Mini Normal 2317 - Postgame

[KeyLaga]

I'm surprised there's an IC in this game, so Scum is probably packing heat?

VOTE: KeyLaga

Hey Random great recent game as JK! Played scum like a fiddle! Can you please go into more detail on how IC is connected to more heat for scum? Thanks!

[KeyLaga]

@Bingle Mustn't that be said for every game of Mafia?

[KeyLaga]

Btw, I don't think Bingle's #13 has a town mindset:

VOTE: Bingle

[KeyLaga]

@Elements I am doubting you are so Informed?

[KeyLaga]

@Elements: Ok let me rephrase this: Are you saying that you are informed that the IC is Macho?

[KeyLaga]

VOTE: KeyLaga
Pretty sure Elements is trolling and Key taking the bait isn’t great.

And so you wish to assume his intentions and protect him? Why?

[KeyLaga]

I feel like scum are more likely to take such things at face value

What about scum proposing it in the first place?

[KeyLaga]

@Elements: I asked you at least one question. Why do you think Gamma is protecting you btw?

[KeyLaga]

And your explanation for being Informed?

[KeyLaga]

@Gamma: Sounds like he is possibly rolefishing to me.

[KeyLaga]

I can understand the scum WIFOM completely however and I am sure Celeb knows what they are doing. : shrug :

[KeyLaga]

@Elements: Sorry never played before with you ma'am, completely unintentional.

[KeyLaga]

Celebloki sus

lol

I'm locktowning mayhemthrone Organized Khaos + OutWorldER

You realize that giving townreads is not very impressive, right?

[KeyLaga]

@Eiralox: I agree with Naer, its ott.

[KeyLaga]

@Kitty: Do you think that the scum are Informed's too?

[KeyLaga]

@Bingle: Wow thanks! This is excellent info.

I think I will move here: VOTE: Eira

[KeyLaga]

@Bingle: Wow thanks! This is excellent info.

I think I will move here: VOTE: Eira

Please enlighten us as to why

Why are you trying to impress so hard with "locktown" on so many people?

[KeyLaga]

Hmmm... I think I just got it but I will let you respond to clear the air... : facepalm :

[KeyLaga]

Actually nvm!

VOTE: Unvote

I am not of a mind to vote Elements and find no place to put my vote atm.

[KeyLaga]

I townlock Celeb however! XD

[KeyLaga]

*gives Celeb a bottle of milk*

[KeyLaga]

@ Gamma:

@Khaos: Your thoughts on the game so far?

[KeyLaga]

@Gamma: What do you think about Bingle at this point?

@Gamma: What do you think about Bingle at this point?

I thought it sounded like scum speaking in the "we" as opposed to the town "we" (yes, tenuous at best). But then he revealed he is a game designer and I realized there was no way he could scum-slip there.

@Gamma: What do you think about Bingle at this point?

[KeyLaga]

Oh wow I messed that one up! My quote was supposed to be of Outworlder sorry.

Looks like I triple asked Gamma about Bingle XD

[KeyLaga]

LOL Elements!

[KeyLaga]

@ Khaos: How many scum do you think we have?

[KeyLaga]

From my perspective, he has far to firm of a grasp on this game and I was very aware that my "tone/mindset" case was very weak, to the point of almost being unsupportable.

[KeyLaga]

@Out: I guess you don't have meta on Elements, huh?

[KeyLaga]

@Out I can tell you with 100% certainty why he townlocked those players.

[KeyLaga]

Ok and I apologize, she.

[KeyLaga]

I will join with Gamma on Bingle, I also am awonder at his latest query.

VOTE: Bingle

[KeyLaga]

@Out: I would suggest you query Bingle about that scenario?

[KeyLaga]

Btw just in case its not blatantly obvious, even if we know Bingle is scum, lets not end the day this early, NO ACCIDENTAL HAMMERS, ok?

[KeyLaga]

Bingle wagon grows quickly. The question is why, though. I dont feel as if anything Bingle said would indicate that he is scum.

From my perspective, the Informed issue had already been covered with its attendant rolefishing risk but he brought it up again and in a very specific way -- there is definitely a scum motivation to be found there.

[KeyLaga]

RE: Elements.

[KeyLaga]

Also I don't feel comfortable asking Bingle to claim at this point either, so even if he does hit L-2, I don't think claiming is appropriate.

[KeyLaga]

Right, I don't think its about #13 anymore (not for me anyway)
Now its going to be all about #64
The only thing sincere I see in that post is rolefishing.

[KeyLaga]

Ok, Mr. Bingle, I need to explain that post is not as it appears. That post is only about my original vote for you, which I dropped.

[KeyLaga]

I am two because there are several things I have in mind and I know she has more than one thing as well. I would like to know if we are both seeing the same things.

[KeyLaga]

Sorry Mod there is an error in the VC you have Gamma voting twice; unless this is by design!?

Fixed.

- Alianna

[KeyLaga]

Why did you explicitly ask Elements to confirm his role by the Mod?
Why did you feign difficulty with the Wiki?

