Mini 696 ~ Scum o' the Sea ~ Game Over

[Goatrevolt]

Yaarr, I be catchin the latest talk tomorrow, then it be high time one of ye scurvy dogs gets yer fill of the sea.

[Goatrevolt]

Ahoy, best be gettin' out yer mops. It be time to scrub some bilge-sucking scurvy infested scum from our decks.

Vote Gremwell

He be one of them mutinous dogs out fer the head of our dear Cap'n Morgan.

I can't speak for the others but I was hoping for reactions, we got zero from D1 and right now we need to make up for lost time, we're already down 2 townies with nothing to show for it. If someone else has some better ideas I'm all ears

Avast! This lubber be tryin' too hard to look like an honest sea dog. This "just trying to help the town" stuff be faker than the doubloons on that saucy wench at ol' jack's tavern.

as for with Clockwork, I was satisfied with your answer so I moved my vote, I said before that I was voting for reaction and you answered my question,
I probably would have reacted the same way D1 if that wagon sprung up of my vote and unvoted without thinking.

Somethin be smellin afoul 'bout this one. He be flowing in an' out of wagons faster than last night's merry grog. So easily satisfied, matey? Yer couldnt be too suspicious in the first place, then, aye?


I also be putting the black spot on all ye lurkers. Best be searchin for scum er ye get a taste o' the salty deep yerself.

Yar, I be havin a good time of it. If I be too tough to understand, give me a shout and I be talkin' like one of em sissy lubber swabs faster than ye can drop an anchor.

[Goatrevolt]

the first point is simply that I am "too townie"

Nay, not "too townie." Sayin' "Shiver me Timbers! We be down two sea dogs, with no mutiny to show" don't help the Cap'n any, it just sounds "townie." Yar, this boot-lickin, cheerleadin' talk just make you sound like one of Morgan's men, but don't help him none.

as for the second count I wasn't that suspicious in the first place, I know you have had a lot to read up so maybe you missed the part where I explained my confusion on that vote but I decided to ask some questions even though the vote was a mistake.

Begad, ye be makin' a lubber out o' me. Me addled mind o'erlooked that one.

I agree with Goatrevolt case on Gremwell, and I do not like the lack of response.

Ye best be explainin yerself lass. What yer talkin' bout "lack of response?"

The mod has mentioned nothing of a deadline extension since he said he could be persuaded to put one in place so I can only presume that the deadline is up tomorrow. Now we are in a dilemma. Should someone hammer Gremwell (because he is currently the person with the highest amount of votes so it would be easier) so we get information for tomorrow, request an extentsion and continue discussion or do nothing and allow the day to go by with a no lynch?

Avast! If we salty dogs can't give a man a good ol' floggin' then strap him under for some keelhaulin' then we be no better than an addled lubber. Some bilge-suckin' scum be getting the taste o' me cat o' nine today. Yaaarrr, else we be dead in our sleep with naught to gain.

Dead me tell no tales, bucko. Arrr, floggin' a dog fer information be good for naught. We best be killin' those we find lookin' fer Cap'n Morgan's head.

We best be in fer a lon' day, Mateys.

(Extension > lynching for information (every lynch gives information) > no lynch (free scum kill with nothing new to go off of))

Somethin' strikes me foul 'bout that last one. I be keepin' my eye on ye, Militant. Ye be waitin' for the ship's consensus before ye act, aye? Arr, ye not interested in stirrin' up no trouble, lad?

Yar, I be keepin' the black spot on Gremwell till our Cap'n gives us information on how long we be on deck. Then I be considerin' his fate again.

[Goatrevolt]

It would have been fun to keep up with pirate talk the entire game, but I'm far too lazy for that kind of dedication . I'll probably throw it in from time to time, though. There's something hugely satisfying about calling someone a wench.

Have you reconsidered since the deadline was confirmed?

I've been thinking about it, and I'm honestly not sure how to play this here.

Gremwell I'm certainly less suspicious of after I dropped my 2nd point against him. I still really dislike the "Oh No, we're down 2 townies with nothing to show!" talk, because that type of stuff is the kind of things scum are attracted to. It makes you look like you're out for the good of the town, without actually helping it in any way.

I'm suspicious of Erratus, and his recent Gremwell vote with lackluster reasoning is highly suspect.

Springlullaby is giving me all kinds of bad vibes; however, she is about the only poster in this game who is actively doing any kind of prodding/scum hunting, so I would prefer to give her a pass for now.

I'm going to look through Erratus then decide where to stick my vote.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't buy the way Goatrevolt attacked me for voting Gremwell. Feels like he was trying to set me up.

Vote: Goatrevolt

I found your vote suspicious, and said that I would review you. I ended up not getting around to it immediately, and the lynch happened in the meantime. I read through your posts anyway, and didn't really find anything conclusive either way. Nothing strong enough to want to lynch you over, at least.

However, you do need to back up your assertion that I was trying to "set you up." I have no idea what you're trying to imply with this.

As for today, I'm going to start with reading back through Jebus' posts and work from there. I disagree with clearing springlullaby based on her getting voted by Jebus. I don't see Crywolf making that play as scum, though, and would agree with the assessment that he's probably town.

[Goatrevolt]

Why are we planning on mass claiming? I don't think it's a very good idea.

1. We haven't outed any power roles yet. Mass claiming will be sure to do that for us.

2. The flavor is obscured enough that we won't be able to catch anyone on flavor. Crywolf tried to call Gremwell out as lying about his vanilla claim based on flavor, and was wrong. What's to say mass claiming won't just cause us to mislynch a couple vanilla townies based on the idea that their vanilla flavor is wrong?

[Goatrevolt]

I'm noting here that this is an exact parrot of what I have said on massclaim earlier, just with more words and presented differently.

Your point being? Must I present new and original reasons for opposing a mass claim?

But if it is decided that we should massclaim, I think Huntress and probably Goat should probably go high on that list.

FoS springlullaby

.

Assumption 1: You are opposing mass claim because you think it is anti-town to mass claim.

Assumption 2: You want the people you find the scummiest to claim first.

In other words, you think mass claiming is anti-town, thus the idea of opposing a mass claim would be pro-town. So why do you want the two people who agree with you that we should not mass claim to claim first? These are the two players who are supporting pro-town behavior based on your position.

I think you need to explain yourself here.

[Goatrevolt]

EBWOP:

Against Massclaim

[Goatrevolt]

Strawman, I'm not saying you are suspect for opposing massclaiming, I'm saying you repeating exactly was I said is scummy.

I expect town to have their own reasons, whether it is for or against massclaim.

This is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Let me ask you a question, do you expect town to come up with new and original reasons for voting every time they do? Even if someone has a really good reason to vote, if you can't think of a different valid reason, you best be looking for another suspect! I can't think of any reasons besides those two for opposing a mass claim. I'm not going to bother to try, because it's pointless, and unnecessary. Your logic makes it such that you are the only person who is not scummy in opposing a mass claim, so long as you are the first person to oppose it and come up with the main reasons to do so. Anyone else unable to find new ideas must therefore take a different stance or risk being scummy!

Also, based on your logic, can you give me one good reason why I shouldn't be voting you for post 195?

Finally, why are you not also suspicious of every player besides the first who supported the mass claim idea? They are all playing copycat to the player that suggested it in the first place.

On the other hand, scum often like to copy-cat town's opinion a) it is the safe thing to do because they fear expressing an opinion that outs them as having a different perspective than town b)in the event the town person is cardflipped, the copy-catting scum can claim associative town-ess ('look, I said the same thing as X, and X was town!').

This logic is flawed in so many ways.

1. Your assumption is that you're town. That's all well and good from your perspective, but I have no such information.

2. Your letter a) above is entirely wrong, because I'm currently supporting the minority opinion and made my post against mass claiming directly after a series of posts in favor of it. However, I'm going to again note that you have suggested that your perspective is the "town perspective." I'm going to again ask why you are trying to pressure people who are taking the "town perspective" rather than pursue those taking the opposite opinion?

3. Very rarely do people argue your b), nor do I see why anyone would be convinced by such arguments.

And you know what, I think your reaction and superficial logic is pretty telling here.

What was "telling" about my reaction? And you're the one using fishy logic here, not me.

I find your attack suspicious because it suggests insincerity in your beliefs. If you truly believed mass claiming was anti-town, then you would be pursuing the people pushing a mass claim for pushing something anti-town. Instead, you have taken to attacking the two people who agree with your opinion. Your reasoning for doing so is that they are trying to "copy-cat town opinion" when in reality the majority of the town is in favor of mass claiming. You're just paranoid about people copy-catting your own opinion.

Goatrevolt's 275 makes me happy with lynching him today. "We feel the same way about massclaim, so how can you find me scummy?" That's pure craplogic. I can not see Goatrevolt-town coming to the conclusion that springlullaby-town should give him and Huntress free passes for opposing massclaim.

Confirm vote: Goatrevolt

Nice strawman. I've given reasons why springlullaby's logic is poor.

I never said or suggested that Huntress or myself deserve free passes for opposing massclaim, which is where you strawman me. I think the fact that Springlullaby's only source of suspicion on me is the fact that I agreed with her stance is an extraordinarily weak case to push, especially if you look at her own post 195 in respect to me. I'm also suspicious of the mindset of a player who is pushing for the people who agree with her rather than the people who disagree with her. That speaks of lack of conviction in her beliefs.

[Goatrevolt]

The main point I have against Goatrevolt is that he cast suspicion on me D2 for my vote on Gremwell, but when I challenged on this point today, he took the path of least resistance.

Would you rather I lied and said I wanted to lynch you? I thought your vote was scummy because it was purely a deadline lynch with 2 days to go. You gave no opinion on Gremwell at all, and merely voted him to make a lynch. I reviewed your play and decided that was not enough to want to lynch you over.

Notice the wording of that last sentence: it implies he found something against me, but not convincingly so. Yet rather than question me about it or come out with it at all or even talk about why he found my vote suspicious in the first place, he just said he didn't want to lynch me. He's trying to avoid a fight with me.

I didn't find anything against you other than finding your vote suspicious. I didn't find anything pro-town about your play either. Other than your attack on me today, you've done very little all game, and I find you a tough player to read as is. I thought you were town in Pick a player until process of elimination + roleclaim nailed you. I'm not trying to avoid a fight with you, I simply have nothing to fight about.

Your case is that I'm scummy for not finding you scummy enough to pressure, which is ridiculous.

The implication you're making here is,

beyond all reasonable doubt

, that springlullaby should only be suspicious of people who support massclaim.

Wrong. More strawman. Springlullaby can be suspicious of people who support mass claim, but needs to have a better reason then "they agreed with me." I also want to know her stance on people who support mass claim. Do you not find it suspicious that springlullaby is opposed to mass claim, but she wants the two people who agree with her to go first? If she truly was firm in her opinion that mass claiming is anti-town, then why is she basing her suspicion on me strictly off of me following what is, in her opinion, a pro-town plan. The "copy-cat" explanation is pure nonsense. Players copy-cat constantly. Hell, she voted Gremwell based on nothing more than my case on day 2. That's just as much if not more copy-catting than what she's accusing me of.

I'm entirely justified in finding this suspicious and pushing for more information from this. What specifically about me copy-catting her makes her suspicious while she ignores every other time it happens during the game? These are questions it's worth getting the answer to.

The rest of your post is also scummy. You attack springlullaby for pushing "an extraordinarily weak case" but then turn around and attack her for a "lack of conviction in her beliefs". So you expect a townie pushing an extraordinarily weak case to have more conviction than normal? Yeah right, you're just pushing a shit case.

This is crap logic. The extraordinarily weak case applies to her attack on me. Lack of conviction in her beliefs applies to the mindset behind why she would attack me regarding the mass claim issue. Weak case = push on me. Lack of conviction = mass claim. Those are two completely separate things. Attempting to tie them together to paint me as scummy is just bad logic. Lack of conviction in her beliefs

regarding mass claim

is my best guess as to why she would push a case on me, which was weak. Do you see how one precedes the other, and how you can't pair these together like you've tried?

The 2nd part of your paragraph doesn't make any sense. Your assumption is that Springlullaby knew she was making a weak case on me, and thus didn't have much conviction in it. Why would springlullaby push a case she knows is exceptionally weak? The answer is that she wouldn't (unless she is scum). So the logical assumption is that springlullaby didn't think her case was weak. The "exceptionally weak" part is my words describing the logical backing to her case. Your paragraph rips that out of context and uses it as her own mindset when constructing it. Logic fail.

---------------------------

I'm not sure what to think about your push on me. I think you had a reasonable original point (about me "setting you up." I can see how you could jump to that conclusion), but your attempts to bolster your case with bad logic and strawman arguments raises an eyebrow.

---------------------------

Finally, I will stress one more time how bad of an idea I think mass claim is. Anyone in favor needs to look at my (or springlullaby's ) reasons for opposing it and explain exactly why you think those reasons are lacking. Furthermore, I'll mention that my opposition to mass claim is also based on my own role PM in addition to the points laid out.

[Goatrevolt]

You say that like your only options were to push for my lynch or drop it altogether.

No, those weren't my only options, but if I'm not interested in pursuing you to lynch, then I'm going to focus my time on people I do want to see lynched.

So you saw something suspicious about me, looked back and found me hard to read, and then decided it would be best to just drop the subject? That's 200% preposterous. How do you expect to get a read on me by dropping the subject?

Do you have a read on everyone in the game? If there is anyone you are unsure on, could you pressure them with questions right now? Not pressing information from people you are unsure on is scummy.

There are many ways to get a read on you. One such is to simply wait and see how you play things out. If you continue to play under the radar, then eventually I'd want to lynch you for just that, but not on day 2.

All in all, you're stretching quite a bit here. Your entire case is built around the premise that despite me not wanting to lynch you, I should have been pressuring you anyway. Or that I backed down because I was scared of getting in a fight with you. You've played with me as both town and scum, when have you seen me afraid to confront someone?

That's a lot of important details about your suspicion on springlullaby that you conveniently left out of 275. Not the kind you'd accidentally omit, unless you regularly forget half your case.

