Micro Normal 1100 | Game Over

[Solon]

Do I detect role-fishing?

VOTE: Gob

I declare that RVS is now over. Onwards!

[Solon]

Do I detect role-fishing?

VOTE: Gob

I declare that RVS is now over. Onwards!

So which part of Gob’s post was rolefishing?

The more pertinent question is why do you choose to jump to Gob's aid by asking a question for which the answer is quite obvious? Especially after your 14. Actions do indeed speak louder than words, don't they?

Consider this a

FOS

in your direction!

[Solon]

VOTE: Solon

Why do you besmirch my name with your vote?

[Solon]

It wasn’t obvious, actually. I wouldn’t have asked otherwise.
And now it looks even less obvious to me on how you approached the conclusion that joke cop claim was a rolefishing attempt. No real cop with a half a brain won’t claim like that since it is very common for scum to have roleblock ability when there is a town cop.

It was obvious given the small pool of posts available, and the posts in which roles were clearly mentioned. I noticed your own participation in this, by the way, and I don't discount some maf on maf play acting between you and Gob in these early stages.

I don't think Gob is town cop - I think he might be scum looking for reactions to what he said.

[Solon]

I see, I see.

If there are two scum openly lolclaiming like that, in your opinion, what do you think they hope to gain?

P-Edit: FOS - Finger of Suspicion. Basically I-got-my-eyes-on-you

They hope to gain reactions to their role-claims, like I've already said.

I'm perturbed by this line of questioning. It feels like you're trying to pacify rather than advance the game, which is what I'm trying to do.

In fact, I think I've seen enough to put you as my number one suspect.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: GuyInFreezer

[Solon]

I’d like more than just a blanket “they’re fishing for reaction” though. That’s a textbook answer and it’s boring.

Boring though it may seem to you doesn't mean it isn't accurate. Fishing for roles in such a way is one of the scummiest things that can happen early doors, because it can be explained away due to the jollity of RVS.

It's a lead, and a lead which you're doing everything in your power to shut down, therefore I am suspicious of you, especially given your dismissive attitude.

[Solon]

VOTE: Solon

Why do you besmirch my name with your vote?

It just feels like a little much at this stage of the game. You also, perhaps unintentionally, phrased your suspicion in a way that made it seem like you were taking it upon yourself to end RVS, but you did it by taking what seems to be trolling to be entirely serious. That seems like an odd way to end RVS if you really wanted to take it upon yourself to do so.

The RP here is also a little jarring, since from what I can tell, you did plenty of RP in your last game where you were scum. It is a handy way to redirect attention but it's not something I'm totally comfortable with.

Not a bad answer. You can be town, for now.

What do you think of the guy in the freezer?

[Solon]

Not a bad answer. You can be town, for now.

I AM town, not just for now, but for the duration of this game. But thanks?

Feels like you want to put yourself in the driver's seat here.

It's ok, I believe you. Your towniness is radiating nicely.

I don't mind sharing the steering wheel. Let's drive on to victory!

[Solon]

I see, I see.

If there are two scum openly lolclaiming like that, in your opinion, what do you think they hope to gain?

P-Edit: FOS - Finger of Suspicion. Basically I-got-my-eyes-on-you

They hope to gain reactions to their role-claims, like I've already said.

I'm perturbed by this line of questioning. It feels like you're trying to pacify rather than advance the game, which is what I'm trying to do.

In fact, I think I've seen enough to put you as my number one suspect.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: GuyInFreezer

Are you just going to vote for anyone who asks a question now?

If that were the case I'd be voting you right now.

[Solon]

This game is adorable.
If y’all keep up, I might be able to unironically solve the game by page 20.

You'll be lucky to reach page 20 at this rate.

[Solon]

Okay. Then what is it about my question that you are fine with, vs. the question GuyInFreezer asked you?

Their question didn't really seem unfair or indicative of anything to me, so I'm trying to sort out why you seemingly reacted like this to it.

Because Freezer was play acting when it suited him, but his questions served no purpose other than to stunt the advancement of the game. He felt uncomfortable with the developments, and wished to pacify me rather than use it as an opportunity to move the game forward.

[Solon]

What looks even worse for you right now, Solon, is the fact that you added vote #3. We need 5 votes to eliminate someone, yes? So you opted to turn this into a wagon, using what seems like kinda odd and wishy-washy rationale for it, which could push GuyInFreezer to have to reveal their role way sooner than we want to. I don't at all like the fact that a wagon has formed THIS early, before everyone has even checked in yet. Like what is the rush?

There is no time like the present. I'm not going to hold back just because we're early in the game. In fact, it's all the more reason not to hold back!

Wagons create content. I have no qualms about putting my scumread on E-2, be it now or next Friday.

[Solon]

I mean, it's page 1, who cares? This is a common occurrence in the game for people to say things that don't push the game forward. He was play-acting in post 14. Is that egregious?

Why must something be egregious for me to vote someone?

By the same token, why are you holding me to such standards in the first couple of pages? I'm trying to move things along, and I think what i have right now is a very justified scumread on the guy in the freezer, even if it is early and not based on much material evidence. I think his play has been scummy so far, and it has stood out to me as so. If you can't see it then that's a shame, and I'll have to take back full control of the steering wheel while you sit idly in the passenger seat, or worse yet, bark up the wrong tree by maintaining your vote on me.

[Solon]

Yeah I feel pretty okay with where my vote is right now.

No matter, we'll be buddies eventually. I can feel it

[Solon]

By the same token, why are you holding me to such standards in the first couple of pages?

Well I dunno man, why are you pulling anything from post 14 if the first couple of pages are [insert whatever term you are comfortable with since you seem to take issue with whatever words I assign]?

You suspect me based on the first couple of pages too. Can't you see the hypocrisy?