[KeyLaga]

Sorry *HER role.

[KeyLaga]

Yes but this is just a sneaky way to hide your real intention -- it is not to just "find out what the flip is" like you make it sound; like its an issue of administration.

[KeyLaga]

Sorry I was at work, got a call and had to cut my post short.

I would imagine you have a gated Strongman and you don't want to waste a shot on the IC if you don't have to. That was your real intention and you made it seem like it was just about Element's flip.

[KeyLaga]

As far as stating there are 12 people in the playerlist, I think that would be a convenient slip from the scum PT where you have already factored in the death of the IC.

[KeyLaga]

The IC is going to die, the only question is how: Goon or Strongman.

[KeyLaga]

Perhaps Binge forgot to count himself?

Why didn't he just say that then?

[KeyLaga]

Man Bingle himself might just flip as the 2-shot Strongman.

[KeyLaga]

Just a guess on the gating, like 1 is to weak and 3 is too strong?

[KeyLaga]

I'm surprised there's an IC in this game, so Scum is probably packing heat?

VOTE: KeyLaga

Wdym? IC is actually a very weak role in the wider spectrum of things. Basically the only thing we can deduce there is that there’s some method of kill prevention but that it’s not foolproof.

Well… there’s a lot of other minor considerations, but that’s the one that’s most likely to be relevant.

I'm informed and my info is there's no method of kill prevention

, it's just setup wifom for scum

So the bolded underlined, you are not referring to Celeb but to the town having no protective roles?

[KeyLaga]

Holy crap, that's L-1!

VOTE: Unvote

Believe me I want him to lim but no way I want the day to end right now and besides he is mobile and hasn't finished talking.

[KeyLaga]

Not to mention Elements needs to clarify his Informed and based on that I have to re-think...

[KeyLaga]

INTENTION TO RETURN BINGLE TO L-1

[KeyLaga]

The town, you?

[KeyLaga]

Just so you know "performing" has an interpretation equal to "functioning", I know not the way you meant it but its the way I mean it.

[KeyLaga]

Hmmm, I was wondering who the third scum was...

[KeyLaga]

My apologies I don't know why I keep saying "him" clearly its her I know this and I am sure I will get over it.

[KeyLaga]

VOTE: Vote Bingle

[KeyLaga]

Not to mention Elements needs to clarify THEIR Informed and based on that I have to re-think...

No I don't

I can understand this.
The Wine is strong with this one.
So, if the scum don't have a Strongman, then there is no way to protect the IC and this point is moot, the IC will simply die.
You do realize that you are WIFOM-ing both scum AND town, right?

[KeyLaga]

@Elements: Ma'am, could you please describe your case for Bingle, since you were just voting for them?

[KeyLaga]

@Flavor: Same.

[KeyLaga]

Don't feel like winning either?

[KeyLaga]

You know we don't have to be adversaries, we CAN work together on this, you know?

[KeyLaga]

I feel like my vote reasons were obvious

I don't doubt they were obvious to you but nobody here can read your mind.

Furthermore, I may or may not have a valid case against Bingle, which could or could not be dependent upon Element's application of her role; she is playing the WIFOM very strongly.

Maybe you can help me with this dilemma? This is why I asked for your case.

[KeyLaga]

Well this is quite the pickle then. I'll just hang out and wait around.

[KeyLaga]

I like you in 245 but I am not going to talk about it of course.

[KeyLaga]

Time for a smoke break while I mull this whole thing over.

[KeyLaga]

Oops sorry.

[KeyLaga]

@Flavor: "The town has no protective roles" -- does this sound like more of a scum informed than a town informed to you?

[KeyLaga]

Regardless, the scum have no reason to seek out the status of the IC, because they have no Strongman.
VOTE: Unvote

[KeyLaga]

@ Khaos: How many scum do you think we have?

2-4

May I ask how you arrived at this range of figures?

[KeyLaga]

Well, as with every other player except Celeb, I am wondering about your alignment. Good answer though and thank you.

[KeyLaga]

@Elements: Are you aware ma'am, that your claimed Inform sounds more like a scum Informed than a town Informed?

[KeyLaga]

To better insure that we have some valid discussion on this point:

VOTE: Elements

[KeyLaga]

lol that's the second time you said that lol

[KeyLaga]

I am very happy with the improved game state, a number of my reads have strengthened because of several excellent exchanges.
I just want to get some things off my chest, off the top of my head.

RE Flavor and his supposed "cooling of the wagon" and ability to "protect Bingle" even though he was at E-1, that is 100% arrogant BS -- however, don't get me wrong, that is no insult to Flavor because if anything is his "signature move" its that (entertaining to boot XD). However, to be clear, the only thing that actually protected Bingle and cooled his wagon was my Unvote; as a side note, Element's wagon lust was also a threat and the only thing protecting against that were my posts about hammering & claiming. Flavor will always read surface scummy and he even admits it in 159 and that is always a problem because as you know he is a very dangerous scum; my take is the longer the game goes with him as scum, the worse it gets for town. My point is that I feel sorting him early is important for town because again he has a "too scummy to be scum" playstyle which is a subtle form of scum coasting. My read on him at this point is scum-Flavor because he is not participating in this game, just wagoning without any explanations. Just thought I would get that out there.

