Mini Normal 2319: Flavorless Hell | Day 5

[Celebloki]

Hello! Sorry guys, this game started right as I have house guests coming into town and will be hosting a Friends-Giving dinner tomorrow night.

VOTE: Celebloki

How dare this guy V/LA right when a game starts.

@Mod: I will be V/LA until Tuesday.

I'll probably not be able to devote much time to play until Tuesday.

[Celebloki]

Back-ish, still probably going to be pretty sparse until after Thursday.

UNVOTE:

Drew reads are certainly controversial.

[Celebloki]

Checking in, I am going to be fairly absent until after tomorrow. I have out of town house guests and will be too occupied to devote much attention until Friday.

[Celebloki]

Ooo, I’m excited to play in a game with Aliana. Only had games modded by her at this point.

I don’t think I see the same gob here and was in Large 245 where he was scum. I’m calling him null at best still though.

[Celebloki]

Hola, I'm back. Most of the drew posting seems par for the course from what I've seen, but I'm getting a generally more care-free vibe from Drew. Not sure if for him if that AI either direction. Similar to Hu, I am finding it hard to re-engage with this game, even even initially engage. I almost feel like a replacement since it started with me essentially being V/LA for the starting few days.

[Celebloki]

I'm not sure I can articulate a tell, but I do generally feel like gob's vibe is very different here than in other games I've seen him. I'm town reading him solely based on that right now.

[Celebloki]

I'm actually getting a lot of deja vu reading this game from Open 890. Except this time instead of Drew using Alianna as his mod audience, he can interact directly with her. And the vibe between DE and Drew seems similar too.

[Celebloki]

I'm actually getting a lot of deja vu reading this game from Open 890. Except this time instead of Drew using Alianna as his mod audience, he can interact directly with her. And the vibe between DE and Drew seems similar too.

Care to share what my and Dragon's alignments were as well?

Drew Town and DE Scum. There was a pretty big push on drew at one point and a lot of people shading drew for performing for Alianna. I guess my point for my previous post is that I am tending more towards TRing Drew from how this game is going.

[Celebloki]

Ok, I've gone back and re-read and actually forced myself to understand some of the minutiae of some of the interactions that I glazed over while V/LA. Specifically stuff like the Altaria/Umlaut "drew read" stuff and the gob/Hu Tao reads and OMGUS accusations.

I find a lot of that stuff to generally be early RVS or RVS adjacent reaches for early reads.

In my previous few posts I felt I was seeing a different gob in this game. I think I am changing my mind about that. Reading his response to the drew open wolfing and his 'can't remember' why he was scum reading people and waffling around actually reminds me a lot of Large 245 where he was scum. He similarly was wildly flopping around and didn't appear to be fully reading or comprehending the game state in that game and afterwards when reading the Scum PT he was actually doing a great job keeping the town off balance in that game. I'll say at this point I won't say he must be scum then, but I am not going to claim he's different and say he's town. Since I have no town game to compare him too I just can't be sure he isn't always like this.

Similarly, DE feels very similar in this game as he did in Open 890 to me. Aliana already pointed out some of his similar posts from that game. He also posted more actively and confidently in that game which I think I am also seeing here.

Since I am going off meta vibes, I am also seeing a different Hu Tao here than her town presence in Large 245.

In light of not having any completed personal games with these players that would give me a contrasting alignment meta on them, I am not fully comfortable basing reads on them, but I think these 3 are my stronger scum reads at the moment, Dragon probably being the biggest. The interaction with Drew really pinged me.

[Celebloki]

In light of that, I'm going to put Dragon at E-1.

VOTE: DragonEater70

[Celebloki]

tbh, the only difference is that you're posting in this game. I'm not saying it's a major difference, just that it's different. I do acknowledge you were V/LA, but who knows, maybe you were just a bored VT in Large 245 and in this one you got a scum role pm and are now all jazzed up to play. I'm not ready to champion a wagon on you, but I am going to be more dubious of you.

[Celebloki]

Caught me. I got that juicy scum role pm

See, there you go admitting to getting a scum role PM just like you did in 245. Maybe you are town after all.

[Celebloki]

UNVOTE:

I'm also okay with a gob wagon. He's also in my shortlist after my re-read and I'm inclined to give a PR claim a chance.

