Open 885: Backup6 [Game Over]

[Abnegation]

mine.

[camelCasedSnivy]

WHY IS THERE A RATE LIMIT FUCK

[Abnegation]

MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[camelCasedSnivy]

t'was just a thought, not anything i'm sure of.
it's the whole "would they really say that about their scumbuddy?"

why not

in fact let me see every time aureal has mentioned dannflor

[camelCasedSnivy]

well she has talked about him a lot more than i thought

i might be confbiased but i believe that she is scum talking to other scum

like she

felt

like she had to unvote her partner at one point or something along those lines

[Ircher]

Day 2 VC #4

Abnegation

(1): Black (837)

Aureal

(1): camelCasedSnivy (825)

camelCasedSnivy

(2): Aureal (819), meowmeow (842)

Not Voting

(3): Abnegation, iamveryhappy, Dannflor (960)

With seven alive, it takes four votes to fade a player.

Deadlines

This phase will end on Thursday, October 12, 2023 5:30 PM CDT (GMT-5:00) or in (expired on 2023-10-12 17:30:00).

Moderator Notes

1: If you have regular weekend V/LA, you must either notify me each time or set V/LA tags each time.
2: Let me know if you spot any errors in the vote count or voting history.
3: Let me know if you go by a different pronoun than listed.
4: The moderator is V/LA from October 9 to October 11.

Pronoun Key

1. camelCasedSnivy : he / him / his
3. Black : she / her / her
4. Aureal : she / her / her
6. Dannflor : he / him / his
7. meowmeow : any / any / any
8. iamveryhappy : he / him / his
9. Abnegation : she / her / her

[Aureal]

Oh no, Snivy set Alianna up for a page top, clearly they're working together!

I don't even know what to think about Snivy's supposed suspicion of me now, it's so obviously off base that maaaaybe it isn't that likely to be scum. "One thing on the second day" really??

I really don't know where else to look though, Abnegation and iamveryhappy give me more mixed signals and I just kinda want to townbin the rest of you.

[Abnegation]

if it is aureal/dann, they've done an almost comically exaggerated good cop/bad cop scheme with their black reads, with dann wall-tunnelling and aureal being like, "OMG SO OBVTOWN HOW CAN THEY SCUMREAD THIS!!!???"

Spoiler: (some of the) relevant dann quotes

I think Black is scum.

I scum read the tone on Black's entrance like some other people did but her response to her wagon and to me in particular has solidified that read a lot.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Some people had a bad reaction to this, for good reason. It's a read that apologizes for itself. When people roll mafia they can often enter a game with a bit of a sense of subconscious guilt. The red role PM weighs on their conscience. It might seem ridiculous to read this much into a "probably" and a "?," but combined with the fact that Black seems like a fairly confident player, I think it betrays someone who is (whether consciously or subconsciously) a little worried that throwing out a read like that is going to be viewed negatively by the other players in the game.

I don't mind T3's vote on me. I like that he admitted he was grasping at straws to start discussion

CCG's vote feels bad though. Putting me at e-2 by piggybacking off of someone grasping at straws and doubling down on their point feels off

CCGeek, how can you find T3's aggression possibly 'faux' but also agree with the point he made?

Oh right because you're scum.

You may be right here

VOTE: CCGeek

I think this progression too shows Black is feeling a little self-conscious to be the first one to put a read out there. If Black scum read's CCG's vote on her, why doesn't she vote him in 54? Instead, she waits until she's read and acknowledged Aureal's 51 that shades CCGeek to jump on the wagon. I think if Black had a pure and innocent heart and actually felt bad about CCG's vote she'd put a vote there without any hesitation.

I also think specifically calling out "putting me at e-2" is slightly scum indicative. It is consistently more likely for town players to not pay attention to where the votes are at when they throw down a vote. Scum players have to be very careful about how they are perceived and how the timing of votes might look later down the line. And while I don't think it is necessarily scum indicative for Black to *be aware* of how many votes she has accumulated, I do think it is scum indicative that she used that as a point against CCGeek, as if she found something objectively scummy with which to discredit his push with.

Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?

OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that

What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?

Black even then later acts like it doesn't make a difference whether CCGeek meant to put her at E-2 or not, despite using the fact that CCGeek had put her to E-2 as a point of suspicion against CCGeek in post 54.

This doesn't read like someone who is genuinely trying to figure out CCGeek's alignment, it reads like someone trying to get CCGeek in a "Gotcha!"

==============================

Anyway, I imagine Black is feeling like she's under a lot of pressure for not a lot of reason pretty early in this game. But, I think if she was town, she'd more interested in trying to determine the alignments of the people on her wagon. Instead, she seems more interested in discrediting all the votes on her. I think this is evident in her pushes on both CCGeek and myself.

Even her read on T3, she's like "oh it's towny because it's grasping for straws and just trying to start discussion," which discredits the actual read. The moment someone seriously scum reads her, she pushes back and discredits.

For one thing, I think it's weird she goes after me for a "perspective slip" despite CCGeek arguably doing the same thing by saying that Black is "tunneling" in 95, normally something you'd say to a person you think is town. It's for this reason that I don't really believe that she thinks I'm scum, or that she's genuinely trying to parse CCGeek's alignment.

I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing 98 comes from someone that thinks I'm probably scum. You conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others and then spoke to me as if you were trying to convince me that CCG is town. If I'm your #1 suspect then it doesn't make sense for you to address me this way. I don't like this at all

You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both

VOTE: Dannflor

As far as this post goes, it's just loaded with scum rhetoric.

I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?

I think "You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both" doesn't make sense as a real town thought. I think at this point town!Black would have an idea in her head of which is more likely. She'd be constructing a world that makes my behavior and CCGeek's behavior make sense. Calling out two very different worlds (me and CCG as scum buddies and CCG as town) without really giving either one more credence than the other makes it seem like she isn't really considering each of these worlds and what they might mean. Instead, this feels like a rhetorical device to both discredit all the people on her wagon and make it seem more likely that I'm scum by offering up two different ways that I could be scum in this scenario.

I don't think Black actually believes that because I challenged her read on CCG, that means that I made a perspective slip that makes me scum. I think she feels like she has to push me in this way and if she were town I think there would be more of an attempt to see where I'm coming from.

There's not even an attempt really to build a coherent case against me. Instead, 108 is filled with a lot of statements that are supposed to make it seem more believable that I'm scum, with my "convenient hop on to a wagon built by others" thrown in there as if that makes sense as a reason for me to be scum "I don't like this at all" thrown in there to make the read seem more real, and "you're either scum with CCG or scum playing us both" thrown in there to make me seem more likely to be scum. I don't think any of these statements reveal that Black has genuinely thought about my alignment and what is most likely to be happening in this game.

anyway tl;dr I'd like to kill Black today

I think CCG is town and I think T3 is town

We should still kill Black today.

For one thing, we have two vanilla townie claims. I'd really prefer not to run up another player and out a PR if we think there is scum in either of these two claims. And I do. Looking at the claims, I think the the way Generic did it, as kind of a self-righteous taunt towards Black, probably comes from town. It throws away a powerful play by mafia for no reason to out PRs and Generic wasn't in a position where he was facing any pressure. It's a bad play, to be sure, but I think he's town for it.

On the other hand, Black didn't even explicitly claim.

so you were cool with being patient and letting the day play out until i pushed you, now suddenly you call for thunderdome and are rallying everyone to vote?

yeah, Generic is probably just scum here.

i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway

In this post, Black betrays that she is not a TPR by saying she's fine with dying. The problem is, I think if Black was actually town she'd think about the ramifications of claiming here. Why did she say the bolded line? I think the purpose is to seem like she doesn't care about dying and so that people will read that as town.

Why does being at e-1 mean Black should be eliminated first? Why is she actually okay with going first as town? As I've been told, Black is *not* a confident player in her scum and town reads as town. So, why now is she so confident that she is willing to trade her own life on this read?

====================================================================

To be clear,

@Aureal

, I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" or however you are representing my read. In fact, it's kind of the opposite.

A lot of Black's posting this game is focused around *looking town,* not being town. I would expect posting more in line with this game: viewtopic.php?t=90662&user_select%5B%5D=36961 if Black were town. Where Black is pretty unfiltered, her posts are on the shorter side, she asks probing questions, posts half baked thoughts... etc. That seems to be Black's town game from what I've researched about her meta.

That is not the same as her posting this game. Her posting this game feels overwrought and LAMIST.

Here are some quotes from a previous scum!Black game: viewtopic.php?p=13681045&f=11&t=90607&u ... #p13681045

Spoiler:

I'm not seeing the harm at putting someone at e-2. Let's assume all town votes are on the wagon. Do we really think the wolves will come through and quick hammer that? And if we assume there is one (or even two) wolves on the wagon already then townies coming through to hammer is also very unlikely

Sometimes putting someone at e-2 is good for reactions and to see how other players interact with that game state. Especially if you think that person's entrance was more likely to come from a wolf than a townie

A pretty LAMIST post in that it focuses on showcasing how Black cares so much about reactions and scumhunting, while not actually adding any content related to the game at hand.

I agree Delta. But what I find weird is that you don't consider my actions as trying to get out of RVS. I don't really like the phase so I tried to advance the game with 19, 23, and 31

As far as relying on meta, I'm not. I was just explaining why I didn't agree that Human was acting scummy

Another post where Black tries to create the narrative that she is trying to advance the game. scum!Black seems to care a lot about *looking* town.

I'm comfortable voting kawaii atm but I don't want to put them at e-1 because I don't think we should end the day any time soon. I still want to hear more from Arko

Another post where Black very explicitly spells out that she wants to do the *pro-town* thing. I don't think town!Black would actually care to be this explicit. She could just say that she's scum reading kawaii but doesn't want to e-1 yet. The "I don't think we should end the day any time soon" part is only there for Black to look more town.

I guess the best way to summarize the way I am reading Black's meta.

scum!Black cares about getting town read, and she posts stuff that she thinks will get her town read.

town!Black seems to care quite a bit less about getting town read and more about solving the game (this is probably why she gets scum read more as town than as scum )

In post 137, Brian Skies wrote:
I feel comfortable townreading this slot. Their posts feel genuine to me and I can vibe with their analysis.

I throw out these exact same generic TRs when I'm wolf. Like all the time

Also, here's an interesting post by Black from a town!Black game, especially considering the first post of the game that started garnering Black scum reads.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

In addition, here is a bunch of Black posts made this game that I think fit the model of Black explicitly trying to get town read through her posting:

I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAP

i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway

you won't be able to weasel your way out of getting faded D2 and town will already be down 3 members assuming the NK goes through

unfortunately it doesn't look like i'll be getting the pleasure

all of these posts are just very, "looks like im gonna die oh well! look at me im so town!" it feels very disingenuous and from looking over Black's town games, it really doesn't look like the way town!Black posts.

I also just think her posts are kind of overwrought. I first noticed this with 108, where there's a lot of extra words used to reinforce Black's confidence in her scum read on me like "I don't like this at all" and the "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others" lines.

I think some of her posts arguing with Generic have also been scummy, like 247, where she makes a pedantic argument that because she used the words "probably" and "likely" she's actually not very sure about her scum read on Generic. This is despite the fact Black has implicitly said she's fine with trading her life for Generic's, she's apparently that confident in her scum read on Generic.

I don't think 255 or 258 are particularly towny either. Black is using the logic that Generic shouldn't want to be elimmed first, despite once again having just said that she is *fine* with being elimmed first. I think it's overly conciliatory considering the tone of the argument thus far and Black is looking to be seen as the reasonable one, not actually determine Generic's alignment.

Spoiler: relevant aureal quotes

Whatever happened to the fine art of the TL;DR?