RE Elements and his fakeclaiming Informed(!?), as much as I would like to, I can't hold an outright scum view of this unless someone can provide scum meta where he does such overtly too scummy to be scum things -- clearly that sort of fakeclaiming is the sort that rolefishes town (which actually happened with Kitty) and will be obviously caught; I mean what scum claims Cop D1, thinking its a good idea? -- this is in essence what Elements did. I actually deplore this kind of play but in the hands of an expert player, who am I to question it, the consequences fall upon themselves alone.

RE Bingle now that it is revealed that Elements was fakeclaiming, my case on him rolefishing the IC is just as valid as when I voted him. I perceive his words regarding myself as a pocket attempt. I think the likelihood of a scum gated Strongman as VERY high and I think he fished out Element's claim to verify if the Strongman would be required for Celeb's kill, while pretending his only concern was just how Elements would flip (whether the Informed would show) -- notice that if Elements confirms this he Mod confirms his stated role and scum knows they will need to use the Strongman for the IC kill.

RE Gamma: I have to give her credit for at least taking stances and voting them but her logic as a whole I have disagreed with as Outworlder & Bingle have also pointed out. The one case I agree with is on myself. I have explained that I feared Elements was rolefishing the IC and backed down once I had time to think more about it but the actual case she brought is valid and is probably the strongest case I have seen any player make so far this game. I can't really say that she is scum here and at best I have to say weak town and the truth of how I feel is probably somewhere in between.

RE Khaos I agree with Out's take on 90 & 147 which is why I continued to prod this slot. This is the second best case I have seen this game but I will choose to watch from the sidelines because though unpopular, I must vote Bingle for rolefishing the IC.

VOTE: Bingle

I may have missed some things I wanted to say, so I will be re-reading to catch anything I forgot.

[KeyLaga]

*they will NOT need to use the Strongman

[KeyLaga]

Please don't Modkill me! Elements is ALWAYS She!

[KeyLaga]

Ok I feel like maybe people don't understand my case against Beagle. I will start from the top.

The scum see an IC and the first thing they want to do is kill it because it is Mod confirmed town; i.e. the more the town knows the alignment of other town players, the closer they are to identifying scum. Because the scum want and need to kill the IC, it is possible to identify them if they should reveal this desire in the game thread.

Suddenly a player claims that there are no protective roles in the town! So how do the scum see this? Well this is slightly complicated but an IC that is unkillable is practically a game breaking role for town and so the Mod, in order to balance the game, has to factor in a way to allow the scum to kill the IC. How? A Strongman which can bypass the protection of a town Doc.

So, back to our story, the scum see they have a Strongman but now there is a chance that it won't be needed for the IC kill and this will allow the Strongman to use ALL their shots (the Strongman must be limited [i.e. x number of shots, I guess 2] also for game balance) against suspected power roles! So, this is a HUGE incentive for scum now.

So what happens? Bingle comes up and pushes Element's claim that there are no power roles AGAIN, even though I had already sorted it, alerting the IC not to claim anything. So what is his motivation then? Well, it must be the gated Strongman theory -- if the scum can confirm that there is no town protection, the Strongman is free to kill elsewhere, rather than waste a shot on the IC.

Its also scummy HOW Bingle queried elements, literally just trying to play it off that all he was interested in was how Elements would flip,

if his Informed would show

and he made it all casual too. The fact is that he is subtly asking Elements to Mod confirm his stated role which then ALSO confirms that no Strongman is needed for the IC kill.

I hope this makes everything clearer and people don't discount the effective power of hunting scum through the IC because they are HIGHLY motivated to kill them.

PS Not only do I think Bingle is trying to pocket me but at the same time subtly discredit my case by calling it "ridiculous" -- ya it tracks that caught scum would say that too.

[KeyLaga]

OMGOSH! I can't believe I did it again! Elements is She! I gotta do something like remember "beautiful female salamander" or something... >.<

[KeyLaga]

Ok maybe it will help if I talk it out: I see Elements, as beautiful as she is, as excessively aggressive which is very typically a male trait that that perception struck deep into my subconscious and just as they say, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression, well dangit I'm stuck with it. I think I have gone through enough pain on this to bring it to the surface: the NAME Elements and the ICON Salamander are FEMALE.

Gosh that should do it, [gulp].

[KeyLaga]

Celeb

-- Mod conf town

Elements

-- conditional town based on MASSIVELY too scummy to be scum

Random

-- Natural RVS entry & analysis of the game state, willing to RVS wagon; not a lot of input but I get towny vibes so far, weak town.