VOTE: gob

[Celebloki]

well we're off to a great start.

[Celebloki]

I knew it!

[Celebloki]

i think umlaut and kyouko have the worst interactions with gob

...

we should trust dragon for as long as we can but i don't like how gob tried to save him with his backwards reasoning. reminds me somewhat of the last game he played where he tried to stop a gamma lim from happening

I would agree about Kyouko and Umlaut with regards to their interactions to gob.

In that second bit, are you referring to Large 245 where he was basically trolling Gamma all game, trying to lim her, then at the last second changed his mind when others started to try and join in?

I'm not 100% sure I agree about Drew. He definitely went hard on the gob wagon at the end and said he had intent to hammer, but I wonder if that couldn't have been performative. I'd say there's a good chance Dragon would have jailed Drew last night. They were goin at each other quite a bit before Dragon claimed.

[Celebloki]

man, I keep missing my chance to make memey pagetops and post normal ones instead.

[Celebloki]

Yeah, I keep fighting posting because of that too. I keep writing up half a post, then delete it and decide I want to wait for dragon to chime in. I couldn't resist talking about 245 though.

[Celebloki]

oof

[Celebloki]

I feel bad too because I specifically responded because I thought if you were talking about 245, maybe I could sus out if you were someone from that game lol.

[Celebloki]

well if it makes you feel any better, I recently decided I'd only meta read people based on completed games I've played with them. I did some meta diving when I came back from hiatus and was in Open 890. Everyone in that game was talking about meta and I felt lost. I went and read some games and decided after that game I wasn't going to do that again.

So at least for now I am blind to your meta lol.

[Celebloki]

Coulda, but assuming Dragon IS a JK, wouldn't scum have the highest likelihood to target him.

[Celebloki]

I like to imagine we're all here sitting in a conference room around a table and when Dragon finally walks in, we're all just staring at him silently.

[Celebloki]

idk if we can trust Aliana. I don't think she has any mod experience. She ain't no Alianna or anything.

[Celebloki]

I was just in a game recently where Elements did this with an alt account. She ultimately replaced in with her main account lol.

[Celebloki]

Extremely Likely - Dragon doesn't post and lets rampant conspiracy theories get woven.

Hopefully occam's razor is correct and Dragon has a smoking gun to point at. I feel like all the crazier scenario's are just so not likely.

[Celebloki]

I guess I just haven't seen it, I feel like the prevailing philosophy is maximize what you can do. Obviously holstering a N-Shot makes sense, but a factional NK should just be used every night. I think the longest shot here is that scum holstered. It's far more likely there was a role block or protection that happened. I think getting lost in the sauce on this day over the wilder scenario's might just muddy the waters. If we lim someone that Dragon points at and it's town, the crazier scenarios get looked at tomorrow.

[Celebloki]

Welp, still no Dragon eh?

[Celebloki]

Hmm, I was not expecting Dragon to say Black(Ataria) was his target. I was sure he was going to have targeted someone I felt was scummy. Off the rip I am inclined to think Black could have been the NK target and the JK was protective but I want to go back and do some re-reading before I commit to any specific theory.

[Celebloki]

Hmm, the side of me that likes to come up with crackpot theories tells me if we tell DE to jail Black every night, we'll end up at 3p with Dragon/Black/Towniest person left and it'll turn out that DE is scum and just no killed every night then will win because he is conftown at that point. I almost want to say if we go down this route and get to that scenario, we lim Dragon at that point.

That's of course not counting for any other PRs that may shed more light on out situation.

[Celebloki]

idk, I think Umlaut is the yeet and we humbly request that Dragon pretend to JK Black again.

It's hard to see gob and Altaria/Black as partnered.

Umlaut's ISO is just terrible, especially when read alongside gob. Shades gob for his taking Drew's open wolf bait. Does similar waffling on committing to the DE wagon D1, he says hes all over the place and then quickly changes his mind about that. Shades the gob wagon while trying to push Hu Tao. gob conveniently leaves Umlaut out of basically all his his reads except for one time saying he is 'nai' on him.

VOTE: Umlaut

[Celebloki]

any crumbs?

