Open 893 - 09:12 - Postgame

[DragonEater70]

1.06

Votecount 1.06

Cobblerfone (2): Thomith, Mizuki
Gamma Emerald (2): Cobblerfone, Elements
Elements (1): Puffalicious

Not Voting (4): shaddowez, Celebloki, ssbm_Kyouko, Gamma Emerald

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-11-26 23:23:15).

[Thomith]

I don't think Gamma is a good vote

VOTE: gamma

What changed your mind on her between these two posts?

Skimmed Gamma's iso from open 891 and then reread its iso from this game

Okay. What similarities did you see?

You felt a lot more "look at me! I'm here to have fun!" In your entrance than I remember you feeling in other games I've played with you

@Kyouko, as I believe you have said before that you felt confident identifying Gamma Emerald as Mafia, I'm curious to know your thoughts on this? Do you agree with this assessment?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I looked at 891 and saw Gamma replaced in, and if I recall correctly she replaced in fairly late in the game. Seems flawed to try to compare these two, and maybe lazy to only compare one game. When I do this sort of thing as town I go through pages of ego and open every game and compare every entrance first to determine if the player has an AI entrance and then to compare it to the entrance in this game. This comparison is shallow and holds no value to me, but I'm not going to hold everyone to my standard of meta-diving.


I do think this is something you can catch scum on more frequently than you might think and I don't think scum!Gamma avoids getting caught in this way, in fact I may have caught her this way before, but I also find Gamma's reactions in 193 and 197 +town for her.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

so in summary, Elements' heart is in the right place, but the execution is flawed and I remain unconvinced

[Puffalicious]

When rereading I just realised something I did not notice before.

I fully only thought there were like 2 or 3 of us questioning Puff about post 30, but on a reread it seems like it was over half the playerlist in the entire game that was questioning the slot (Me, Gamma Emerald, Cobblerfone, Elements, Mizuki, Kyouko) either directly on post 30, or on other things after it became clear that the Puff slot had gained a lot of attention. That definitely gives me vibes that Puff could very feasibly just be Town, and there was at least one Mafia jumping on that seemingly easy train of thought/suspicion.
Again this also makes me more tempted to read Elements as Town currently, as it did look like they were trying to avoid this happening, at least to me.

This post from Thomith looks like a post only town would say and I am leaning town on him for this. I said earlier I was getting town vibes from Kyouko and I am leaning town on both of them right now.

- A

[Elements]

so in summary, Elements' heart is in the right place, but the execution is flawed and I remain unconvinced

why is it me trying to do meta but just doing it badly and not me trying to find reasons to scum read someone but not bothering to do it properly?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

[Mizuki]

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

Why couldn't it be mafia simply not feeling pressured and lazily throwing out arbitrary scumreads? You present the possibility of lazy!town and desperate!wolf but don't seem to consider the option in the middle.

-SNIP-

I won't get into the whole statistics part of this post because my opinions on statistics in mafia is that they're only useful for the theoretical side of mafia (e.g balancing setups) and have no use in actual gameplay.

I do want to know what you find in Puff's and Kyouko's posts that seems townie and what in Elements posts you find scummy, since those are basically the only reads you've given so far.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think if mafia is not pressured they don't throw out an arbitrary scumread. You ask why not but I can't think of a reason "why." Why challenge the status quo as mafia if there is no pressure? This is why I address the possibility of the pressure being on scum!Elements' partner scum!Cobbler, and note that it's a stretch to say that is the case here. It doesn't make sense for scum!Elements to fake that read on Gamma. Maybe it's a poor attempt at distancing, but I don't get that vibe from Gamma's reaction.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Distancing from scum!Gamma to be clear. I think that was clear, but I want to make it so. In any case, nothing strongly points to scum!Elements when I read those posts in this gamestate.

[Puffalicious]

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

I read it as nai the way how elements did it. It would look towny if she provided evidence of the posts from the completed game while also reading the completed game for the first time.

- A

[Gamma Emerald]

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

I read it as nai the way how elements did it. It would look towny if she provided evidence of the posts from the completed game while also reading the completed game for the first time.

- A

what do you make of me unvoting Elements?

[Puffalicious]

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

I read it as nai the way how elements did it. It would look towny if she provided evidence of the posts from the completed game while also reading the completed game for the first time.

- A

what do you make of me unvoting Elements?

I wasn't able to get a read on it.

- A

[Gamma Emerald]

but like, your whole vote on Elements was predicated on me voting them, so me unvoting should have staying power?