Kitty

-- Great RVS entry, defends me & suspects Elements but claims Informed which is a town-oriented role, strong town

Outworlder

-- RVS entrance explosive, sincere querying of existing wagons/players, posits game theory of Bingle-scum, suspects Favor; fearless & strong town

Naer

-- defends myself & Gamma, communicates; not enough to call town but I will say null-town for desire to take stances

Gamma

-- attacks me and Bingle, definitely taking stances and voting but logic on cases not tracking so null-town

Eiralox

-- very little input and no actual game actions, this will be scummy as the Day progresses but can only be NULL for now

Bingle

-- scum for rolefishing the IC

Flavor Leaf

-- Wagoning without cases, not giving reads nor reasoning, unhelpful to town, scum coasting; scum

Organized Khaos

-- posts as lost scum, apparently wagons without reasoning, not much to go on; weak scum

mayhemthrone

is now officially lurking (in my book).

[KeyLaga]

Obviously the above list is a massive summary of each player, I am able to flesh out any of these reads, just ask.

[KeyLaga]

@Kitty: You said that the scum knows there is TP, is that also explicitly stated as the Informed part of your role?

[KeyLaga]

@Elements (you beauiful female salamander) Do you have scum-meta on Bingle? I get the feeling that he is experienced & confident scum, being quite relaxed in the alignment?

[KeyLaga]

Previous VC:

1.06
Votecount 1.06

Gamma Emerald (3): Naerys, Bingle, Elements
Elements (3): OutWorldER, KeyLaga, KittyTacky
Bingle (2): Random Nurse, Organized Khaos
KeyLaga (2): Flavor Leaf, Gamma Emerald
KittyTacky (1): Celebloki

Not Voting (2): mayhemthrone, Eiralox

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in 9 days, 4 hours, 7 minutes.

[KeyLaga]

The following actions were taken:

Kitty: Unvotes
Celeb: Unvotes, Votes Flavor
Out: Unvotes, Votes Khaos
Key: Votes Bingle
Gamma: Unvotes

Generating new VC...

[KeyLaga]

Gamma Emerald (3): Naerys, Bingle, Elements
Bingle (3): Random Nurse, Organized Khaos, Key
KeyLaga (2): Flavor Leaf
KittyTacky (1):
Flavor Leaf (1): Celeb
Khaos (1): Out
Not Voting (2): mayhemthrone, Eiralox, Kitty, Gamma Emerald

Done and assumed 100% accurate, mechanical method for accuracy applied.

[KeyLaga]

Gamma Emerald (3): Naerys, Bingle, Elements
Bingle (3): Random Nurse, Organized Khaos, Key
KeyLaga (1): Flavor Leaf
Flavor Leaf (1): Celeb
Khaos (1): Out
Not Voting (2): mayhemthrone, Eiralox, Kitty, Gamma Emerald

Revised due to human error (of course) >.<

[KeyLaga]

Yes I am, if you are town (which I suspect) I am eager to help so you can catch scum, if you are scum I am eager to help so you might scumslip for me?

[KeyLaga]

lol

[KeyLaga]

Btw the proper VC is now posted top, please use it, it has flashy colors and accuracy and everything! xoxoxox

[KeyLaga]

Shame Flavor leaves us, but in that short while his slot felt towny.

I agree that the only scummy things he did, he would do as either alignment. Its his person I feel I need to deal with harshly because he is such a threat if he's scum; its the other side, if he's town we have experienced a great loss.

[KeyLaga]

Pretty sure he does it as scum too, right?

I am definitely looking forward to the replacement and will hold the slot null since Flavor is such a strong personality.

[KeyLaga]

Wow, well noted Naer! That will help me in the future, thanks!

[KeyLaga]

Shut up!

[KeyLaga]

(better?)

[KeyLaga]

Well ma'am, I did ask you for meta for Bingle?

[KeyLaga]

Ya me neither. She RVS voted you tho. I only show her defending me from you. oops sorry.

[KeyLaga]

The read on the slot is the same, as I encounter her in more games, I get the feeling she is kind of a communicative background player; with as much experience as she has, I think she can make more cases?

[KeyLaga]

UPDATE: Flavor moved to null, Eira moved to weak scum for UTR behavior.

[KeyLaga]

"I'm caught up but I can't recall"? Oh ya sure.

[KeyLaga]

Please explain to me how we are to expect this to change as the thread and knowledge base grows?

[KeyLaga]

@Khaos: Why not make a player list with what you think about each player?

[KeyLaga]

(or if you prefer make a list of your top 3-4 players)

[KeyLaga]

This is true but the truth is, even though it is D1, it is no excuse for trying one's best to generate reads on players & try to figure out who is scum. One should be able to communicate something about what they think about various game events, interactions and players, even on D1, right?

[KeyLaga]

@Naer: I know that you are aware of this and can prove it. If I were to ask you: What do you think about Bingle vs. Gamma, what would you say?

[KeyLaga]

Yes and Bingle is accusing her of disingenuous scum casing, all of this means that we all need to keep an eye on Gamma, huh?

[KeyLaga]

@Khaos: Dewd! There is!!!