VOTE: gob

i would also be ok with umlaut here

I mean I'm also okay with either

Dragon says this but doesn't join the gob wagon

I'm starting to think it's just Dragon here

gob's whole "yeah Dragon is scum but we should let him live" thing is just so wild to me. I'm also not buying the excuse that Dragon just forgot about this game but I could be wrong there

I'm pretty convinced scum is within {Dragon, Umlaut} so I would be willing to vote either today

This isn't necesarrily out of pocket for gob though. In Large 245, gob was scum. He spent a lot of time shading Gamma Emerald, tried to run a wagon on her. Then when she got closed to being limmed he 180ed on it resulting in a favorite moment of mine.

Gob/Gamma

This is a trash take

probably
still want to vote you

Why do you want to vote Gamma?

She could be town and I could be wrong.

Are you fucking joking me

[Celebloki]

Oh, well there wasn't a wagon, but he was on her tail for several days at that point and as soon as someone else decided to join him he 180ed.

[Celebloki]

I do think if it's not Umlaut and we're back here tomorrow with no kill, we can't let Dragon get to ELO.

[Celebloki]

I realize dead townies still win with the town, but I have a real soft spot for getting as many town to endgame as I can. You may have me pocketed, but I just TR you and wasn't expecting Dragon's finger to be pointing at you. In my head when I made those posts I was like 95% sure he'd come in here and say he jailed Umlaut or Drew last night. Maybe gerainmt. I was fully ready to yeet any of them as soon as Dragon said the word.

[Celebloki]

I'll be honest, the start of this game I was very absent and most of my reading was quick skimming. After the holiday and when my guests left was when I first really read the game through and I posted my 406. From skimming before this I recall I didn't really read gob being very inflammatory. My only exposure to gob was in 245 and he was quite the trip in that game. We had mostly confirmed PRs who had cleared others and gob was trying to push wagons on them and saying a lot of out of pocket stuff all game. He made it seem like he had paid no attention to what was happening and was just trying to push people. He was so wild that most people were giving him a pass and kind of putting him into a VI slot it seemed like. When the game ended, he was revealed to be scum, and I went back and read the Scum PT, I gained a much different view of gob. He was basically doing all that on purpose to knock the town off balance. When I went back and re-read this game, saw his response to Drew's open wolfing comments, the way he waffled back and forth on DE and his general flippancy, I changed my mind on him. My 'town tell' comment to Kyouko was just me at the time not feeling his 245 vibe from my skimming. When I actually read the game, he came off scummy. I can't wait to actually play a town game with him to see if he's any different.

[Celebloki]

oof, I should have split that into some paragraphs.

[Celebloki]

This games seems to have stagnated. I was kinda hoping at some point for a little more from Dragon, why he chose Altaria as his JK. Thoughts on today. It feels like he's checked out on this game specifically.

[Celebloki]

I’m VT

[Celebloki]

I'm still content with Umlaut for today.

I also did not consider that scum was not multi-tasking and how that could affect last night. With JK, Lazy Vig, and whatever Kyouko is, the remaining scum has to be some kind of PR. Question is what could it be that they would want to use it over a NK? If anything this makes me feel better about Black. Also about Kyouko. Since there is probably only 1 scum left why would they be 'buddying' or rather why would Kyouko defend Black's claim? Doesn't make sense for scum.

I suppose it could still be Dragon and he used whatever his scum PR is and he used the JK claim to frame Black for the lack of a kill. But he claimed JK before gob died and he started the gob wagon, he didn't necessarily know he would maybe need to have claimed JK to frame someone for a lack of a kill so I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense either.

[Celebloki]

Interesting....

[Celebloki]

So, I have a question, assuming scum isn't getting roleblocked or the NK target is not getting protected. What Scum PR role would be worth doing over performing a NK? There's no like arsonist or something in this format is there? I feel like unless the scum is being very tricksy by holstering, they must be getting blocked one way or the other by the JK.

[Celebloki]

Oddly enough, I think my towniest read is geraintm. I'm kind of thrown for a loop. I think my next Towniest are Black and Kyouko. There's something in the back of my head that's being a little conspiracy theorist that Kyouko's "PR soft claim that makes Black's claim make sense for setup reasons" could be Kyouko pocketing Black, but I'm trying not to let the crackpot win me over. My POE says it's in Dragon, Hu Tao, Drew, Aliana but I'm having a hard time narrowing it down too much further.