[Solon]

Yeah I feel pretty okay with where my vote is right now.

No matter, we'll be buddies eventually. I can feel it

Uh, gonna tell you right now, with 100% honesty, if you keep up the way you're interacting with me, we most certainly will not. Just so you know.

Just as water gradually wears away the hardest of rocks, it will inevitably be so

Unless you happen to be scum, in which case I will be your worst nightmare

i don't think this is the case, however.

[Solon]

Hypocrisy is a towntell

yes, I townread that person.

[Solon]

I've heard that conflation is a towntell.

[Solon]

I've heard that conflation is a towntell.

Okay. From who?

It's been whispered through many an ear, going back generations.

Who really can know the source of such wisdom?

[Solon]

I've heard that conflation is a towntell.

Okay. From who?

It's been whispered through many an ear, going back generations.

Who really can know the source of such wisdom?

So you made it up, to try and make yourself sound better, got it.

Damn, you caught me

Nothing gets past you, does it? I'll have to up my game significantly.

[Solon]

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

It doesn’t have to be grandiose you know.

It can be simple things like “I think GuyInFreezer is townie and Solon is tripping on something hard,”

“I think Solon vs Roland is Town vs Town

,” or even something like “I think Gob is town because I have the bar really low for him and he went over that bar.”

This is fun to watch but I’m not sure it’s giving me much information.

What do you think of what Solon is doing here? Am I right to be suspicious?

You’re probably both town being silly.

I’ll report back with more intelligent reads like this soon.

You know I didn’t actually expected to see this, and I am proud of you. I might have to up the bar on you now.

This progression doesn't make sense to me, when Kay just parroted back one of the options that the guy in the freezer put forth.

Could this be a S/S interaction?

[Solon]

That was my genuine surprise actually.
“I have no opinion” to “I think these two are town infighting” is one hell of a jump.

Why?

Saying a fight is TvT is literally the easiest and safest thing one can do in a game of mafia.

[Solon]

That was my genuine surprise actually.
“I have no opinion” to “I think these two are town infighting” is one hell of a jump.

Why?

Saying a fight is TvT is literally the easiest and safest thing one can do in a game of mafia.

Because those are two entirely different agenda if scum. Former is going for “I’m new idk what I’m doing uwu” card, and the latter is going for appeasement card.

I don't see how those are entirely different agendas at all.

Please elaborate further.

[Solon]

Let’s assume that you’re scum and you have a plan that you think it is working well. Would you deviate from it? It’s like trying to fix things that’s not broken.

So you think scum!kay would just be like that the entire game? The next small step would be to say something is TvT - appeasement is the safest entry point into actually participating if you're scum.

[Solon]

And for what makes them different,

“I have no reads” vs “I have reads”

If I simplify like this, then it looks very different, right?

To completely remove the context, anything can look different.

You're reaching.

[Solon]

This progression doesn't make sense to me, when Kay just parroted back one of the options that the guy in the freezer put forth.

Could this be a S/S interaction?

Believe me or not but I had typed out that response before I saw his post that you’re referencing.

I believe you, but my point still stands, and I do believe you could be scum with the guy in the freezer.

That, or he's trying to pocket you by being extra nice and coaching you along.

[Solon]

That was my genuine surprise actually.
“I have no opinion” to “I think these two are town infighting” is one hell of a jump.

Why?

Saying a fight is TvT is literally the easiest and safest thing one can do in a game of mafia.

Wouldn't saying nothing be even easier and safer?

If you say an interaction is TvT, you're documenting town reads on two people, not just one.

You can't just say nothing forever.

Giving townreads is much easier than giving scumreads when you're scum. It's not like it was a set-in-stone read either.

[Solon]

You can't just say nothing forever.

I never said anything about staying silent forever.

Solon if you want to pocket me, step number one is going to be to stop twisting my arguments and taking liberties with what I am saying.

I'm not taking any liberties or twisting arguments. As for

'pocketing

', I will continue to try to work with you while I believe you are town and that we can see eye to eye on things, but my patience is wearing thin.

If you accept that scum!kay cannot remain silent forever, then surely we agree that saying something like

'this fight might be TvT'

is hardly a surprising next step? What else would you expect?

[Solon]

To completely remove the context, anything can look different.

You're reaching.

I don't see any removal of context.
You asked me how those two agendas are different, and I've narrowed them down to you so it's easily visualized.
We don't call that reaching, we call that "GuyInFreezer did a damn good job at simplifying things for everyone to understand easily."

If anything is reaching, it's this.

So you think scum!kay would just be like that the entire game?

We were talking about why Kay would/would not change her agenda

now

. Newbcard clearly won't work the whole game and by then, the agenda is clearly not working so it would make more sense to switch things up.

It seems incredibly naive to think that a newb!scum wouldn't at least attempt to give some reads sooner rather than later. It's clearly something she was self-conscious of, and she would have consulted with her partner about it.

And there was a removal of the context - going from 'I don't have many reads right now' to 'the fight might be tvt' is

not

the giant leap you are making out.

[Solon]

This probably won’t help the opinion of me and freezer dude being “teammates”

but I see where he’s coming from with all 3 of those reads. The gob one being the funniest but probably most accurate. If gob is scum…then I don’t understand his game at all.

Reverse-psychology means that this actually did help.

Right now I would say that Kay is more likely town.

[Solon]

It seems incredibly naive to think that a newb!scum wouldn't at least attempt to give some reads sooner rather than later. It's clearly something she was self-conscious of, and she would have consulted with her partner about it.

Please tell me how this acknowledgement, consultation, and the posts you speak of can come out in span of 5 minutes.

I never said it did. They would have had plenty of time to consult.