Look down below the reply box and you will see the Isolate Users dropdown box, you can choose whom you wish to isolate and even open in a new tab by using CTRL-click on the GO button.

[KeyLaga]

@Kitty: Your analysis is quite scary! Could it even be possible that Elements is scum because they knew the town had multiple informed roles and that's how they learned about it?? Man, that is really frightening if true but its like you are saying its simple: Elements knew about the Informeds because he is scum and therefore it is no coincidence at all, eh?

[KeyLaga]

Btw that "Informed" claim was scummy too -- who needs to know more that "the town has no protection roles", the scum right?? Funniest thing though, she was counter-claimed by yourself! Does this make Elements the original rolefisher after all!? I mean is it like the scum are asking: "Btw, town, do you have any protection roles?" which is what I thought originally.

This is kind of difficult to think through, she is skating by simply because "scum wouldn't do something so obvious because they would get caught" and yet I am giving her a pass for exactly that same reason!

PEDIT: Dangit I did it again! I'm gonna get replaced out at this rate >.<

[KeyLaga]

SANITY CHECK!

Thank you Kitty for helping me to be sane: The Scum Know We Have Protection Roles

This destroys my case on Bingle and I never have to revisit it again (that case is over).

Now one last thing to cover before I re-group afresh...

[KeyLaga]

@Kitty: For my game-long sanity, could please expound on your statement that you only wished to "inform the IC's play":

Oh and Mafia knows that there is a protective so I didn't ruin any possible play, I only helped inform (no pun intended) the IC's play.

[KeyLaga]

Anyone familiar with LAL?

Its a classic Mafia theory which means: Lim All Liars

It is a theory because liars are more probable to be scum than not & because when enforced as a site meta, it discourages such behavior. It is also well known in the various Mafia guides that lying about one's role as town is discouraged because it causes doubt and confusion in the town and is very likely to backfire.

So the question is: Should we run Elements up here under LAL?

VOTE: Unvote

[KeyLaga]

I guess the answer is no, its impossible for scum to pull a move like that, its like saying there is no Cop; its scum suicide. What could possibly be the benefit of risking it...

OMGOSH.

Ok, I am going to start a wagon and I want people to think about it and if there is any deeper meaning to being Informed.

I think the scum noticed something about the Informed theme and I think Nurse knows what it is.

VOTE: Elements

I think there is something deeper the scum were willing to risk for and if what I am saying makes sense, I think they should pay with one of their own.

[KeyLaga]

I think she decided to take one for the team, believing that she could just play it off as "scum hunting". If I am right, it almost worked too (at least on me).

[KeyLaga]

Sorry, I have to reply to this because clearly we are seeing things differently:

KL also doesn't really get any cred for the unvote/vote/unvote bit wrt my wagon dissipating, for largely the same reason.

Your wagon dissipated AFTER I unvoted and so I do get credit there, at least for protecting you; we both have seen accidental hammers and how easily they can occur.

KL was pushing me, got worried they might be wrong, freaked out

At no point did that happen. I received resistance from Flavor after I unvoted, he would not discuss anything with me and so I simply took a smoke break and rethought some things about Elements' "claim".

Well I would like to learn scum hunting tips from you (and anyone for that matter), I seem to perceive that you have quite the reputation, especially when under pressure.

I think where we can work together, is to realize that Elements' actions have had a negative effect upon this town and that we can re-group and start nailing scum like skeet shots.

[KeyLaga]

Anyone familiar with LAL?

Policy lims are a measure of last resort. We are no where near resorting to a policy lim this phase.

I understand your perspective. Feel free to read all of my posts surrounding this wagon to learn more of my mindset. Its not necessarily alignment indicative to disagree with this wagon.

[KeyLaga]

I think where we can work together, is to realize that Elements' actions have had a negative effect upon this town and that we can re-group and start nailing scum like skeet shots.

What negative effects?

For one, I have wasted a lot of time on a Bingle case that had no basis in reality and was singly cause by your fakeclaiming. Assuming that Bingle is town, this has interfered with our interactions in a negative way.

Secondly, your fakeclaim has outed an Informed townsperson, which is all I am going to say about that.

[KeyLaga]

I've gotten 3 townreads out of it

Town reads are less than a dime a dozen when the informed minority know them all.

The informed claimed info the mafia already knew, and could also just be scum claiming the info they know.

In that case you'd better get a counter wagon started pronto! Get everyone lined up for the VCA.

[KeyLaga]

Oh and Mafia knows that there is a protective so I didn't ruin any possible play, I only helped inform (no pun intended) the IC's play.

And I'm assuming kitty was going to claim his information at some point anyway

I doubt it but you'd have to ask him. I think he's smarter than that -- a lot smarter would be my guess.

[KeyLaga]

Your wagon dissipated AFTER I unvoted

True, but it doesn't make you town. Scum you would just as easily have realized the wagon wasn't going to hit elimination and bailed. As far as a qh being a threat there... I was precisely 0% worried about that.