:sigh:

TL; DR: Black is locktown

If you're actually town and try very hard to win, you should try going to read some towngames of Black's.

Like maybe this one or this one.

aureal what do you think i should look for specifically in black's town game that is different from her scum game

I have an idea guys. How about we pretend the last 10 pages never happened and this is page 1? -_-

i feel like it has been mostly civil. i'm sorry if this isn't enjoyable for you

i should probably just step away for the night

I'm glad you're not feeling too distressed by it then, but I would still like to try to yeet scum. I don't feel like this is very likely to accomplish that. Generic seems to be pretty ego-driven, with his fixation on "oooh hoo, I'm gonna catch the one who hasn't been caught!"

The same applies somewhat to all of you who are still dogging Black despite having been clearly warned that this is a regular pattern. It's tempting when dealing with someone who has a strong scum reputation to snatch at any little something that feels weird, I know. You don't wanna be a chump getting fooled. But you've gotta understand that being town does not make someone a logic computer. Black is very open as town and shares her thoughts, even if they're not well formed yet, asks questions that may not end up really have much purpose, shamelessly trying to solve the game rather than look good. This player archetype is apparently pretty hard for some people to figure out, but until I see Black roll scum and mimick it, I'm gonna call her town when I see this sort of thing.

I'm glad you're not feeling too distressed by it then, but I would still like to try to yeet scum. I don't feel like this is very likely to accomplish that. Generic seems to be pretty ego-driven, with his fixation on "oooh hoo, I'm gonna catch the one who hasn't been caught!"

What are your thoughts on players not named Generic and Black?

Still happy with my vote on CCGeek.

Really exasperated with Dunn's vote on you. Like, he opens with acknowledgement that your posting style has you use words expressing uncertainty a lot, then is concerned because you used a question mark on something that wasn't a question. Then the very next sentence is also an acknowledgement that he doesn't think you're a confident player. COME ON MAN Then he basically just goes "this is a good point" a couple times and calls something a false dilemma and scum indicative. I'm not even sure what he's referring to there because it's replying to Dannflor and trying to read Dannflor's wallposting about you is just MAKING MY EYES ROLL OUT OF MY HEAD with how ridiculously he's acting with all the "town Black should've thought about things better" crap.

Why isn't happy doing anything? Weird. If scum has been off your wagon I would guess him over Snivy.

i am not prepared to say if that is or isn't partner-indicative but it's interesting to note and i would be curious if anyone else has thoughts on it.

[Abnegation]

Oh no, Snivy set Alianna up for a page top, clearly they're working together!

I don't even know what to think about Snivy's supposed suspicion of me now, it's so obviously off base that maaaaybe it isn't that likely to be scum. "One thing on the second day" really??

I really don't know where else to look though, Abnegation and iamveryhappy give me more mixed signals and I just kinda want to townbin the rest of you.

yeah this game is hard. nobody's been outright scummy to me.
(another reason to be paranoid my townreads are playing me)

[Ircher]

Prodding iamveryhappy (1d 19h). He has (expired on 2023-10-06 21:00:00) to respond in-thread before I seek a replacement.

[iamveryhappy]

Oh no, Snivy set Alianna up for a page top, clearly they're working together! :lol:

I don't even know what to think about Snivy's supposed suspicion of me now, it's so obviously off base that maaaaybe it isn't that likely to be scum. "One thing on the second day" really??

I really don't know where else to look though,

Abnegation and iamveryhappy give me more mixed signals and I just kinda want to townbin the rest of you. :?

Meh
Lazy

[Black]

oh also

mine.

I can't believe this

[Black]

Oh no, Snivy set Alianna up for a page top, clearly they're working together!

I don't even know what to think about Snivy's supposed suspicion of me now, it's so obviously off base that maaaaybe it isn't that likely to be scum. "One thing on the second day" really??

I really don't know where else to look though,

Abnegation and iamveryhappy give me more mixed signals and I just kinda want to townbin the rest of you.

Meh
Lazy

This is kind of ironic coming from you. Can you please play the game?

