Mini Normal 2316 | Halloween | Endgame

[Roden]

n the mean time, can I get a quick summary of why Wartortle has so many votes

371
416
556

And python's vote is unexplained

I like Shea's read here, I didn't think of the possibility that Wartortle was an alt. I don't think inconsistent behavior is necessarily scum-indicative though.

An alt pretending to be inexperienced isn't scum-indicative either, since I've done the same on an alt before when rolling town.

[Black]

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

I was assuming your vote was based on the first 15 pages, but if you checked the most recent vote count and voted accordingly then that kinda feels weird to me. Why not wait until you have read the other half of the game before voting? Like I can see town motivation for wanting to check the vote count I guess but it also feels a little slimy

If you are scum and Wartortle is town, he's a much better pocket target than Naerys imo. He seems to put more thought into the game than she does and I think having him townread you back would be more beneficial to you than Naerys TRing you

If you are both scum then I agree some theatre would be a good play, but it's not the only play. You being the 5th vote on his wagon would almost certainly be his demise, whereas now you have brought the wagons much closer together

[AnimatedWiz]

Not getting amazing vibes from Roden’s catch-up, but I’ll have to provide details later this morning.

Sorry, work turned out to be extremely hectic today, so it took a bit longer for me to look over the catch-up again and see what was pinging me.

The main thing I was that Roden only caught up to page 15, and I thought it was suspicious for him to only read up to around when public opinion on the slot started to shift and people started questioning him… but upon checking out page 15, I realized that’s right after when Roden replaced into the game, so that argument is out the window.

I still think the slot is scum, but I don’t think any of the actual reads (minus one) or the fact they’re based on the first 15 pages is anything too alignment-indicative to me on their own.

However, I do feel like there’s a real possibility of Roden trying to push/bus Naerys here. While I do think Naerys is scummy, I find it suspicious that the his Naerys read seemed far tamer than his OWER read, but she still earned his vote.

P.E.: I do think Black’s point about Roden’s vote being based on the most recent VC is notable, because that is really odd. If you’re planning to not read up until night phase, it’s not reasonable to vote based on something out of context like a later VC.

[AnimatedWiz]

Also, I’d like to say that my scumread on Naerys is has softened a bit when I think more critically about her ISO and the context—I do think my initial vibe-based scumread was valid, but I think I was sort of reaching about the pocketing attempt. That theory certainly could be the case, but upon rereading the evidence was not enough to build my push on. Her later posts still give me scum vibes, especially how she flip-flops on people (especially on me in these)—I just feel like other slots have more damning evidence at this point, especially since they’ve posted a lot more stuff with bad vibes.

Still a solid scumlean, but I’d prefer to eliminate OWER or Roden over her right now (maybe Wartortle too).

[Hu Tao]

I suppose that's a fair read

[SmileyDude1]

Been thinking about this for a while. UNVOTE: Naerys

I think i managed to confuse myself lol

This seems to be in reference to my 592 and I feel somewhat inclined to believe that scum wouldn't outright respond this way towards my inquiry. Feel like scum would be better off electing to continue to not address it at all if they didn't have a response there (especially given I haven't really been the loudest voice in this game so far). The more I think about it, the more I could see Naerys behavior coming from impulsive town rather than scum.

I'm not sold on Naerys!scum but I think if Wartortle flips red then she could be a partner. Her putting Wartortle at the bottom of her readslist and then forgetting that she thinks he could be scum makes me feel like the read may have not been real. She didn't respond to my post asking her to join the Wartortle wagon and doesn't seem to be interested in voting there at all despite scumreading him. Like OWER mentioned I kinda want to give her the benefit of the doubt with the surgery and tiredness though

I've never played with Naerys but she's giving more LHF vibes than anything, and I don't mean that as an insult in any way. I think some players are just more likely to be pushed than others

didn't i push naerys tho

Not really no. You voted for Naerys in your 457, but I looked through your ISO after that post and you don't really do anything to further the push on Naerys. There's no casing on your end, nor do you really interact with other cases. You maintain the scumread in your 533 but I get the vibe that you were taking a back seat in regards to actually pressuring the slot.


I was keeping an eye out for how you handled the Naerys Case after I noted earlier how you didn't really progress your Hold Case earlier in my 447, and I'm seeing the same pattern here with not following through on your pushes. Right now, I think TSQ was right in their assessment of you in 371.

VOTE: Wartortle

[SmileyDude1]

E-2

[usesPython]

676/677 feel like they'll be relevant later

[usesPython]

I don't think Roden is scum here and 676/677 feel like they're setting up some weird pre-flip shading for an eventual justification to hop on a Roden wagon

[Black]

I'm not sure why you interpret my post as shading. I was elaborating on my opportunism read since Roden didn't understand it. I don't need any extra justification to "hop on a Roden wagon." I've been pretty transparent with my DE/Roden read

[usesPython]

I'm not sure why you interpret my post as shading. I was elaborating on my opportunism read since Roden didn't understand it. I don't need any extra justification to "hop on a Roden wagon." I've been pretty transparent with my DE/Roden read

I think it's more that the post feels like you're already posturing for a Roden wagon after a Wartle flip. We probably wouldn't have a problem with the post if you were voting for literally anyone else at the time but the "Here's why it's good for scum!Roden regardless of what Wartle flips" when you're actively voting for wartle feels ick

[Black]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

[Black]

Also how does that logic apply to Annie when Annie has had Roden as his top SR and isn't even voting for Wartortle?

[usesPython]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

The context of how you got to that convo is fine, it's the vibe when you're giving the read that's off

[usesPython]

Also how does that logic apply to Annie when Annie has had Roden as his top SR and isn't even voting for Wartortle?

For Wiz it's the Roden/Naerys preflip that we have a problem with

[Black]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

The context of how you got to that convo is fine, it's the vibe when you're giving the read that's off

The vibe that I think Roden could be scum? My posts should have given you that vibe long before that one

[usesPython]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

The context of how you got to that convo is fine, it's the vibe when you're giving the read that's off

Like the way you talk about wartles alignment feels aggressively neutral for someone that's your top scumread

[Black]

Why are you ignoring the context? Roden gave his opinion on what his best play as scum would be depending on Wartortle's alignment. I didn't really agree with his logic in the WIFOM and responded accordingly

The context of how you got to that convo is fine, it's the vibe when you're giving the read that's off

Like the way you talk about wartles alignment feels aggressively neutral for someone that's your top scumread

I just don't understand this. It really feels like you are ignoring the context. Roden and I were both speaking in a hypothetical scum!Roden world and discussing his play based on a town and scum Wartortle

[usesPython]

I just don't understand this. It really feels like you are ignoring the context. Roden and I were both speaking in a hypothetical scum!Roden world and discussing his play based on a town and scum Wartortle

I don't think I'm good at explaining out there vibe reads. It doesn't feel like you have any sort of emotional attachment to your wartle read in that post. idk how to explain it better

[usesPython]

Kinda hoping we're wrong and one of us get shot before we have to look into this any further

[Roden]

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

I was assuming your vote was based on the first 15 pages, but if you checked the most recent vote count and voted accordingly then that kinda feels weird to me. Why not wait until you have read the other half of the game before voting? Like I can see town motivation for wanting to check the vote count I guess but it also feels a little slimy

If you are scum and Wartortle is town, he's a much better pocket target than Naerys imo. He seems to put more thought into the game than she does and I think having him townread you back would be more beneficial to you than Naerys TRing you

If you are both scum then I agree some theatre would be a good play, but it's not the only play. You being the 5th vote on his wagon would almost certainly be his demise, whereas now you have brought the wagons much closer together

You're...scum reading me for checking the VC?

Do I really need to explain why I would need to check the latest VC before making a vote? I don't want my vote on one of my town reads, and I don't want to accidentally hammer a player or even put them at E-1 without intent.

Also, why would I vote later after reading the rest of the game? I explicitly said I was going to go off of the information I had from the first 15 pages and play in the present, and then read the rest during the night phase. There is no "voting later", especially when the vote deadline is so close.

What makes you think I’m trying to pocket a town!Wartortle? I haven't even interacted with him, not even when he quoted me. I haven't done anything to influence him in particular to town read me, so this accusation feels off.

Yes, being the 5th vote on Wartortle would almost certainly be his demise...which is why I said I would vote him if we were both scum. I'm not sure what your argument is here.

Kinda feels like you're working backwards from your scum read on me to look for reasons to justify it here.

[Black]

I don't really have an emotional attachment to my Wartortle SR. Like I still think he could flip town. Even if I did I wouldn't expect it to be super transparent in a hypothetical like that

I think this vibe read is probably genuine from you

[Black]

You're...scum reading me for checking the VC?

Do I really need to explain why I would need to check the latest VC before making a vote? I don't want my vote on one of my town reads, and I don't want to accidentally hammer a player or even put them at E-1 without intent

It was the fact that you checked the VC and decided to vote for Naerys when to me it felt like your OWER SR was stronger. You say you don't really want to start a new wagon but I can't help that it felt a little opportunistic

Also, why would I vote later after reading the rest of the game? I explicitly said I was going to go off of the information I had from the first 15 pages and play in the present, and then read the rest during the night phase. There is no "voting later", especially when the vote deadline is so close

I actually missed the part where you said you would catch up with the rest at Night

What makes you think I’m trying to pocket a town!Wartortle? I haven't even interacted with him, not even when he quoted me. I haven't done anything to influence him in particular to town read me, so this accusation feels off

I don't really think you're trying to pocket him but if you are scum and he's town then that's my best guess as to why you would TR him here. I don't think a pocket attempt has to involve a lot of interactions. I think a slight defense of the slot plus a townread is enough to make a town player think "hm maybe they are town since they're right about me"

Yes, being the 5th vote on Wartortle would almost certainly be his demise...which is why I said I would vote him if we were both scum. I'm not sure what your argument is here

I think scum like to try and pseudo-bus D1 instead of full sending it. A distancing type thing. Voting him here wouldn't be that great of a play if you are both scum imo when you could just as easily make Naerys an equally possible fade

Kinda feels like you're working backwards from your scum read on me to look for reasons to justify it here

It could be a little conf bias, sure. I'll reevaluate at some point

[Naerys]

Well, large boulder with number 244 is finally off my shoulders.
Looking at the timer here, we should try to consolidate on a elim.

[Black]

Well, large boulder with number 244 is finally off my shoulders.
Looking at the timer here, we should try to consolidate on a elim.

Feel free to put Wartortle at E-1