I am not saying I am town for unvoting. I am simply saying unvoting was the best thing for the town because you were mobile and had not responded AND the day was very early and its rarely good to end days like that, especially D1, right?

L-1 is always a threat period, its undeniable.

[KeyLaga]

Why is not outing that info smart?

I think you know already. I am willing to say I know you know, in fact.

[KeyLaga]

Why is not outing that info smart?

I think you know already. I am willing to say I know you know, in fact.

It's something scum know, why would you not tell town?

WOW! The scum know this?? I THINK MOST CERTAINLY NOT! Why do I think this? Because here you are trying to justify your actions.

Then town aren't on the back foot and it tells the tp that crumbing in dangerous as scum could be looking out for it

I am certainly willing to have an actual conversation with you but I can't quite figure out what you mean by this last quote if you could please re-phrase it somehow?

[KeyLaga]

I see no downside

Well, I have to say that I don't believe you, otherwise I have no reasonable and practical explanation for your actions.

[KeyLaga]

Sure. I am sorry, I am not trying to derail this thread. To begin with, I see the scum solidly in Elements. I ask you Gamma, what are the chances that Town-Elements just happened to fakeclaim Informed in an Informed themed game?

I ask because this is what Elements is asking all of us (who are town) to believe that she just accidentally claimed Informed.

Anyway, that's the beginning foundation of my scum case on Elements. Who do you think are scum?

[KeyLaga]

Traitor. This role is allowed in Complex Normal games.

[KeyLaga]

Snip

Oh, I understood your case. I just didn't give it the time of day.

It relies on a few presumptions:

Ele is town.
KT's claim about being informed that scum know there is a protective is a lie, and therefore KT is scum.

So in order for me to be shopping the viability of non strongman kills on the IC I have to be scum with KT who also decided to risk a potential mechanical 1v1 with a town elements for the same info I was fishing for.

Thank you for this post. I have sincerely enjoyed it. I apologize for being so far behind, its a weakness of mine. Hope we are aligned as town to work together this game.

[KeyLaga]

I'm here but reading the last few pages causes my eyes to glaze over. Why are we trying to lead a policy lim on the first 14 pages of the game?

The policy aspect is just to get the idea across that she lied.

[/quote]re: Elements, I actually think the fake/joke informed claim comes from town here, for reasons I will not divulge. I think it was simply unfortunate for Elements that KT was an actual informed.
[/quote]
I think its more that just unfortunate, I think it was deliberate (what are the chances?).

[KeyLaga]

In other words, I believe the "accidental" fakeclaim came straight from the scum PT.

[KeyLaga]

I am going to wait for Kitty to come back and ask him for advice. I will state my theory once I speak with him.

[KeyLaga]

There is definitely a way scum benefits from this without a doubt IF my theory is correct.

[KeyLaga]

It is even possible that I can name all 3 scum (I am assuming there are 3) after we talk.

[KeyLaga]

Bingle if you are creating a wagon, why not team up with Eira, I notice he is also wanting to start one?

[KeyLaga]

Just a word of advice Chell, I think you will agree (since everyone knows you and thus you must be experienced) that Khaos is definitely lhf and I believe there is a better lim today, with plenty of time left? At least would you agree that wagoning up to a claim would be ill advised atm?

[KeyLaga]

Just a word of advice Chell, I think you will agree (since everyone knows you and thus you must be experienced) that Khaos is definitely lhf and I believe there is a better lim today, with plenty of time left? At least would you agree that wagoning up to a claim would be ill advised atm?

why do you assume every wagon aims for a lim?

I never said that. My concern at this moment is about forcing a claim because this is what (objectively speaking) will hurt the town. Scum want town power roles, claims & mislims. I know that Khaos is lhf and I assume that a claim is the target; remember each claim the town makes, no matter what it is, brings the scum closer to the town power roles.

I know how mafia is played, I am saying at this moment if we could just exercise some caution with Khaos, like L-2 and just not force a claim yet?

[KeyLaga]

Khaos is definitely lhf

can you elaborate on this please

I see little reason for you to be so defensive of that slot.

Khaos is on my scum list, his play has been scummy which I have clearly discussed in thread with Out. However I do not believe he is the best lim for today and forcing his claim, right at this moment, I believe to be anti-town.

[KeyLaga]

have you played with Khaos before?

I have played Werewolf before but certainly not with him. I mean it should be clear why he is lhf, look at his first post after RVS. I mean I have some business to discuss with Kitty and she will be here in about an hour. All I am asking is not to force his claim until after that?

[KeyLaga]

*he will be here in about an hour sorry.
Check his posts from yesterday they are in about an hour and he said he will be back.

[KeyLaga]

I am just putting it out there. Thanks for hearing me.

[KeyLaga]

Its not the slot that matters, its the wagon leading to the claim, it just so happens that is where the wagon is, right at this moment. I don't care where the wagon is, I would say the same thing and would even want to speak with Kitty before doing anything drastic with Elements.

[KeyLaga]

It means: A) Claims hurt town (exceptions noted, just generally speaking in way I already defined it), B) After I speak with Kitty, I will just shut up.