[Aureal]

Was... that comment directed at me? I don't know that 'ironic' is a strong enough word to describe it if so.

[iamveryhappy]

That was very ironic ;)

[Aureal]

Alright, iamveryhappy shall henceforth be referred to as Alanis.

[iamveryhappy]

huh

[Aureal]

i think the only way that aureal dies is if i die here so that kinda sucks for me

dann why did you vote me and revoke it anyway

Why do you think Aureal/Dann is the solve?

if aureal is town then she decided to make a read off of one thing on the second day which is a terrible move in my opinion

dann not only was in my iamveryhappy/dunn/dann poe but he is kinda just sitting on the sidelines and NOW is pretending to not be confident on me

Wait, what poe? You've been maintaining a townread on Alanis even as you said there was one scum in that group. If you're still so confident in all that, why start the day like you did, with confusion and then coming after me?

[Black]

I feel like Snivy's start to the day tracks with his reads? Unless I'm missing something. Dunn died and he townread Alanis, so he was left with Dannflor. He voted for Dann and then considered you as his partner

[Aureal]

Oh lol, he did vote Dannflor first. I didn't really even make note of it since he didn't actually say anything about him there.

Meh

VOTE: Abnegation

[meowmeow]

hi - not feeling super great rn but hopefully will be back to normal soonish

meow can you elaborate on your Snivy scumread

i thought i had already but sure

the first thing that caught my eye was the "sheeping T3's poe" thing which i thought came off as super unnatural - i didn't really get the sense that snivy thought t3 was worth sheeping in general, and he shouldn't have been drifting enough to want to sheep there given the general confidence he was expressing in his reads. to me he was making a point of sheeping a conftown in a way i thought was supposed to get him townread


i think mafia would know the setup, since at the start of the game they get their roles - rb or no rb - and almost always talk about what that means. mafia also need to know for pr hunting. snivy's claims that dumbslips are nai fall kind of flat to me - i think if he wanted to know the setup, it wouldn't be super hard to look rather than post something like 805, and newd3 does also have tracker + doc. to me it does just like he's trying to be like "i don't know the setup so i'm town" - it just does feel performative to me.

i do also think his confidence on the iavh read is overstated. to give an example of what i mean, since it was being argued earlier - please take a look at this game. i'm publicly an alt of ausuka, to be clear. in this game, i defend enchant a lot on d1, even going so far as to call him 'hard town' and generally like digging into that position. gimli calls me out for this at some point and says my read on enchant is tmi. and he's right - in that game, i genuinely *did* think enchant was pretty towny and the pushes on him were bad and he looked more like his town meta. but given what he had done at that point, there is no way town!me calls him 'hard town' or defends him the way i did in a million years. i wanted to overstate my confidence there because if i soft defended enchant, even though that'd be more realistic, i knew i could be called out for it later. anyway, i do think snivy's confidence and insistence on town iavh is off and he's overplaying it.

i also think the aureal read, having flipped from d1, is bad. like aureal was voting snivy on d1 anyway, it wasn't some sort of new thing. happy immediately coming to a 'solve' of aureal and dann, when he wasn't particularly suspicious of either before, is just... not great. sometimes the simple explanation is just correct.

it would be one thing if this was a game which i felt had like a lot of scum options - i'm not sure i feel that way. iavh and dann are the only people i find it like easy to envision flipping red here - not that anyone else is impossible, but i really don't think i'm going to vote there today - and i don't think iavh and dann are partnered

[meowmeow]

i mean dann/aureal comes off as plausible to me associative wise

i'm just not especially convinced aureal is scum independently so it doesn't feel worth biting on

[Ircher]

Prodding Dannflor (1d 16h), camelCasedSnivy (1d 11h), and Abnegation (1d 10h). They have (expired on 2023-10-08 07:30:00) to respond in-thread before I seek a replacement.

[Black]

I'm going to be a bit busy this weekend, just a heads up

[camelCasedSnivy]

oh my bad

this game is going kinda slow, yall wanna conslidate on me/dann/aureal?