I brought that up in 275, springlullaby answered that post, and then I've posted the rest in relation to the answer she gave. You're accusing me of omitting something that hadn't even occurred yet...

"Raises an eyebrow"?

Certainly. You've strawmanned me every step along the road, and are trying to stretch minor points (me not pressuring you even though I didn't want to lynch you) into something big to justify your vote. I wasn't suspicious of you attacking me originally, but I am definitely suspicious of you trying to stretch your case into something more than it actually is.

[Goatrevolt]

Finally, I will stress one more time how bad of an idea I think mass claim is. Anyone in favor needs to look at my (or springlullaby's ) reasons for opposing it and explain exactly why you think those reasons are lacking. Furthermore, I'll mention that my opposition to mass claim is also based on my own role PM in addition to the points laid out.

I want everyone whose name isn't Huntress or springlullaby to respond to this. If you're going to support mass claim, I want to see you refute the reasons why we shouldn't.

2/3 of this game is saying nothing right now. You can start contributing by addressing this.

[Goatrevolt]

Why are we planning on mass claiming? I don't think it's a very good idea.

1. We haven't outed any power roles yet. Mass claiming will be sure to do that for us.

And then the doc knows who to protect. I'm willing to bet there's a doc, given last night's kill.

If this were in any sense true, then town would mass claim day 1 in every single game. There are reasons this doesn't happen.

The reason this is completely flawed is that a single mafia roleblocker can completely invalidate absolutely everything you just said. They block the doc and kill whomever the doc should be protecting. Even if the mafia don't have a roleblocker, they can kill the doc and then kill the other power roles later on.

Either way, mass claiming tells the scum exactly who they should kill and how they should play. If there is a doc, they are doing quite fine on their own, and there's no reason to expose them. If we want information from town power roles, I suggest we let them decide themselves when they want to claim it.

I feel that mass claiming is only really good in 3 situations (generally).

1. Poorly designed setup where the scum can't fake claim and will get outed.

2. We're looking for 1 more scum and want to get all the info out there to narrow it down.

3. It's Lylo or close too it, and we need everything on the table to not lose.

Day 3, with one scum dead, and 0 town power roles outed is not the time for it.

[Goatrevolt]

Goatrevolt, I think your reaction is kinda too defensive too early, which is quite scummy: I haven't made a case against you yet. Guilty conscience at play?

Ah, the ol' attack me then call me scummy for defending myself strategy. This is completely meaningless outside of context. Unless you know that I'm the kind of player who is overdefensive as scum, but not as town, this is null. Defending oneself is not scummy. Overdefensive is entirely subjective and entirely based on previous knowledge. You can't call me overdefensive unless you know how I generally defend against attacks as town and then you point out the differences in how I've defended here. Maybe I'm overdefensive compared to how

you

defend yourself, but I don't see how that means anything in terms of

my

alignment.

So, here's the breakdown. You call me scummy for parroting you. I defend myself and turn the tables back on you. You ignore my response and any questions I presented to you, instead simply opting to call me scummy for being overdefensive. It's a nice way to keep suspicion on me without having to actually engage me or maintain solid logic, though, I will give you that.

I still think massclaim could have waited another day, but seeing that Clock is saying that he is claiming no matter what, and that the only two people beside me that are against massclaim so far are people I suspect, I will switch my vote in two days if the issues is still undecided.

I don't know if this is scummy or just ridiculous. You push against mass claim, two people agree with you, those people become people you suspect, and now you're opposed to mass claim as a result. You certainly weren't very strong in that opinion.

The fact that clockwork is claiming no matter what has zero relevance as to whether or not everyone should claim. Using that as a reason to go along with mass claim is faulty.

I assume clockwork is claiming because he has a reason to. Either he has information he needs to share with the town, or a role he wants public for some reason. That is perfectly fine. Why does that mean that everyone needs to claim? We've already seen that flavor is a point against mass claiming. Making information public is not pro-town right now. We get a small amount of information now, at the cost of giving scum complete knowledge on how to play. I'd rather wait, leave the scum in the dark, and let our power roles do their jobs longer before coming out with it.

All we are doing is outing power roles for no gain. If these power roles have information to benefit the town, they can just claim like clockwork is going to do! Why are we prematurely outing them?

---------

Springlullaby: I want to hear your response to the questions I asked you.

[Goatrevolt]

Right now I'm reading that Huntress, Clockwork, Crywolf, and Militant are town, and I don't want to lynch any of those.

Springlullaby I'm iffy on. I really want to hear her response to the questions I posed to her, and not the continued dodging. Either way, I'm not confident enough here to want to lynch her today, and I'd only vote to do so if it came down to her against one of the people I have as town.

That leaves Erratus and Random Gem. I'm willing at this point to lynch either of those.

I think Erratus' jump on me early in the day made sense, but since then he has used some pretty poor logic to stretch his case into more than it was. I also think his logic for wanting to mass claim is really poor. I would expect a better logical argument from him, which leads me to believe that he is supporting mass claim either because it benefits scum or it allows him to easily fit in with the town, not because of the logical merits of doing so.

Lynching RandomGem kind of sucks because he has provided us with nothing all game (as either player), so we don't have much to go off of from his lynch specifically. However, he needs to be lynched for lurking at some point, as he is a huge liability to town in endgame regardless of his alignment. I think there's a decent shot he's scum as well, simply based on process of elimination. I'll wait and see what happens with the replacement first, though.

Vote Erratus Apathos

[Goatrevolt]

People, Goat is definitely scum. He begins by calling everyone who might vote for him town. RG is AWOL and I'm definitely voting for Goat, but everyone else could potentially vote for him - so he calls them all townies. He even calls springlullaby a bad lynch, despite nothing changing since his day-long attack on her. Clear attempt to buddy up.

I'm calling people town who I think are town. I can go through and explain why for each player, if it is necessary.

As for Springlullaby, I'm not sold on her right now, which is why I want to hear her response to me. Either she continues to dodge and I vote her, or she gives an answer, and I can evaluate it. I think she's a bad lynch today because I don't have a clear read yet, but I would rather lynch her than the people I have as town.

Goat calls spring a bad lynch because he's not convinced and wants to hear more from her. Basically, he just wants to put off her lynch. That makes some sense - until you realize that it'd make a lot more sense to put off a lynch of RG for the same reasons. With nothing on him and an impending replacement, it's nonsense that he'd cast aside his springlullaby case for "continued dodging" but support a flaker lynch today.

That's why I'm voting you. Did you not read my post? I said I was going to hold off on RG until we hear about the replacement situation.

And his case against me is pretty much just the phrase "poor logic" written over and over. For someone talking about poor logic that much, he conveniently avoids showing any flaws in it. That's not just poor logic, that's scum logic.

Read through my posts today. I've repeatedly pointed out where your logic has failed. This shouldn't be a surprise.

[Goatrevolt]

Guys this is pathetic. I've had to use my One-Shot Deadline-Extending ability (for being a replacement) even though I don't need it. Personally, i'd like a Goat wagon, but i'll vote Huntress if it comes down to her and EA.

Vote Goat

Why me?
Why Huntress?
Why not EA?

This doesn't come as a huge surprise, since my guess at the scum team right now would be you and EA, but still, some explanations here would be appreciated.

[Goatrevolt]

Guya, you should be thanking me for extending it. If I was scum, I could have just not mentioned it and let a townie be lynched, or NL which helps scum. I have played with both EA and Goat before and that is why I think what I rhnk./

If your read on me is based on meta, then you should be explaining it. Also, trying to meta me off of one game you played with me, which was my first game on this site, and where you weren't able to correctly read me seems rather weak. An explanation beyond this is in order.

The "I could have just not extended argument" only goes so far. At the time, EA and Huntress were tied at 2 votes each. If you're scum and either of those two is a scum buddy then it's to your benefit as scum to extend the deadline and try to move the lynch away from them. Seeing as my belief is that you and EA are scum, and you came into the thread willing to lynch the two "non-EA" players on the plate I'm not exactly going to give you townie points for it. If you truly believe that it is pro-town, then I suggest you give me some townie cred, because I did the exact same thing when I replaced in.

[Goatrevolt]

Third Goat's post above is very scummy, no lynch would have benefitted scum more.

Actually, that brings up a good question. I've been operating under the assumption that at deadline the player with the most votes gets lynched, but it's possible no lynch happens instead. If so, then I will admit that Xtoxm's action was pro-town. Otherwise, what I said makes perfect sense.

Mod: If nobody has reached majority at deadline, who is lynched?

And wow, Cult + SK? Why wasn't any of this information stated earlier? That changes things up a lot.

For one, that means that Jebus was most likely killed by the serial killer, not a town vig (what I assumed) or paranoid gun owner (what others thought????).

Secondly, that brings up the question of why wasn't Clockwork recruited? One explanation is that he's the SK and can't be recruited. Another is that since he's essentially the cop in this setup (finds the cult leader or SK) that he's too pro-town to be swung. I'm leaning the latter presently, as I'm not seeing true scum motivations behind his play. The thing that bothers me is that he was given the option to accept.

Xtoxm: I think you need to explain how you know this information.

Others: We should review everyone's reaction to mass claim. I think that will be meaningful. Who would benefit from mass claim in this setup and who was pushing for it?

I wish we had another week to sort this out before a lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

Xtoxm: First of all, I'd like you to answer some of the questions I had asked you (your meta on me, etc.).

Secondly, I want more information on your role now that it's out in the open. How does it work? Are you simply given information every night or is it an ability you have to activate? How do you know it's a SK making the kills as opposed to mafia? Do you specifically have any information on a cult or are you just basing that off of Clockwork's claim?

I don't want to lynch Crywolf or Militant, although if I had to, I'd lynch Militant over Crywolf. I'd only vote them to avoid the alternative of no lynch. I'd much prefer to lynch Erratus or Springlullaby. I'm not sure on Xtoxm yet. Much of my opinion there will probably be based off of how he responds to my questions.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't really understand exactly why I'm being lynched. Xtoxm is pushing me from a meta read that he hasn't explained and shouldn't be relevant either, considering he's played 1 game with me, I was scum in that game, and my play in this game has been absolutely nothing like it. I asked him for clarification twice on it, and he has not explained it. Apparently now I'm being pushed as scummy for asking Xtoxm questions on his claim. Sorry for not immediately accepting it. For the record, I asked him those questions because if his ability was an activated ability, I was going to vote him since his predecessor's were inactive and should not have been around to submit them. Since he "just gets told" I'm willing to give him a pass for now.

I think Erratus is scum. I wasn't sure on him after yesterday, and I thought he came into today fairly pro-town, despite the fact that he was pushing for my lynch. However, as the day has continued he's been pushing worse and worse logic to try to bolster his case against me. He's trying to create more to it than there really is, in order to get others aboard. In addition, his logic for supporting mass claim was awful. I don't see Erratus coming to those conclusions as town. Now that we know the cult recruits, and that they cannot recruit officers, I think Erratus is a good bet for Cult Leader. Mass claim had the potential to wreck us, based on what we now know. People could have easily claimed officer/non-officer without any realization of the implications of it. So when I see Erratus supporting this with awful logic, it reconfirms my belief that he is scum.

As for Springlullaby, I seriously don't know whether or not she is scum or just really paranoid town. I've personally experienced that same mentality as town before, where I'm suspecting of people who agree with me. However, it only happens when I'm not strong in my beliefs in the first place. If I strongly believe something to be the correct path of action, and someone else agrees, I do not suspect them for that alone. If I'm weak in a belief, I question myself, and thus also others who agree. The problem is that I can also see this mentality as scum. As scum you are not strong in your beliefs, because they are wrong. Hence, you would be "suspicious" of people who agree with your wrong ideas.

For now, though, I'm leaning scum on Springlullaby simply based on two factors.

1. Hypocrisy. She just accused me a second time of parroting her post--338 parroting 335. Read both of those posts again. While there is minor overlap in what we say, I'd hardly call it a parrot. I have many different points in my post and discuss different topics altogether. Even if my post was a direct parrot of her post, she still needs to establish why that is scummy. She gave an answer, I responded to it with a strong reason why it was wrong, and she has not responded to that, despite my constant prodding.

The reason there is hypocrisy here, is that people have been parroting each other all throughout the thread,

including SL parroting my own reasoning on pushing Gremwell

! She needs to explain why my parroting is scummy, and why other parroting is not. She needs to really explain herself here, because it is near impossible to go through a game of mafia without someone parroting someone else at some point during the game. Trying to use this as a point of basis to suspect someone is awful. It happens every game, and there's no real correlation between two players agreeing and restating each others points, and the person who agrees being scum. I have asked her to answer these questions and more quite a few times and she continues to refuse. The fact that she's attacking me for parroting her ideas, and refuses to address the fact that she earlier on parroted my ideas and how that relates is just ridiculous.

Secondly, she continues to dodge the questions I presented to her. Of course, it doesn't matter if she answers those questions, as they obviously don't make for a good case on her anyway.

I don't think any of the questions I haven't answered to make for a good case.

This is ridiculous. I'm trying to scum hunt, pushing you for information, pushing xtoxm for information, etc. and the end result is both of you not answering my questions and instead lynching me?

Look through the thread. How do my actions benefit me as scum? How do my actions suggest that I am scum? I'm one of the only players actually trying to scum hunt, but apparently I managed to step on enough toes to get lynched.

If you guys are being genuine, you will have no problem in formulating a proper case first. Then I'll answer it.

Where is your proper case on me?

[Goatrevolt]

I'm going to claim that I'm a power role, but I'm not going to claim what it is. Part of the reason I opposed mass claim (despite it being anti-town) was because my own role becomes much less useful if exposed. I even pointed that out, but nobody responded to it, or even acknowledged it.

I think we really should be lynching Erratus, although I would also support a Springlullaby lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

Xtoxm: While you are here, mind answering:

Xtoxm is pushing me from a meta read that he hasn't explained and shouldn't be relevant either, considering he's played 1 game with me, I was scum in that game, and my play in this game has been absolutely nothing like it. I asked him for clarification twice on it, and he has not explained it.

I think Huntress is a bad lynch. She's established very pro-town behavior throughout the game thus far.