[Solon]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: FancyPants

I concur with Roland's thoughts in 147, and Freezer doesn't seem so bad recently.

[Solon]

Why did your read on me change, Roland?

[Solon]

VOTE: Random Nurse

This is indeed a random vote.

Any thoughts on what's happening above between Drew and Roland?

[Solon]

189 strikes me as a town post...I am less confident in my Roland townread than I was before.

[Solon]

So you don't think that's townie of Gob to have reacted like that? Like what is the issue you take with what I just pointed out?

Again....more votes please

Why are you not answering the question? I feel like I have a legitimate point here, that what Gob did just now is townie. Why is it so scummy of me to point this out that you request others to hop on the wagon and vote for me also for making what I honestly believe is a totally legitimate point? What is this?

I find this confusing, as you are talking about Gob but Drew doesn't seem to be talking about Gob from what I can see.

This whole thing around Gob feels a bit like blowing your own trumpet - trying to display how you are doing townie things. I don't really agree with your point on Gob, or at best it's a weak point and not worthy of the hype you're trying to generate over it.

[Solon]

Alright well I tell you what dude, if you think people are going to join a bandwagon to vote for me for making a good point about Gob's behavior then good luck with that lol. You are free to conf-bias your way into a read on me if you like

but, as one of my town reads, I hope you instead do something that is actually productive

, like giving more thought to my case on FancyPants, for example.

At the very least, you really shouldn't act like you have the game figured out when you haven't seen enough content from everyone yet. Who are you to say that the scum team is not fully contained in the people who have hardly posted a thing in this game, which includes Random Nurse (3 posts), FancyPants (1 post), and Not_Scum (1 post)? I know it is fun to go all inspector gadget on what you have and solve the puzzle, but it's probably a lot more likely that the people hardly saying anything are the ones more worthy of your suspicion.

So why did you townread Drew at the time of this post?

[Solon]

The more I look at posts like 194, I just can't shake the feeling that it's scum annoyed at being caught in a manner they deem to be unfair, due to the effort they have made so far compared with others.

Why did Roland make such a big deal about his Gob read, but make no comment on his huge reversal on me? Surely that would have been more worthy of comment? Or did the fact that your scumreading of me gained no interest make it inconvenient, especially in the face of being attacked by another player, and so you decided to drop it for a townread rather than have to battle on two fronts?

This is why it seems like a strategic reversal rather than a genuine one. Also with your townread on Drew - you try appeasement, and when it doesn't work drop it for a scumread and a vote, which again seems strategic.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Roland

[Solon]

@Salon, on post 194, this kind of frustration generally reads town more than scum to me.

The whole interaction between Drew and Roland seems like TvS - Drew's reactions are calm yet persistent, while Roland seems uncomfortable in the limelight and wants to immediately rubbish any suspicion against him. It seems a bit desperate on his part, which is why I think it's more likely scum frustration, especially when he has made a good effort so far and done more than most in the game. I think as town he wouldn't worry too much about being scumread for something that is, in Roland's mind, baseless.

[Solon]

I think townies are just as eager to defend themselves as scum, in some ways it's more emotional to defend oneself as town because you know your accusers are wrong. Whereas if you're scum you know your accusers have a point.

Do you buy that Drew's 166 is not an implicit town read of Roland?

I would interpret it as a conditional townread, depending on Roland's experience of the game.

I certainly don't think it's scummy of Drew to have townie feelings about Roland and to then change to scumreading him upon further developments. I've done the same myself, as Roland appeared very townie early in the game, but he seems scummy in his recent exchange with Drew.

[Solon]

In fact, I would say it's +town for Drew to change his read like that. Scum are generally more careful when it comes to read consistency.

[Solon]

I just don't think there's enough substance between the town read and the vote to justify changing.
Additionally I don't like that Drew doesn't really own up to changing his mind - instead he kind of pretends he didn't town read Roland in the first place.

You make an interesting point.

I'm going out now, so will review in a few hours.

[Solon]

I'm going out now, so will review in a few hours.

Did you forget about us?

How could I forget you wonderful folk?

I've had a torrid couple of days, but have a free hour now so let's see what I can see.

[Solon]

So you don't think that's townie of Gob to have reacted like that? Like what is the issue you take with what I just pointed out?

Again....more votes please

Why are you not answering the question? I feel like I have a legitimate point here, that what Gob did just now is townie. Why is it so scummy of me to point this out that you request others to hop on the wagon and vote for me also for making what I honestly believe is a totally legitimate point? What is this?

I find this confusing, as you are talking about Gob but Drew doesn't seem to be talking about Gob from what I can see.

If you find something confusing, then why take issue with the question? The question is meant to alleviate this confusion, no matter what it is about.

This whole thing around Gob feels a bit like blowing your own trumpet - trying to display how you are doing townie things. I don't really agree with your point on Gob, or at best it's a weak point and not worthy of the hype you're trying to generate over it.

You completely misunderstand my point if you think

I

am the one generating the hype here. Did you not see Drew say, multiple times, that

he

wants all of you to vote for me because of what I said about Gob? If you think my point on him is flimsy, that's totally fine, I'm in full agreement that it's shaky to town read a person on just that one thing, but what I don't understand at all is how my stance here is just so reprehensible that Drew wants all of town to vote for me because of it. This hype is a Drew thing, not a Roland thing.

Well I kind of vibed with Drew's read on you, so I can see why he wanted more pressure on you from that.

I still don't see where Drew talked specifically on your point about Gob.

[Solon]

Alright well I tell you what dude, if you think people are going to join a bandwagon to vote for me for making a good point about Gob's behavior then good luck with that lol. You are free to conf-bias your way into a read on me if you like

but, as one of my town reads, I hope you instead do something that is actually productive

, like giving more thought to my case on FancyPants, for example.