[Puffalicious]

but like, your whole vote on Elements was predicated on me voting them, so me unvoting should have staying power?

It was gob who voted Elements. He said he thinks he could hit scum.

- A

[Gamma Emerald]

okay get him in here then

[Puffalicious]

but like, your whole vote on Elements was predicated on me voting them, so me unvoting should have staying power?

I was choosing between Elements and someone else... cant remember who. And I chose Elements because I saw you were on it, although I guess you unvoted at some point.

I felt Elements was scum based on their opening as Crab btw. Idk how Adorable feels about Elements but I am down to vote that slot.

[Elements]

but like, your whole vote on Elements was predicated on me voting them, so me unvoting should have staying power?

I was choosing between Elements and someone else... cant remember who. And I chose Elements because I saw you were on it, although I guess you unvoted at some point.

I felt Elements was scum based on their opening as Crab btw. Idk how Adorable feels about Elements but I am down to vote that slot.

Does the fact i was intentionally doctoring my posts so I wouldn't be recognised change your read at all?

[Cobblerfone]

@Cobblerfone, we have your thoughts on Kyouko and Puff, what are your thoughts on the other players in this game?

Admittedly you remind me of my scum IC in my first newbie game on the site. Way back long ago. So you give me scum vibes, but I'm actively choosing to ignore them, because I think it was probably mostly a personality thing. When I read your posts, I imagine an old man in a leather armchair hanging back and but asking questions with a point to them. Though when I check your profile you seem to be younger than me in reality, so apologies.

For Elements, their vote hopping sticks out to me RVS!Puff -> Thomith -> Cobblerfone -> Gamma. When I read their posts they have a more naive voice in my head, but whether it's naive town or naive scum, I'm not sure.

Gamma gives the impression of just hanging back until I called her out. First parcel of content is in ISO 5 in which she gives the opinion that hypoclaiming targets but not results will be better. Next non-setup post of substance is ISO 9 where she asks Adorable what she thinks of Gobs reads. And that's it until I vote for her low content posts. Then she becomes more active. IDK, maybe she's mobile posting, but overall her early posts gives the impression of someone who wants to appear to be posting but to also fade into the background without strong opinions.

Mizuki, I think of in terms of her tunnel on me. My gut gives me a slight town read because I have a history of attracting misguided town tunnels. She was also the first vote on me when there was still a plausible wagon on Puff, so unless Puff is mafia and Mizuki is their partner, I don't see her being mafia. Though if Puff is mafia, then Mizuki is scummier.

For Celebloki and Shadowez, there's not enough interaction from them. Them being V/LA is slightly annoying, but it's Thanksgiving so whatever.

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

Why couldn't it be mafia simply not feeling pressured and lazily throwing out arbitrary scumreads? You present the possibility of lazy!town and desperate!wolf but don't seem to consider the option in the middle.

-SNIP-

I won't get into the whole statistics part of this post because my opinions on statistics in mafia is that they're only useful for the theoretical side of mafia (e.g balancing setups) and have no use in actual gameplay.

I do want to know what you find in Puff's and Kyouko's posts that seems townie and what in Elements posts you find scummy, since those are basically the only reads you've given so far.

I'll assume you mean Gamma instead of Elements (unless that was a scum-slip and Elements is your partner?). For Gamma, see above.

For Puff, it's mostly Adorable. The way they've been answering questions directed at Gob seems more stream-of-consciousness rather than calculated. Adorable is also choosing to reply when they don't have to -- they could just wait for Gob.

For Kyouko, the setup speculation didn't seem calculated to influence the town to choose a bad option. It was also early at the start of the game where there's low information anyway and it got some discussion going, though it didn't really go anywhere. And while she's not asking questions, her reactions to posts feel genuine rather than calculated.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma gives the impression of just hanging back until I called her out. First parcel of content is in ISO 5 in which she gives the opinion that hypoclaiming targets but not results will be better. Next non-setup post of substance is ISO 9 where she asks Adorable what she thinks of Gobs reads. And that's it until I vote for her low content posts. Then she becomes more active. IDK, maybe she's mobile posting, but overall her early posts gives the impression of someone who wants to appear to be posting but to also fade into the background without strong opinions.

this take falls apart imo with how I've interacted with Mizuki, I opened myself towards providing opinions there

[Puffalicious]

but like, your whole vote on Elements was predicated on me voting them, so me unvoting should have staying power?