[Goatrevolt]

I think the way you went about claiming was fairly townie, which is why I'm backing off. As for your role itself, I don't see it as being an alignment indicator at all. A role that knows how kills were made is easy to fake if: A. You're a SK making the kills. B: You're part of a mafia team that doesn't control a kill.

[Goatrevolt]

You gotta be kidding me. I had a post typed up and accidentally closed out of the freaking tab. This post was monstrous in length. Grr...

Well, I was planning on claiming today anyway.

I'm the helmsman. I have a 1 shot ability where I can steer the ship into a squall and prevent any night abilities from being used that night. I used this ability last night for many different reasons, which I can elaborate on if needed.

But yes, I was blocked, and my 1 shot was used up.

I see Clockwork is also claiming to be blocked. I'm guessing his block was the result of the mafia. My block was obviously the result of Militant. The lack of a night kill I'm going to attribute to the scum trying to kill me last night.

Basically, there are two possibilities. Either I'm lying and tried to make a kill last night that was blocked by Militant, or I'm telling the truth and was the target of an attempted kill.

I think if you're willing to take the time and examine the situation, it's quite obvious which one is true. I didn't want to mass claim because I didn't want to expose my role. The role I have is extremely powerful, but is only 1 shot. It is so much more useful if it remained unclaimed. By claiming my role I give the scum perfect opportunities to roleblock me, or play around my ability. I mean, just consider last night. If you assume for a second that I'm telling the truth, then the scum would have roleblocked Clockwork and shot me. But hey, my ability would have been used, preventing the kill attempt on myself. Can you imagine the confusion that would have created for the scum? So much useful information would have been generated from nothing more than how people reacted to last night.

In addition, I think I set myself up to be the Night Kill for last night, which was going to be fine, since I had the trump card up my sleeve. I claimed to have a power role, but refused to claim it based on the idea that it was more powerful unclaimed. I was also strongly opposed to a mass claim. I have no idea what the scum thought I was, but it obviously was something they didn't want around.

I think if you're willing to take the time to read through my posts this game you will see that I'm telling the truth here. And to be honest, I think that we are in complete control of this game. I had a whole huge other bit typed up going through each player and my thoughts on them, but that got lost. I'll retype it up later.

[Goatrevolt]

Ok, so here's a rundown of what we have left:

Militant

- His claim fits perfectly with his play. He alluded to having a pro-town power role and he does. For the record, I had him on my town list yesterday simply because he stated on a few occasions that he wanted to mass claim because he had a pro-town role that would clear him. The way he went about that seemed very townie.

Verdict- Town

Clockwork Ruse

- I have some skepticism over him being roleblocked two nights in a row by different roleblockers. It's something I want to look into. Besides that, I think his claim and the way he went about it was fairly pro-town. For now I'm fine with signing off on him.

Verdict - Probably town

.

Crywolf

- She calls out Gremwell on the basis of his vanilla claim not matching the flavor on hers. Quite frankly, I don't see scum pulling a move like this. If she's scum, then she'd have to be making a bold-faced lie. What scum make a bold-faced lie to get someone lynched who is already going to be lynched? It doesn't really make sense.

Verdict - Town

Huntress

- I think her claim is fine. I think her play has been very pro-town throughout.

Verdict - Town

Xtoxm

. His role claim is alignment-neutral. The way he went about making it strikes me as pro-town though. I didn't like his call to hammer me without bothering to hear a claim out of me. On the other hand, he didn't need to give us an extension as scum. I'm not entirely sold here, but for now I'm inclined to write him off as town

Veridct - Probably town

Erratus Apathos

- Pushed for a mass claim yesterday, but had weak logic to back up why he was in support of it. That's not the type of play I expect from EA. Pushed me as scum for a legitimate reason, but then added on additional reasoning that was weak or meaningless. He was trying to make his case into more than it really was, and I find that suspect. Based on process of elimination and his play, I really think he is mafia.

Verdict - Scum

.

Springlullaby

- Has constantly avoided answering any of my questions. Her excuse was that they don't amount to enough to build a case on her. Seriously? I'm glad she can make that judgment. She then votes me without any underlying case. Her hypocrisy and constant dodging of questions leads me to believe she is scum.

Verdict - Scum

.

---------------

I really only have 2 scum suspects, Springlullaby and Erratus Apathos. Xtoxm I can see as a possibility, but not something I'm interested in pushing quite yet. Clockwork I want to look into as well, but I'm not interested in pursuing him quite yet. I think there is solid evidence to believe that everyone else is town, which is why I think we're in complete control of this game.

I'm guessing Erratus Apathos is the mafia leader, and Springlullaby is the Serial Killer, which fits based on their positions on mass claiming. If EA is the mafia leader and can recruit people, he wants to know what options he has, especially if he doesn't have a guaranteed recruit on officers. EA's inability to solidly defend his pro-mass claim stance sticks out to me.

I think our lynch today needs to be one of those two, and then we'll play it by ear after that.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, were you told you were unsuccessful?

Yes.

Vote: Goatrevolt

I'm a tracker (boatswain). Goat targeted Jebus night 2.

Huntress targeted nobody last night, and I investigated her predecessor on the first night but did not get a result.

Shenanigans.

Vote Erratus Apathos

Erratus is lying. Before you hammer me, take one second to consider the game. Does EA's play make sense from the perspective of him being a tracker? If he legitimately had a result on me killing Jebus, why the hell would he not claim it yesterday? Instead, he pushed a weak case on me, resulting in a no lynch. Is that pro-town in any sense of the word? Why would Erratus catch the Serial Killer as a tracker, AND THEN LET HIM LIVE?

He is obviously lying. Take a moment to objectively consider things a bit. His play makes no sense from the role that he claimed. This is the exact same thing that got Erratus killed as scum in the last game I played with him. He tried to claim a role, but it didn't make any sense based on his play throughout the game. That's exactly what he's doing again here.

Can any of you honestly say that you, as a tracker, would catch the Serial Killer and then do nothing about it? Unless that answer is yes (in which case I would ask that you re-examine your playstyle), then Erratus is obviously scum.

One thing I don't get is why he would throw himself away to lynch me, unless he is part of a scum group that wins from doing this. I think it is imperative that we lynch him today, because most assuredly he wouldn't pull a move like this unless he wins otherwise.

----

I'll answer other questions in a second. I just had to get this bit out first.

[Goatrevolt]

Well I see where you're coming from, but I didn't really consider it because of CR backing him up...

Well i'll

Unvote

but i'm not sure I see a way EA can be scum.

CR is probably a scum buddy. Does it make any sense from a game design standpoint for officers to have an option to either accept or decline an offer to mutiny?

The only time I've ever seen recruitment in a game it has been designed in such a way that recruitment is successful on X, Y, Z and will fail on Q, E. I've never seen it in such a way that a choice is given.

I'm also skeptical of CR based on the idea of him getting roleblocked again. That is my main reason for expressing suspicion of his claim today. Has anyone else been roleblocked? The reason I'm skeptical is because his play makes complete sense from the perspective of him getting recruited. He gets recruited. Then the following night he mysteriously is roleblocked (from a roleblocker nobody has seen before), preventing his role from providing any pro-town help.

[Goatrevolt]

Well we don't really have time to massclaim today. We need to focus on today's lynch.

I'm still happy with Goat lynch but will change over to Huntress if necessary.

Unvote, Vote: Huntress

I haven't gone through everything yet, but these two posts alone from yesterday should be enough to prove that EA is lying.

Keep in mind this is from the perspective that he's a tracker who caught a serial killer. He first holds back from mass claiming because we ran out of time. That's mistake number 1. If he was telling the truth, he would either push to get a claim out of me, or claim himself to get a lynch yesterday on me.

Secondly, he has powerful evidence to believe that I'm the serial killer...and yet he's willing to swap over to vote Huntress if necessary? Because that makes sense...

[Goatrevolt]

How do you know you were blocked last night?

I was told by the mod. He informed me that I was blocked and that my 1 shot had been used up.

Wouldn't a global block supercede an individual block? Why do you think it was Militant and not you that stopped the kill or kills last night? If it was you then that would account for the block on Clockwork too. Your assumption that you would have been the target of any kills also seems a bit odd.

I know it wasn't me that stopped the kill and it wasn't me that blocked CR, because I was told by the mod that my action got blocked last night.

As for a global block superceding an individual block, that's purely up to the mod.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to go for someone there was less chance of lynching? Or for someone who, in view of your soft claim, had less chance of being protected?

For all purposes, the scum could have easily assumed I was the doc. I mean, I argued against Erratus on the idea that a doc should come out, and then said on multiple occasions that I was a pro-town role who didn't want to come out.

As for your other point, that they wouldn't want to kill someone who had a chance of being lynched, my argument is "what chance was there that I would be lynched if I had a confirmable town power role?" None, really.

That begs the question, who do you mean by "we"?

(Sorry, just couldn't resist it!)

. The town, obviously. I'm going to retract my statement about being in control, though, because Erratus' play only makes sense if he is part of a scum group that would win tonight after a mislynch.

Well i'll Unvote but i'm not sure I see a way EA can be scum.

Look back and see that he has to be lying about his tracker claim based on his play. Then realize that he would only lie like that if he was scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Here's a look at a couple more posts from yesterday.

Keep in mind, the point of view is that Erratus is pro-town and saw me target Jebus, who was scum and got shot. I'm going to show how that makes no sense.

Post 248

: Erratus pushes me as scum and votes for me. This is one of the first posts of the day before Clockwork claims.

If you were a pro-town tracker, and you tracked a player who targeted dead scum, wouldn't you assume they were the vigilante? If he's pro-town here, he has no indication that the mafia don't control a kill or that there is even a SK in the game.

Why would you come into the thread and immediately vote for someone you tracked performing the pro-town action of killing scum? That makes absolutely no sense. Erratus continues to push his case on me throughout the day, despite having tracked me shoot scum.

Post 310

: Actually, this post still comes before Clockwork's claim, which makes it less suspicious. This is the post where EA mentions he's willing to swap to Huntress. This post is less suspicious, however, it makes:

Post 325

: Much more suspicious. After Clockwork claims that the scum recruit and do not control a kill, then Erratus swaps his vote over to Huntress. Really? I mean he did track me targeting the dead Jebus right? Or was that just a lie he made up? Because honestly, after Clockwork claimed he should have been pushing hard for my lynch based on his alleged "role information" but instead he opted to move his vote to Huntress.

-----

EA didn't play at all yesterday in a way that makes sense based on the information town knew and the results he got from his role. The only logical assumption is that he's lying scum. He wouldn't have pushed me as scum immediately, because he would have assumed I was the vigilante, not scum. He sees me target scum who dies that night. With only 1 kill per night, he would not have been able to logically assume there was a serial killer. So what did he think I was? What scum role did he assume I was that I targeted another scum buddy, who still managed to die? Quite frankly, this makes no sense.

Finally, after Clockwork claims his role information, then EA's assumption should have immediately been that I was the Serial Killer. Instead, he unvotes me and votes Huntress, giving no indication whatsoever to how he feels about Clockwork's claim. Again, this doesn't make sense based on the role information EA was supposed to have.

--------

I also noticed some other interesting stuff while reading through yesterday's posts pertaining to Clockwork, and how he relates to EA. I'll point that out later on when I have time to compose it all. The point is that his actions don't make sense either. He came into the thread yesterday wanting EA to claim and pushing for mass claim. At the end of the day, he was very opposed to lynching EA, but didn't explain what had changed. Now today he reveals that EA was the person he had investigated to be an officer. So why was he pushing for EA to claim then in the first place? It doesn't make sense.

[Goatrevolt]

Well, firstly, you are trying to outguess the mod with this whole "Chances of there being a choice to being recruited = nil" little tangent you had. Oh, and if EA is the SK and I had been recruited, we wouldn't be buddies. At least it seems that way to me. It looks like we've got a cult and an SK.

I don't think EA is the SK. I think he's mafia. I can't think of any reason why a SK would throw themselves away like this with 8 players alive. I could see a cult who's on the brink of winning doing so, though.

Second, would it make sense for me to come out and tell the town that we have a cult if I was culted? What benefit would there be in that?

I don't know the answer to that question. It's something I'm thinking about. I'll discuss this when I write up my thoughts on you.

Third, I believed EA's claim for other reasons. But I do see where you are coming from in your last post. It's possible that EA was culted. The note I received says that the culted's roles and powers stay the same, their alignment just changes. So I can see where it would make sense that would happen.

Which note? The one that recruited you?

I also want to hear your response to my suspicions from my previous post. Why would you push EA to claim if you had investigated him to be an officer? Later on in the day, you were strongly opposed to him being lynched, presumably because you knew he was an officer. So why push him as scum and want him to claim first?

Goat, why are you so sure there isn't a RBer or something of the sort if everyone hasn't claimed yet? Chances could be good that the Cult has some form of RBer.

It's certainly possible. The reason I questioned it is based on convenience (if you were recruited, it's convenient that you were roleblocked and could provide nothing to benefit town). Since nobody else so far has claimed to be roleblocked by this other roleblocker I find it suspicious. Also, I was skeptical simply because of the number of scum required to have that happen.

That reminds me that I need to review all the claims in order of when things happened to work everything out.

[Goatrevolt]

I was gunning for Goat early and constantly D2. Apart from a short vote on Huntress, I can't even remember NOT gunning for Goat D2. I don't see how Goat can forget this easily.

Forget what? Yes, you were gunning for me, but not in any way that makes sense.

You claimed to see me target Jebus, who was scum and died that night. Despite this, you pushed for me as scum. I've explained already why this does not fit the mentality of a pro-town player. If you are town, there has been only 1 kill per night. The natural assumption is simple: There is a scum group who has been killing every night. When you see a member of that scum group die, and a player target them, you assume it's a vig who shot them. Why would you assume there is a serial killer with only 1 kill per night? That isn't logical.

I'm going to go out of my way here. I'm going to give you the ridiculous benefit of the doubt and assume that you ACTUALLY would believe me to be a serial killer, despite how absurd that actually is. If that were the case, why would you switch votes to Huntress AFTER Clockwork claimed information that would fit your idea of me as a serial killer? No, sir. You've just been given information to fit your idea of me as a serial killer, so you swap votes to someone else? Bullshit.

