players had so much anger and passion inside that words like these would have sound as peacemaking...

Have you got experience with Knott? Or is it a kind of Miss Marple tell?

you have, when I was Smudger

Yes, I've checked it now and you indeed mentioned this earlier. But pardon me, I don't remember you. It was so long ago, I can only remember a couple of names.
Can you refresh my memory with a link?

I've read all the other things you wrote, but right now, this is the most important.

[Aneninen]

Can you remember the name of the game? Or the mod? Or playerlist? Whatever? If so, I may have some chance to find it.

[Aneninen]

Thanks!
I have some remote memories and eeew. A bad-town Aneninen and a terrible-scum Aneninen.

Later I'll check your posts but now I need to go.

[Aneninen]

having carried out a search - we have played in quiet a few games together

Open 627 and Open 724
Project ELO
The Road to Rome

viewtopic.php?t=65188&hilit=smudger+Aneninen
viewtopic.php?t=65370&hilit=smudger+Aneninen
viewtopic.php?t=65184&hilit=smudger+Aneninen&start=25 This is the scum day chat - you are scum and NK me

Checked.
In Mexican Standoff, your posting style was entirely different. But you replaced out.
In the Newbie, it was somewhat similar to this game, but you were more interrogative and less defensive. However, in that game I was scum so it may be only in my mind.
Most importantly, your gameplay may have changed a lot since then.

That doesn't convince me that you're town, but okay, let's assume for a short while that I'm wrong about you.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: KittieSecret
See my reasons in 193

[Aneninen]

I don't know who to vote. I never scumread kittie, just tried to give her a warm welcome via naked voting and seeing what happened afterwards.
guess we're all not really into this game aorn, it's early, it's fine, I'll move my vote when I think I found something good

Kittie is a good place for your vote in my opinion... but I find her scummy, and you don't.

Are people really metaing 7 year old games?

Since I was away for more than 5 years, what other options we have?

Python, 205. Oh. I see. To tell the truth, I didn't remember at all that such threads even existed.

Your next post: Not having reads is okay. But I strongly think she's overusing the "too early to have reads" phrase as an excuse for not having reads.

[Aneninen]

VIP what is your mafia experience like? You said you haven't played in 5 years but how experienced were you before you took a break?

I was erratic as shirt.
I had brilliant and horrible games, too.
Some of the most remarkable games I can remember: when I convinced the whole town that a player Nightkilled himself (I was SK), when I successfully Nightkilled the only conf-towm player (as TOWN Vig), when I intentionally made the most hostile ELo (LyLo) for myself, Nightkilling everyone else who was scumread by the townies and whined about it until I won (as scum), when I so blatantly overdid the "look how town I am" that I posted a terrible fake-claim and got hammered in one single page (as scum)...
With Aneninen in the game, everything is possible.

Also, Knott, I have some bad news for you. E.B.O.N.Y. was fully reconstructed 2 years ago. Even more secrets, even more meta and the highest level is above 80 now... ^_^

[Aneninen]

Also, probably I'll have a hectic weekend so expect less activity from me. Not really V/LA, I'll try to drop by.

[Aneninen]

Kittie.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to answer everything you posted thoroughly (will do so if needed), but I'm telling you what my problem is. I can see too easily a scum mindest behind your posts. Something like "Ugh, I drew scum. What to do now? Maybe I could have a nice style and try hard to look town and I could get away with that."
I may be wrong, especially if I think about my very first game here. (No surprise that I was terrible. I raged out early and accused the more experienced players that they simply wanted to remove the newbies because they drew scum - while the actual scum had to do nothing but grab some chips and popcorn.)
But you're still my top scumread right now.

You may be right that my reasons are shallow, but in this game phase it's rare that there are "deep" reasons. Maybe it matches your "too early" mindset, but a "too early" mindset doesn't make the game moving.

Comet, 215 - if someone defends me for no reason is an Auto-FoS for me, but whatever.

Dragon, 217 and maybe everyone - you're the 3rd or 4th players with too-few-to-no scumreads. Is it only my mindset that has a different threshold on the concept "summy"?

Nevertheless, not much happened, as far as I can see.

[Aneninen]

Scumhunting wise though I don't think anyone's given off a strong "This dude scum fr fr" vibe yet
Dragon/Gimli/Kittie/Python in the townpool
Comet/VIP get a pass
Black's good enough at scum that we're not catching her d1
Knott's the hard to read aggro type player that can get away with a lot as scum but that's not really scum indicative
Tim isn't really giving off townvibes but that could be due to my eyes glazing over when I see wallposts with no quotes

This feels like my reads list put into words
Regarding VIP, I'm more wary here after he talked about his experience level. I was putting him in the same category as Kittie because I thought they were both fairly new players with the off the wall reads, but I don't think I'm willing to give VIP the same pass as Kittie anymore

Erm... Kittie clearly told us that she was new. I clearly told you that I'd back after 5 years. Knott and I even talked out our common meta. In what universe does it add up to put Kittie and me on the same experience level?
(Kittie, you may find me offensive, but this was no offense. It's more than enough to check the games Knott linked to see how "genius" I in this game can be.)

Tim's response to pressure was ok enough to move on for now
VOTE: VIP

Is Chainsaw Defense still a thing?

VOTE: VIP

Yeah, after putting me on the "can pass", saying that Black was good enough as scum not to get caught on Day1, this deserves a thorough answer from me. Because of its lenght, it's best to format it like this:

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

[Aneninen]

Can anyone tell me whether Kittie's playing in this way all the time?

Huh? That's her first game.

Gimli, 177 - Wellshirt, you're not the only one without scumreads here

Explain?
195 - VIP, I am not sure why but I can't decipher this post. Could you please explain to me what you mean here?
Conclusion (for Pages 7-8):
VIP, Knott and Gimli pretty towny
Timmer has slight towniness
Python is towny

(1) Yeah, my bad.
(2) At that point there were quite a lot of players who didn't have enough scumreads (or who had no scumreads at all.)

Yes, the underlined part disturbs me, too.
Especially because most players are townreading me in spite of my reads.
I know it's sheer speculation and it's "too early" for saying things like this now*, but what if the scum are among those who're townreading me right now?
*There it goes, Kittie, a "too early" from me.

I'm not sure what part you missed. But I'll rephrase it for you.
Firstly. Not only was it disturbing that I had too many scumreads (which alone means that I misread some players). The fact that most players were townreading me meanwhile gave me a vibe that there were scum among those who were townreading me, because of a logic like "oh, let's give Aneninen a pass and let him live. After all, everyone thinks he's reading the game in the wrong way, so even if he finds scum, noone will follow him."

This I don't understand because you should know that I do this as town and there's literally no reason to think it's scummy of me - I don't think I've ever done that as scum, ever.

I know you do it as town, but why does that make a play I would normally attribute to scum/scum-aligned no longer scummy? It's not a full one-on-one comparison but lets say someone has a habit of fake-claiming and they do this as town too - if it later came to light that they fakeclaimed in a game then you'd still be justified seeing it as scummy, no? I've only seen one scumgame of you (and it was a late-game replacement, if I remember right?) so that's not really enough of a sample-size for me to know it's something you wouldn't do as scum.

???
I don't really like when a player uses the "you know my townplay so you have to know that I'm town now". That's NAI at best. Or at least, I used to know very few player who had big differences between their town and scumplay. Other factors, such as game size, Setup type, even drowing a PR or the time they have to play make much more significant differences.

A bit off, but fake-claiming as town, apart from some special situations, was anti-town years ago. I guess it's still so now.

Hmmm... this is a weirdly passive day 1. There's been some stuff slung about but nothing that's really stuck or held for long, I'm kinda tempted for everyone to share their current elimination pools (list of people you'd be okay with executing today) and seeing if we can establish some common block here just so we can prompt some more pointed poking here and narrow the focus further. Thoughts?

I too think it's weridly passive.
Your idea's valid, but what if it's passive because neither of the scum is remotely in danger now? I know it's speculative, but it's a possibility.

I'm kinda zoned out of this game and don't remember anything anymore sorry
I think this is a gamestate in which town loses the majority of the time btw

This gave me bad vibes.
Especially because the passivity, as far as I can remember, started when the votes and suspections were moved away from Gimli.


Post-edit.

Are you just wagoning me?
Can you wait until I read the game?

[Aneninen]

yes let me think about this
I have you and DE as townies, let's hope I'm right.
7 players to parse through, clear 3 for the win
(checks the playerlist)
Im pretty sure I'm just gonna be null on everyone but I'm doing ISOs now I guess.

Erm... it may be only me, but that literally doesn't add up.
You have 2 townreads. 7 players to parse through, clear 3 for the win. 2+7=9, so you have to parse through... yourself, too? 2 are clear, 3 to clear, so you have to clear yourself, too?

I decided I like Black this game

Why exactly?

Also,

Tim's response to pressure was ok enough to move on for now
VOTE: VIP

Is Chainsaw Defense still a thing?

Can I get an answer for this?

