Micro Normal 1094 | Game Over!

[Klick]

VOTE: Hu Tao

Bad vote imo

Wrong

[Kittiesecret]

I'm posting on mobile please forgive my lack of formatting

GAMMA:
VOTE: kittiesecret
I don’t like the narration-esque manner of writing or the lack of any tangible content. Doesn’t feel like she actually gives a damn to solve.

Ouch! I do care to solve but nothing is going to be solved in the first 3 and a half pages.

THOMITH:
What do you think of Hu Tao's questioning of me?
What do you think of my responses to that questioning?

Honestly I'll need to go back and re read it. For more detail. But it felt like a lot of words to not say very much.

What do you think of how Black has been posting so far?

Black was scum in the one whole game I have played and totally flew under my under developed radar until much later in the game. So I can't help but have a bias in feeling she might be scum here. I feel like she is exhibiting some of the same game play here.

What do you think of Arko's read list? Do you agree?

I feel this is accurate for page 4.

TESTAROSSA:
Also happy bday Kittie, thanks for me being older than me and thus making feel myself younger.

thanks! I think...

What do you mean with a lot of things being said without being said?

Just lots of words no real meaning. But in my whole 1 game experience that seems par for the course. There isn't any substance to anything being said at this point. Anything could be read as scum or town at this point depending on the context you read it in.

HU TAO:
VOTE: gamma

Feels like pushing on a new person. They stated they were new, why not ask a specific question if you're worried she's not trying to solve?

Thanks

!

VOTE: Gamma

[Thomith]

I feel good about Kittie for now I think. I like how they answered the questions - sure it had to be prompted, but I think there was a decent amount of analysis in them. I'm curious to see their answer to my first two questions though.

[Thomith]

She* Apologies.

[Black]

Yeah Kittie seems fine

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm posting on mobile please forgive my lack of formatting

GAMMA:
VOTE: kittiesecret
I don’t like the narration-esque manner of writing or the lack of any tangible content. Doesn’t feel like she actually gives a damn to solve.

Ouch! I do care to solve but nothing is going to be solved in the first 3 and a half pages.

THOMITH:
What do you think of Hu Tao's questioning of me?
What do you think of my responses to that questioning?

Honestly I'll need to go back and re read it. For more detail. But it felt like a lot of words to not say very much.

What do you think of how Black has been posting so far?

Black was scum in the one whole game I have played and totally flew under my under developed radar until much later in the game. So I can't help but have a bias in feeling she might be scum here. I feel like she is exhibiting some of the same game play here.

What do you think of Arko's read list? Do you agree?

I feel this is accurate for page 4.

TESTAROSSA:
Also happy bday Kittie, thanks for me being older than me and thus making feel myself younger.

thanks! I think...

What do you mean with a lot of things being said without being said?

Just lots of words no real meaning. But in my whole 1 game experience that seems par for the course. There isn't any substance to anything being said at this point. Anything could be read as scum or town at this point depending on the context you read it in.

HU TAO:
VOTE: gamma

Feels like pushing on a new person. They stated they were new, why not ask a specific question if you're worried she's not trying to solve?

Thanks

!

VOTE: Gamma

I have issues with this post, I’ll get into those in a bit

[Gamma Emerald]

What do you mean that Arko’s read list is “accurate for page 4”?

[Testarossa]

Arko's posts however...meh. I'm getting bad vibes here

I see your point regarding his Thom read. I have my thoughts about that as well, which reads else do you dislike though? Your readlists are pretty similar after all, so I figure you must be unhappy with his reasoning.

Speaking of that, on what is your scumlean on ORAM, now Klick, based on?

[Testarossa]

First impressions: Thomith Town, Hu town, Testarossa town, Kittie probably town too
Scum probably in Gamma/Black
VOTE: Black

From Hu, Thomith and Testarossa i get a feeling like they are trying to solve.
I dont like Gamma´s push on Kittie.Black feels bit flat, i want to add some pressure on her

I think I can figure why you townread those that you have listed there. You need to exlain that Kittie read though. That was even before her first real post.

Also what feels forced about Black's posts? Like I am suspecting Black as well, more for the accusatory nature of her first confrontations with ORAM and Hu Tao that you tend to see from scum in early game, however I would say there is a desire to push people/scum. Like, in comparision you are townreading me while I haven't even done any active scumhunting besides some questioning, which seems like that a little bit weird to me.

[Testarossa]

I feel good about Kittie for now I think. I like how they answered the questions - sure it had to be prompted, but I think there was a decent amount of analysis in them. I'm curious to see their answer to my first two questions though.

How so? Tbh her post felt pretty neutral to me. I would get it if that would be based on getting some vibes from that post, but I don't think she has said anything substantial?

Maybe I am just salty that there are so many scumreading Black, but are that ambigous about it because former games, which doesn't help. lol

[Black]

I see your point regarding his Thom read. I have my thoughts about that as well, which reads else do you dislike though? Your readlists are pretty similar after all, so I figure you must be unhappy with his reasoning

Yeah it's not the ordering of the reads, moreso the wordy and inflated nature of them

Speaking of that, on what is your scumlean on ORAM, now Klick, based on?

Gut. It isn't a very strong read

[Black]

Like I am suspecting Black as well, more for the accusatory nature of her first confrontations with ORAM and Hu Tao that you tend to see from scum in early game

Fwiw I have this tone as town, so scumread me for it at your own risk

This read reminds me of something Shea pointed out about me recently:

I think tonally she asks all these extremely pointed questions. The questions themselves aren't always pointed but they have a tonal resonance to me of 'I think you're a baddy' which is in and of itself kind of pointed and so when she's interacting with people (including me) it frequently feels like she's scum reading them and then those interactions go nowhere because she likes to jump around and poke her nose into everything so that tone and lack of followup always kind of feels opportunistic to me.

[Arko]

so, I'll just address a few things before I get to making the black post. Might take 1-2 hours.

1: Kittiesecret's post: Nice to see some thoughts from you. Also, another person mentioning black and similarities to previous games. I'll delve a bit deeper into the case in my next post (besides a few questions, I'll answer them first. I'll be comparing the game I played with black, a more recent game and this game.)

2: Black's latest response: Inflated and Wordy? I prefer to explain my reads (Whether you want to call it verbose or not) than just give no reasons. Having reasons lowers the amount of questions of "Why!", Increases the amount of questions based on both elaborating further and "How?", generally pushes the game further. It leaves more room for discussion over reaction. If you leave it to why!1111?? you are wasting time, and just fufilling the minimum of expressing your thoughts. Considering I was catching up, I did by a reads list with reasons, instead of reads and posts explaining why after or just, posts before giving the obvious picture. You did it too, you explained before and after the readslist of your own. I did it in a different way.

3: Klick voting Hu Tao: Can I get some like, thoughts on this vote? you are probably the first person here to have something besides a town read, let alone having a scum read. Would also be nice to hear your thoughts on more than just Hu Tao though.

4: Thom: It means that if black flipped scum, it would have more of an impact on your chances of being scum than if you flipped scum on black.

[Hu Tao]

VOTE: Hu Tao

Bad vote imo

Wrong

Yet you haven't explained why you scumread me at all, even though I asked why directly

[Hu Tao]

Yeah Kittie seems fine

Yeah I'm fine with Kittie for now.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Arko

That is not at all what your first post said.

[Arko]

Oh boy, It's time to dissect some shit. Comparing the first 15 Posts of This game (since I only really have time for that much, and I made my mind up fully there), a town game, the mafia game I was town in, and a more recent mafia game. HOLY LONG POST. It took forever too. We will be using Open 885, and Newbie 2116 for scum, and Open 891 for town.

Spoiler: ISO 0-4 - The valley of NAI

ISO 0/1 -

Every game it's a hello/RVS vote. I decided to not quote any of them, since this is FULL NAI territory. These are basically, completely pointless. There isn't any difference in these two posts with black in any of the games.

ISO 2 -

Still in NAI territory, but bear with me. ISO 2 of this game and Open 885 are both NAI. Not even quote worthy. however, I'll quote O891 and link N2116 for this one.

I'm not sure I see the scumminess in Dunn's entrance. Maybe a doing to much type thing but that's it

LINK
Both are questions. Not really too alignment indicative, but keep note of the type of questions.Town!black here had a more discussion question, while Scum!black had a question I'd say was more of a game pushing type. I'll just give classifications: Reactionary questions are questioning a vote on you, a scumread on you or questioning a question. Discussion questions are questioning someone else and their thoughts- like why do you have that read? for example. and a Game pushing question (Or one trying to pretend to be!) is questioning someone that hasn't been questioned, or for example- asking for reads. Infact, I'll keep a tally of which type of questions Black makes, the scum!Black makes, and Town!black makes. It's in order of Reactionary/Discussion/Game-Pushing, by the way.
Tally:
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/1D/0G
Scum: 0R/0D/1G

ISO 3 -

In the current game, she swaps her RVS vote onto Testa for voting her the 4th time. In O885, she makes a completely NAI comment about terms used for executions/eliminations. Pointless. in N2116 she accepts the reply to her question, totally NAI. However, in O891, in her town game, we have a new question to add to the tally list.

And why is that?

well for one it implies that Im just a VT

Why would this make you super not stoked about what he's saying and then why does that lead to a vote?

Add 1 to the discussion questions, please.
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/2D/0G
Scum: 0R/0D/1G

ISO 4 -

All of ISO 4 Posts in every game are pretty fucken NAI. Current is about the scummies, O885 is about Aureal posting at the same time as them, N2116 is about why putting some to E-2 on RVS isn't bad. However O891, her town game has an actual tinsy tiny bit of content relating to the game, unlike her current and her scum games. It's only a continuation to "Why did you get angry about being called a VT???" but it's related to the game.

Spoiler: ISO 5-9 - Comparisons!

ISO 5-7 -

I decided to bundle these together for a small comparison.

Feel like anybody who actually hammered her so early would be scumclaiming anyway.

This kinda feels like you know I'll flip town

I’m mostly applying the rules on titles on this site to the Scummies, and you aren’t supposed to ask for/propose titles for yourself outside of special events (which haven’t happened in a while?)

Ok I see. I wasn't aware. I've already been nominated fwiw, but I'll try not to talk about it anymore

Feel like anybody who actually hammered her so early would be scumclaiming anyway.

This kinda feels like you know I'll flip town

This seems like a stretch

Funny, that's how I feel about your Thomith read

This is from the current game. Accusatory, then NAI, then Reactionary while defending thom. It isn't a reactionary question, so nothing added to the tally but still, definitely reactionary. Next up: Scum.
O885:

No! How else am I supposed to pocket you!

you should know by now you don't need to try. I exist to be in your pocket. kinda like a baby kangaroo. it's my happy place

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Reasoning for my read: I thought the way that Black said this was weird. Like, why not explain why Generic's solving could be a good or bad sign?

there's not really much to explain. i thought Generic's read felt natural

I don't mind T3's vote on me. I like that he admitted he was grasping at straws to start discussion

CCG's vote feels bad though. Putting me at e-2 by piggybacking off of someone grasping at straws and doubling down on their point feels off

N2116:
ISO 5
ISO 6
ISO 7
Both follow the same pattern here. They defend a townie, and have a reactionary post. In O885 the townie defense is ISO 5 and 6, and the reactionary post (Was also an accusation!) was at ISO 7. In N2116, they defend a townie on ISO 6, and on ISO 7 they reacted to Delta (a townie) accusing them. Reactionary post there folks. so, what about the town 5-7 area?
O891:

VOTE: pisskop

I think if this flips red then SS could be partnered

I don't really like how SS showed up and didn't say anything about pisskop and the conversation going on with him. 33 sorta feels on-the-fence regarding Dunn's motives which isn't really scummy by itself but in this situation it feels like he might be trying to get ahead of the pisskop wagon and pre-emptively alleviate some pressure there

Obviously this is just a gut feeling based on another gut feeling so I don't have much confidence in it atm

she accuses earlier in this one, doesn't try to defend anyone, tries to solve further than a reaction/"No reason for this guy to be than scum", and actually seems uncertain.
If you compare it, her current game is structured WAY closer to her scum games than her town games.

ISO 8/9 -

Let's again compare her current game, the recent scum game and the town game. Not using the newbie one, since ISO 8/9 there is pretty NAI.
Current Game:

VOTE: Hu Tao

Why are you framing it as him repeating information and not him giving a reason for his vote?

I agree with him that putting me at e-1 isn't necessarily scum indicative, but it's not very pro-town and I don't see any issue with him voting Testarossa for it

Mafia Game (O885):

The dayvig was a reference to a random newbie game I tuhink 2123

This was one of my favorite Mafia moments in recent memory

CCGeek, how can you find T3's aggression possibly 'faux' but also agree with the point he made?

Oh right because you're scum.

You may be right here

VOTE: CCGeek

And Finally, Town game. (O891):

And furthermore, they call to meta. Which is more interesting than any defense you feel might be happening.

Wdym?

No, but I guess I just thought you should have some opinions on his reactions and his vote on Dunn

so, let's begin. In her scum game, she seems way more confident in her reads and even votes for it, while in the other one she doesn't even vote for many posts past this. Now compare: Which one seems more similar to the current game??? hmmmmmmmmm.... also gotta add more to the tally. Discussion question, still wdym though.
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/3D/0G
Scum: 0R/0D/1G

Spoiler: ISO 10-14 - JUUUUUDDGGEEEMENNT CAAALLLL!

ISO 10-12 -

so, this is the first time that black acts COMPLETELY opposite as she did as scum... and not in a good way. she unvotes Hu Tao and goes for thom within 2 posts. However, in her previous scum game (O885) she stayed on her vote until ISO 24. The thing is- In both examples, she's extremely confident both before the swap AND after the swap. however, in a town game she doesn't even vote for a while, and is a lot less votehoppy OR as overconfident in her reads. I dunno how to say it but- she is less 1 dimensional, ON/OFF switch in her town games compared to her scum games, and she feels like just as much of an ON/OFF switch in this game as she did there. I don't think I need to really quote anything, but I will anyways to make it easier to get my point. Also again, reactionary in both current and scum. Also, she asks questions outside of her focus on her town game, which she didn't this game or the scum game. Also have to add a new question to the scum side of the question tally. you can see why below.
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/3D/0G
Scum: 1R/0D/1G

Current.

I kinda like Hu Tao's questions here

I don't really like Thomith saying his Testa vote was purposely weak after he got some pressure for it. To me it felt like his frustration was real and he was genuinely worried about someone not paying attention to the VC and hammering me, which I think makes sense from a competitive standpoint. But the conversation with Hu makes me think he's trying to play it off as it all being fake for the sake of reactions

VOTE: Thomith

2) I knew it was a very weak reason to vote,

and knew it would bring attention to me

, so I could gauge the reactions it brought to get the game moving.

I'm just having a hard time believing this is true

Scum (O885)

Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?

OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that

What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?

Also, black, what even is this OMGUS lol.

meh. I think your entrance to the game is the scummiest out of everyone so far. If voting for you after you voted for me is OMGUS then so be it

Why are you so defensive? Surely you don't mind getting wagoned early D1, do you?

i don't feel like i was being defensive at all tbh. Ironically I do mind getting wagoned but that's always been a thing with me

Town (O891)

Dann that reminds me, I wanted to ask you something. I might as well ask it here even though it's not related to the game. How much did you compare my play between Mini Normal 2313 and Open 885 while they were ongoing? Did playing with me in those games simultaneously have any effect on your read on me in either game?

That is a bold claim. Then again, it's page 2, we don't really have non-bold ones.

Yeah I'm not really putting too much stock in my own read but I feel like being open with my thoughts here

ISO 13-14 -

Finally we are done with dissecting the scum. This is more than anything really just cleanup, considering I've already dissected via comparison 3 times on this scum. ISO 13 and 14 are both questions from her. First is a discussion question by asking gamma's thoughts on something already going on, the next is definitely a game pushing (or trying to be) type of question, asking the more silent player Nae at the time to put thoughts in about the game. so finally, actual questions to add to the tally. And in her scum game she's defensive. in her town game, she's talking about a former game and the reads of that game, and thus NAI. Tally update!
Current: 0R/1D/1G
Town: 0R/3D/0G
Scum: 1R/0D/1G
Also, so you don't have to find the games yourself, quotes of the games as well.
Current

I think Hu Tao picked up on the same things I did, just expressed them in a way that wasn’t perfect

What do you think of Thomith's responses afterward?

Bloop

Any thoughts on the game so far?

Scum (O885)

Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?

OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that

What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?

No difference, I simply had missed it and was surprised when you said I put you to E-2.

fair enough

But I do have a question for you. In a 9p game, what do you think constitutes as a wagon?

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this question? I'd say 3 out of 8 possible votes qualifies as a wagon

Town (O891)

i try not to let bleed between simultaneous games influence me too much but obviously it does still happen

I should probably work on this XD

My scum read of you in 885 was heavily influenced by me knowing you were town in 2313. I couldn't get over the differences in your playstyle even though you had a decent explanation for it

Wait I think I mixed up those games. Reverse that

so, what the fuck is my conclusion?
VOTE: Black
Black is playing in the same exact style as her scum games. Due to her playstyle in them, It's also likely Thom is town, since her nature of coming in the defense of a town that she also showed off here that only happens in a scum game.
Ninja'd - Actually, yes it is. I said that one of you flipping would effect the other, and black flipping would be more effecting you than vice versa. but, as you can see by this post yeah... that thought changed.

[Arko]

should probably add some more conclusion reasons:
she answers more questions- and different questions as town.
she is way less ON/OFF and confident in her reads, usually voting later.
she commonly defends a townie early on.
If you want more examples for this type of thing, ask and you shall receive tomorrow or in a few hours. I'm not doing it now, fuck no.
I'll make a readslist after I seem some responses, I've got updates to make.

[Arko]

small correction, she asks not answers. sorry about that mistake.

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel good about Arko for now

[Thomith]

I feel good about Arko for now

Why?

[Gamma Emerald]

I like the effort to case Black

[Thomith]

Do you agree with it?

[Arko]

Also thom, It's pretty obvious I've said the same thing each time.

Black - Null -

Something is pinging to me here that black is scum. Considering I completed 1 game with them as scum... it feels similar to that game. but it also feels just mildy scummy. and then town at the same time. It's unironically a 50/50 whether they are town or scum, and that's not a good thing. I'm saying it now, I'm not feeling black as town. And I don't like it.

If Thom is scum, I'm honestly feeling this has a higher chance of being scum if not.

Thom - Null -

I'm not gonna list what has been said already, it's pretty obvious I agree just by the position. However, the thing I DO want to add is their interactions with black generally read to me like crazy as either scum trying to follow a townie, or a scum acting pair-pair with their partner then realizing: I should probably distance.

Yeah, if black's scum the chance of thom being scum is definitely higher. More than what black would be if thom flipped scum though- the first scenario mentioned should be a good explanation.

I directly state the following in this post: That the possibility of Black/Thom being a pair is real (At least THEN. That isn't the case now.) via saying on both that if one is scum the other has a higher chance of being scum. And I directly prioritize you two via saying: More than what black would be if thom flipped scum though.

On the response to your questions on it, I directly mentioned both TvS and SvS is possible and double down on the fact that black flipping scum had less of an effect on you than vice versa.

[Thomith]

"If Thom is scum, I'm honestly feeling this has a higher chance of being scum if not."

This bit is the bit that specifically sounds like the contradiction to me, because it sounds like you are saying if I flip scum, than black has a higher chance of being scum than not, which sounds different than you saying black flipping scum says more about me than me flipping scum on black.