Your claim doesn't fit your play. Thanks for overextending yourself to try to get me lynched. I appreciate it. Now, could we get some rope, please?

How could the scum group win with the serial killer still alive? This only makes sense if you're the serial killer.

Say there are 3 scum alive. You get a mislynch today, and the serial killer shoots a townie. You win.

Say the serial killer even shoots scum. You still make out fine. You got rid of me, at the cost of yourself, who was probably going to be high on the list of players to lynch after I came up town, anyway.

Either way, doing this creates a mislynch on me, which is beneficial for you even in the worst case scenario.

That's not a mistake, that's being realistic. In 646, it took bloody forever for five players with one lurker to massclaim. Eight players with three lurkers (before xtoxm replaced one) massclaiming in four days is impossible, much less picking out a lynch afterwards.

Nice misdirect. So why didn't you claim your information yourself? Or why didn't you suggest you had role related reasons to extract a claim from me? Lurkers being unable to mass claim completely skirts the question, which is why didn't you personally claim your information?

Powerful evidence or not, keeping my vote on an implausible lynch close to deadline is stupid. (Gee, this argument sounds familiar )

Right. So you think I'm the serial killer, and rather than claim that information to the town, you swap votes to another target because your weak case on me isn't enough to garner support. That makes total sense from a town perspective .

If you were the vig, it would not make sense for you to kill Jebus. You attacked the lurkers (lurkers at the time being humscunter, crywolf, militant, and PlaysWithSquirrels), and later decided to keep your eye on militant, springlullaby, and me. But you never once mentioned Jebus. That is decidedly not how vigs play.

That is exactly how vigs play. Vigs oftentimes shoot under the radar players who they have difficulty getting a read on.

This is quite the nice explanation post facto to cover the gaping holes in your story though.

I mean, I know when I'm town and I track someone shooting scum, my first instinct is this: "Despite no information in the thread to support this, the mafia probably don't control a kill, so this is the work of a serial killer, and he ended up shooting scum this time. I'm going to push him with a weak case, and show willingness to hop to other targets around lynch time. In fact, if someone else were to present information to support my theory, I would follow that information by directly changing my vote to another target, even though my information just was proven correct. In no situation should I claim, because my tracker role is too valuable to expose to get rid of the serial killer. Instead I'm going to wait until someone else claims, and then I'm going to claim afterwards."

I'm not sure about what the rest of you naturally think. Please enlighten me.

EA, why did you sit on this investigation?

I thought I could get Goat lynched without claiming.

Just ignore his vote change to Huntress. He was just doing that to throw me off his track! Even with his vote on Huntress, he was still doing all he could before deadline to get me lynched. Of course, claiming was out of the question, though.

[Goatrevolt]

Helloooooooooooo???

I shouldn't have to remind everyone that this game does have deadlines.

[Goatrevolt]

I think springlullaby is on vacation. She's posted on these forums recently, but hasn't posted in any of her games, so I'm not ready to burn her at the stake for that alone.

I think she's the SK. I don't think she fits with Erratus as scum, based on some earlier interactions, but much of her play leads me to believe she is scum anyway.

However, because of the way Erratus lied to get me lynched, I think the mafia are close to winning this game, and thus our lynch needs to be Erratus. The nature of EA's claim is such that if you mislynch me, it becomes obvious he is scum. He claimed to track me targeting a player. I've claimed a role that doesn't target anyone. If I get lynched and show up as town, it would have been obvious he was lying and thus he would have been the lynch tomorrow. Because of this, I don't think EA makes that play unless his team is really close to winning. 1-1 trades are usually bad for scum. He has to be the lynch today, otherwise we run the risk of just losing, even if we did lynch the SK.

We need to lynch mafia (EA) and then hope night actions work out to our favor (SK gets blocked. Mafia recruitment gets blocked. SK shoots scum, etc.)

[Goatrevolt]

If you're having any doubts that Goat is scum, just look at this shit. He's trying to argue that it's illogical to assume there's more than one scum group,

after a night when the only killed player was scum

! Can anyone here say, when you read Jebus's deathscene, that you didn't consider the possibility of another scumgroup?

I didn't. I'm not in the habit of randomly assuming multiple scum groups when there is only 1 kill per night. If I track someone shooting scum, my natural thought process is that they are probably the vig unless information in the thread would prove otherwise.

It seems your "natural thought process" was to assume Serial Killer despite the absurdity of it, but then swap targets after given information to suggest that actually being correct. Seems backwards.

No shit I wanted to lynch you more than Huntress! I made it clear that I was only switching to Huntress out of necessity, with three days to deadline and nobody joining me on your wagon.

You continue to dodge the heart of the matter. Quite simply, you claimed to track me kill Jebus, but didn't do anything about it. Your actions to me before clockwork's claim don't make sense with the information available to a town tracker. Your actions make even less sense after clockwork's claim. If you were legitimately a town tracker who tracked me shoot Jebus, you would have claimed and gotten me lynched after Clockwork's claim. You wouldn't have jumped to Huntress because nobody was buying your weak case.

If you can provide any kind of a legitimate reason why you wouldn't claim your role to get me lynched yesterday, be my guest. Instead you waited to claim your role until after Militant claimed, which was a completely useless time to claim. You didn't claim yesterday when it was important to do so. You did claim today when it was completely irrelevant. That doesn't make sense from the perspective of a town player. It makes a hell of a lot of sense from scum.

And then I either die or get roleblocked for the rest of the game, great idea! If I thought a 1 for 1 trade was optimal, I would've claimed first thing, not at the last minute.

Wow, seriously? This is your reason?

How many kills have we seen a night? 1. According to your claim you caught the person making those kills. If you claim, and get me lynched, then you don't have to worry about dying. In other words, your logic makes zero sense.

In addition, you were the one who was pushing for a mass claim. But here you say you didn't want to claim because you were worried about being roleblocked? Do I even need to say more about how his claim makes no sense?

People, it should be glaringly obvious that EA is scum by this point. He claimed to be a tracker, but only claimed this after militant made his claim. EA was pushing for mass claim yesterday, but today he says he didn't want to claim his role because he was worried about getting roleblocked. That right there is obvious proof he's lying. He claimed to track me killing Jebus, but then was willing to swap to Huntress AFTER clockwork makes his claim. More obvious proof. None of these actions make sense.

Please, if you are town and actually care whatsoever about winning this game listen to what I'm saying here. I've pointed out numerous inconsistencies in EA's story. Townies never have inconsistencies like this. You know why? Because they are town and they play to better the town. When you look through their actions, you see that they all make sense from the perspective of someone out to win for the town. Look at EA's actions. I've pointed out reasons why they don't make sense from someone actually playing a town tracker role.

Read through all my posts this game. If you can legitimately find a place where you don't think my play makes sense based on my claimed role then point it out. Can you legitimately find somewhere this game where you think I've been trying to push a scum agenda, or doing something anti-town? You won't find anything. It's because I'm town.

You have EA, whose play doesn't make sense based on his claim, and who has done pretty much nothing the entire game, except weakly push me and hop to targets at deadlines. On the other hand, I have been legitimately scum hunting, and I have a claimed role that fits with the way I've played this game.

@Xtoxm: You're jumping around a lot, and you are completely unwilling to vote EA and have been all game. Mind giving us actual reasons why you think he's town or are you his scum buddy? I've played 2 games with EA, one where he was scum and one where he was town. This looks nothing like his town play (the game I was scum, the game you were in as well. Don't you remember).

@Clockwork: I want to hear what you have to say about all this. Take a stand.

@Springlullaby: Claim is plausible, I'm thinking about it. What happens if you use your ability and stop a mislynch? Does it still go to night?

@Everyone else: Read. Think about it logically. Re-read through day 3 again and think about how you would have played the game if you were EA and a tracker. Pretend you didn't know about clockwork's claim until he makes the claim. Go back and play that out from a town perspective and you'll see how ridiculous his claim looks in light of his play.

[Goatrevolt]

Second here is the thing, on one hand I don't think EA's action makes sense atm, on the other I think Goat and Huntress shows up as linked which most probably indicates mafia given their claims.

Your entire argument is based on Huntress' unwillingness to lynch me. How does that make me scum? A fairly fundamental rule of mafia I've learned is to not link players until one of them is dead. Basing a lynch off of a supposed link between players is pretty meaningless. I could make up a link between two players in the game and use it as a basis to suggest we should lynch one of them. However, I haven't shown at all why that makes one of them more likely to be scum. For example, I can say something like: Militant doesn't want to lynch Crywolf, thus I think they are mafia together. That doesn't mean anything unless Crywolf dies and shows up as mafia. Then we can say "oh, Militant didn't want to lynch Crywolf, maybe he's her scum buddy", etc.

In essence, your argument is that you believe me to be mafia entirely from the perspective that you think Huntress is scum and Huntress didn't want to lynch me. What if Huntress is town? What if Huntress is scum and simply didn't want to dirty her hands with my mislynch? What if Huntress is scum and thought no lynch was better than a townie lynch? These are all perfectly plausible explanations.

Don't lynch me because you think Huntress is scum. That's bad logic. You think Huntress is scum: A. If Huntress is scum, then you think I'm scum: B. You can't do B before A, when B is reliant on the results from A.

Furthermore, EA's claim is that he tracked me targeting Jebus the night Jebus died. EA's "claim" paints me as the Serial Killer, not mafia. If you think EA is telling the truth with his claim, then I'm the SK, which makes any tie between me and Huntress meaningless. On the other hand, if you think EA is lying, then the only thing that makes sense is that he's part of the mafia, in which case it becomes obvious that I'm not also mafia. The only possible way I could be mafia is if I happened to be a mafioso with an ability, who also targeted Jebus the night he died, and EA is telling the truth about his claim despite the large number of inconsistencies. This is a very unlikely scenario.

Here, I'd like to see what Goat's has to say to that and his take on Huntress' action.

I'll have to review Huntress' actions, but I didn't find them scummy at the time. She waited for me to claim and then backed off when I claimed to be a power role. That seems fully normal play for town. I don't see how you could possibly consider this any scummier than EA's claim that he had information basically proving me to be a serial killer, but didn't claim it and even unvoted me to move to Huntress. If you think EA is town, then he is entirely to blame for the no lynch yesterday. He should have claimed his role and information when it became clear that he wasn't going to lynch me through conventional means. Instead he hopped to Huntress, hopped back to me later on, and then completely disappeared for a while until the no lynch happened.

He didn't claim information on me because he didn't have information on me, because he is lying. If EA is town he allowed no lynch to happen by not claiming his role. His response is that he didn't want to make himself a night kill target. This makes no sense. His role information was that I was the serial killer. He makes himself a night kill target by letting me live (especially because if I was actually the serial killer, who would I shoot? I'd shoot the guy trying to get me lynched). He alleviates himself as a night kill target by claiming so I die, thus preventing me from killing him. How would he be a night kill target if he gets us to lynch the person making the night kills? Can I make it any clearer than this that he is scum? There is no defensible stance he can take to explain the way he acted. Unless you believe EA to be an extraordinarily bad mafia player, there is simply no way he can be town and make these plays.

I seriously don't know why EA is still alive at this point. There are so many inconsistencies in his story. If you are a town aligned player, I don't see how you could be voting for anyone other than EA. Also, this lynch has to be either me or EA. One of us is lying and is scum. I think it's quite obvious who that is, but I've explained that in far more words than I thought it was going to have to take.

To answer your questions succinctly, springlullaby, I think your case pairing Huntress and myself is very circumstantial. What if Huntress is town? Your entire theory that I'm scum with her falls apart. There are also plenty of explanations where Huntress could be scum and I could still be town. I think this would be a very weak reason to lynch me (essentially lynching me because you think someone else is scum), especially in the face of the overwhelming evidence of EA lying. Once EA is dead and shows up as scum, it will then be clear that your pairing of Huntress and myself is not right, because I no longer make sense as mafia.

Yes, it still goes to night.

Unfortunate. If the scum manage to con enough people into lynching me today, I would ask that you use it on me. This will confirm you have your role and it is what you claim it to be. Actually, you should use it on the first town player that would get lynched from here on out. If you do not do this, the rest of the town should immediately lynch you the following day.

If you legitimately have this role, then I think it's quite likely that you are town. You should use it first opportunity to both confirm this and keep another townie alive.

First I want a deadline extension please, and everybody should be voting for it right now.

I'll second this call.

Deadline extension please

. Quite frankly, though, we shouldn't need a deadline. This lynch is between me and EA. One of us should have been lynched days ago, but the lurking this game is absolutely ridiculous, and most of the people guilty are those I consider town, which is sad. If you are lurking and are town, you are seriously costing us the game. Get in here. Read the game. Do something useful. Or get replaced. If you're not willing to actually read the game or put any effort in to it, please just get replaced, so someone else who actually cares can take your spot.

---

About Clockwork Ruse: Him claiming the information about the cult seems pro-town, but there are two issues that I can't get past. The first is that he was given the option to accept, which is kind of fishy. The second is his push on EA early in the day, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since clockwork inspected EA and saw him to be an officer. Honestly, I'm leaning towards CR being the cult leader. His role of checking for officers/non officers means he is essentially a role cop (a role generally found on scum, not town). His role only weakly benefits town, but would largely benefit a scum group who is trying to recruit players. There is also the issue of this mysterious other roleblocker who nobody else has any confirmation of. When you add all of this together, I'm highly skeptical that he's town.

I think it's safe to assume that there is a serial killer and a mafia group, though. Based on both Clockwork and Xtoxm's claims and Jebus getting shot I don't think there is any chance of there not being a SK and mafia.

[Goatrevolt]

Finally, in regards to clockwork, I found these series of posts to be very suspicious:

Vote: Goatrevolt

I'm a tracker (boatswain). Goat targeted Jebus night 2.

Huntress targeted nobody last night, and I investigated her predecessor on the first night but did not get a result.

Vote: Goatrevolt

I can confirm EA's role name and it doesn't seem to benefit scum to fake-claim tracker.

EA makes his claim and Clockwork immediately follows it up with confirmation and a vote on me. I'll also note that EA's claim provides no real new information on Huntress, considering Huntress just claimed vanilla above this point.