DragonEater, 251. There are two things I don't like. Firstly, you post a wall, with this:

I feel so frustrated because I know town!Comet pretty well and I know Comet knows me pretty well so I just don't get how Comet could ever reach the first conclusion instead of the second one.

Yet you gave him a townread.
Then you ask him to vote for Kittie.

Then, in 257 you have a limpool of Kittie, Timmer and me. - I'll respond to the post a bit later, don't worry. But,

VOTE: VIP

I kinda vibe with afrayed knott
this game is pretty hard

Why is it hard? Knott is townie as heck.

For me, it was clear that Gimli meant he'd agreed with Knott that the game was hard.
Your vote on me looked clearly opportunistic, like "Hey, here's a wagon, let's fabricate some reasons quickly to move there".

Post-edit.

Wait, WHAT? I've been Eliminated?

[Aneninen]

No, it's just Python trolling. He'd been voting for me before the "hammer".

[Aneninen]

So, going on.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I think VIP sounds kinda crazy for thinking that the ordering of the posts kittie quoted in 157 is suspicious in any way, and makes me think that maybe VIP hasn't even read that post because the thought process there does explain the ordering of those posts. And shading a post (and btw VIP put some serious effort into shading 157) without reading it is, well...

So, technically it's scummy if I don't put a wall-quote in my post when the quote would be way too long in itself? What the actual fork! But then, I'm double-scummy since I did the same with your post, too...

Back in the old days this used to be

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

VOTE: VIP
I guess I can kill that which I don't understand

How about sending an Investigate PR on that which you don't understand? (If there's any.)
Call me a fossil, but this is how it should work.

Your idea's valid, but what if it's passive because neither of the scum is remotely in danger now? I know it's speculative, but it's a possibility.

Not impossible - but either way a passive town is a dead town. My worry right now is that the game keeps chugging along all slow and then we just do a compromise last minute execute at the end of the day and get very little info from it as a result. If we discuss out the executions then if we execute scum, great - and if we execute a townie then we'll have some meat (posts and discussion) to work with for the vote-count analysis afterwards if that makes sense.

I'm not sure whether this is alignment indicative (scum can post this, too, to get town-cred), but I like this attitude.

Was that a hammer? I literally just wrote a post saying we need proper discussion so we have valuable VCA

It's only gut, but this gave me exactly the "here's an opportunity to get some town-cred" vibe I was talking about right above.

I think it was yeah. He didn't even get the chance to claim lol
If VIP flips town I think DE70 and Python have the worst votes on the wagon

See above, Dragon's vote was clearly opportunistic.

UNVOTE: VIP

what

I just don't get this.
This made no sense regardless of knowing or not knowing that Python had been trolling.

okay I'll play along

And this sounded weird, after Python admitted the trolling.

I think Black was pretty townie during that hammer test

Why?
Also, my pronoun mistake was noted, sorry about it.

VIP gets -town points for prioritizing double checking the votes instead of writing down final thoughts

Why?
Also, I can type damn fast. I work as a content writer.

[Aneninen]

Really sorry, and I know it's bad timing but I need to be off for a while.

Later I'll try to reconsider my reads, because there are at least 4 players I find scummy, which I know is BS (buttoned shirt).

[Aneninen]

Firsly, even if I read that part again, Gimli's unvote and his nearby posts still make zero sense for me. E.g.

I have an excuse but its horrible
I checked the votecount and didn't see VIP so I thought it was a brand new wagon

Still doesn't explain the unvote, nor his reactions to Pythons "trollhammer". If he thought Aneninen and VIP had been different wagons, why he assumed that there had been a hammer?

In itself, telling "how horrible I am" is NAI. Can come from a townie, but can be easily faked by a scum. However, I didn't like the posts he had BEFORE the "trollhammer", either, which makes me think he can be scum.

Black's reaction gave me townvibes, but, again, it was something that could be easily faked by a scum. Her vote on me may have been a Chainsaw, but that's only speculation now.

What happened in these last 2 pages that you went from Python scum to Gimli scum?

Whom did you ask here?

Python's hammer is really fucking weird wtf.

Wait
This is not a hammer it's a meme
lol.

UNVOTE:
Temporarily because I don't want more "memes" happening.

This 3 together sounds "fabricated" in my mind. I can't put my finger on it why, though.

First of all, her*.
Second of all, I explained that I had wrongly assumed Comet had a good meta on me, but as I was writing the post I realized that how she's treating me this game does in fact align with how town!her treated me in previous games, so occam's razor would dictate that she simply doesn't know me as well as I thought she does, and that she specifically scumreads the kind of action I did.

Okay, got it.

I said it's scummy not to react the way you reacted to kittie, because I got the impression you were trying to shade her without even reading her post.

I did read Kittie's post, just didn't quote it. But I put the link there, for reference.

Please use the correct pronouns for people, it's driving me insane.

I try to pay attention, but it's hard for me. 5 years ago it wasn't a big deal if you made a mistake. However, Comet's pronoun is not shown under her name.

I was speculating to myself that the lack of any major scummy content would indicate two experienced players being the scumteam (or one experienced scum player who is heavily coaching the other) but I don't want to underestimate a newer player.

Could be so, I was speculating about something similar in my mind before, but that doesn't really narrow anything down right now.

Probably at least one of VIP/Tim/Knott

I'm down for Tim I guess
I feel Knott is like obvious LHF townie, and I feel limming him would be like the worst compromise lim to ever happen in the history of compromise lims.
Another option is do a sort of hero lim (like hero vig)? And then basically go for Black for the lolz and see what happens once she gets to E-1. I dunno if it's a good idea, but I don't think I have any good idea tbh.

Python you wanted to generate content by jumping on wagons, didn't you? Let's do this.
VOTE: black
NOTE: DO NOT HAMMER BLACK OR YOU WILL BE POLICY LIMMED

So... you asked Python who they think the scum were. Python gave 3 names. You picked one of them - not even me who's closest to Elimination now -, then you launched a new wagon to E-1 it. The actual fork?

VIP I'm not really vibeing with you... BUT that being said I'm living for all the good place references, which makes me wanna like you, cuz that show is amaze... but at the same time I feel like your sus as all heck. maybe that's because I've become a target of yours. I dunno *shrug*

Hmm... that's a feeling that comes naturally and leads to OMGUS reads and votes. At this time I have some doubts that Kittie's scum...

[Aneninen]

Please take note of other players' pronouns on their mini profiles on the left side of each post, and use them. Repeated misgendering is frowned upon at MS, so no repeats is a good thing!

<--- Pronouns are visible here if specified.

Vote count coming up shortly!

Got the warning, sorry everyone!
Again, I try to pay attention, but it's hard for me. It wasn't a big deal to use the wrong pronoun 5 years ago.

[Aneninen]

Kittie and Black looks a bit more town than before.
DragonEater is much scummier, the posts I mentioned above, and the opportunistic vote on me before.
Knott - I don't know, let's see what comes next.
Timmer produced nothing new, still townish.
Comet may be town.
Python is still town, I can easily see a town mindset behind that "trollhammer", too. (Why is it called "meme"?)
Gimli is scummy, regardless of that NAI part about the hammer.

So, it's something like
[town]
Python
Comet
Timmer
Knott
Black
Kittie
Gimli
Dragon
[scum]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DragonEater

[Aneninen]

Python you wanted to generate content by jumping on wagons, didn't you? Let's do this.
VOTE: black
NOTE: DO NOT HAMMER BLACK OR YOU WILL BE POLICY LIMMED

So... you asked Python who they think the scum were. Python gave 3 names. You picked one of them - not even me who's closest to Elimination now -, then you launched a new wagon to E-1 it. The actual fork?

DE's the only person voting Black, she's not at E-1

Rephrase then: Yes, launched by Dragon but he also told that he wanted to see what happened once it got to E-1.

[Aneninen]

IN what universe that self-vote makes sense?
Why are you technically asking others but Python to vote for you so that you can tell them a secret?

[Aneninen]

IN what universe that self-vote makes sense?
Why are you technically asking others but Python to vote for you so that you can tell them a secret?

In what universe does voting Black make sense?

I am not asking anyone to vote me. But if anyone does, I'll tell Python a secret.

It's not the vote itself. It's the CONTEXT of the vote.
That "I'Ll tell Python a secret" is a joke, isn't it?

[Aneninen]

Dragon, let me try to tel you once more what my problem is.

Probably at least one of VIP/Tim/Knott

I'm down for Tim I guess

I feel Knott is like obvious LHF townie, and I feel limming him would be like the worst compromise lim to ever happen in the history of compromise lims.

Another option is do a sort of hero lim (like hero vig)? And then basically go for Black for the lolz and see what happens once she gets to E-1. I dunno if it's a good idea, but I don't think I have any good idea tbh.

(1) You ask Python about their scumlist. They give 3 names.
(2) You name one of them.
(3) Then you start a new wagon.
For me, it looks like a scum trying to launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving. Pushing me further or returning to Timmer would have made more sense.

Gimli voted in his PoE and it felt more natural. DE70 townread VIP and was pushing Kittie but then moved to VIP anyway. Jumping on the mobile wagon felt opportunistic

That.