At the very least, you really shouldn't act like you have the game figured out when you haven't seen enough content from everyone yet. Who are you to say that the scum team is not fully contained in the people who have hardly posted a thing in this game, which includes Random Nurse (3 posts), FancyPants (1 post), and Not_Scum (1 post)? I know it is fun to go all inspector gadget on what you have and solve the puzzle, but it's probably a lot more likely that the people hardly saying anything are the ones more worthy of your suspicion.

So why did you townread Drew at the time of this post?

I didn't. I was null on him and wanted to see how he would react to me suggesting that I town-read him.

And look at how he responded. He laid right down, acquiesced, asked me, yes Roland, alright, let's set aside my concern about you and talk about your case on FancyPants instead, guy who townreads me and who I should perhaps try to be pocketing. Let's discuss!

It was both that reaction to it, and the question itself (which was a bizarre thing to ask about, as I explained), that definitively moved him out of null territory for me and into scum territory.

His follow-up to my case on him was very unsatisfying also and continues to show a lack of engagement on his part. Why am I not scum-reading the two inactive players, he asks? I already explained that I was null on them and would continue to be null on them until they posted more, so it seemed like a desperate attempt to try and dig up something to divert attention rather than a genuine thought.

I don't really agree that Drew acquiesced. But fine, you've earned yourself an unvote, squire.

UNVOTE:

[Solon]

I really feel freezerguy is frozen scum (no oun intended) and we should lim him today.

i know its not the most exciting since ive been pushing freezer since page 1, but every time they post i become more confident they are scum.

So i implore everyone to vote CreezerGuy

I'm not really vibing with you there, Gob. ironically, I actually feel like this could be '

frozen scum'

- maintaining a scumread in such a way seems quite unnatural at this point in time.

[Solon]

Drew a little bird tells me that you asked Roland for experience and jumped on him once you learned that he’s kinda new. What would you tell the little bird about it?

I would tell that bird to take the same Drew reading class that the turtle needs to take.

I asked the question since I didn't think someone who has never played the game could fake the genuine frustration that I pointed out, once they said they had some experience playing the game I was curious how they would react to a naked vote.

If anything was conditional it was my vote on them, which now is a vote on scum me thinks.

I still think Drew is town. I think his push on Roland, given that Roland was townread at the time, and with the persistence with which he tried to mount the pressure, is town indicative. I can also understand the reaction test, which is something scum would more likely avoid doing in this situation as it could turn ugly in a hurry.

[Solon]

FreezerGuy is BLEEDING scum

If we dont lim them today, i will threaten to throw this game. You all have been warned

This rings false.

Consider my vote on Gob for now. I have no idea what the vote count may be, so won't place it here immediately for the sake of prudence.

[Solon]

Oh btw I’ve reduced the pull to Nurse/Drew/N_M at this point. I’m technically done with solves, but this feels way too easy and I never get easy games, so I’m now at a lookout mode to see if there are any new developments throughout the day.

This is also where I am, with the exception that I'm null on Gob. I just cannot understand what he's doing, not in a scummy way but in a genuinely perplexed way. (as in, I am the one who is perplexed)

*a little tinfoil theory*

Roland is scum with Gob, and is genuinely frustrated by the actions of his buddy.

[Solon]

@Gob

Can you promise that you are actually playing to your win condition?

yes of course. Never gone against it on this site so far.

If you guys dont listen to me though, ill do what i must to make myself heard. Even if that means throwing this game.

I could townread this, if I actually saw reason behind what you're pushing.

I could relate to your early scumread on Freezer. Lord knows I scumread Freezer myself early on. But right now? Show me why you feel such conviction in your read and i may follow you. If not? I shall feel compelled to vote you!

[Solon]

If you guys dont listen to me though, ill do what i must to make myself heard. Even if that means throwing this game.

We could always just skip the part where you throw the game and just vote your ass day 1. Wouldn’t the end result be the same except you don’t have a chance to do more damage at night if you’re a town intent on making us lose? Screw your threats, either you’re scum causing chaos and we eliminate you, or you’re town that is (purposely, loudly) detrimental to us winning. Either way, you not being here sounds like a win/win to me.

VOTE: gob

Don’t get distracted by shiny things.
If he continues to break the rule then he gets replaced.
If he isn’t, then we just gonna win the game before elo.

I don't get this; why are you not more suspicious of Gob, given what you said in 268?

I don't think Freezer and Gob are partners, but does scum!Freezer want Gob to stay alive later into the game in order to cause mayhem and confusion to the town?

[Solon]

My thoughts currently, as of page 12, are that if Gob is town then Freezer is scum, because he is way too comfortable with the game state and his supposed town reads at the moment.

I don't trust this way of approaching the game, quite possibly leading town to their doom in the event of the dreaded

'power-wolf'

.

[Solon]

Gob at this point I hope you have enough mental fortitude to survive the sheer amount of schadenfreude that’s going to happen when this game is over.

You seem to be

assuming

that Gob is town here??

Could there me a layered meaning to what is being said here: schadenfreude based on Gob being right in his scumread, but no-one listened to him and he lost anyway?

[Solon]

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Ah, brilliant. A scum-claim. I will take that all day every day thank you.

(my vote is now on Not_Mafia as things stand).

[Solon]

DownBad = Gob
S+(I/2) = KayJayQueue
Cold Cabbage = GIF
ThunderClap = Solon?
Mary

Seedcole

Seacole = Random Nurse
Quack = Doctor Drew
Feathers McGraw = FancyPants
Fartarus = Roland


Not_Mafia

You're taking the reads of someone who just scum-claimed seriously?

Is this deflection? Damage-control?

[Solon]

My interest level in this game is dropping dramatically right now. Literally what is this shit.

This feels a little more townie

[Solon]

With that said, I am surprisingly ok with N_M’s readlist.

This is terrible. He scum-claimed, and you don't even know for sure who he is talking about with the pseudonyms!

I think Freezer is actually scum here. Either with Not_Mafia, or his tactic is just to keep the insane players alive.

[Solon]

Also you can just leave Gob be unless you scumread him or something. It should be really obvious at this point that he’s just an obnoxious town though.

Obvious to those who already know everyone's alignment, certainly.

[Solon]

Also I’m going need to see a cop guilty and a flipped cop to see Roland being scum at this point.

Roland is looking up, but again the level of conviction here is too much and I think you have too much information.

Consider my vote on Freezer guy.

[Solon]

gob is being force replaced for breaching rules 2 and 3 on multiple occasions.

This is a final reminder to all players regarding rules 2, 3 and 16:

2. Toxic and harmful behaviour will not be tolerated. This includes, but is not limited to:
- flaming, insulting, or directing personal attacks at other players
- use of slurs or derogatory language
- spamming
- excessive AtE
- excessive discussion of real life issues (a mention is fine, but this is not a place to vent or to go into detail)
- otherwise being a jerk or making the game unenjoyable for others
3. Play to your win condition.

...

16. Pretending to break a rule or attempting to provoke someone into breaking a rule is itself a violation of the rules.

Throwing the game is a clear breach of rule 3. Per rule 16, threatening to break a rule will have the same consequences as breaking the rule itself.
To make it abundantly clear, threatening to throw the game for any reason will not be tolerated.

Votecount incoming.

So this means Gob is town, because I don't see how he's not playing to his win condition if he's scum, especially when he's being townread for his actions.

[Solon]

Although Kay isn't contributing much, I think she is more likely town based on her comfortable tone. She feels more at ease than anyone else in the game.

[Solon]

Well there is a development.
I think I’m warming up to an idea of Drew maybe being town.

What exactly has developed since you scumread him?

[Solon]

VOTE: Solon

You vote me when my back is turned?

You scallywag!

[Solon]

I like Jackson's thoughts upon catching-up. Along with what I said above, I think that slot has to be town-binned unless something changes dramatically.

I've got a feeling the scum team is Freezer + one of the quieter players. That would sure explain a lot of his strange behaviour.

[Solon]

I keep getting Jackson and Roland confused based on the similarities of their avatars.

Anyway, I think they're both now for now.

[Solon]

It's ironic that as Freezer feels better about Drew, I feel worse. I don't think Drew has developed since his early townie-looking push on Roland. So again, I'm perplexed as to why Freezer is

now

starting to townread Drew based on developments.

What developments??

[Solon]

478 is good.

I'm now pretty sure that Roland is town, and I can understand his reasoning for scumreading Drew much better.

[Solon]

As of page 21, we have:

Town:

Jackson, Roland, Kay

Null:

FancyPants (I've liked a few of his posts, like his points regarding Drew vs Roland, but I've seen nothing that couldn't come from scum).

Scum pool:

Freezer, Not_Mafia, Random Nurse (just by PoE they seem quite likely to be scum), Drew (I liked his early push on Roland, but I can see Roland's points against him and he hasn't done anything of note since then).

I'm out of time, so will perhaps grace the thread with my presence once again in roughly ten hours.

[Solon]

As of page 21, we have:

Town:

Jackson, Roland, Kay

Null:

FancyPants (I've liked a few of his posts, like his points regarding Drew vs Roland, but I've seen nothing that couldn't come from scum).

Scum pool:

Freezer, Not_Mafia, Random Nurse (just by PoE they seem quite likely to be scum), Drew (I liked his early push on Roland, but I can see Roland's points against him and he hasn't done anything of note since then).

I'm out of time, so will perhaps grace the thread with my presence once again in roughly ten hours.

Allow me to push back slightly on your read of me here, has anyone really done anything of note the last few days since the back and forth with Roland and myself?

That's a fair point, but it seems like you're just reacting to what's happening, for example replying to some of Roland's points against you, rather than pushing your scumread of your own volition. Personally, it would concern me a great deal if the majority of players were hard-townreading my top scumread who I think continues to '

spew scum

', so based on this context I kind of expected more.

I also think Roland's recent case on you was townie which, even though you are the subject of it, I would have expected you to acknowledge as being so, rather than doubling-down on your read without really going into detail on it, or having much energy or urgency to your push. It feels a bit comfortable and convenient to sit on your scumread in such a fashion.

[Solon]

@Not Mafia, if you had to elim someone now, who would it be and why?
Nurse if you ever appear same question.

At this point I don't know. I noticed there's Jackson in this group but have to look at the player list. Definitely Hu Tao if she's here.

Why would one assume a player by the name of Hu Tao is in this game?

I don't like this one bit.

[Solon]

Imagine the scenes if Hu Tao is the replacement.

[Solon]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Solon]

A psychic vision of a Not_Mafia/Drew scumteam just flashed before my eyes.

[Solon]

I think Snow has earned a stay of execution at the very least.

I'd much prefer a Not_Mafia elimination as that slot is never going to be readable for anyone, and will be a liability with the ever-present possiblity of a lolhammer whenever someone is one vote from the chop.

[Solon]

It would be unfortunate if we eliminate Snow and he flips town, as he is actually contributing meaningful content, whereas Not_Mafia will never do so, and if he ever makes it to melo then then game is lost anyway if he's town.

I also don't think Snow's catch-up is nearly as bad as is being made out. I think his response has been calm and balanced, not in the least survivalistic, and I think he made some decent points. It's never easy catching-up in a game, especially when everyone already thinks you're scum.

[Solon]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

This is 1 vote away from elimination. (And Not_Mafia has already voted himself so there's no danger of a meme hammer here)

Not a fan of this route

I think I prefer Snow today but I’m happy with either snow or N_M. I just feel like N_M was more trolling than being scummy (yet is at the bottom of my list because everyone else feels better to me) whereas RN was null and then got replaced and snow’s contribution is just settling off red flags all over for me. I don’t know which one it is but I’m leaning snow over N_M.

Can we just hear from everyone once about their preference? I know we’ve heard from most players. I wonder Drew’s opinion on who to vote today? Anyone else who has more to say after snow’s analysis?

UNVOTE:

As I stated, I always hate limming a lurker on D1, but the way RN popped into the thread was bad(and thinking about it more, mention Hu Tao could definitely have been a dumb tell), so I was definitely ok with him being the lim. Snow actually has out effort in at least,

but I am always weary when someone really towns it up when they repp in, so I am still fine with an RN lim.

I don't like limming NM, but I definitely get it, if it were a bigger game I would be totally fine with it, but would hate basically a policy lim taking out a townie in a game this size.

Problem is, I am still ok with a Roland lim, but am definitely in the minority there lol.

And GiF still is pinging me weird, but not sure I could(or even would want to) push them at this point.

Basically I am reluctantly fine with the lime being snow or NM

This is a strange sentence.

[Solon]

It would be unfortunate if we eliminate Snow and he flips town, as he is actually contributing meaningful content, whereas Not_Mafia will never do so, and if he ever makes it to melo then then game is lost anyway if he's town.

I also don't think Snow's catch-up is nearly as bad as is being made out. I think his response has been calm and balanced, not in the least survivalistic, and I think he made some decent points. It's never easy catching-up in a game, especially when everyone already thinks you're scum.

Actually…I think this makes the most sense to me. I can see pushback against both N_M and snow and honestly we won’t feel great no matter who we eliminate if they flip town so at this point it’s 50-50.

I’m okay to vote N_M again but he’ll be e-1.

I think Not_Mafia is already E-1.

[Solon]

I do get scum vibes from Drew's 895.

[Solon]

So you would scumread Snow no matter what he did, then?

Also, what did you mean by the Hu Tao dumbtell point.

[Solon]

I'm wary of the fact that Snow has come in and done a reasonable job of catching-up, and not one person apart from me has an issue with his elimination, and many are actually jumping on him quite unfairly.

[Solon]

and not one person apart from me has an issue with his elimination

Yet a counterwagon formed

Can you elaborate on this.

[Solon]

So you would scumread Snow no matter what he did, then?

Also, what did you mean by the Hu Tao dumbtell point.

Well that is a way of twisting my words, I said I have seen someone that is widely scum read get replaced, then the person who repps in does everything they can to be obvTown so everyone else starts town reading that slot.....and then oh look, that slot was scum all along.

I also said I am not explicitly saying that is the case here, but am always weary of this when someone reps into a scum read slot.

And yes, in a vacuum I do think Snow's catch-up was pretty good, but that discount the sins of their father.

And RN talking about Hu Tao in this game could be a dumb tell to try to show how much that haven't played attention to the game and just is a townie who is confused rather than someone purposely messing it up to save face

I wasn't twisting your words, I was asking a legitimate question. Because if you will be suspicious of someone towning it up upon replacing into a dubious slot, then it seems you're always going to scumread that slot regardless. I get that once bitten twice shy and all that, but my overall impression of your post was that you were hedging your bets.

And your point about the dumbtell is that it was done on purpose to look townie by not knowing what's going on? In which case yes, I think that is a possibility.

[Solon]

Drew's recent interactions seem more townie. Roland I still think is probably town, but he's talking to his scumread like he knows he's town, which is quite suspicious. I'm also a little uneasy about some of his votes putting players to E-1 today.

There's no way I can justify limming Roland over Not_Mafia, however.

[Solon]

It's a shame actually, as I would like to pursue Roland more based on recent posts, but I can't in all honestly when a slot like NM exists.

It's unfortunate, but I just can't accept such a slot surviving late into the game to cause more chaos.

[Solon]

Btw, how it is that Gob can be kicked from the game for not playing to his win condition but Not Mafia isn't?

Could it be because Gob is town and Not_Mafia is scum? Being anti-town therefore wouldn't be against his win con.

[Solon]

A Roland/guy in freezer partnership has crossed my mind on a couple of occassions so just wanted to float that out there. Will be a tough game if this is indeed the scum team.

[Solon]

I cannot be portrayed as Roland's teammate. I actually called him sus which put me immediately under fire. So, Drew's claim that he is the only one suspecting Roland is unfair.
But I don't think that going after Roland in a 2-scum scenario should be considered now.

So what should be considered?

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're town based on your reasonable catch-up, but I expect to see some proactivity from you with regards to who should be eliminated.

[Solon]

What is noteworthy about Drew is that he seems to complain about people not following him in voting vs Roland without actually putting his case against Roland.
You can withhold your case vs an adversary for a while, you can probably request a couple of votes on a player to stimulate or provoke him/her, but you cannot expect that others will join you and lim him/her in the absence of clear arguments.

I somewhat agree, but this kind of passive commentary makes me uneasy.

[Solon]

Now I'm starting to think it actually is Snow/Roland after all which is why Roland freaked out over Drew linking them together.

[Solon]

Btw, how it is that Gob can be kicked from the game for not playing to his win condition but Not Mafia isn't?

Could it be because Gob is town and Not_Mafia is scum? Being anti-town therefore wouldn't be against his win con.

I think the bigger issue with Gob was the threatening to throw the game. Doesn’t that go against any win conditions no matter what side? At least that’s how I read it.

Tell me how Not_Mafia is playing to his win condition as town.

As scum, there's always the potential motive of reverse psychology - '

scum wouldn't be so scummy'.

If not_mafia is town then he is literally throwing the game. The fact he hasn't been kicked, when Gob has, implies to me that the former is scum while the latter is town.

[Solon]

Now I'm starting to think it actually is Snow/Roland after all which is why Roland freaked out over Drew linking them together.

My scum team with Roland makes no sense.

Also in saying so you actually take Drew's side in his conflict with Roland. I think you cannot resolve their conflict until Drew puts his case vs Roland.

So you're suggesting that I can't scumread Roland until Drew puts forth his case?

That's nonsense.

[Solon]

Right now I'm in a strange position.

I think Snow has a higher chance of flipping scum, but I feel as though we need rid of the Not_Mafia slot for the sake of the game.

[Solon]

Btw, how it is that Gob can be kicked from the game for not playing to his win condition but Not Mafia isn't?

Could it be because Gob is town and Not_Mafia is scum? Being anti-town therefore wouldn't be against his win con.

I think the bigger issue with Gob was the threatening to throw the game. Doesn’t that go against any win conditions no matter what side? At least that’s how I read it.

Tell me how Not_Mafia is playing to his win condition as town.

As scum, there's always the potential motive of reverse psychology - '

scum wouldn't be so scummy'.

If not_mafia is town then he is literally throwing the game. The fact he hasn't been kicked, when Gob has, implies to me that the former is scum while the latter is town.

You definitely can have issues with how NM plays the game, but Gob was forced replaced because he broke site rules...... absolutely nothing to do with what alignment he was.

I feel as though they have both broken the rule of not playing to their win condition (if they're town), but only one has been kicked, which i feel could be alignment-indicative, even on a subconscious level from the mod.

If Not_Mafia is scum then there's nothing really wrong with how he's playing, same for Gob, in my opinion.

[Solon]

I saw that you leaving your vote on Snow when you did meant you perhaps weren't partnered, but then the fact you switched so soon after I defended Snow pricked my ears up a bit.

Your AtE game is strong though, I'll give you that. i do truly believe you are town in this moment.

[Solon]

I saw that you leaving your vote on Snow when you did meant you perhaps weren't partnered, but then the fact you switched so soon after I defended Snow pricked my ears up a bit.

I switched when he was at E-2, not E-1.

See the fact that it means nothing to you that I EVER put him at E-1 is why I just fucking give up. That, of all things, should make it obvious I'm not partnered, and yet it still doesn't convince anyone.

I challenge you to show me a more convincing case of non-partnership

in this entire fucking game

than a guy putting another guy at E-1 when someone else intended to swoop in and finish the job at any given moment. This isn't a rhetorical challenge; I actually want you to answer.

If you thought someone else would put them at E-1 then you would miss out on the valuable towncred. As I said, I thought it indicated that you most likely weren't partners, but when you then switch and vote Not_Mafia after my defence of Snow, then understand that from my perspective you could have taken a calculated gamble in doing what you did, which would explain your frustration at being suspected of being partners with Snow despite the gamble having paid off. I have seen examples of scum bussing in much more unlikely situations than this.

Right now I don't believe you are partnered with Snow, so you can calm down.

[Solon]

You're having a temper tantrum. Take a break from the game and come back tomorrow renewed and refreshed.

I do more strongly believe you're town now anyways, so rest assured in that knowledge.

[Solon]

You're having a temper tantrum. Take a break from the game and come back tomorrow renewed and refreshed.

That is both incredibly condescending and false.

This is a tactical decision on my part. As I explained, my elimination helps town either way, either by putting the pressure on who I think is scum or by redirecting efforts to be more useful.

It would be more useful if you didn't resist my efforts to redirect onto a player who might actually flip scum.

[Solon]

Roland will regret that. He should have taken my advice and had a break from the game. It can get a bit too intense at times.

[Solon]

I regard the chances of scum replacing out in such a fashion as zero, so we effectively have a conftown at least.

[Solon]

I'm at the point now where I just want to flip Not_Mafia and proceed from there.

[Solon]

Drew, has you opinion on the Roland slot changed at all?

[Solon]

I'm against an NM elim

He isn't playing the game, why shouldn't we eliminate him?

[Solon]

@Mod

: How is Not_Mafia playing to his win condition here? Serious question. There is a lack of consistency when one player is kicked while another isn't, you can't blame me for thinking it might be alignment indicative.

If you don't want me to draw such conclusions then be consistent and kick both players, not just one, for game throwing and playing against win con.

[Solon]

This is a final warning to Solon against using moderator decisions to try and speculate around alignments of other players. Per rule 17 moderator actions do not take alignments into account. gob threatened to throw the game, while Not_Mafia has not and has not breached any rules so far.

Bad response.

I'm asking for consistency, while you continue to ignore the elephant in the room by burying your head in the sand, and instead threaten me. Why no warning for Not_Mafia? Clearly I'm not the only one who feels way. Why should I spend hours contributing to a game when another player is blatantly game-throwing? He even admitted it himself.

Either way, I'll refrain from posting until Not_Mafia is out of the game, one way or another.

[Solon]

@Mod

: How is Not_Mafia playing to his win condition here? Serious question. There is a lack of consistency when one player is kicked while another isn't, you can't blame me for thinking it might be alignment indicative.

If you don't want me to draw such conclusions then be consistent and kick both players, not just one, for game throwing and playing against win con.

+1 on this sentiment.

Third-ed? Thriced? Trio-d? Triad-ing? Joining the threesome? Return of the King-ing this trilogy?

Anyway, I agree.

Quad'd

Is this not him admitting to game-throwing? What more does he need to do to spell it out to you?

It's such a stupid arbitrary rule. Gob threatened to game throw and is kicked out, while Not_Mafia is

actually

game throwing and has admitted to it and not a peep from the mods.