The "and it doesn't seem to benefit scum to fake-claim tracker" part rubs me the wrong way, as he gives no justification to this point at all. Why doesn't it benefit scum to claim tracker? Tracker is actually a common scum fake claim, because it's easy to fake (Huntress didn't target anyone last night right after she claims vanilla, for instance).

All in all, after we lynch EA and he's scum, Clockwork is then on the top of my list. If Springlullaby is town, then Xtoxm is my pick for Serial Killer. Xtoxm also makes sense as a player who would have tried to shoot me last night, considering I was the one shedding doubt on his claim.

----

So we have:

Cult/Mafia - EA and Clockwork.
Serial Killer - Xtoxm

The rest are then by nature town. Huntress's vanilla claim makes sense based on her play (she pushed against Crywolf based on the vanilla flavor). Crywolf's vanilla claim makes sense based on her play. I can confirm that Militant is a jailkeeper, which seems pro-town in this setup. I think he's pro-town based on his play anyway. Springlullaby would then also be town based on her role (which I don't see on scum unless she was recruited). If springlullaby can't confirm her role, then she would be scum, but for now I'm going to assume she probably can.

[Goatrevolt]

Hi Xtoxm:

You've never seen me as town. You've never seen EA as scum, so where are your meta arguments coming from again?

[Goatrevolt]

EA did seem certain you were scum yesterday, and that gives credence to his claim.

He was "certain" about me being scum yesterday before there was any information in the thread to even suggest there was a serial killer. Once that information became available EA moved his vote to Huntress. Explain how this makes sense again.

Also, you saying tl;dr to my posts, ignoring what I say, then pushing for my lynch based on a completely horrible meta read (you haven't seen me as town, or EA as scum, so you have no basis) at a critical moment in this game isn't upping my opinion of your townieness.

[Goatrevolt]

Hi scum,

How, exactly, am I the SK with my role?

You wouldn't even know there's an SK without my claim.

Faithfully,
X

Jebus is dead and nobody claimed vig. It would have been obvious soon enough. It's easy to claim a role that "knows who makes the kills" if you're the one making them. How does your role claim clear you as town again?

Respectfully yours,

Goat

P.S. You didn't respond to my last post. Are you ignoring me?

[Goatrevolt]

Hey, Xtoxm. If you want to rely on meta, you need to see a game where I'm town and a game where EA is scum.

A game where EA is scum: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9028

His play really isn't any different than his play here. Oh, and he also claims a role where his results don't fit with his play through the game. We lynch him on that basis. Sound familiar?

A game where I am town: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... light=open

Just browse through the end of that game after I replace in. Your argument is "you post a lot as scum and you're posting a lot in this game." Check out some of those posts if you want the sampler platter on "posting a lot."

[Goatrevolt]

Hmm. Just thought about something. It would appear scum have a RB. Goat confirms Mili's RB, so he must be town RB. Scum RB blocked CR. Now, we know that scum RB cannot be any of CR, EA, Mili, and i'm going to add Spring to this list as it's not the type of thing scum can claim, and I think she's town. I also know myself as town. This leaves Huntress and Goat. Now, Goat might be eliminatable from this list depending how the mod works RBers (and I think it's likely he's SK anyway). Does this make Huntress a Mafia RB? Oh, bollocks, just rembered we have Crywolf in this game...Ah, he claimed VT.

Well, I think one of those 2 has to be an RB. Am I missing something?

Clockwork could be lying and scum.

Do you actually read the thread? I'm going to guess no.

[Goatrevolt]

Apologies if that came off harsh, but I literally just talked about that a couple posts back, and you still have not answered or responded to any of my comments/questions directed to you. If you are town as you claim, the least you could do is put some effort in.

[Goatrevolt]

I read stuff from when I replace in. Other than that I go from memory, unless I need to check something specific. I sometimes view isolations to get a preliminary opinion of players.

Read my posts outlining why I believe EA to be scum. Do so objectively, without obscuring your thoughts on a meta read that I just proved wrong a couple posts back. Then tell me where my reasoning breaks down, and how I'm scum and EA is town.

Quite frankly, I think it's obvious EA is scum. If you want to rely on meta to make your judgements, then actually have a legitimate meta. A legitimate meta includes the game I just posted above where EA plays exactly like this as scum and even makes the same mistake in claiming his role. A legitimate meta includes me playing as town and making the same type of long ass posts trying to convince people who to lynch.

I'm not going to accept you tl;dring my posts and then keeping your vote on me.

[Goatrevolt]

And yes, CR

could

be scum, but i'm really not seeing his play from a scum standpoint, and the stuff he's claiming is just way to farfetched to be lies, imo.

Read the end of post 420. I don't think CR is lying about the cult. It makes sense that there is a cult and a SK (as I've said already). I just think his play and role makes him likely to be part of it.

Rather than struggle to figure out how the scum could possibly have a roleblocker who magically blocked CR last night, but yet nobody else has been blocked by him, it's much simpler to consider that CR is lying.

[Goatrevolt]

There are plenty of roles that blocking would not be apparant on. Mine, Spring, any VT.

Why would this scum roleblocker block CR when his role has pretty much zero chance of catching scum? I mean, he figures out whether someone is an officer or not and he claims this role in the thread. All scum have to do is be honest about whether they are an officer or not and his role is completely useless. What scum would block that, especially after I claimed a power role, and Militant claimed to have a power role? It doesn't make sense.

His role does seem quite powerful on scum that can't recruit officers, though.

And Goat, tbh everything points to you. Mili blocked you and there's no kill, EA tracks you and is backed up by CR...

I was the obvious night kill target last night. I claimed a power role but I didn't want to claim it publicly. I might as well have put a bullseye on my chest.

EA claims to track me but it doesn't make sense based on his play. CR backs him up but also has large inconsistencies with his play. The manner in which these two players go about doing so is highly fishy. Erratus allows no lynch to happen, and then only claims this information after pretty much everyone has claimed. CR supports EA's claim, but yesterday he was pushing EA as scum. Why does he change his mind here?

[Goatrevolt]

I've looked over CR. He wants EA to claim, not be lynched. He even says he would not be happy with EA being lynched. Infact, in retrospect he make sit blindingly obvious that his result is on EA, and it all fits in very well with his claim.

And, does CR not also recieve which role? If he'd checked Jebus and got "Man-At-Arms" it would clearly be scum, no?

Why is "Man-At-Arms" clearly scum? Doesn't that just mean someone who mans the cannon or is a soldier or something like that? I mean, flavor could be set up so any character is scum. The cook could poison people, etc.

I just assumed wanting someone to claim first pretty much means you think they are scum. Why would you ever want townies to claim first?

At any rate, CR only confirmed that EA is a boatswain, not that he's a tracker. I don't see how that affects EA's alignment in any way.

What you have is militant's claim, and then after the fact EA hops in with his claim to "back up militant's claim." CR's confirmation doesn't mean a whole lot. We know that EA is telling the truth about being a boatswain, but why would he lie about that anyway? It doesn't prove his alignment, and we see from Jebus that the scum are provided with "official" names like Man-At-Arms just like townies are.

Xtoxm, maybe you can explain why EA let no lynch happen yesterday instead of claiming his role information back then? His explanation is that he didn't want to be night killed. But he thinks I'm the serial killer, so the only way to stop himself from getting night killed would be to claim and get me lynched. Can you explain why EA as town would do this?

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, I don't like the coercion in your post. I can prove my role anytime but given the situation I do not think it is priority and I'm going to use it only on people I think are not scum and that is final.

I was under the impression you used it after knowing the player's alignment. Hence my statement "use it on the first town person who gets lynched." Based on that misunderstanding, there would have been no reason for you to not use it at first opportunity. As it stands now, it's probably best if you don't use it on either me or EA, but ultimately it's up to you.

@Goat; I am trying to take a stand. But I really need to re-read this day and Day Two first. Expect a post later tonight.

Good. Rereading would be excellent. I encourage everyone to do this.

Militant/Crywolf: Where are you? We have 6 days until deadline. Either me or EA needs to be lynched by then.

[Goatrevolt]

Xtoxm can't be the SK. Humscumter and RandomGem were inactive during the periods when night kills occurred.

[Goatrevolt]

Xtoxm can't be the SK. Clockwork Ruse can't be the SK because militant blocked him night 2 and there was a kill. Militant can't be the SK because a kill occurred night two and he used his jailkeeper role (despite the absurdity of a jailkeeper SK anyway). I don't think EA could possibly be the SK based on his tracker claim on me (doesn't make sense for a SK to throw himself away like that).

Since I know I'm not the SK, that means the serial killer is one of:

Springlullaby, Huntress, Crywolf. If Springlullaby is telling the truth about her role, then I doubt she is SK (keeping players alive is anti-SK). Crywolf I'm leaning town by nature of her vanilla counterclaim nonsense on Gremwell. Thus, I'd say Huntress is probably the SK.

As for cult, definitely EA. Maybe clockwork, but I'm not fully sold to that yet. I think it's possible that EA is actually a mafia roleblocker, which would make Clockwork's claim more believable.

[Goatrevolt]

Huntress, what do you think about my points against EA? You've avoided really taking a stance here.

[Goatrevolt]

This is a good point. And it raises another question. Wouldn't Militant's action on night two have blocked any recruitment attempt on Clockwork? How could he be recruited if he was shut in the brig for the night?

According to Militant's claim, his role only prevents night kill attempts.

If only it were that easy!

It is that easy. Townies at least try to win for the town. Their actions are generally defensible because they can explain why they would act the way they did. EA has literally no defensible reason why he wouldn't claim his information yesterday. Therefore, it stands to reason he is lying.

If Springlullaby is telling the truth then she obviously isn't the SK but what is making you think she's not lying?

I really have no way of knowing. I'm merely guessing she's telling the truth based on the fact that governor isn't exactly a role you can "fake." I'd be surprised if she claimed a role she has no way of possibly backing up.

I want to hear a lot more from Crywolf. It's odd that we have three vanilla sailors but just one powder monkey.

It's worth looking at.

[Goatrevolt]

WOW. I can't believe I didn't even consider this. I used this information to clear Xtoxm, but I didn't even think about doing it for myself. I almost feel bad for metagaming like this, but I'm not going to pass up an opportunity to clear myself.

Potates last post on mafia scum was his random vote at the very beginning of the game. He hasn't posted on the site since then. It's fairly safe to assume he didn't come back. I didn't replace in until midway through day 2. How could I have made the kill night 1 if I was the serial killer? Do you think Potates makes a random vote, disappears from Mafia Scum, then out of the blue reappears to make a night kill, then again disappears, never to be seen again? There's basically no chance of this happening.

So there you have it. I don't make sense as the serial killer. Now can we please kill EA.

[Goatrevolt]

So we certainly can't rule you out on that basis.

It's possible Potates came back and submitted a night action and then completely disappeared again. It's far more likely that he simply didn't return. If you're working strictly on what could be possible, then you can't rule anyone out. I could create a scenario where anyone in this game

could

be the serial killer. If you're working under what makes sense or is likely, then you can rule me out, because the likelihood of Potates actually making a night 1 kill is really low.

[Goatrevolt]

Tbh I think Huntress is the SK and doesn't want another person cleared of it. It's either her ot Wolf at this point.

I'm thinking the same thing (Huntress, not Crywolf).

One thing to note is that EA claimed to track Huntress doing nothing last night. If Huntress is actually the SK, then EA's lie protected her. That might explain her unwillingness to lynch EA today. She would have known EA was lying. If I get lynched today, then EA gets lynched tomorrow and that's an extra day people aren't hunting for the SK.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm not making any bets on who militant blocked last night. I wasn't informed of a block on myself, but I also didn't use an ability, so it's entirely possible. I don't feel comfortable confirming anyone based on who we think Militant may have blocked. I think Huntress would have been the obvious block target, but I'm not willing to bank on that being what actually happened, especially since Militant was a jailkeeper and not an actual roleblocker.

Anyway, I reread the thread. I still think Huntress is the Serial Killer. I think Springlullaby is scum of the mafia/cult variety or serial killer if Huntress is town.

The interaction between Springlullaby and EA is telling. Day 3, Springlullaby expressed suspicion of EA based on his "confirm vote" on me, but when the end of the day came around, she was interested only in lynching either myself or Huntress. Again, yesterday, springlullaby suggested she was suspicious of EA's claim, but the entirety of her attack was directed at Huntress and myself, based on a very subpar reasoning (pairing two players without any knowledge of either alignment). This acknowledgment of EA being scummy, but no real pressure or action against it seems scummy.

With the death of Crywolf, the number of possible serial killer suspects is down to Springlullaby and Huntress (Possibly Xtoxm, but I'm pretty sure he's town based on his play yesterday). I think we'd do fine lynching either of those two today, although I feel springlullaby is probably a better option, simply because she's a decent possibility for either scum team. Jebus getting night killed could actually point to Springlullaby as serial killer, simply because Jebus called her out as scum the day prior.

I'm hoping CR investigated Huntress last night. I doubt Huntress as serial killer would have the same vanilla role name as Gremwell.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat SK because of EA, I'd say he was probably not lying about his results and trying to get rid of the competition.

It's pretty obvious he was lying about his results. Do you honestly think I actually targeted Jebus, but yet managed to pull out inconsistency after inconsistency in EA's story? If I had actually targeted Jebus that night, I wouldn't have had the same vigor in catching EA's lies, because EA wouldn't have actually been lying so there wouldn't have been anything to catch. Also, note how EA completely stopped posting and refused to debate with me. He knew I had him nailed, and didn't want to post in thread because there was nothing he could say to refute my arguments against him. Do you think an EA who legitimately had information on me as the serial killer would lay down and die like that?

Also, you may want to read post 455. Or if you've already read it, perhaps I can invite you to not conveniently ignore it any more. Let me know what you think.

[Goatrevolt]

I think I find it odd you are looking for serial killer, not cult.

I'm looking for both. Try reading my first post today again. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with this either. You are accusing me of being the serial killer because I'm hunting for the serial killer? I'm interested in hearing you explain how that makes any sense. It would truly be in my best interest as Serial Killer to try to lead the town towards hunting the serial killer. Am I right?