[KeyLaga]

VOTE: Elements

I'm busy this night so I'll catch up and respond to all questions tomorrow.

[KeyLaga]

Just a word of advice Chell, I think you will agree (since everyone knows you and thus you must be experienced) that Khaos is definitely lhf and I believe there is a better lim today, with plenty of time left? At least would you agree that wagoning up to a claim would be ill advised atm?

point to why you believe khaos is town please

I am not necessarily saying that Khaos is town. Its not the slot that even matters.

@Bingle I have not asked nor expected that thread will stop, I have only expressed my concerns which is a force that will cease after I speak with Kitty. I want to have the least possible impact that I can without just remaining silent.

[KeyLaga]

Time for a 20 minute smoke break Doc, I guess you won't be joining me tho? XD

[KeyLaga]

Ok, you need to continue with the 1st 10 pages too right?

Get back to me then, because she effectively came into this thread and claimed Cop.

But that's a discussion for later.

[KeyLaga]

Yessir. I value your input and assistance because I find myself and the game-state in a very precarious position and I believe we need to proceed delicately; I think the solution is with Kitty, I think he knows what needs to be done?

[KeyLaga]

I said EFFECTIVELY. Did you get to the part where she admits she lied after the counter-claim?

[KeyLaga]

Let me ISO to sir.

[KeyLaga]

#20 Fake-Claim
#212 Counter-Claim <<< this was the target

[KeyLaga]

She claimed it was a joke but we all need to remember, she was the FIRST one to "claim" Informed -- this means it came from the scum PT -- if you don't follow that logic, hear me out, I will elucidate.

[KeyLaga]

Furthermore, there is no hint of any joking in her "claim" post because joking was not the intention, the intention was to rolefish a true claim.

[KeyLaga]

This is clearly a Informed themed game and how did she know this when nobody had claimed prior to her? Her confederates received the Informed roles too.
I would adjure you not to dismiss me out of hand, work through the actual logic, confront me with it and I will answer every step.

[KeyLaga]

Do you see, this Informed claim was scum TMI and it was for a specific purpose that benefits scum!

[KeyLaga]

Even if she was joking how do you pull THAT joke when there is no such information -- besides there is scum purpose in the "claim" to which there was no hint of any joke.

[KeyLaga]

Look this is blowing up right now but I wished to discuss this with Kitty (the counter claim) but JUST BY LOGIC ALONE the scum received 1-3 Informed roles, which also informed them and which is why they dared to fakeclaim like that.

[KeyLaga]

Let's quote it. Besides that it is a red herring anyway -- how does she come up with Informed -- its a scum-TMI joke. But I will quote it.

[KeyLaga]

It must be so, you as town had NO way of knowing there were any Informed roles.

[KeyLaga]

You deliberately fakeclaimed a demonstrably false Informed that would be counter-claimed.

[KeyLaga]

I'm surprised there's an IC in this game, so Scum is probably packing heat? <<<< THIS IS KEY INFORMATION, IT DETERMINES THE # OF INFORMED ROLES THE SCUM RECEIVED.

VOTE: KeyLaga

Wdym? IC is actually a very weak role in the wider spectrum of things. Basically the only thing we can deduce there is that there’s some method of kill prevention but that it’s not foolproof.

Well… there’s a lot of other minor considerations, but that’s the one that’s most likely to be relevant.

I'm informed and my info is there's no method of kill prevention, it's just setup wifom for scum

I know that post because I quoted it already in my first case against Bingle. He was serious. She is acting under plausible deniability.

I'm telling you right now, the scum are hunting town power roles.

[KeyLaga]

You deliberately fakeclaimed a demonstrably false Informed that would be counter-claimed.

There is no logic pointing to it definitely being counter claimed

You probably received 2-3 Informed roles and were able to put 2 & 2 together -- besides, what game has an IC with no protection roles?? Are you serious??

[KeyLaga]

Or more properly, no protection roles for the town, is like I don't even, notwithstanding the IC.

[KeyLaga]

Again we are in circles, you had no way, as town, of knowing this was an Informed game and because you were power role heavy (just like Nurse said), you received 2-3 informed roles and realized their connection to power roles, hence your fakeclaim, with plausible deniability intended.

[KeyLaga]

There is no getting out of it, THERE WAS A COUNTER-CLAIM, YOU FISHED A TOWN POWER ROLE.

[KeyLaga]

I'm not trying to convince scum, you can never do that, I am just providing the logical facts all chained together by logic.

[KeyLaga]

You know what I mean, I have already said it many times -- this is an Informed themed game and you as town had NO way of knowing that -- as scum, you received 2 Informed roles and the goon didn't get one. That's why you dared to fakeclaim.

[KeyLaga]

We are supposed to buy that you "oopsed" an Informed claim & were counter-claimed on accident?? NO I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT AND ANYONE OF SOUND MIND SHOULD NOT EITHER.

[KeyLaga]

What so you can rolefish every last power role the town has? My intention was to keep all of this quiet and deal with ONE claim before we burn you with fire.