I was choosing between Elements and someone else... cant remember who. And I chose Elements because I saw you were on it, although I guess you unvoted at some point.

I felt Elements was scum based on their opening as Crab btw. Idk how Adorable feels about Elements but I am down to vote that slot.

Does the fact i was intentionally doctoring my posts so I wouldn't be recognised change your read at all?

No not really. I am not tied to my read though, if someone else comes along that looks scummier I will go there. So,

[Mizuki]

-SNIP-

For some reason I thought 191 was your post. Don't ask me why, I'd just woken up at that time.

When you say "the setup speculation didn't seem calculated to influence the town to choose a bad option" can you provide a more specific example? Where exactly are the points you think Kyouko could've misled town?

but like, your whole vote on Elements was predicated on me voting them, so me unvoting should have staying power?

I was choosing between Elements and someone else... cant remember who. And I chose Elements because I saw you were on it, although I guess you unvoted at some point.

I felt Elements was scum based on their opening as Crab btw. Idk how Adorable feels about Elements but I am down to vote that slot.

Could you be more specific with what pinged you about Elements opening?

[Mizuki]

Honestly?

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko

I think pushing up here might be worthwhile.

[shaddowez]

Admitted pseudo-prodge since I expected to be back much earlier today, will catch up tomorrow.

[Thomith]

Spoiler: Cobblerfone's Long Quote

@Cobblerfone, we have your thoughts on Kyouko and Puff, what are your thoughts on the other players in this game?

Admittedly you remind me of my scum IC in my first newbie game on the site. Way back long ago. So you give me scum vibes, but I'm actively choosing to ignore them, because I think it was probably mostly a personality thing. When I read your posts, I imagine an old man in a leather armchair hanging back and but asking questions with a point to them. Though when I check your profile you seem to be younger than me in reality, so apologies.

For Elements, their vote hopping sticks out to me RVS!Puff -> Thomith -> Cobblerfone -> Gamma. When I read their posts they have a more naive voice in my head, but whether it's naive town or naive scum, I'm not sure.

Gamma gives the impression of just hanging back until I called her out. First parcel of content is in ISO 5 in which she gives the opinion that hypoclaiming targets but not results will be better. Next non-setup post of substance is ISO 9 where she asks Adorable what she thinks of Gobs reads. And that's it until I vote for her low content posts. Then she becomes more active. IDK, maybe she's mobile posting, but overall her early posts gives the impression of someone who wants to appear to be posting but to also fade into the background without strong opinions.

Mizuki, I think of in terms of her tunnel on me. My gut gives me a slight town read because I have a history of attracting misguided town tunnels. She was also the first vote on me when there was still a plausible wagon on Puff, so unless Puff is mafia and Mizuki is their partner, I don't see her being mafia. Though if Puff is mafia, then Mizuki is scummier.

For Celebloki and Shadowez, there's not enough interaction from them. Them being V/LA is slightly annoying, but it's Thanksgiving so whatever.

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

Why couldn't it be mafia simply not feeling pressured and lazily throwing out arbitrary scumreads? You present the possibility of lazy!town and desperate!wolf but don't seem to consider the option in the middle.

-SNIP-

I won't get into the whole statistics part of this post because my opinions on statistics in mafia is that they're only useful for the theoretical side of mafia (e.g balancing setups) and have no use in actual gameplay.

I do want to know what you find in Puff's and Kyouko's posts that seems townie and what in Elements posts you find scummy, since those are basically the only reads you've given so far.

I'll assume you mean Gamma instead of Elements (unless that was a scum-slip and Elements is your partner?). For Gamma, see above.

For Puff, it's mostly Adorable. The way they've been answering questions directed at Gob seems more stream-of-consciousness rather than calculated. Adorable is also choosing to reply when they don't have to -- they could just wait for Gob.

For Kyouko, the setup speculation didn't seem calculated to influence the town to choose a bad option. It was also early at the start of the game where there's low information anyway and it got some discussion going, though it didn't really go anywhere. And while she's not asking questions, her reactions to posts feel genuine rather than calculated.

Not completely game related but your visual of me made me smile

Could you expand a little on why you think you attract misguided town tunnels?

I'll bite on one of your other points though, just to hear some reasoning from someone else to avoid tunnelling on you.

@Elements, do you agree with the assessment that you've been vote hopping?

I'm willing to unvote for now. I admittedly don't know realistically how much info a Cobblerfone flip would give us right now.
UNVOTE: