you can be upset that i'm the third person to get mad about being voted but the fact of the matter is, i think i've been rather consistent and i just don't think nareys reason for voting me holds weight.
Being called mafia is not some moral failing and more people need to be reminded to chill out and that it's just a game
Plural | Nameless (They/He) and Alice (She/Her) and C (They/Them) and more
you can be upset that i'm the third person to get mad about being voted but the fact of the matter is, i think i've been rather consistent and i just don't think nareys reason for voting me holds weight.
Do you think Naerys is town?
Plural | Nameless (They/He) and Alice (She/Her) and C (They/Them) and more
you can be upset that i'm the third person to get mad about being voted but the fact of the matter is, i think i've been rather consistent and i just don't think nareys reason for voting me holds weight.
Do you think Naerys is town?
i already said there are posts here that would be surprising to come from scum (especially an inexperienced one) so yes
In post 1036, SmileyDude1 wrote:
I think Black is probs town in regards to the Black/Roden argument. My gut instinct says scum in their position probably don't aggressively start and push a case based largely off of an inconsistency like that day 2, after the case on the day 1 lim got heat for largely doing the same thing. Would need to analyze the Roden side of the argument deeper later to be sure (getting ready for work so I don't have time now), but right now I kind of lean towards Roden not looking worse from this at the very least.
Alright took another look and I think I feel conflicted about the way Roden responded here. I think I feel neutral about the way they responded during the initial back and forth.
I think the point Black makes in the aftermath (1046, 1050) feels compelling to me. When looking it over I originally interpreted 973 as saying Roden can't town bin Black due to them experiencing similar behavior from scum in the past, rather than them actually positing a Black scumread there, though the vote in 975 contradicts that.
Roden, can you elaborate on your Black progression here?
In post 1025, TheHoldSteady wrote:
Where I'm leaning now is probably Roden + Python or Smiley or Black + Python, Smiley, or Outworld? Then I dunno who the third scum would be yet.
Why is Black/Roden SvT?
Good question I still think it's early for s/t posts
alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up
Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN
Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
In post 944, Black wrote:
Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff
Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please
If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd
In post 622, Roden wrote:
Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.
Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.
Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.
Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.
Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.
Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.
Enchant: Pass.
Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.
Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.
OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.
Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.
Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.
Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.
Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons
Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE
Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here
Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the
reasoning
she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.
I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.
As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.
Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.
In post 777, Roden wrote:
For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.
The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered
almost entirely in defense of himself
is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.
These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.
The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:
I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
First of all...rude
Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?
Who are you voting
You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town
I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade
It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?
In post 954, Roden wrote:
Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing
These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.
But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th
In post 973, Roden wrote:
Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead
Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim
In post 966, Roden wrote:
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
And you're still doing that today
That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude
Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...
On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he
ever
states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.
I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.
I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.
I just wanted a wagon and I don't really care if it's on OWER or Roden. In this situation at least OWER is putting in effort (and in a respectful way) so a Roden wagon it is
In post 1111, OutWorldER wrote:
alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up
Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN
Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
In post 944, Black wrote:
Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff
Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please
If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd
In post 622, Roden wrote:
Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.
Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.
Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.
Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.
Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.
Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.
Enchant: Pass.
Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.
Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.
OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.
Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.
Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.
Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.
Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons
Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE
Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here
Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the
reasoning
she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.
I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.
As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.
Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.
In post 777, Roden wrote:
For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.
The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered
almost entirely in defense of himself
is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.
These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.
The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:
I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
First of all...rude
Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?
Who are you voting
You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town
I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade
It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?
In post 954, Roden wrote:
Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing
These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.
But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th
In post 973, Roden wrote:
Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead
Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim
In post 966, Roden wrote:
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
And you're still doing that today
That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude
Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...
On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he
ever
states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.
I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.
I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.
I don't know how to end this wall.
VOTE: Roden
wow thats a lotta words, too bad im not readin em
Plural | Nameless (They/He) and Alice (She/Her) and C (They/Them) and more
I just wanted a wagon and I don't really care if it's on OWER or Roden. In this situation at least OWER is putting in effort (and in a respectful way) so a Roden wagon it is
Have you considered a Blackstar wagon
Plural | Nameless (They/He) and Alice (She/Her) and C (They/Them) and more
In post 1016, Hu Tao wrote:
Based on yesterday I think it should be Naerys and then Wiz
Also, would love to get a readslist from you—I feel like you’ve been far more quiet this game and it’s not making me want to trust you.
Was I not quiet before as town? What changed?
In our previous game here, you were way more talkative and shared your thoughts freely, especially townreads. Here, you’ve only popped in quickly to say you think one or two people are scummy like once a day—you’ve literally posted half as much this game in the same post span (32 vs 65). The posts aiso aren’t as substantial generally, I think.
I know you are aware of how your involvement this game has been lower than usual, because of [post] viewtopic.php?p=13972324#p13972324[/post]. I feel like you’re actively trying to hide this game and not make waves, and that doesn’t seem like the towniest thing to do, y’know?
Also, still would love that readslist.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
It just seems like you’re controlling the flow of the game more than anyone else. You were one of the people who pushed the Wartortle wagon through. As soon as the day started you worked to get the Naerys wagon going.
You seem to make a lot of posts along the lines of “I think these people are partners, this looks like the solve” and the confidence behind those posts feels unearned.
This is admittedly weak, but I mostly just go off of vibes and tone.
and I don't really care if it's on OWER or Roden. In this situation at least OWER is putting in effort (and in a respectful way) so a Roden wagon it is
In post 1092, TheHoldSteady wrote:
That's kind of crazy considering your account turns 4 in a few days, not gonna lie.
I havent been playing for like 3 years, due my personal issues. So at 2019 i played some newbies but then RL popped out and i came back like 2 months ago. So i dont have that much of games played on this site.
P.S. I want to say that OWER is opportunistically hopping on the Roden wagon, but I’m unsure if I could actually prove that based on his post here. The analysis is solid, even if the base of the argument is stuff Black has said before, and the addition of the bit on how Roden only ever really defended himself instead of Wartortle is pretty interesting.
I’m going to put my misgivings to the side as conf bias for now and reassess once we hear more from OWER on this.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
BlackStar, I don’t think you’re wrong that Black is very limhungry, but she has been pretty keen to also defend townreads and such. Additionally, I don’t think pushing for an elimination is super scummy if she makes good arguments for the targets—I mean, we’re supposed to want the people we think are scummy to be eliminated, right?
I mean, it’s not like she denied wanting to eliminate people in her response to you in 924 (though I will say she didn’t technically confirm it either), and she was like this in our last game too—lots of “sharpness,” as Shea put it.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
In post 1111, OutWorldER wrote:
alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up
Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN
Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
In post 944, Black wrote:
Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff
Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please
If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd
In post 622, Roden wrote:
Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.
Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.
Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.
Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.
Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.
Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.
Enchant: Pass.
Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.
Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.
OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.
Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.
Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.
Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.
Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons
Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE
Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here
Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the
reasoning
she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.
I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.
As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.
Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.
In post 777, Roden wrote:
For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.
The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered
almost entirely in defense of himself
is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.
These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.
The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:
I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
First of all...rude
Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?
Who are you voting
You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town
I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade
It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?
In post 954, Roden wrote:
Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing
These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.
But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th
In post 973, Roden wrote:
Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead
Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim
In post 966, Roden wrote:
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
And you're still doing that today
That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude
Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...
On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he
ever
states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.
I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.
I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.
I don't know how to end this wall.
VOTE: Roden
I think your argument against him doesn’t really work for two reasons, but I want to see Roden’s response before I share the issues I see with it.