[KeyLaga]

When scum claim Cop D1, you counter-claim & lim it with fire.

[KeyLaga]

One Informed role for each power role, you know and I figured it out eventually.

[KeyLaga]

Oh good, me vs. you. So I am scum then?

[KeyLaga]

This was supposed to be handled QUIETLY with Kitty and now its all blown up. This was not my intention.

[KeyLaga]

He just didn't show up tonight.

[KeyLaga]

Mafia, the game you love to hate?? XD

[KeyLaga]

Notice, like in the posts that follow, I said EFFECTIVELY -- that word is important because it indicates a similar condition; "as if"

[KeyLaga]

Smoke break, be back in 20.

[KeyLaga]

I believe the scum are: Elements, Bingle & Eira. Within the space of just 5 posts I watch them start derailing the Elements wagon (today in the mid-late afternoon CST); you can watch Eira peel off and try to get a wagon with Celeb and right after that Bingle start with Gamma. When you watch it unfold in the thread, it totally looks like a coordinated scum PT action.

In case I get hammered overnight, I did my best.

[KeyLaga]

Remember if we believe Elements is town then we believe he oopsed an Inform claim in a Informed themed game, where as town he should of had no prior knowledge. Prior knowledge could only have come from one place, the scum PT.

[KeyLaga]

All lims need to start with Elements and go from there.

[KeyLaga]

I really really really tried to avoid all the messiness. Nothing personal you beautiful female salamander -- just playing a very savage game the best I could.

[KeyLaga]

Informed roles = power roles so I don't want to get into that too much, but obviously we are talking about multiple Informs.

[KeyLaga]

2 scum PR's got the Inform, the goon didn't.

[KeyLaga]

Sorry this blew up earlier than I wanted -- its not how I was planning things -- I was just trying to be quiet about everything.

[KeyLaga]

This is a Large with old rules -- no announcement necessary.

[KeyLaga]

If it was mentioned before, obviously there is no case lol.

[KeyLaga]

Kitty is my strongest townread its true.

[KeyLaga]

He is wrong. This is a Large under the old rules. Its OK to ask the Mod for confirmation.

[KeyLaga]

Ya me too. I guess Mod dropped you in here and it all blew up. XD Maybe just the medicine I needed?

[KeyLaga]

@Eira: Since you guys took up all my slots, there is only Khaos, but like I said, he is lhf. I do think you are scum interrogating me right?

[KeyLaga]

Right about now/early tomorrow I would publish an updated reads list; there have been substantial changes from the one I published 24 hours ago.

[KeyLaga]

Btw nice uptick in your activity, you had me convinced you were an utr power role actually.

[KeyLaga]

Before it all blew up, Flavor went to null, you went to weak scum & Elements went to scum -- the too scummy to be scum wine ran out.

[KeyLaga]

Celeb

-- Mod conf town

Elements

-- conditional town based on MASSIVELY too scummy to be scum

Random

-- Natural RVS entry & analysis of the game state, willing to RVS wagon; not a lot of input but I get towny vibes so far, weak town.

Kitty

-- Great RVS entry, defends me & suspects Elements but claims Informed which is a town-oriented role, strong town

Outworlder

-- RVS entrance explosive, sincere querying of existing wagons/players, posits game theory of Bingle-scum, suspects Favor; fearless & strong town

Naer

-- defends myself & Gamma, communicates; not enough to call town but I will say null-town for desire to take stances

Gamma

-- attacks me and Bingle, definitely taking stances and voting but logic on cases not tracking so null-town

Eiralox

-- very little input and no actual game actions, this will be scummy as the Day progresses but can only be NULL for now

Bingle

-- scum for rolefishing the IC

Flavor Leaf

-- Wagoning without cases, not giving reads nor reasoning, unhelpful to town, scum coasting; scum

Organized Khaos

-- posts as lost scum, apparently wagons without reasoning, not much to go on; weak scum

mayhemthrone

is now officially lurking (in my book).

apply the changes to this list which is only a summary; I have detailed reads on every player. Keep in mind this was the first 24 hours of D1. You were scum coasting of course.

[KeyLaga]

I have no hole to dig. I said my peace. Want to mislim me? Will that help you?

[KeyLaga]

LOL you have like NOTHING D1 dewd! I had to actually call you out to get you moving! LOL.

[KeyLaga]

Your iso before I called you out with that terrible post: "I'm all caught up! [wink wink] ... ummm I don't recall" LOL.

[KeyLaga]

I know why you three came out -- I know.

[KeyLaga]

Meh its one thing to know the truth. Its another to convince others to act on it.

[KeyLaga]

I hear you Gamma, my intention was to have that conversation with Kitty -- I can read that Flavor post two ways, where one of them is serious but I didn't understand his post when I first read it. THe question mark means I wanted to query him or at least thought about it:

informed that massclaim can catch scum but setup is balanced, doesn't work if he claims informed(?)

[KeyLaga]

I guess we won't know until the post game thred.