Also, I make no sense as serial killer. I told you directly to read that post (455), and you pretty much have ignored that completely, still opting to try to call me out as scum with some of the weakest arguments I have ever seen.

I think your posts today demonstrate pretty clearly that you are scum of some sort. As scum, you need a couple of mislynches to win at this point. Why you're trying to go for me I have no clue, but it's obvious that you're at the end of your rope.

Either way, your reasoning doesn't add up because you somehow find me scummy because of a link you see between EA and myself, suggesting mafia, then say that I'm serial killer. So which is which?

I'll break it down again. Clockwork and myself cannot possibly be the Serial Killer. Xtoxm is highly unlikely to be the serial killer based on the same logic used to clear myself (and I think his actions yesterday demonstrate that he is pro-town. He was willing to consider new information and change his mind based on it). That means the serial killer is either you or Huntress.

I think the Serial Killer is Huntress, because I think you're part of the mafia based on the connection I pointed out between you and EA. Granted, I'm willing to admit that it's possible that I'm wrong and you're actually the serial killer and not cult, (which would mean either Huntress or Clockwork is cult). Either way, I'm pretty positive you're scum, so I don't see a losing scenario for us to lynch you today.

As for EA and you, I think you are reaching because I thought both of you were scummy, the only fault I could be accused of would be being indecisive.

Not really. You expressed suspicion of both EA and myself. However, your actions betray you. You have never once actually pursued EA, only me. You only pressured me, not EA. You asked EA a couple of simple questions and didn't bother to hear a reply from him or care that he didn't. The suspicion you threw my way was an extremely weak pairing between Huntress and myself, yet that comprised the entire bulk of your posting yesterday. In fact, the entire extent of your suspicion of me was that you thought Huntress was scum and that therefore I was scum with her. Now today, even though Huntress and myself can't be paired anymore, and even though I was entirely correct about EA, you still are trying to somehow pin a lynch on me. I'm sorry, but there is no way you as town are going to play like this.

For you to actually acknowledge that EA's actions didn't make any sense based on the role he claimed, but then do nothing to get him lynched makes it quite obvious you are scum.

Then I'll add that giving my claim, it is odd for you to not ask me to prove it so I can confirm myself, instead of going directly for the lynch.

To be honest, I can see a cultist having the role you claimed, although admittedly it's less likely than town having it.

And no, now that you've actually clarified how your role works I'd rather not test it. First of all, you having the role doesn't guarantee that you are town. Secondly, testing your role involves us completely wasting an entire day.

Finally, this is quite the change of pace from yesterday. I seem to recall you getting a little flustered when I "coerced" you into proving your role yesterday. I thought you wanted to use it when you saw fit? Now I'm scummy because I'm NOT "coercing" you into using your role? Funny how that works.

So yes, this is your last window to claim if you are sk or not.

Obviously I'm not going to claim SK, because it's obvious I'm not the SK. Try reading 455 and then get back to me. You repeatedly asking this of me certainly is not improving my opinion of you in the slightest, though. Rather than actually try to build a case or provide any evidence why I'm the SK, you're opting to "look town" by asking me to claim serial killer. Doesn't work that way, sorry.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat SK because of EA, I'd say he was probably not lying about his results and trying to get rid of the competition.

It's pretty obvious he was lying about his results. Do you honestly think I actually targeted Jebus, but yet managed to pull out inconsistency after inconsistency in EA's story? If I had actually targeted Jebus that night, I wouldn't have had the same vigor in catching EA's lies, because EA wouldn't have actually been lying so there wouldn't have been anything to catch. Also, note how EA completely stopped posting and refused to debate with me. He knew I had him nailed, and didn't want to post in thread because there was nothing he could say to refute my arguments against him. Do you think an EA who legitimately had information on me as the serial killer would lay down and die like that?

The problem here is, why would have him lied only to get himself lynched the next day?

If cult were on the verge of winning yesterday, then with today's death it is still a straight win for them, no?

I like how you quoted this portion of my post and ignored the paragraph at the end. You'll find I'm quite persistent. I'm not going to stop harassing you until you read post 455 and comment on it, despite your best efforts to ignore it.

To be honest, I have no idea why EA would lie like that. Maybe he didn't realize the implications of his actions, or that a mislynch on me would directly result in his lynch the following day. Maybe he did realize that but was perfectly fine with trading himself for me. If you check back through the thread you'll find that I posted a link to a game where EA made a similar play as scum and got lynched for his role not really fitting with his play through the game.

Also, let's assume EA was on the brink of winning, and that's why he made that play. That means there were 3 cultists alive. We lynch EA. Two players are night killed. Now there are 2 cultists alive out of 5 players, which is not game over. So, it's entirely possible that the cult was and still is on the brink of winning.

Personally, I don't think that's the case. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I doubt this setup involved 5 scum and 1 neutral out of 12 players.

[Goatrevolt]

No, I investigated Goat last night because something just didn't sit well with me. Confirmed the role name but it's still possible you could be culted.

You investigated me last night after EA showed up as scum around the idea that I was cult? Can you explain your rationale for this a bit more, because that doesn't really make any sense.

It's possible Crywolf was the SK, but I assumed she was a neutral survivor based on the description.

I don't know why people are still getting hung on the idea of me being scum. The amount of hoops you have to go through for me to actually be scum is ridiculous. It makes no sense for me to be the serial killer based on post 455 alone. Factor in my play yesterday, factor in the idea that there's no possible way EA was telling the truth (based on the logic I pointed out over and over again) and it doesn't make sense. I make 0 sense as Cult. For me to be cult, that means EA lied to paint his own cult buddy as a serial killer, which would have still drawn suspicion to his claim the following day when I turned up non-SK. In other words, he throws away himself to get rid of one of his own scum buddies? Not going to happen.

I guess it's possible I got recruited last night or you can find some other other extreme scenario that took place where I could be scum, but do honestly believe those to be likely? I don't think anyone was recruited last night because I doubt the mafia can both kill and recruit, and I'm guessing the 2nd kill was courtesy of the mafia. I highly doubt it's a vig (and would love to hear why Springlullaby seems to want to portray the notion that it could be) because nobody claimed vig. I'm guessing the mafia can either recruit or kill or something to that extent.

Maybe my playstyle rubs you the wrong way, or you're scum and looking for another mislynch or whatever it is. Regardless, I don't see how a townie can come to the conclusion that I'm scum without having to delude themselves on a ton of different levels. Lynching EA yesterday was a nice cornerstone, because we got rid of scum and confirmed me as town. Now let's move on to catching the real scum.

---------

I feel fairly confident Springlullaby is scum even if we're looking at nothing more than her posts today. Repeatedly asking people to claim SK is not pro-town. It doesn't actually do anything beneficial to town. Do you honestly believe a SK is going to simply say "ok, since you asked me so nicely, yes I'm a serial killer. And now that I've ruined any chance of winning by giving that information to the town, you can go forth and lynch me now!" Seriously, asking people to claim SK without providing any reasoning why a SK would claim accomplishes nothing. All it does is try to plant the notion in the town's mind that you are town because you're "hunting the serial killer." Additionally, I think SL's repeated stance that "she hopes the 2nd kill is a vig kill" is a nice cover up for the fact that she is the mafia member who made the kill last night. It makes no sense to assume it's a vig kill. I think the reason she's assuming it's a vig kill is to try to play off the idea that "she was unaware mafia had a kill" or something like that.

Furthermore, I want to point out the sheer ridiculousness in the fact that springlullaby tried to paint me as scum because I was "hunting the serial killer and not cult." Read through her posts today. How many of her posts pertain towards finding the serial killer or asking people if they are the serial killer? How many are related towards finding the cult? Hypocrisy for the loss.

Then if you look further back through the thread you see her weakly pressure EA a couple times in a very insincere manner. She calls out EA on two occasions, but doesn't pursue it in a meaningful manner, and instead opts to pressure and push for the lynch of myself and Huntress. That's perfect scumbuddy material right there. If EA does get lynched, she can go back through and point out the few times she "expressed suspicion" of EA. However, she did not in any point throughout the thread actually contribute whatsoever to getting EA lynched. In fact, she acknowledged that I had a point about EA's actions not making sense based on his claimed role, but yet pressured me based on the flimsy case that she was suspicious of Huntress and thought I was connected to Huntress. Her actions speak quite a bit louder than her words in this case.

I think Springlullaby is cult here. I think her "I hope it's a vig" is a nice cover up for her being mafia and making a kill. If Xtoxm claims that the 2nd kill was made by the mafia then springlullaby can say "oh, well I thought it was a vig, silly me. But the member of the mafia would have known it wasn't a vig, so clearly I'm not mafia! Oh and also I asked the serial killer to claim, which makes it impossible for me to be the serial killer. That means I'm town!".

Despite trying to call me out on it, she's done nothing but hunt for the serial killer today, which is what a member of the cult wants to do. They want the focus to be on finding the other scum group (which makes her accusation that I'm the serial killer because I'm hunting the SK absurd).

[Goatrevolt]

Please do point out what demonstrate that I'm 'pretty clearly scum of some sort'. What is the point of you saying stuff like ' you are scum at the end of your rope' without backing in the first place?

I don't think the way you've attacked me today is in any way representative of a townie legitimately trying to find scum. I think it fits scum who need a couple of mislynches to win, and thus they have to dredge up and go with anything they can get. In other words, to paint me as scum you have to make quite a few stretches in how it's possible for me to be scum. I don't think a townie is going to draw those conclusions, but I can see a scum trying to do so since they might actually need me dead to win.

Your connection is circumstantial. There is nothing else I can say to it. Were I mafia with EA, don't you think I would have pushed for you when people where pretty much all good in lynching you? Be bathed in my reprobation if you claim WIFOM on this one.

OMG, WIFOM!!!!!!

Actually, I think that very little in mafia is actually WIFOM, and generally do not like when people write stuff off as being WIFOM.

The answer to your question is that my lynch was not secure, and needed your vote to happen. Huntress was off playing in her own corner all day and was unwilling to commit to either myself or EA. I'm obviously not going to vote for myself, and Clockwork/Crywolf/Militant were either MIA or indecisive. In other words, when you posted yesterday it was at a crucial point where things could have swung either way. Your post was such that you legitimately could have gone either way (as you expressed suspicion of both myself and EA) yet the bulk of your inquiry and pressure was placed on me, not EA. In fact, you were asking me to explain Huntress' actions in an effort to clear myself, and you didn't once go back and actually address EA. For you to willingly admit EA's actions didn't make sense, but yet still not move at all towards lynching him is a strong indication of your mentality.

I was trying to figure thing out. Were I mafia do you think I would have given you the benefit of the doubt?

If you were mafia you would have known I was telling the truth, because you would have known EA was lying. It's easy to give me the benefit of the doubt when you have private information to prove that I'm telling the truth.

Right now the logical thing to do if you really think I'm scum is to let me prove it on someone I wish to protect. Because you see, there being possibly a vig as I hope doesn't make a day wasted at all.

Why do you think there's a vig? I don't think there's a vig and I think the information in the thread makes it highly unlikely there's a vig. Please explain how you can jump to this conclusion at all? If there is a vig, who makes sense as vig? A town vig obviously wouldn't shoot Militant, who was pretty much confirmed town. That means if there was a vig they shot Crywolf. If Xtoxm, myself, Clockwork, or you are the vig that means as town we fake claimed a different role as a lie to hide that we were a vig. Not likely. Xtoxm or myself as vig would have shot Huntress yesterday, not crywolf, based on our posting. That means the only possible person who could be a vig is Huntress, but you're entirely convinced she's scum (and thus not a vig).

So please, explain this for me, and ease my mind that this isn't just you trying to come to the conclusion that it's a vig so that you can fake innocence when it isn't.

[Goatrevolt]

SL's claim I find hard to see as scum. Could be recruited, I guess.

Could be recruited, or could be lying about the claim.

Basically, I see 3 possibilities for scum, Clockwork/Springlullaby/Huntress. I don't think Xtoxm makes sense as the serial killer based on information I provided earlier, and I think his unvote on me yesterday (as well as eventually getting people to lynch EA) at a crucial time suggests that he is not part of the cult.

Ooh, just thought of something. It's possible militant was roleblocked, which again would make trying to rely on who we thought he targeted a poor idea.

I'm guessing the information you're looking for, Xtoxm, is along the lines of the weapon people find themselves armed with. I have a dagger, by the way. I've spent a bit of time trying to figure out the meaning of that or how that's relevant to the game at all, and I think it finally hit me that it's probably relevant in the information you receive on how the kills were made.

[Goatrevolt]

Either there are 2 cult left, and crywolf was the serial killer, or there's 1 cult 1 sk left would be my guess. 2 cult and a serial killer still alive means that there was a total number of 5 scum and 1 neutral in a 12 player game. I find that highly unlikely. 4 scum and a neutral seems ridiculous enough to me.

Based on the way Huntress was trying to suggest Crywolf was the SK, leads me to believe she is the SK and is still looking for a way out. Huntress is SK, so she's trying to get rid of the idea that there is a SK still alive.

Based on the way Springlullaby has been pushing for people to claim SK and is suggesting that the other kill was the work of some rogue vigilante, leads me to believe she is part of the mafia and made that 2nd kill last night. Spring is mafia, so she's trying to distance herself from the mafia kill and get us to hunt the serial killer.

[Goatrevolt]

Well one thing I don't get is why cult would even want to kill CW last night.

I think clockwork as scum would have been motivated to shoot me last night, considering I was pushing him hard as EA's scum buddy even though others disagreed. I think Huntress as cult would have been motivated to shoot either you or me, since we seemed convinced she was the SK (and by killing Crywolf, it narrowed down the potential SK suspects to where she was the most likely). SL as scum didn't shoot me, because I was her "pick for SK." I'm not sure why she wouldn't have shot you, but I think the Crywolf kill makes more sense from her perspective than from that of Clockwork/Huntress.

[Goatrevolt]

Springlullaby, I want to note how ridiculous it is that you ask me questions and then get pissy when I answer them.

Clockwork Ruse can't possibly be the serial killer. He got blocked night two by militant when Jebus was killed.