[Celebloki]

Spoiler:

I re-read. Like Drew, probably my top town read.

Altaria, Dragon are my scumreads.

UNVOTE: Doctor Drew

I cant remember what I said before, but Drew seems towny for sure here.

VOTE: Altaria

I like kyoukou as well.

Don't like Altaria, Dragon Eater or Celebloki.

Hu Tao seemed good too.

Drew/Dragon/Altaria

One of these contains mafia for sure btw. I don't think it's Drew.

In gob's posting he liked to call the 'A's scummy as well as Dragon, but he also tried to pump the brakes on the Dragon wagon so he could get shot at night. He liked to TR Drew and Kyouko. He even called Drew his top town read, so idk if this would be town spewing on his part...

[Celebloki]

Spoiler:

Sup nerds

VOTE: Hu Tao

Whats this all about ?

VOTE: Gob

VOTE: Hu Tao

But why

But why

Why not

True

I;m not feeling this hu tao wag

Why not?

Why not?

Feels like counter to Altaria wagon

He had this whole RVS shenanigans with Hu Tao and then later was opposing her D1 wagon. Sorry I'm just kinda brain dumping here while I mull it over.

[Celebloki]

Interestingly, I don't think he ever had any interaction with geraintm or even mentioned his name.

[Celebloki]

My main reason for TRing geraintm is that I had a hard time reconciling that scum would hammer their scumbuddy in a 2-person scumteam on D1. But maybe that was why he would do it...

[Celebloki]

I do tend to agree that it's likely not Dragon, on my POE list Dragon is the one in it that's least likely for me. I think my top 2 are Hu and Drew. I kind of had a similar thought as Black to Drew's 578 which is why I rebutted it at the time. The vibe I got was that maybe he thought he was the JK target and that he was caught. This is why I said later I was surprised Dragon said his target was Altaria. I was just waiting for Dragon to come in and say he had targeted Drew that night. Since our plan was to yeet that person I was ready to go.

It's obviously completely possible Drew targeted Altaria for the NK and was saved by Dragon.

[Celebloki]

I do tend to agree that it's likely not Dragon, on my POE list Dragon is the one in it that's least likely for me. I think my top 2 are Hu and Drew. I kind of had a similar thought as Black to Drew's 578 which is why I rebutted it at the time. The vibe I got was that maybe he thought he was the JK target and that he was caught. This is why I said later I was surprised Dragon said his target was Altaria. I was just waiting for Dragon to come in and say he had targeted Drew that night. Since our plan was to yeet that person I was ready to go.

It's obviously completely possible Drew targeted Altaria for the NK and was saved by Dragon.

Why do you think it could be Hu Tao here?

It's was based purely off interaction with gob early D1. He asks Kyouko what the deal was with her RVS vote on Hu Tao, then he OMGUSs Hu Tao when she votes him. This felt theatery to me. Then gob was against her wagon later on. Re-reading the ISO of both of them though I am not sure this morning anymore though. gob could have just been distancing if a town!Hu Tao gt mis-limmed. Hu Tao did jump over to the gob flash wagon after me when Dragon claimed D1 though. I'm starting to question scum!Hu Tao for the same reason I tend to TR geraintm, would she go along with getting rid of her scum buddy D1... I think I'm talking myself out of this SR.

[Celebloki]

Wow, I can't believe that pagetop sat un-grabbed that long.

[Celebloki]

Yeah, I think my FoS, if that is even a term anymore, is on Drew right now. I want to wait and see what Dragon may or may not say today regarding his target last night if he had one. I think for today I wouldn't want a lim in geraintm/Black/Kyouko/Dragon. I am townreading Aliana so I don't really want to go there for a lim either. I prefer Drew over Hu Tao for today.

[Celebloki]

Hu Tao, you say you led scum on D1, and also in the past credited yourself with starting the gob quick wagon. The only post that kind of goes along with this was:

I'm also fine with a gob flash wagon

Which you said after Dragon already voted him, arguably Dragon started it. You didn't vote until after Altaria and myself got on it. For the rest of the day besides saying you 'started' it in 510, you didn't push for or ask anyone else to get on it. You spent the rest of the day arguing with Altaria about Drew. I don't really see any of this as starting or leading this wagon. You seems to really be trying to make that narrative fact.