No wonder this site is going downhill.

[Solon]

I can only laugh at '

Not mafia hasn't breached any rules so far'.

That's truly insulting our intelligence.

You make a mockery of your own rules, and you threaten players who are actually contributing to the game while ignoring blatant game-throwing.

[Solon]

Snow is my bigger scumread, but I refuse to play further with Not_Mafia, so that's unfortunately where I stand.

It may well be that they are both scum, in which case it's an easy game.

[Solon]

Around about here:

Right now I'm in a strange position.

I think Snow has a higher chance of flipping scum, but I feel as though we need rid of the Not_Mafia slot for the sake of the game.

[Solon]

I was a Vanilla Cop, won't be town's biggest power but still a pointless elim based on playstyle differences and personal dislike.

Solon who is literally refusing to play the game for no valid reason would have been a valid policy lynch but he plays conventionally so he's being let off with it

KayJayQueue is scum, take that to the bank, he's used everyone letting him off with his "uWU silly newbie me" posting because "Not_Mafia mean silly cow man" as an excuse to quickhammer scot free

KayJayQueue + Doctor Drew scum team, quote me now, thank me later

My interest in the game seriously wanes when there is a player basically game-throwing for the whole of D1. It's the first time I've ever chosen to vote off someone who isn't my biggest scumread just to get them out of the game.

Good riddance to you.

[Solon]

And it's players like you who are ruining this site not_mafia. I think the consensus is that you've made this game less enjoyable.

Either play the game, or don't sign up to play.

[Solon]

I was a Vanilla Cop, won't be town's biggest power but still a pointless elim based on playstyle differences and personal dislike.

Solon who is literally refusing to play the game for no valid reason would have been a valid policy lynch but he plays conventionally so he's being let off with it

KayJayQueue is scum, take that to the bank, he's used everyone letting him off with his "uWU silly newbie me" posting because "Not_Mafia mean silly cow man" as an excuse to quickhammer scot free

KayJayQueue + Doctor Drew scum team, quote me now, thank me later

My interest in the game seriously wanes when there is a player basically game-throwing for the whole of D1. It's the first time I've ever chosen to vote off someone who isn't my biggest scumread just to get them out of the game.

Good riddance to you.

Hi Solon, any quick reads before day ends?

Why would I let scum know my thoughts heading into the night? That can wait until tomorrow.

[Solon]

I'm on holiday so have limited access.

I'm a weak one shot town neighbour and I targetted guy in freezer, so unfortunately wasted my shot.

[Solon]

Town friendly neighbour I mean.

I was going to target fancy but was worried he might be scum, and changed my mind last minute.

[Solon]

With this, my goal of "5 locktowns" has been achieved (Jackson, Malachai, Kay, Snow, Solon), so I no longer have to feel insecure about this game anymore and go back to being lazy bum.

And yes, I can hear Malachai screaming all the way from across the monitor.

@Solon

He had you as a "lock town" so why did you feel the need to tell him that you were?

My aim was to confirm him as town, not just to be confirmed myself.

It was a rushed pick as i'm on holiday. I just wanted to make sure I didn't hit scum, as I didn't crumb my target beforehand. If I chose scum then I would be dead.

[Solon]

With this, my goal of "5 locktowns" has been achieved (Jackson, Malachai, Kay, Snow, Solon), so I no longer have to feel insecure about this game anymore and go back to being lazy bum.

And yes, I can hear Malachai screaming all the way from across the monitor.

@Solon

He had you as a "lock town" so why did you feel the need to tell him that you were?

My aim was to confirm him as town, not just to be confirmed myself.

Well this confuses me. How does it confirm GIF as town for you to tell him that you are town? The wiki for this role tells me that this role involves YOU giving info to OTHERS, not the other way around. The only way you actually get info about him is if you die, which is obviously useless to town and is something you later say here that you're wanting to avoid anyway. So I'm not sure I follow your thought process here.

If I target GIF and I don't die, GIF is therefore confirmed town.

Unfortunately he died anyway. In hindsight I should have stuck with one of my original choices (Kay, Fancy).

[Solon]

V/LA until Monday

[Solon]

You don't seem to grasp that if I targetted scum I would be dead, and town none the wiser.

I originally targetted Kay, then changed to Fancy, then got cold feet last minute and changed to GIF. I'm on holiday, as I've said, and didn't have time to fully think through my last pick, I just wanted to make sure I didn't hit scum at that point.

[Solon]

My thought process was basically this:

I'll check kay as she's prob town and Fancy suspects her. Actually, I'll check Fancy as he is potentially getting mislimmed if he's town. Then after glancing through a few of his posts I thought Fancy could be scum, and I changed my pick with an hour to go while travelling on the bus to GIF, who I thought was most likely town, who would be good to confirm as town nonetheless.

I realised soon after this that he actually might be the NK, but it was too late for me to change my pick by that point.

[Solon]

V/LA until Monday

If at any point you could pop in and just give your current read on who you think is scum that would be awesome.

Without having read anything today apart from comments aimed at me, I think eliminating Snow, FancyPants and Drew in any order wins the game.

[Solon]

Well done.

So ultimately I was right about the Gob slot being town and the Not_Mafia slot being scum. Of course the mod cannot admit to it, but surely as town Not_Mafia would have been force-replaced for playing against his win condition, otherwise the game is broken.

It's a shame the mod had to threaten me in such a manner, for only playing the game and drawing logical conclusions based on the moderator's own actions. It has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

I actually think, to avoid this situation, slots like Not_Mafia should be force-replaced no matter the alignment, so we don't have to double-guess such game-throwing behaviour. Even though he flipped scum, it has killed my enthusiasm to play Mafia.