It's come up twice now - what's the context/meaning of something being a hero lim (hero vig?) - is this a new lingo term I'm out of the times with?

Yes, what's that? I thought it was only me who didn't know the "Hero Lim" expression.

Was trying to bait some reactions with everything I did (including the vote on you). This clearly didn't do anything.

...........................

This note feels weird. I'm at e-4...

I was thinking people would jump on the wagon but I forgot this is a newbie game and not a game on the theme queue where people randomly just jump on wagons for no reason.

And launching a wagon so that people jump on it randomly without any reason is pro-town, because ...............?

It's when you lim/shoot a widely townread person and it's called that because everyone who makes a hero shot is a hero and will be treated as such by the rest of the community

Thanks for the explanation.
It doesn't make Dragon's post (see above) better.

[Aneninen]

Tomorrow, okay?
It's 22:30 here, I really need to sleep now.

[Aneninen]

Dragon, let me try to tel you once more what my problem is.

VIP, let me tell you what's my problem.

(1) You ask Python about their scumlist. They give 3 names.
(2) You name one of them.
(3) Then you start a new wagon.
For me, it looks like a scum trying to launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving. Pushing me further or returning to Timmer would have made more sense.

(1) You describe what I did.
(2) You ignore context.
(3) You say this looks like scum trying to launch a new wagon, without actually explaining why this looks that way.
(4) You ignore the fact that scum don't "try to launch wagons because the current ones are not moving".
For me, it looks like a player who doesn't really understand what scum are trying to do and therefore finds the wrong things to be "scummy".

(1) I'm glad that at least we can agree in this point.
(2) I even explained that the context was my problem.
(3) I strongly think you've been trying to build wagons, drive them to E-1 and pull out claims from townies. It was a widely known tactic scum did for rolefishing the town. And I don't think it's not happening anymore - I remember how well it could work.
(4) I think quite the opposite.

But okay.
EVERYONE: If I'm wrong in (3) and (4) because the game's not working so anymore, tell me.

Like there's zero critical thinking involved. Can you actually explain me why you think:
(a) That scum!me would rather "launch a launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving" over just let them not move?
(b) That scum!me, but not town!me, would prefer to ignore the options given by Python?
(c) That any of this makes any sense?

(a) Why would it be scummier to let wagons not moving (assuming they're on townies) than launching a new one and hoping it gains momentum?
(b) Among their options there were players scumread by you, weren't there?
But again, my question is right above.

And I was trying to spice things up so people have to DO something. If there's a E-2 wagon or even E-1 wagon, people have to react to it in some way. Or they can deliberately not react, but this is in itself a type of reaction. Anyway, the best games I've played were games in which a lot of different people got run up to E-2/E-1 before town settled on the final lim for the day. Games where there's just one person slowly accumulating votes, or all types of dispersed votes, tend to end in a mislim that doesn't lead to any improvement in the following days.

Is it really working that way nowadays? :-O

Still, there's one thing that disturbs me.
Python's "trollhammer" gave a lot of momentum to this game. Why do you think it was a good timing to do as you described? Especially since there are still players who's given zero reaction on my wagon or the "trollhammer". (Why is it called "meme" anyway?)

Also I'm in the same timezone apparently, cool.

Cool indeed. There were few players from Europe and I don't think it's changed a lot.

[Aneninen]

Based on what I am reading now my thoughts haven’t changed much, with one exception. I like DE’s post at 251, 257 and 356. I continued to feel a town vibe on VIP until I read 210. He states in that post, no actually drips with self gratification

Nightkilling everyone else who was scumread by the townies and whined about it until I won (as scum),when I so blatantly overdid the "look how town I am"

Made me rethink tbf, my thought was, ok do we trust him?

I don't even trust myself ^_^

Joke aside, I was asked to talk about my experience, so I talked about some of my best and worst gameplays. By the way, I don't think I was self-gratificating, my original post was this:

I was erratic as shirt.
I had brilliant and horrible games, too.
Some of the most remarkable games I can remember: when I convinced the whole town that a player Nightkilled himself (I was SK), when I successfully Nightkilled the only conf-towm player (as TOWN Vig), when I intentionally made the most hostile ELo (LyLo) for myself, Nightkilling everyone else who was scumread by the townies and whined about it until I won (as scum), when I so blatantly overdid the "look how town I am" that I posted a terrible fake-claim and got hammered in one single page (as scum)...
With Aneninen in the game, everything is possible.

I guess you simply ended my quote at a wrong point, which is pretty much NAI, on the other hand.

I read the whole fake hammer section of the weekend posts and how the attention turn to Gimli after his reaction. My thought immediately on reading his post was that was false and maybe a little too over reactive.

And what do you think about his unvote?

Ok, but this is only my second game back, and like you after a 5 year break or so, So I can’t see my style changing that much, Still trying to find a rhythm.
So do you find that your style has changed after your break?

I don't know whether my style has changed. The GAME, as I can see, has changed a lot. Which means, my gameplay is most probably outdated.
I have no idea about your gameplay change, either. In 203, I summarized my thoughts:

In Mexican Standoff, your posting style was entirely different. But you replaced out.
In the Newbie, it was somewhat similar to this game, but you were more interrogative and less defensive. However, in that game I was scum so it may be only in my mind.

Here I can see a gameplay different to those. But, regardless of any changes in your style, that's, in itself, NAI. In both of those games you were town. In the one you didn't replace out, I was scum, and I remember interpreting players differently depending on my alignment.

Limpool-wise... right now I've got Timmer, Kittie and Knott. I can potentially be okay with a VIP vote? My hesitation is because his playstyle seems to be based on 2014 days and rather than it being scummy it might just be... how forum mafia was played back then.

Python, Black, Dragon, Gimli makes 4.

What did I do to fall off your list… between these two posts. I haven’t posted in all until now. Or are you completing someone else’s list?

Hmmmm... I didn't notice that but interesting.

[Aneninen]

Oh. New post.

The more I read the more the only clear choice for me is one of Kittie, Timmer or Comet. Where to place my vote becomes an issue for me and it seemed to be an issue for VIP for sometime also. I'm still in two minds on this. he does talk a good talk, like a few others here. in fact Comet Dragon and VIP seem to very good at long posts extolling how the game should be played or how scum or town does this or that. I have read them and find some of the posts very interesting. In Dragons posts I noted the following comment to myself "lots of content and some questions but I don't see them pushing anyone or being helpful". And then I still get a good vibe. VIP has been doing the same thing but he has changed in his content as the game has progressed, he seems to be under pressure, why? Not sure. But then is he trying to swing us in his towniness or is it all a bluff and part of his self proclaimed brilliance at faking town when scum. So based on that:

VOTE: VIP

Just two things.
(1) Am I representing you right if I represent your "clear choice" pool Kittie, Timmer or Comet as a Lim-pool?
(2) Are you aware of the fact that you misquoted me by mistake and there were just as much terrible gameplay examples in my original post (See my previous post about it).

[Aneninen]

*"Am I representing you right if I interpret your..."
Sorry, I was paying attention to something else meanwhile

[Aneninen]

Dragon, I'll have an answer for your spoiler if you're interested in at all, but that will take some time, and I'm unsure whether it's going to happen today.
However,

If you want you can also call it a policy lim - do you really want town!VIP in F5? I don't. But again this probably has >rand chance to flip scum, and considering the current gamestate I'd take that over a completely random person.

If I'm merely a policy lim, I spend the time I'd spend with that answer with something more useful.

[Aneninen]

Catching up sooner or later. I try to do it before evening, but I have a busy day.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

For Dragon:

Spoiler:

First, here's a response/refutation to what VIP says about me (you don't actually have to read any of this except for point 2):

(1) You ask Python about their scumlist. They give 3 names.
(2) You name one of them.
(3) Then you start a new wagon.
For me, it looks like a scum trying to launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving. Pushing me further or returning to Timmer would have made more sense.

(1) You describe what I did.
(2) You ignore context.
(3) You say this looks like scum trying to launch a new wagon, without actually explaining why this looks that way.
(4) You ignore the fact that scum don't "try to launch wagons because the current ones are not moving".
For me, it looks like a player who doesn't really understand what scum are trying to do and therefore finds the wrong things to be "scummy".

(1) I'm glad that at least we can agree in this point.
(2) I even explained that the context was my problem.
(3) I strongly think you've been trying to build wagons, drive them to E-1 and pull out claims from townies. It was a widely known tactic scum did for rolefishing the town. And I don't think it's not happening anymore - I remember how well it could work.
(4) I think quite the opposite.

(1) K.
(2) But you clearly have no idea of what I was saying in that context. Your case on me is trying to represent me as seriously pushing Black because I feel unhappy that the currently existing wagons aren't moving (these aren't my words, they are yours). However if you actually read 340 and 341, you would probably notice me saying things like "generate content" and "let's see what happens" and "DON'T HAMMER BLACK". It's freaking obvious that this wasn't a serious push, but you choose to paint it as me trying to start an actual wagon "because I am not happy with unmoving wagons" as scum (and btw, do you think town would be happy with the game not moving? I don't fucking get his).
(3) That's really funny because that's something I got accused of doing in my first game here (when I was town), and also something I don't think I ever saw scum do. So yeah I think it's an outdated scumtell.
(4) Well clearly Comet, Gimli and I all disagree with you.

But okay.
EVERYONE: If I'm wrong in (3) and (4) because the game's not working so anymore, tell me.

I answered this above, but just to make it clear: you are wrong.

Like there's zero critical thinking involved. Can you actually explain me why you think:
(a) That scum!me would rather "launch a launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving" over just let them not move?
(b) That scum!me, but not town!me, would prefer to ignore the options given by Python?
(c) That any of this makes any sense?

(a) Why would it be scummier to let wagons not moving (assuming they're on townies) than launching a new one and hoping it gains momentum?
(b) Among their options there were players scumread by you, weren't there?
But again, my question is right above.

(a) Because scum don't usually care which townies are eliminated and when wagons aren't moving then the town sinks in apathy and compromise lims on a townie (unless they get lucky, but as you said you are assuming the wagons are on townies)
(b) How does this answer my question? And I guess yes but not really.

And I was trying to spice things up so people have to DO something. If there's a E-2 wagon or even E-1 wagon, people have to react to it in some way. Or they can deliberately not react, but this is in itself a type of reaction. Anyway, the best games I've played were games in which a lot of different people got run up to E-2/E-1 before town settled on the final lim for the day. Games where there's just one person slowly accumulating votes, or all types of dispersed votes, tend to end in a mislim that doesn't lead to any improvement in the following days.

Is it really working that way nowadays? :-O

Still, there's one thing that disturbs me.
Python's "trollhammer" gave a lot of momentum to this game. Why do you think it was a good timing to do as you described? Especially since there are still players who's given zero reaction on my wagon or the "trollhammer". (Why is it called "meme" anyway?)

I disagree. The trollhammer created a short outburst of activity that quickly faded away once people realized that Gimli was town and they were back to not having scumreads. Just read like the 10 posts before when I did that thing and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I called it a meme because I am a guy that uses slang weirdly sometimes and I saw (or think I saw) people using the word meme with the meaning "lying as a joke / trolling" so I copied that usage.

Now, this makes it the second time that I catch VIP scumreading someone for an action that could

maaaaaaybe

be scummy in isolation, but is completely and utterly not scummy in context. And it feels to me likes VIP is not actually reading people's posts and is just forcing scumreads as much as he can. Now, this COULD be just a village idiot, but from my experience village idiots flip scum >rand, so I think this makes it a good Day 1 wagon. If you want you can also call it a policy lim - do you really want town!VIP in F5? I don't. But again this probably has >rand chance to flip scum, and considering the current gamestate I'd take that over a completely random person.

VOTE: VIP

(Yes, I know this post is "performative". It's how I write. Deal with it.)

(2) I'm at a loss then. It wasn't a serious push? Didn't you start a new wagon because the current wagons weren't moving? Besides, didn't you have a scumread on me at that time? Which leads to
(3) Is pushing wagons to E-1 to pull out claims from townies an outdated scumtell? I remember seeing this in my first newbie, for example. If it's THAT outdated?
(4) Okay.

Then.
(a) Whut? "scum don't usually care which townies are eliminated" - as far as I can remember, I only played scum in early game like that when either me or a scum partner was in clear danger. If not, I'd always have townies on my Lim-list becuase of different reasons. Also, I'd usually hard townread townies for reasons, too. So, either my memories are wrong or selective, or the game has changed more than I thought.

On Python's trollhammer.
"The trollhammer created a short outburst of activity that quickly faded away once people realized that Gimli was town and they were back to not having scumreads. Just read like the 10 posts before when I did that thing and you'll see what I'm talking about."
Was Gimli townread by all? Well, he wasn't (and probably isn't, haven't checked the new posts) townread by me. (I don't think you care about this, though.) And at that time there were several players who hadn't reacted anything to that trollhammer! I would have been interested in their opinion. But in one thing you may be right, those reactions might not have come even if you hadn't moved on with that new wagon launch.

That's all I can answer right now.

Short summary. For me, it feels like we two are interpreting everything differently. But okay, I'm trying to see your point of view and you may be right: I'm scumreading you for wrong reasons.
This doesn't mean that I think you're town. This means, regarding reading you I'm back to square one. When I have time, I'll ISO you and try to get a more gameplay-up-to-date read.
But first, let me catch up and check the other posts.

UNVOTE:

[Aneninen]

(1) Am I representing you right if I interpret your "clear choice" pool Kittie, Timmer or Comet as a Lim-pool?
(2) Are you aware of the fact that you misquoted me by mistake and there were just as much terrible gameplay examples in my original post (See my previous post about it).

Warning: My original quote was modified according to 398.

those three atm and so I will wait to see where that goes. Therefore I remain focused on you.

Now in point 2 you say I am miss- quoting you. Well no. I read all you had to say and take up the other points you have included as examples of your play. But it was that one line that stuck.

Erm... if you have Kittie, Timmer and Comet in your Lim-pool, how about posting more about them to show us why they are scummy? Or is it yet another thing that has become outdated in the last 5 years?

But.
You DID misquote me. And you DID misrepresent me.

This was my original post:

I was erratic as shirt.
I had brilliant and horrible games, too.
Some of the most remarkable games I can remember: when I convinced the whole town that a player Nightkilled himself (I was SK), when I successfully Nightkilled the only conf-towm player (as TOWN Vig), when I intentionally made the most hostile ELo (LyLo) for myself, Nightkilling everyone else who was scumread by the townies and whined about it until I won (as scum), when I so blatantly overdid the "look how town I am" that I posted a terrible fake-claim and got hammered in one single page (as scum)...
With Aneninen in the game, everything is possible.

Also, Knott, I have some bad news for you. E.B.O.N.Y. was fully reconstructed 2 years ago. Even more secrets, even more meta and the highest level is above 80 now... ^_^

You quoted only this part, in 388:

Nightkilling everyone else who was scumread by the townies and whined about it until I won (as scum),when I so blatantly overdid the "look how town I am"

which you commented like this (before your quote):

I continued to feel a town vibe on VIP until I read 210. He states in that post, no actually drips with self gratification

And which you crystallized in this:

VIP has been doing the same thing but he has changed in his content as the game has progressed, he seems to be under pressure, why? Not sure. But then is he trying to swing us in his towniness or is it all a bluff and part of his self proclaimed brilliance at faking town when scum. So based on that:

For me, it's obivous that my original post wasn't suitable for the conclusion you drew on me. However, the PART you quoted from my post (which ends in the middle of a sentence!) was perfectly suitable for the same purpose. And you said that you didn't misquote me.

I know most of you think I'm a terrible player, but this is blatantly scummy for me.

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

[Aneninen]

Ok got it, so I’m still on your list?

Yeah

So, Comet, does this mean that it wasn't only me whom that question had given bad vibes?

I think Comet and Python are townie.

Python has given me town vibes since the start of the Day.
As far as I remember Comet's posts, I can give him a townread, too.

Not wrong but also maths/statistics is the strongest tool I have at this point in the game so I'm willing to use it. That and the fact it felt like the VIP vote was added on at the end as like a 'okay I had this post already written out but I see now that the current leading wagon is VIP and VIP isn't me or my scum partner so I'm totally happy to try and push this wagon to end day 1 with a misexecute so I'm just going to tack on a VIP vote at the end of it'. It seems even more likely when you note the timestamps (#388-#393) cause it shows a lot of it has been written up before and then posted all at once so the idea of then tacking on something at the end of it seems to make sense to me?

Could be.
There were about 13 minutes difference between Knott's #394 and #395, but only 3 minutes between #388 and #394. So he pre-wrote all the posts but not the conclusion? I don't think this is informative in itself. Is there anything I miss regarding this topic?

(Stopped at #432, need to walk the dog and other things.)

[Aneninen]

Yes that's a valid reason to scumread Knott, but it's not what you said.

Can you explain? It was for Comet's 432

Yes I started reading and making notes long before I posted those posts, I looked through all the the posts during the weekend period and copied out the quotes to Word then added my thoughts to them , I then posted them into the thread. Why?

I guessed there was something like that behind it.

Spoiler:

Long ago there was a game (unfortunately I don't remember which one) in which I launched a case because I doubted that a player could type a certain post in 50 secs or so. Even tried to type it. As far as I remember, I was wrong. Since then, I've pretty much ignored things like that.

Also I voted Knott for calling you scum over a bad reason, however I think I kinda understand his reason now, thence the unvote.

And what do you think about the fact that he quoted only the part of my post that appeared to be useful for fabricating a scumread on me? (This is what I think, see my earlier post about it.)

VOTE: TimmerRC

Have not read the last 2 pages in depth, however Tim has always bewn in mylimpool so happy to join the Volkswagen
VOTE: TimmerRC

Hmm...
Two quick votes for the same player close to each other. The same happened in 395 and 400. Knott first, Dragon next.

but that is the part that sticks with me. its not a misquote. And I believe I have said that I recognise the rest of the post, so no I disagree, Your words are such that it says to me we cannot trust you. Do you deny that you have said that you played scum and yet won because you were blatantly over doing the look how town I am? you're words not mine.

But you quoted only the part which was about a successful scum-game of mine, ignoring (1) my successful SK game, (2) my terrible town game and (3) my terrible scum game.
Search back: I was asked about my experience. I answered honestly: sometimes I'm brilliant and sometimes I'm horrible. I guess you intentionally ignored the horrible part, because it didn't fit in your scumread on me.

Also, did I say you couldn't trust me? Yes, I did. I don't trust anyone either. We have zero flips right now (thus, no real interactive tells either), so it's possible that (1) someone tells the truth and point out valid things, or (2) bullshirt around and post valid-looking things which are originated from bad posts, clever misinterpretation etc., or (3) genuinely reading, interpreting, representing things in the wrong way. On Day1, everyone is FoS in my eyes, so I expect the same attitude from others. After all, even the hardest townreads may turn out to be wrong later. I know it may sound scummy now, but I can't phrase this in a better way.

*camera pans to Black still laying in bed*
Alright alright I'll get up. I lost my job yesterday so I'm just slightly depressed

Oh.
We all feel sorry.
And we all hope you'll find a better job the soonest its possible. Pray if you're a believer.

[Aneninen]

Kittie.
498 - That's indeed a good summary on Gimli. (I've not checked it whether it was cherry-picking though, it may happen later but I've been thinking Gimli's scum anyway.)

499 - Python's a kind of vote-hopper troller player. I thought he was scum early in the game, and that hasn't changed since then.

I was thinking something similar. DE said he was trying to spice things up by having people do something, but his whole "let's build some wagons" thing happened right after Python's fake hammer. I think DE even said something like the fake hammer brought the game alive so I'm not sure why DE felt like he had to do something there to spice things up. I like that VIP noticed this too

So there are at least parts in my thoughts some players don't find outdated. Good.

I like A's little reread in 467 and 468 and I like the conclusion. Tim feels really lurky

"Little" rereads. Almost empty posts.

Am I the only one who found Black's catchup a bit empty compared to its length? (But I try not to be an aßwhole, knowing the IRL events this may be NAI.)

VOTE: Timmer
That's e-1. What are your thoughts on the game?

Why is that vote?
Why is Timmer so scummy? Only his lurkiness?

I have no reads, no vibes, no idea about anything. Page 21 is generally day 5 for the games I used to play, this is just overwhelming.

It's strange that Timmer doesn't even try to do anything, considering he's at E-1... I'm unsure whether it's alignment indicative, but my gut says it's typically "frustrated town".

My problem is that my traditional scum-hunting route is to ignore day 1, which is usually fluff, and wait for an elim, which in my mafia world usually was within the first 48 hours. Once that happened and then a night 1 death went through or didn't, I would start to analyze how people talked to each other, how they voted and most importantly when, and in what order. I'd look to find where the scum were hidden in voting patterns etc.

But this game so far, I don't see how I can really provide a read yet, because everything that everyone is saying is completely plausible as both town and scum, if they are good players. A good player can EASILY be scum and post pro-townie, ESPECIALLY on day 1. So when you guys are asking me for my thoguhts, I have none because I've got NOTHING that feels truly scummy to point to. Any of the posts made in this game up to now could easily be either alignment.

Oh, he tried after all.
And this is actually valid. (The same train of thoughts is the reason why I don't trust anyone on Day1, see my post above about it.) Still feels "frustrated town".

[Aneninen]

Kittie-Mix.

why were you so concerned that someone wasn't voting?

I don't like when someone's not voting for a long time. It's only my personal POV, but I consider it anti-town. Even if I remember doing the same shirt in certain games before.

why is this more opportunistic than anyone else switching their votes, with or with out a reason. why did you focus in on my votes? I feel like at this point in the game they were indeed the least scandalous votes.

Wasn't there a wagon starting on Gimli at that time?

I don't see the point of saying this other than to brag about how "genius" you are at playing... seems showy for no reason

I may have phrased it wrong, but I wanted to say this: the time you spent on the forum doesn't essentially correlates with the strength of your gameplay. The older games linked by Knott clearly showed this. I played poorly in both games, after all.

posts 193, 194, 207, 219
Why does this bother you so much, and why do you believe its so indicative of scum? This feels like grasping at straws... and those have been banned...

Please, specify. If you're still interested in.

I feel like python is playing a

good

game. solid stances, some thread control, relaxed and witty. A good game, but considering how what happened to timmer is what happened with every other LHF probable townie in the game (afrayed knott seems legitimate, so does kitty, for instance), then that means the scum, at least one of them, is doing exactly what python is doing. there are no scummy people left, so we have to look at who looks towny but doesnt

feel

very towny at all.

Uhhh... this "doesn't feel very towny" sounds like an excuse for not explaining things.

VOTE: usesPython

That's a bad vote.

Am I the only one who found Black's catchup a bit empty compared to its length? (But I try not to be an aßwhole, knowing the IRL events this may be NAI.)

What feels empty about it?

Why is that vote?
Why is Timmer so scummy? Only his lurkiness?

I thought the pressure would be valuable to read Timmer. Based on his reaction I feel like I was right

(1) I thought I found more content in it but whatever. Hence the () part.
(2) Okay. I had the same feeling.

[Aneninen]

I know you've already acknowledged your error, but can you PLEASE make an effort to use the correct pronouns? It's actually really irritating.

I'm just answering this part right now (it's late here).
Really, really, sorry, but it's hard for me to pay attention to this pronoun thing. Again, it wasn't a big deal five years ago. I'm not an offensive person, it's just not easy for me to get used to certain new things.

[Aneninen]

Busy day here, so don't expect a lot

[Aneninen]

where none of it is disagreeable and you just nod your head but it never gives off town vibes

Reading Timmer all I can see is a frustrated townie. I haven't caught up yet, though.

I'm saying Tim this game feels like Black in Newbie 2111

Can you summarize this? I have no time for checking old games right now.

Yes and no. I know some AI things happened, but I also know that I don't really care about any of them to be fully honest? You know how everyone was complaining about nobody being scummy? It was because no one WAS being scummy. The game didn't have anything scum indicative happening. You remember that I had to force a scumread on PAGE SEVEN? Not page 2. Not page 3. PAGE SEVEN. I was forcing a scumread because there was nothing to scumread.
So that's what I mean when I say nothing AI happened.

Okay, let's put it aside that I found about half of the players scummy (we've already talked a lot about this). Long ago, when nothing scummy happened, more often than not the scum were among those who produced little content. Not essentially lurking, sometimes this meant "empty posts" (which looked like reads or thoughts but if you tried to summarized them, you realized there had been little-to-zilch in them).
What if the same's happening here?

I actually missed the Anen posts regarding Knott, my bad - I'll respond to the pertinent bits.

So, Comet, does this mean that it wasn't only me whom that question had given bad vibes?

Yep. Not a strong point or anything but it gave me vibes of someone overly concerned with how they were being read and was the proverbial last straw for me to hop wagons.

There were about 13 minutes difference between Knott's #394 and #395, but only 3 minutes between #388 and #394. So he pre-wrote all the posts but not the conclusion? I don't think this is informative in itself. Is there anything I miss regarding this topic?

I think my reasoning at the time was that since #388-#394 were all put up as they were written it makes sense for them to be super clumped together whereas #395 was the post that in my head had subsequent alterations made to it (voting for VIP) so it would make sense for it to have a delay from the others.

But then would there really be that extended gap just to add in a vote without the explanation for it? Maybe if he was reading over the thread or even scum pt to discuss shifting wagons onto VIP...? I'm not entirely sold on this point. I feel like there's still something here about timeframes that I need to figure out but I acknowledge it's not really a strong or grounded point at this moment.

For me the first thing was definitely a stronger one, than the second one about the timeframes. However, am I right that the whole timeframe story generates more like a gut-read in you than a logical one?

2. I think you are wrong on Timmer being "classic newbtown". Unfortunately I am phone posting and tired so you don't get links, but please go check patchwork's and OMIGRON's ISO's in newbie 2112 or even Comet's, and compare to Timmer's ISO here.
Then have a look at elpis's ISO in newbie 2114 (elpis was scum) and also compare it to Timmer here. Please tell me which ISO Timmer feels most similar to.

Just a self-reminder. If I happen to have time, I'll check it. But right now, I don't even have time to re-read you in THIS game.


Timmer, 561. Are you trying to read players on the basis of the number of their votes and their position on a wagon? I may know less than most others how Mafia's being played here, but I don't think it's a good idea. The latter part, the position, is not entierly bad, but I think it's much more complicated than launching/joining. The first part is something I've never found informative. How often a player moves their vote tells more about their general playstyle than about their alignment.

Not feeling very hot right now, coming down with manful. So my posts maybe 1. Erratic, 2. With little thought and 3. short

Noted, I'll keep it in mind.

Does no one else find this passage of interaction strange?

502 503 504 505 506 507 512 then again here 543 to 546.

almost like, "Hey your wagon is rolling we need to deflect it away, so this is what is going to happen" or am I being paranoid?

Are you telling us that there's some hidden interaction between Timmer and Black?

maybe, maybe knot, but I see your point. it's getting tiresome for me. that's why I am trying to shift
focus, but he keeps pecking away

What's "pecking away"? (I'm not a native speaker and I've never heard this before.)

Lots of votes with original thoughts = town

Lots of votes on other people's work = scum

Have you ever heard of the concept "lazy town"?
Also, scum can post "original thoughts" to build up cases.

anyway off to cope with my manflu........

Get well soon!

Unfortunately I can't, I'm feeling tired/sick this morning, just check the post you linked and compare it with the one where she originally voted Knott, she gives in this (linked) one a different (better) reasoning than in the original one.

Get well soon, you too!
Take your time, I owe you a post or two, too...

[Aneninen]

I'll have a readlist, but not today.
Off to Sisters of Mercy soon. I hope they won't cancel the show...

[Aneninen]

Reading and posting in a couple of hours. Hopefully.

[Aneninen]

I actually agree with this somewhat.

This isn't always the case

but I think scum are way more likely to have unoriginal thoughts and votes

Is it the case with me?

Weird question. Let's see whether there will be an answer for that.

That was for the same post of Black:

Yeah, they tend to be blendy. Like someone else starts something and they say "yeah!" And vote with it. But they never take any stand of their own.
I'm still trying to learn the vibe here but that's the kind of thing I looked for where I used to play.

That's one behaviour scum can do. A pity that lazy-town can do the same and scum can build up genuine-looking cases, too. However, what you said here might be true for the site you used to play on, I guess.

Well you have over 5k posts on the site, so I'd say you prob know how mafia is played here?

That's what I'd thought before the game started. I don't think you haven't seen how many players pointed it out that the game had changed a lot while I'd been away.

And yes, it's the positioning of the votes, and their tendency to always be a second or third vote on someone that caught my eye the most.

There was (is?) an article about this topic on the Wiki, but it was outdated even in the era when I was new. It's hard to draw a conclusion only on the wagon position. That's what I experienced.

When the games most frequent voter, which dragon is, never starts anything of their own, except for one lone time and they literally pull back from it one post later, I feel it needs to be pointed out.

Why are you bringing up that "one lone time" so many times?

Everyone else is a blank in my head so this evening my plan is to give players like black, gimli etc some study.

Looking forward to reading it.

I think you are asking me for a meta read on you here and I don't really have one

...an evasive answer.

Well you have over 5k posts on the site, so I'd say you prob know how mafia is played here?

Fwiw I have over 6k posts here and I'm still trying to figure it out

But that question was for me and it was clear why it had been asked in its original context.

Ok I am here today. Let me make some coffee and then I'll look over what I missed

do your thing and let me sheep you

comet I want you to know I'm sheeping you, whoever you think is mafia I trust your insticts with it
I don't think I can find them

They feel kinda pockety and the "I don't think I can find them" doesn't really feel like a natural thought Gimli would have 20 pages into a game

Good finding!

I feel like limming inside Gimli/Black/Comet/DE is significantly more likely to hit red than Knott/Kittie/Tim/VIP

-A

But, but, but it was like this not so long before:

Not willing to vote Kittie/Knott today period, probably won't vote DE/Black/Comet, leaves Gimli/Tim/VIP

-A

What happened?

I don't think a deep-wolf/competent scum player here is unlikely.

Deep wolf = a scum who's hard to be caught?

[Aneninen]

I think I've already mentioned I didn't really find much of Kittie's points compelling in #552 but to re-establish, a lot of the points felt focusing on viewing Gimli as flip-flopping when I felt something had happened in between each flip-flop to give justification for the switch. I suppose you could say the act of flip-flopping itself is scummy but... eh...... I don't really view it as a strong scumtell. Could you point to anything you felt was particularly strong/convinced you Black? Nothing really jumps to me.

What would be worth to do to check the whole ISO of Gimli. To see whether it was cherry-picking from Kittie. Nevertheless, I can easily see a town mindset between Kittie's posts.
Also,

I can see Gimli being scum but not for the reasons Kittie pointed out is my point

This, but more like Gimli can be scum regardless of Kittie's post.

I'm stuck because the two top suspects forming in my head rn feel like they don't really fit as a scumteam. Hmmmm...

Again, I may be outdated but Day1 team speculation rarely worked long ago. I was told so multiple times (and I usually forked it up whenever I speculated).

The absence of weak links is also informative

Scum have Daytalk. Which means, the team could consist of an experienced and a less experienced player, too. Or two on paper less experienced, but still good players.

Just some additional thoughts.

Spoiler:

(1) I don't know whether this game counts as a "tought nut". When I was active, this was pretty much the usual level of games. Even newbies! It was very rare when there was a really weak scum player or when a scum blatantly slipped... and even so, the game was never easy. I remember a game catching a slip on Page1 - and it took me 3 Days (not days!) to get that scum Eliminated. He simply outplayed me and had much better "arguments" than I had.

(2) Time zones mmmmmight matter. Since there's Daytalk, it may be easier for the scum to communicate if they're in some similar time zones. If both of them are active, they can even talk out every vote, every argument... BUT I also know that it's way too farfetched to speculate on this.

not much to cherry pick, he doesn't post much.

See above.

what I found interesting about dragons voting style is that he seems to push for a wagon to be started by someone else, and then and only then joins it.

I've already reflected to something similar. It's usually not that informative as it looks like.


Knott, 647 - I wanted to see some reactions, too. What do you think of Timmer's recent posts?

persistently pushing might be a more understandable term, or is it "tunnelling"

Oh. We used the word "tunnelling" for that.

Stopped at #652.

[Aneninen]

I have no time to read on right now, but I try to post a readlist (posts over #652 are not included yet)

Knott - I still find him scummy, see my earlier posts. Even if you call me a tunneler.
Black - I don't see her as obv-town as a lot of other players do, but I don't think this Lim would happen Today, so whatever.
Comet - Townread on her (at least I know the correct pronoun now).
DragonEater - Unsorted, I owe you a re-read.
Gimli - Still scummy, partly because of that reaction on that "meme", but not only.
Kittie - I can see a town mindset here.
Timmer - I can see a town mindset here, too. But that Timmer-Black interaction might be a thing.
Python - Townread from the beginning, it hasn't changed since then.

Really concise, because I had little time for this.

[Aneninen]

Dear Mod,

but I'm not voting for TimmerRC! I'm voting for Afrayed Knott.

[Aneninen]

(I wanted to get back earlier, but there was some touching conversation between one of my daughters and me. Actually, they're step-dauthters, but I love them as if they were mine... no, you might not get it, and it's not relevant, but still true.)

The only lurker now is Gimli, there is nothing of substance from that slot.

And it's weird that he's lurking when he's one of the major wagons, isn't it?

or do Mods ensure a fair mix of experience in all teams?

Long ago, mods were obligated to randomize the roles. (Once I tried to mod a game, but I did a terrible job. Never again. My activity is way to erratic to mod.)

Lim on DE, Gimli or I. I know what I will flip and when you see that, if i am your choice, then Lim the other 2. Or is that just too much melodrama?

But it's only me, who's voting for you right now! (Yes, there was a mod error.) You're not a wagon at all.

IT's a fair bit of "i don't trust you" from you to them. What I found odd was the lack of a corresponding vote anywhere, but looking at my vote timeline chart thingy i made, you actually aren't very vote-y at all so it's not exactly a ping. I really just wanted to hear you elaborate on where you are at re: Gimli.

I've just checked. Black has never voted for Gimli.

The reaction to the fake hammer is interesting... I'm trying to think it through from their pov, and I'm struggling to find anything townie about it. It was clearly a gut reaction to thinking that the day had just spontaneously crashed to a close with an elim, but I feel like there is a stronger likelihood that such a move "I better pull out of that omg" would be made from a scum. Even if technically it makes no sense, a knee jerk reaction like that would be more likely from a baddie, I think as they are so acutely aware of how their votes can be evidence.

That may be something I wasn't able to put my finger on it. (I didn't really understand why some players thought Gimli's reaction on that meme-hammer had been town.)

But again, I'll just go back to shutting up, this site seems to not allow people to try to play after having a rough start.

You're wrong. Utterly, absolutely wrong. And this is not even a hostile game. (Or at least, 5 years ago there were games much more hostile than this.)


I don't know what's wrong with Black's 676. I only feel that it's deeply wrong.

I have nothing to respond to since I am indeed playing like ass
wrt black's scumread on me, I think it makes sense cause I'm not playing anywhere near her expectations. but its just rl taking over and I can't really focus or care enough about the game, but I can still play.
I still think black is likely town anyway
I think kittiesecret might be scum?