[Celebloki]

I'm really just waiting on what Dragon has to say at this point. My biggest scum reads are still Drew or Hu Tao. At this point they are kinda even for me. I don't like Hu Tao trying to push the narrative that she was the champion of the gob wagon when she wasn't. I'm at the point that I think the "block" as it were is Black/Dragon/Kyouko/geraintm and as long as they stick around we eventually win. You can knock me out at some point, just do Drew and Hu Tao first.

[Celebloki]

That is why I town bin geraintm, Kyouko because I kinda have her tethered to Black.

[Celebloki]

The slot that is probably the biggest '?' for me is Aliana/Dann tbh. I was generally town leaning Aliana all game. I might be hard pocketed though because of like most the games I've played since I've been back she has modded and somehow that gives me warm fuzzies.

[Celebloki]

The other possible hammerers were Drew (claimed Intent), Kyouko, and Umlaut(Town). So I suppose if for the sake of argument geraintm is town that leave's gob's buddy on the wagon or in that list. In a similar argument to geraintm, would gob's buddy stay on the wagon for cred or try to derail it by leaving? The only person that left that wagon was Black, got argued back on by Drew I guess. There was a 5 hour gap between Black going back to the wagon and geraintm's hammer coming in.

Does scum!geraintm hammer or wait for the intent given by Drew? If Drew still had intent, why did he wait after Black rejoined? geraintm's hammer felt like he hadn't been paying attention to the game, came in caught up and joined a wagon/hammer, but I acknowledge that could be purposeful. Maybe they do if they feel they need to get cred before a townie does it.

Kyouko could certainly be pocketing Black with her so far non-claim claim. But I feel like for today this should still be believed.

This feels like another rambly post, but I'm kind of just doing stream of thought.

[Celebloki]

You know, I was wondering if Aliana was going to get the 1000 in this game and if she would have counted it on Alianna. I also wanted to ask her if she is more satisfied by getting them as a player in a game vs Mod pagetops.

[Celebloki]

This makes sense to me. As I said yesterday, I was expecting that Dragon had targeted Drew and that's why we had a no kill. It still makes sense to me that that is what happened, just the the JK protected the target and didn't roleblock. I can see Drew targetting Black that night.

VOTE: Doctor Drew

I believe that is E-1

[Celebloki]

I can go no elim

VOTE: no elimination

[Celebloki]

Yeah Hider dies if the person they were hiding with dies. So she must have hid behind gerain and gerain got NKed.

[Celebloki]

I can see why geraintm was the NK, he was generally low info kill and everyone was basically giving him a pass for hammering gob.

[Celebloki]

I really feel like it's gotta be Drew. Do we think Drew was the NK target N2?

I can see the logic now that Kyouko would believe Black's claim. Hider makes sense with a Lazy Vig. If we believe Dragon's claims and targets, he saved Black N1 ( I still think Black is town) and blocked/saved Drew N2. I'm more inclined to believe that was a block and not a protect.

[Celebloki]

I've made it no secret that my top 2 are Drew and Hu Tao. They seem to be oddly protective of each other though. Especially considering they can't be buddies atp.

[Celebloki]

Hu Tao trying to cement the narrative that she was the champion of the gob wagon is for me the biggest smoking gun. Yeah, she lightly shaded him and said she'd be into a flash wagon, but she only voted after others did. Then she didn't push it at all after that. Then she comes in here the next day saying she led the D1 wagon on scum.

[Celebloki]

VOTE: Hu Tao

Well I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

[Celebloki]

Drew is an ominous guy.

[Celebloki]

The theme song for this game is "Anticipation" by Carly Simon.

[Celebloki]

When we were in twilight after hammering Hu Tao I had an epiphany that we should have limmed Dragon to confirm his role first. I wasn't sure he was scum, but I wanted to reconcile his claim. I was going to push limming him before I did the math that we didn't have the chance to anymore. If I wasn't the NK last night, I was gonna push for a no elim this day and if I was in the game with Dragon at 3p, was gonna push for him lol. I probably would have had a pretty uphill battle though, I wasn't pushing him the past few days. It was all too late though.

[Celebloki]

gg