[Goatrevolt]

That's true. He could be maf though, and made up the whole Cult thing.

Yeah, that is a possibility.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm starting to hear echo again, those are my thinking about Huntress.
Point out the flaw in my thinking about EA vs you, and point out how 'a townie is not going to draw this conclusion'.

Are you serious? Give me a freaking break. I'm attacking you because I think your play is scummy. You're attacking Huntress presumably because you think her play is scummy. Well guess what, sometimes two separate people do similar scummy stuff! How novel. So, not only am I not able to ever agree with any opinion Springlullaby puts in the thread, I'm also not allowed to attack other people based on any similar scumtells. Doing so would be "copycatting" and scum are the only ones who ever agree with other people. /sarcasm.

By the way, you never answered my earlier question. Why shouldn't I vote you for agreeing with my case on Gremwell? I mean, I gave reasons why I thought Gremwell was scum and you said you agreed with them and voted for him. You rogue copycat, you! And since you've so clearly established that copycatting is the mark of scum, you implicate yourself as scum quite clearly with that little play. Am I right?

This paragraph disgust me. Don't go all pseudo psychoanalyst guru on me, lest you make yourself look stupid.

In a game with multi scumgroup and a cult, trying to figure out which is the best lynch is what townie do. My thinking about EA and you were exactly as I posted, you were both suspicious, I wanted to figure out which of you was the best lynch.

What? You directly asked me for the psychology behind why you would make that play as scum. How dare I try to explain your psychology after you ask me to! Note, here, the fact that your next paragraph is entirely based on the psychology of townies vs. scum. I'm disgusted by the psychoanalysis present.

Man, why did you waste your time writing this shit. Does it say anything really? Tell, do you honestly think that this is a good argument?

Why do you waste your time asking me questions that lead to those answers then? You asked me why you would have given me the benefit of the doubt as scum. That's like asking why scum sometimes defend townies. Um...because it makes them look good? Because it's easy to defend someone as town when you know they are town? etc. etc.

I think there is a vig because for town to have a kill make my role more powerful, I and hope it is the case.

How can I 'fake innocence' with Xtoxm's role?

What you want or what you hope has no relevance on what is. Why do you think there is a vig? I don't want to know why you would hope for one, I just want to know why you actually think there is one.

Xtoxm's role is how you fake innocence. You can't "innocently" believe the wrong thing if nobody actually knows what the right answer is.

I faced this as scum before, and it can sometimes be a complicated matter. Scum have more information than townies. They know the setup much better than townies do. Sometimes scum get caught specifically because they have more knowledge than they are supposed to. I caught scum in a somewhat recent game simply because he suggested the possibility of multiple scum groups (pretty much out of nowhere). Well, there were two scum groups, and his knowledge of this made it obvious he was scum.

Anyway the point is that oftentimes scum will suggest wrong ideas about the setup either to mislead the town or to appear innocent of having too much knowledge when the actual setup is uncovered. It's why I'm harassing you about this vig thing, because it strikes me as exactly that. I don't see how you could logically come to the conclusion of a vig based on the information in thread. I want to know why you believe there to be one, not why you hope for one.

[Goatrevolt]

Ok.

Tekkactus, Jebus, Mili were killed with Posion - This implicates SL, though she claimed Buther's Hook.

CW was Marlin Spiked. Huntress, do you have anyhting to say about that?

Interesting. This would suggest SL as SK and Huntress as cult.

[Goatrevolt]

I was taking it a a towntell infact, as I don't think scum would be stupid enough to claim that and then kill with it, especially when my role was largely public...

I don't think anyone understood how your role worked. I for one had no idea. I thought you were told information along the lines of "This kill was made by the SK. This other kill was made by the Mafia." It's entirely possible Huntress claimed her kill weapon completely unaware of the implications of her doing so.

Springlullaby: Why did you think I was cult instead of SK after EA claimed his role information on me?

[Goatrevolt]

Also, the way other people reacted today towards you claiming your information suggests that most people were of the same mindset as me...that you would be able to to tell us which group made kills instead of simply informing us how the kills were made.

I can see Huntress as cult, SL as SK. It would explain why Huntress could make the claim that she couldn't possibly see me as cult but yet she could see me as SK. It would also explain why Springlullaby wanted to pair Huntress and myself as cult despite EA's information pegging me as SK.

[Goatrevolt]

Well whoever's been poisoning kept it quiet.

Most players claimed their weapon today, after you wanted additional information.

Here's an idea. Perhaps it's a cult, but they can't kill until they recruit someone who can kill. Perhaps a recruited common sailor can kill with their Marlin Spike, and Huntress claimed before she was recruited?

Huntress claimed yesterday. That means she was recruited and made the kill last night, which is unlikely. In addition to that, I don't see why the cult would recruit Huntress, who people were calling the SK, when they had a pick of plenty of people under far less suspicion.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat, what do you think of this. Lynch SL, and if she's telling the truth, she can prevent her own lynch.

Interesting idea. I want to hear what SL has to say about it.

Seeing as Cult/Mafia/Scum-Entity killed last night, I doubt they can recruit any more.

I doubt it as well. Also, strictly from a setup design point of view, I doubt this setup allowed for 5 scum 1 neutral.

Oh, I also have reason to believe there was an attenpt on CR's life the night we didn't have any kills. I don't know by whom or what method though, unfortunately.

That's really interesting. Can you elaborate further? This brings up some questions, but I want to know more first.

It's still plausable that CW was the SK, I guess. I looked it up, and Powder Monkeys got pretty shoddy treatment on Pirate Ships.

Maybe this makes Huntress the better lynch?

For now, I'm going to play under the assumption that CW wasn't a SK. What weapon did CW claim, out of curiosity? She didn't lie about the powder monkey bit, I would assume she also told the truth about that.

I'm interested in your information on CR before trying to decide on a lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

Second; I basically wanted to check Goat's claim. Since EA turned up scum yesterday and I already knew for a fact that EA's role claim was true, I wanted to see if he was telling the truth about Goat. Being on the opposing scum group, I think EA would love to get rid of the SK as soon as possible.

How did you know EA's role claim (tracker) was true?

[Goatrevolt]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Traitor

[Goatrevolt]

I don't think her play makes a whole lot of sense from a SK point of view. Why as a SK would you counterclaim someone who claimed vanilla town? My guess is that she believed she was a vanilla townie, which is plausible for a neutral survivor, but not so much for a SK.

[Goatrevolt]

Oh, and with CR I used a One-Shot Protection I didn't tell you guys I had on him that night, and I highly suspect I prevented a kill from someone...

Started to regret doing it later...

So either CR or myself got shot at that night. Unfortunately, that information isn't as useful as I had hoped. I was hoping more for something along the lines of a kill attempt inexplicably failing on CR.

[Goatrevolt]

Here's a possibility. I linked the wiki article to traitor in a previous post. We've seen or heard of nothing else regarding recruitment by the mafia besides what CR has said. An additional kill last night means the mafia do control a kill.

One of the traitor varieties is a "spy" or "devil" that has the ability to check player's roles, but the mafia doesn't know who he is. CR in his first post of the game FoSes both Jebus and EA, who turned out to be scum together. I think it's entirely plausible that CR is a mafia spy and was sending a bit of a hint to Jebus/EA who he was with that early FoS. Thoughts?

[Goatrevolt]

So actually the mafia spy doesn't know who is in the mafia. If CR is a traitor, he fits the first definition more accurately.

Either way, I think this is worth considering.

[Goatrevolt]

First, how much of a hint would that be to the scum group if I was a traitor? "Hey! I'm suspicious of both of you!" wouldn't really be much of a hint as much as it would re reason for them to take me out.

If the mafia know that there is a traitor, but not who they are, they would be looking for hints like that. I've actually seen it happen exactly like that before, where the mafia traitor random voted for all of his scum buddies in his first post.

Second, if it was a day start game and I didn't know ho the mafia was how would I be sending a message to the two scum?

Yeah, I was confusing about that. The premise is that you did know who they were.

Can you answer post 546 for me?

[Goatrevolt]

It would explain why Huntress could make the claim that she couldn't possibly see me as cult but yet she could see me as SK.

That was because I didn't think EA's attack on you looked like bussing

Wait a sec, I seem to remember you saying this about me before EA was dead. Fishy, fishy. I'll have to look back and check.

[Goatrevolt]

My rolename is "sailor" as stated in post 378. I assume the marline spike is just a bit of flavour, a tool of the trade (it's used for repairing rigging etc.).

Here is a post from Huntress from yesterday indicating that she was unaware of the implications of the Marlin Spike beyond simply flavor. This right here suggests that if she did kill with it, she claimed it completely oblivious of the implications of doing so.

I'm reasonably confident Goat isn't mafia/cult - or if he is then he's doing a very good job of it - but I see a strong possibility of him being the SK.

Found it. This is from yesterday. I want to know why you were convinced I wasn't cult, but thought I could be the SK. This was before EA's alignment was known...or did you already know? Hmmm?

[Goatrevolt]

Yeh that's the main reason I haven't voted Huntress...But not sure who to think as scum...

That bit I quoted implicates Huntress as scum, not the other way around. The argument against Huntress as scum is that she wouldn't have claimed the Marlin Spike if she knew it would cause her to get caught. What I just showed with that quote is that she was completely unaware of this happening because she thought the Marlin Spike was just flavor, and not actually meaningful to the game.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm pretty sure I have it all figured out.

Huntress is mafia: She claimed the Marlin Spike that was used to kill Crywolf last night. Huntress killed Crywolf because she thought Crywolf was the serial killer. Xtoxm, you and I were on Huntress based on the idea of Huntress being the serial killer. If she shoots the serial killer, then she removes that suspicion. This also fits with her claim today that Crywolf could have been the SK. She kills Crywolf, convinced the Crywolf is the SK, and then when Crywolf comes up indifferent, she makes the assumption that Crywolf actually was the SK.

If Huntress is mafia, then who is the SK? It's not me based on the logic I pointed out. It's not Clockwork based on militant roleblocking him, and I highly doubt it's Xtoxm, based on a lot of factors. Simply based on process of elimination it's obvious the SK is Springlullaby. This fits based on Jebus' death (Jebus was pressuring SL).

Huntress = Mafia. SL = SK

I think we should lynch Huntress today.

[Goatrevolt]

I wasn't convinced, just "reasonably confident", because I was seeing links between EA and Clockwork, both of whom I thought were scum, and I couldn't see you being linked with them, especially after EA's claim.

If you thought EA was scum, why did you hesitate to vote him yesterday? I mean, you spent the entire day completely avoiding the discussion between EA and myself, instead opting to keep your vote on Springlullaby (completely irrelevant when the lynch needed to be between EA and myself). Now you say you thought EA was scum? Your actions don't see to make sense here. Clearly, if you thought EA was scum as you claim, you would have been voting for him, which you did not. I think it's more like you knew EA was scum but wanted to sit things out and see how everything went down before making a move. I don't really see how a townie could act like this: "Well, yeah, I thought EA was scum, so I decided to avoid commenting on him at all, even though his claim was the focal point of the day. Instead I kept a useless vote on springlullaby!"

So yeah, Huntress is scum. Shall we proceed with the noose?

Huh? Where did you get this idea? I thought

you

were the SK although with Xtoxm's evidence it now looks more likely that Springlullaby is. So why are you claiming that I was "convinced" CW was the SK? Yes, I did make the assumption that Crywolf was the SK after she turned up as neutral, but that was because it didn't occur to me that she could have been a survivor.

I'm talking about today. You questioned why SL and I didn't come to the conclusion that CW was SK. That's a fairly clear statement that you DID come to that conclusion. I also think my explanation quite neatly fits why you as mafia would shoot Crywolf. If you kill the SK, you remove the suspicion from yourself, and Crywolf was a potential SK suspect.

Scum could have RB, and with only 1 scum left can't kill and block.

Or EA was a roleblocker or Clockwork is lying.

Hey clockwork, what do you think about Huntress?

[Goatrevolt]

Goat are you waiting for my permission or something?

Nope. I'm waiting to hear from Springlullaby at this point. Actually, I'd like to hear Clockwork's take on who he thinks is scum as well.

[Goatrevolt]

I think I already explained this once. The difference between you and me is that I said straight up that I agreed with your case and didn't use one unnecessary word. You on the other hand took my thoughts, repackaged them in others words, and presented them in lengthy posts as an original POV on this game.

The scumminess here is not whether you agree with me or not, or whether you gave me credit, and it is not even dependent on how much I think I am correct. The scumminess of your copycatting is in the deception of contribution you create by posting what has already been said, when in fact the value of your copycat content is zero and merely echoes.

I don't think you've ever said that before, but that was pretty much what I was hoping you'd actually say. For the record, I've done quite a bit of scumhunting and provided quite a bit of "original content" this game. It's impossible to avoid copycatting to some extent in a game, and I don't intend on ever busting my balls to try to do so, because it's pretty much irrelevant. The fact that you were trying to call me out as copycatting because I had a case on you that bore similarities to your own case on someone else was truly absurd.

Vote Huntress

if I get NKed, keep in mind that Clockwork cannot possibly be the serial killer. Xtoxm can possibly be the serial killer, but it is extremely unlikely.

@Xtoxm: I would never assume the mod's intention is to mislead you in any way. The fact that your role points to springlullaby being the serial killer is meaningful and not misleading. Springlullaby as scum, for instance, could have claimed a different role than cook and avoided that suspicion entirely. The fact that your role actually does implicate people like Huntress and Springlullaby proves that it's actually useful. The combination of your role and Clockwork's is fairly strong, whereas both are a lot weaker on their own. For instance, your role heavily implicates springlullaby as cook. Springlullaby can avoid that by claiming something other than cook. Clockwork can then pounce on and catch that lie. You two combined create a weaker cop of sorts.

[Goatrevolt]

That's what I get for being in class...

[Goatrevolt]

I'm disappointed. I thought we had the game wrapped up yesterday. I figured Xtoxm would get NKed and then I would be able to fairly easily convince Clockwork to vote for SL.

I'll wait until I see the setup, but 3 mafia with the possibility of recruitment + SK + neutral survivor seems pretty harsh for the town to overcome.