I so dislike this!
Especially since Black has never actually voted you!
Why does this feel like a scum going down?

[Aneninen]

I'm trying to adapt, this might be the first time I've ever tried to truly find a scum in a day 1, lol.

But why would it require coaching? An iso is an iso, just because I am used to making them starting on a day 2 doesn't mean a day 1 attempt needs guidance.

This so feels frustrated town.

Look at my earlier post about the possible relationship between Black and Timmer, then read the recent interaction between the two. It stinks of a pre planned effort to engage Tim and deflect attention, with some clever positioning by Black.

Thats what I’m seeing

How I hate to admit when my scumread points something out that can be true...!
But yes, that's very possible. However, there are two caveats. One is objective, one is subjective.
(1) Mafia has Daychat. They could be much more subtle in-game.
(2) I still don't think Timmer's scum...
(3) I can easily imagine a Black+Gimli team, see my post above.
(4) And I know Day1 team speculation is buttoned shirt.

Oh, that was four. I added the VAT then.

Oh, I am finally back in business
And I'm apparently being voted. How nice.
Give me some time to read, will you?

Sure. But we have 2 days 10 hours or so.
I know that I still haven't ISOed you yet, but that can wait, I guess. We need to start compromising on someone, because No-Elim is much worse than Mis-Elim on Day1. And I don't think there will be time for a Dragon wagon even if I find you scummy after the re-read.

So both Gimli and I are at 3 votes and you vote this bluntly without explanation and without mentioning it is e-1?

4 votes is E-1, not 3. And you're not even E-2. (Meanwhile, I can see that my vote has been fixed.)

If Gimli flips scum, Afrayed is his teammate, this is sloppy

Just why on God's Green Earth?

Dear Mod,

but I'm not voting for TimmerRC! I'm voting for Afrayed Knott.

Fixed, thanks!

Thank you, too.

[line][/line]

With all that said, we really need to start to consolidate.

(1) I think the Timmer wagon's bad. He's most likely a frustrated town, unless...
(2) he's scum with Black. But
(3) Black can be scum together with Gimli, too - yeah, team speculation on Day1 is buttoned shirt, I know, so,
(4) I guess my idea that Black's scum is based un team speculation and I don't think that wagon would ever reach a Lim Today, and
(5) Afrayd Knott is not happening, nor Dragon (whose alignment I'm totally idea-less now), which crystallizes in
(6) Only one possibility:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gimli

Point it out if my logic's flawed.

[Aneninen]

Also, those Python votes are terrible as fork. Who are they? Oh wait... Black and Gimli.

[Aneninen]

This feeling?

UNVOTE:

I’m sorry, but does no one else see what I see. Black, Timmer and either VIP or Gimli?

That’s my scum, now.

VOTE: Timmer

So, you think it's either Black+Timmer or Black+Gimli or Timmer+Gimli?
If I don't leave out myself, it can be Black+Aneninen or Timmer+Aneninen?

Is that what your're saying?

If you were talking about something else, go on.

[Aneninen]

What the fork has happened here meanwhile?

[Aneninen]

Also, I've finally reached pagetop with some really irrelevant post!

[Aneninen]

I know this is lame af but I'm trying to get more sleep these days so I will answer you tomorrow, Black.

Sorry.

Same here, so I know the feeling.
It's late here and I'm tired enough to admit how much I enjoy 1vs1s. I'll check your case and may call Black for a dance tomorrow...

[Aneninen]

getting to E-1 is my specialty

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

[Aneninen]

I hope I can catch up in the evening.

[Aneninen]

Dragon, you're soooooooooooooooooo obviously scummy that I genuinely start thinking that you're not scum at all. ^_^

Or it's only in my mind again? I'll brief it soon, need to work meanwhile, but since we're in the same timezone, we can talk.
And no, I'm not going to vote you right now, I have better places for my vote. And, surprisingly, exactly 2.

[Aneninen]

Dragon, let me brief my "case" on you first.

(1) A lot of "about Mafia in general", which is giving town-vibes by nature, but, actually is not an alignment tell.

(2) Things like this:

ask yourself "if DE is scum that just got attacked for not having original reads, is he really going to do what he is doing now?"
The answer is no because DE is a fucking bad scum player. I have 25% winrate as scum on this site, unlike Black who has roughly 100% winrate as scum. Just as a rough estimate.

In other words, you've kept telling us that you can't be scum because you're terrible at being scum.

(3) Also, you DID have a lot of original reads. Technically, you DID have a scumcase on almost all of us. Which I saw from scum before a lot of times. It was (is?) called "throwing mud at the wall and see what sticks".

(4) Kittie, I hope you're reading now. It's NOT the fact how many times Dragon voted. It's the fact that he ended up hammering Gimli - literally the only player he hadn't voted for before!

Spoiler:

Dragon's votes: Python, Knott, Comet, (Unvote), Kittie, Aneninen, Kittie, Black, (Self-vote), Aneninen, Knott, (Unvote), Timmer, Black, (Unvote), Gimli

(5) Your whole attitude around and since the hammer. E.g., 826, 840 (backpedalling on the Black case, which was actually not half as bad as you stated, what if making room for the Gimli hammer in your progression.), 861 (!!! - terrible vibes), 863 (!!! "I can't believe I threw like that." - about the hammer), 866, and 872 with "Or alternatively, if someone has a guilty or a hot scumread, let me know.", which suggest that he knows more about the Setup than we do.

BUT.

There's a big BUT which consists of two parts. One older and one newer. I'm not talking about that yet, but it's still there and it makes me more than hesitant to vote for Dragon today. And this BUT makes me saying, Dragon's "too scummy to be scum".


Post-edit.
I haven't read the new posts yet, but Timmer's forking town. I'll search for one of his posts soon which tells me why.

Plus, my actual scumreads are coming soon, too.

[Aneninen]

So.

Who I think the scum are.

(1) Knott.
Let me not repeat half of my late Day-1 posts about this. But there are some new things.

I feel Black and Timmer for definite. And then one of you or Gimli

For the question who the scum are.
Not only the fact that there are only 2 scum in the game. I'm sure it was mentioned before a couple of times. I'm lazy to dig it up, but I remember giving answers like "partner speculation on Day1 is bad", and there were other mentions too. So, either it's blatantly fake or Knott wasn't reading at all. (Interestingly, he was reading it enough to give reasons for voting for Timmer or me.)

My vote on Back was a genuine failed attempt to lure a hammer onto Gimli and prove my point that Black and Tim are the scum team. which I still maintain.

What the actual fork this meant?

Question: why is python going after the more experienced players and not the newbies? is it to make the game easier later?

Whut?
Python are dead. What if they were just... reading the game?

Down with Covid and have decided to stay in this game for now as I at least have a read on the game.

Get well soon!

Meanwhile, I'm moving to my next scumread.


(2) Black.
I told you on Day1, too, that I hadn't gotten why she'd been townread by most. I also pointed it out that her posts had had much less content in them than it had looked like.
As I said in the previous post, Dragon's case in 701 wasn't that bad, even if he took it back later, but:

Black's posting has been designed to stop as many wagons as possible from occurring, so as to get town to give up and just drift into not solving the game and doing a random compromise vote.

is more like
"Black's trying to be away from all the Mis-Elim while hoping that the town does all the dirty work for her."
When I was trollhammered, she jumped off my wagon and avoided me like plague. Then she usually tiptoed around wagons clearly not reaching Elimination. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but when she jumped on the Dragon wagon my vote had been already elsewhere.)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand

if you have time,

just check the whole Knott-Black interaction!!!

They keep some "healthy" distance, Knott was putting some vote on Black when it was safe, but among other scumreads so that he could pick another name from the list in case of danger. And for some reason, they were after Timmer.

So,

Also, please don't murder me if I'm wrong because this was some weeks ago, but I do think Black's treatment of Comet here is reminiscent of her treatment of Aureal in that game. If you really want me to I might check it again later today to really compare.

If you have time, that would be of great help.
Personal meta is always more valuable as second-hand.


That said,

VOTE: Black

[Aneninen]

As for Timmer, THIS is the post:

Now THIS feels like fucking mafia.

We know that he's from another page.
And he posted this when suddenly the game-pace started to increase.
What I can see is a townie who was frustrated because of not being able to get some reads - and who got excited when the gamestyle changed into the direction he was much more familiar with.


I have no idea why Python were Nightkilled. I considered them obv-town, but the most of you didn't share this. Regarding their reads, besides Gimli, there were Black, Timmer and Me (and sometimes others) - so it would be quite a tinfoil if I told you I could see Black picking them because of their reads, I guess... Let me tell you if you see more there.

[Aneninen]

What's even the point of this case, VIP, if you are just gonna say you aren't scum reading me at the end?

I'll answer that when everyone's been around.

So far the only people who omgused me are Tim and Black, IIRC.

Wasn't I doing the same actually?

VIP, Knott isn't mafia.

Show me something why not.
I stated the same about Timmer and I gave some explanation.