Huntress, why did you shoot Crywolf?

[Goatrevolt]

From the town perspective, it makes a lot more sense to kill the guaranteed cult member before the SK, based on the possibility of cult recruitment. I think lynching huntress was the right move yesterday based on what we knew.

Also, if Jebus was the recruiter, then the mafia had to start with 2 members. He died night two and CR declined night 2, meaning he only could get in 1 recruitment for there to be the 3 members we encountered.

[Goatrevolt]

I knew CW wasn't the SK based both on her play, and based on the way Ythill was revealing players. He revealed dead cult as "Mutinous scum" and I assumed he would reveal other scum (SK) as "(descriptor) scum." CW wasn't revealed as "scum" so it was safe to assume she wasn't.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm just disappointed that I had the game figured out and still lost anyway. That's a bit frustrating.

I was on EA and Springlullaby since day 3, and figured out Huntress was scum immediately based on the way she handled day 4. Day 4 also solidified SL as scum in my mind as well. I was a bit iffy on which of them were in which group, but they were definitely scum.

And while you say I could have saved my ability for the win in the endgame, based on the way day 3 went down, I had to use it then. I knew I was setting myself up to be night killed, and it was use it or lose it. You can't expect players with 1 shot abilities to save those to the endgame. It's too risky a strategy for that player, and frankly, not good play. The strength of my ability was such that it needed to be used before I died, so I waited until the moment I thought it likely I would die and used it. It turned out I WAS targeted for a kill that night.

Also, apparently the extra roleblock on Clockwork was due to him trying to target me the night I was kept in prison. I feel that could have been figured out, but CR didn't present that information, and I recall militant claiming that his ability only stopped kills and not all night actions. I just assumed EA was probably a roleblocker who claimed tracker instead.

I thought Huntress played a good game, and it sucks to get recruited like that. In retrospect, it makes a lot of sense, though, as I thought you were very pro-town until day 4, where you suddenly became very scummy.

Spring, you did a good job of keeping yourself from getting lynched. I'm a little bitter here, personally, just because I had a read of you as scum pretty much the entire game, but I do think you played solidly. The role claim was nice. It's pretty gutsy to make a claim you can't actually back up, but then again, we were in no position to test it out. That was well-done.

EA. I'm curious why you made that claim in the first place? Militant's information seemed like it would be enough to seal my fate. Your claim just gave me the information (and desire) I needed to wiggle out of it.

------

Ythill, on the whole I thoroughly enjoyed the game, despite losing. It was one of the more fun games of mafia I've played in a while, even though I have some serious issues with the game setup/balance. I wish I could have been in the game since the beginning, as I feel the town played poorly the first few days, and I would have liked to try to make a difference.

Here are a couple of issues I had with the setup:

1. Recruitment. I personally despise this mechanic, and it's something that I really never want to see in a game unless it's the theme of the game or otherwise made known ahead of time. I feel it invalidates a large portion of scum hunting, which can be frustrating for the town. So much of scum hunting is evaluating players early behavior and early connections to dead scum. If you throw away those connections as meaningless, you lose a large portion of the means to catch scum. Huntress, for example, I feel played a strongly pro-town game. And she was town, at first. If it wasn't for Xtoxm's role and the way she handled the situation with EA and myself day 4, I would have been content to let her skate away with a win. Her alignment change made my earlier read of her entirely meaningless.

2. Post restrictions that deny communication. I don't have an issue with post restrictions in general, however post restrictions that are meant to limit the ability for a player to actually communicate with the town is something I have a problem with, and something I have never seen work out well. Invariably, players will find a way to communicate with this player, via code. And that's not wrong. Why is that player in the game in the first place if they are unable to actually communicate? The problem is that being able to communicate with this player goes outside of what was intended for that role in the first place. It puts the mod in a tough position of deciding what is acceptable and what constitutes a modkill, which can entirely be a judgment call.

3. Overall game balance. Two initial scum with the ability to recruit is stronger than 3 scum. Mix that with a SK and a survivor, and you're looking at 5/12 players being anti-town. The town had a jailkeeper, a 1 shot mass roleblocker, a forensic scientist + name cop (slightly less powerful than a standard cop), and then a PR'd townie as a detrimental role. The town is about standard strength for a 3 scum v. 9 townie game, but has to also deal with a SK with a powerful ability and a neutral survivor. The town is going to be fighting an uphill battle the entire way. I'm not even just talking about the number of mistakes the town is allowed to make before they lose (1 mislynch, 1 no lynch...we even thwarted a lot of night kills/recruits), but also in terms of cooperation and scumhunting. When a large portion of the game is either directly trying to force down mislynches or ambivalent to who gets lynched, the town has minimal chance to succeed.


The game was fun, though. And you did an excellent job modding. You were very on top of the game, from flavor, to answering questions, to dealing with PM's, votecounts, etc. It was one of the better modded games I've played in, definitely.

I wish I could have been able to keep up with the pirate talk the entire game, but it became too unwieldy. There was no point keeping it up if it was actually getting in the way of me communicating properly. There's no way I could have defended myself day 4, for example, if I was too worried about calling EA a bilge-sucking wench.

[Goatrevolt]

Also, what did Mitey do to get modkilled?

I remember being suspicious of SL's "did anyone see what Mitey did to get killed" post, but I didn't know anything about the situation to really press that point.

[Goatrevolt]

Like I said in the queue post, the game was expected to be swingy. I'll certainly keep your advice in mind for next time though.

I'll agree that the game was definitely going to be swingy. However, I think it had more opportunities to swing away from the town than towards it. While the game certainly could have swung better for the town, it could have also swung quite a bit worse. What if Crywolf/Jebus had not been night killed, and those had been townies instead? What if Xtoxm had been shot night 1 instead of tekkactus, and we didn't get his information to figure out the setup? That could have resulted in disaster.

I think the game actually played out fairly balanced in terms of how swingy it was. Scum got off a successful recruitment, and SL burned an entire lynch with her ability, which was harmful, but on the other hand Militant blocked a kill, Clockwork declined a recruitment, and Jebus/Crywolf got NKed. I think the mafia could have been quite a bit more brutal with their night abilities if they had killed first and gone for the recruitment later, as well.

I think the only way the town has much of a chance in this game is for the SK to get crosskilled by the mafia. Even if you catch the SK early, it takes 2 days to kill it, which means the town has very limited time/resources towards stopping the mafia afterwards. Add on a survivor who doesn't care who dies as long as it's not them and it becomes a tall order to overcome.

LOL. I have this thing (fetish?) for trying to use globally despised mechanics in a way that people will like.

Heh. I think the way you handled the recruitment was far more balanced than cults generally are, but I still dislike the principle of recruitment itself. I think the recruitment this game could have gone far worse for the town. All EA/Jebus needed to do was to kill early in the game and then wait until later to recruit someone who was practically confirmed by that point and they're golden. It's why I said that I felt 2 mafia + recruitment to be stronger than 3 mafia. Smart recruitment can nab a player who had previously been confirmed town by a cop or some other means and guarantee a win.

I'm still not sure what I would have done if I had been recruited after EA's death. At that point I was practically confirmed town, but was also a NK target. I probably would have declined it out of principle and because I felt convinced the town could win.

I still feel we made the right choice in lynching Huntress. We couldn't have known that SL had an ability to endgame screw us, and it's always better to go for the guaranteed scum first. With Xtoxm's information, Huntress was almost 100% guaranteed to be scum. Combine that with the possibility that recruiting was still possible from the cult and our decision was easy.

[Goatrevolt]

I am interested to know what people think of the barber-mate combo in place of a cop. It had its drawbacks, but I thought it did the job of giving town a really big advantage if the two players found a way to work together. I know Goat commented on this ingame, but I'd still like to read people's opinions.

I thought it was a good idea. I've always liked analyzing game setups and trying to piece together exactly what happened based on bits and pieces from here and there. I think it was a cool design. It's generally less powerful than a cop (if one of them dies the combo is weakened), but I'm not a huge fan of cops anyway. Actually, it might have been better than a cop in this setup simply because of the "clearing a player then later having them get recruited" drawback.

You should use this idea again. Combine two weaker information roles that can combine to create a powerful team. Maybe a captain planet themed mafia? I call /in on heart!

[Goatrevolt]

The massclaim, that was pretty much a really bad move for town as it permitted me to target militant, who was the single biggest menace to me as he could have isolated me as the obv SK.

Mass claim seemed pretty bad for the town. Now that the game's over, I'll admit that I didn't even read your post before posting my reasons for not liking mass claim. I merely skimmed through the thread and saw people clamoring for mass claim and wrote a paniced NO! post. The fact that they ended up being the same (what other reasons are there?) brought about an interesting dynamic. At any rate, I think it worked out in my favor, as that interaction was mainly what caused me to view both you and EA as scum.

Town disbelieving my being scum with my claim, then subsequently town disbelieving that I could have that power after it was clear I was SK. I think Huntress could have seen that one coming as she knew that her scumteam had multi-abilities, had she pressed the point I'm sure Goat would have been easily persuaded to lynch me first, and Xtoxm could have been convinced eventually.

Your claim threw me off at first, because I misunderstood how it worked. I think it was an excellent claim, though, because the role as you claimed it was not something you'd see on scum, and it's also an entirely confirmable role.

Potates' meta confirming Goat as not the SK. I sent complaint PM's to the mod for this one. D5 was already very thin air threading for me, then I discover the meta and thought it so very unfair because Goat was the perfect scapegoat (ha) for the SK role, and I'm sure Xtoxm was already pretty distrusting of him.

Originally what I thought with my claim was that I could use it if it looked like I was going to get lynched, and retcon the day after by saying that I though I was already hammered, that I misread my PM and that twilight was the last timeslot I could use it. The fact that my power worked should have lent me some town point, and I think I could have persuaded people to lynch Goat as the SK.

The meta clearing Goat left me without a lifeline and made me preserving my oneshot essential.

Oh. I knew what you were going for. I laughed long and hard at what must have been an "Oh shit" moment when you realized I couldn't actually be the SK. I guess you got the last laugh in the end, though.

I also really liked the moment I thought up the word 'coercion' in defending against Goat, I think the emotional charge of the word gave him pause.

. That was pretty nasty. It wasn't the emotional charge of the word as much as the idea it gave to other players. After you said that, I had to back down because I was still on the plate for lynching that day. I was worried my "coercive nature" was going to be enough to convince some of the on-the-fence players to go ahead with my lynch.

Seriously, his investigation of Goat N4 was pretty much a throwaway, as it had already been established in thread that Goat couldn't be scum. This queer choice of investigation is also what made me target him N5 as it didn't make sense and made me think he was the remaining cult.

There were a lot of cards on the table against Clockwork. His role, his investigation choices, even the claim that he could deny recruitment seemed off. After I escaped lynching on day 3, I read through the game during that night phase and came to the realization that Clockwork simply didn't make sense as scum behaviorally. Some of his earlier interactions (day 1) with EA and Jebus really seemed weird if they were scum together. I kept a little pressure on him day 4 just in case I was wrong, but I think he answered those questions fine. Xtoxm was fairly obviously town the moment he swung the tables to get EA lynched instead of me.

I got really lucky with the Jebus kill.

Was I correct in saying you killed him simply because he was suspicious of you? Or was there another reason?

Besides, I've already got new games planned. A very unique mini-theme is on the drawing board (it will include a double-elimination mechanic), as is a large Star Wars themed game which, I suppose, could include a pair of matched information roles.

Let me know when these games are going to start. Despite my sour grapes and setup gripes, I really enjoyed the game and would like to play in another of your games.

[Goatrevolt]

Yeah, I was surprised nobody mentioned "ninja" when people figured out there was a SK.

I'm ashamed I didn't think of it. I was actually wondering how a SK would fit the flavor, and completely didn't even consider the pirate v. ninja thing.

[Goatrevolt]

I also genuinely believed you had a big chance of being cult due to the Huntress no-lynch when I tried to kill you.

Meh, I combated that style of argument in game, and I firmly disagree with this line of thought. Trying to pair players before you know an alignment is wrong. Case in point, you thought I was scum because of my interactions with Huntress, who you thought was Cult. At the time, we were both town. If you had instead waited until Huntress' alignment was revealed (assuming of course she hadn't been recruited) you would have known this to be a flawed argument. You're playing one step ahead. You're trying to enact step 2 without actually knowing if step one is successful or not.

Logically, it isn't sound.

If A, then B (If Huntress is cult, then goat is also Cult)
If B, then C (If goat is cult, we lynch him).

You can't do C without knowing the results of A. That's not even mentioning the idea that B doesn't necessarily follow A. (If Huntress is cult, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm cult, it just means she wanted a no lynch).


I do agree with you about the vig. Drop the survivor, and give the town a 1 shot vig and I'll call it a day.

[Goatrevolt]

I considered a vig, but I was afraid of the D1 mass kill. As it was, lynching the man-at-arms before two scum-kills would have left four dead before D2. Even a one-shot vig could have made it five, and would have made four a lot more likely. I suppose I could have limited his kill to even numbered nights or given him a one-shot after D2...

Hm...yeah. You did say it was a swingy game though!

When I'm town I'm actually wary of scumlinks arguments even after one flipped scum, too easy to manipulate and too easy to get distracted by.

I place a large emphasis on connections to dead scum. I have correctly cleared townies on a couple of occasions based on how they interacted with scum in the random phase. In this game, for example, I deliberated a while on the meaning of Clockwork Ruse voting and FoSing EA and Jebus in his first post of the game. A scum buddy over eager to bus, or a townie who randomly hit both scum in his first post? I eventually decided on the latter one, especially based on the way Jebus/EA were all to happy to be on CR's wagon later in the day. Too much early busing for them to make sense as scum together.

[Goatrevolt]

Actually now that I'm thinking of it, the only thing that I don't like in this setup is Jebus being a bomber. It's always unfair for town and competing scumteams to penalize a correct lynch. It was averted this game and the mechanism of Jebus being a potential kamikaze to save EA was interesting, but I think bobby trap type roles that no one can see coming are just not workable.

Correct play here obviously being forcing EA to lynch Jebus day 1.