But you can take your time, I don't think it would be wise to go after Knott until he's getting better. (Yes, it's a possibility that he's faking that he has COVID, but that would be suboptimal in the long run. That's something a player can fake exactly once as an excuse. So I simply ignore this possibility.)

Why do you think Python died? Simply because they were obv-town?

Who do you think the scum on the Gimli wagon was or were?

[Aneninen]

He's not faking covid.

It's also very rude to say that he might be faking it.

I might have phrased that badly, sorry, Knott if you put it in the way Dragon said, but my conclusion was that he was NOT faking it.

[Aneninen]

He's not faking covid.

It's also very rude to say that he might be faking it.

I might have phrased that badly, sorry, Knott if you put it in the way Dragon said, but my conclusion was that he was NOT faking it.

Out of Fucking order !!

I said I'm sorry.

I wanted to say that it would be silly to question IRL conditions like that. I also wanted to point it out that it wouldn't have in-game benefit either. So I pre-emptively took COVID out from the further in-game reasoning. Probably I should pay more attention when I'm working meanwhile.

Again, get well soon!

[Aneninen]

Do note that's E-1 (not that I'm complaining)

It is.
And please, DON'T HAMMER until all players have posted Today.

Right now, only 3 of the 7 players have spoken Today.

I'll respond all the other posts later.

[Aneninen]

UNVOTE:

Only because if someone quickhammers before we've seen some useful content from everyone, we'll be in a horrible situation tomorrow.

I'll check the recent posts later and explain the sentence above, too, if needed.

[Aneninen]

Where's everyone?

I think the line in 809 is quite telling.

This was the post:

We're fine with Gimli and Tim wagons, and we're willing to go with a spicy Black wagon if it becomes needed. Zero interest in Knott/Kittie/Comet wagons rn

With this addition:

Add VIP to this btw, kinda forgot he existed

Knott, my problem with this is that in the "quite telling" post Python would wagon Gimli (who flipped town), Tim (whom you've been scumreading anyway) and more or less Black (whom you've been scumreading anyway, too). Would you have brought this up just as eagerly if Python had mentioned other names?
By the way, my name was there, too. If I read it correctly, they'd have wagoned me, too.
They didn't mention Dragon at all.

So far the only people who omgused me are Tim and Black

Why do you think OMGUS-ing is essentially a scumtell? I consider it simply bad player-tell. In certain situations, e.g., when someone's getting tunneled and scumread regardless of everything they post, it can even be a towntell. Scum can OMGUS too for the same reason, indeed.
Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here, since I talk about my old experiences.

Knott sounds like a frustrated townie 50% of the time, and like he's trying to solve the game 50% of the time.

My opinion:
Timmer sounds like a frustrated townie 50% of the time, and like he's trying to solve the game 50% of the time.

I know that there's a 5/9 chance for an investigative role to exist in the setup, since it's a semi-open setup. I also don't think there are masons (based on associations), unless Black and Comet are masons which would be fucking hilarious. But anyway there's a pretty good chance someone has an investigation role and could have a guilty.

I really, really don't like speculations like this. If someone has anything to say (3 players still haven't posted anything), they'll do so. Nevertheless, the problem is that a Tracker positive can mean a sure scumread, but a Tracker negative not. Jailkeeper is not half as investigative as it looks like.

VIP you are so wrong really you are. But hey it’s obv you have an issue with me. And have had all game. I mostly read you as town, even with this tunnel vision you have. So shut up and start looking elsewhere. I’d also state that I’m reading DE as town now.

Why should your read affect my read on you?
Besides, what's that "start looking elsewhere"? I was voting for Black when you posted this. And willing to put my vote back as everyone's told everything they want Today.
Call me a tunneler, I remember having a bad reputation for that, but you care more about my read on you than anything else in this game!

DE/VIP is my hero solve and I think they are acting a little too casual about me being at e-1 so quickly. I think town players are more likely to play this slower and not risk the Day ending this soon.

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

What the actual fork?
Since when voting for my scumread has been scummy?
Besides, I was the first one voting for you!
But okay, I removed my vote until everyone has showed up.

Something came up and I won't be able to post today but I will get around to this first thing tomorrow morning

EST? Or West Coast time (what's that called)?
I'm asking because I'd like to see a readlist from you. Plus, answers for the same questions I asked from Dragon.

[Aneninen]

I literally can't wrap my head around this. How can you call this a "hero solve" when (a) VIP has been low hanging fruit for most of yesterday, and (b) there was apparently town consensus (at least according to 848 by Comet) that I was second or third most lim-able yesterday after Gimli.

It might be a bit off, but it's actually not.
Isn't it strange how many low hanging pieces of fruit we had Yesterday... yet there were people complaining about not being able to find real scumreads?

Like for fuck's sake, I started the day by telling people to eliminate me because I know I just don't live to 3p ELo. What is this?

Bad townplay or WIFOM. I learnt it in the hard way that the more I tell this, the more likely it is that I'll be at the ELo in the end.

instead of yelling "please don't hammer Black!!!!!"

Fork this shirt, I literally posted "PLEASE DON'T HAMMER!" As you pointed it out, too.
By the way, I even posted it Yesterday that I'd "have a dance" with her. Or something similar.

once again it was Knott putting someone at E-1 without saying as such.

Hm. Which one was the first time? Timmer or me?

near the end of Day 1 his scumreading on Black was dependent on Gimli being scum (he wasn't) and his other scumread was VIP who is... on the Black wagon today that he joined.

Did you mean this?

VOTE: Black

Are you voting Black for not voting for Gimli because you think Gimli is scum? Shouldn't you be voting Gimli to confirm if he's scum before then going on Black?

Interested in the answer to this.

Why? Tell you what, too answer all my questions to you and I’ll answer this

Actually no. I will answer it. Black you and either Gimli or VIP were my scum reads Gimli was at E1 I was interested to see what Black did, considering they hadn’t voted for Gimli. So I put my vote there.

What if he wanted to stay away from the Gimli wagon because he knew what the flip would be?
He was flip-flopping on me, anyway. It's more strange for me that he's so concerned about my read on him. And much less concerned about all the others reading him.

I think his justification here today is he's sheeping Python but... why?

I pointed out the same thing.

Dragon/VIP/Knott - are you comfortable with the fellow people on your wagon here?

Not really.
Dragon, well, he's a "too scummy to be scum" read for me, as I said before. But I want to explain this later. So , he's more or less okay.
Knott, on the other hand, just jumped from Timmer on the Black wagon. However, wagoning Black is much, much better than wagoning Timmer. And Dragon stated that Knott was town, and I started to think what if I was wrong about Knott.

Nevertheless, I unvoted for now. I hoped when Black saw her wagon she'd do something unexpected under pressure... but apart from some OMGUS we got nothing. It might be because she announced later that she'd have a busy day.

I'm not saying Black scum is impossible here but this huge push right out the gate feels off - especially with the overlap between this Black wagon and the Gimli wagon.

That's Dragon and me. Knott was voting for Black at that time.
Actually he might have put his vote on Black Today genuinely. But why didn't he told us that it was E-1? Or is he bussing Black? Not a good strategy, if he'd waited for the other players it might have been safer.
No, this doesn't add up. I must miss something. Or I'm being outplayed by someone.

I wanted to push Black yesterday. Nobody listened to me and the person I townread the most told me to vote Gimli, so I did it. Now people are actually scumreading Black so it makes total sense to go after her without hesitating.

You actually withdrew your case on Black.

I will admit that I have incorrectly scumread Black in Newbie 2119, but her vibes this game are vastly different than in Newbie 2119 (and in that game, when the moment of truth came, I couldn't even bring myself to vote her). I think her playstyle this game is more similar to her playstyle in Open 885 (where she was scum) than in Newbie 2119 (when she was town).

That's something. But less than I expected.
What do you think of these two things?
(1) The Black-Knott interaction whole game. Recent hint: she posted this: "DE/VIP is my hero solve" in 903 leaving out Knott ENTIRELY! Ignoring that Knott was voting for her, too!
(2) The way she wants to keep away from MisElim wagons (see my earlier post about it).

[Aneninen]

I unvoted and said it wasn;t as strong as I thought. I didn't intend for it to be construed as a complete withdrawal.

Oh. Then I misinterpreted that post.

Sure I can see that but I also don't think it's that far fetched for her, regardless of alignment, to have a solve that includes 2 people and not 3. Considering there are only 2 scum.

So she just picked Dragon+me because why not? Which reminds me of something...

...I really, really don't like that we still haven't seen anything from Timmer or Kittie Today!

[Aneninen]

I mean, I don't think Timmer could be scum.
My last read on Kittie was something like "could be town after all".

But we're so ignoring them Today!

[Aneninen]

Frankly said, it's more than 2.5 hours now, it's in your active time zone (in the US), and all I can see is that I'm conversing with Dragon! I seriously start to think that I'm wrong about everything and the actual scum are just waiting until this Dragon, Knott, Black, Aneninen section are eating each other because of being active?????????????????????????????????????????????,

[Aneninen]

Sorry, everyone.
This is not working for me anymore.

@Mod, replace me out.

Have fun!