open 910 - a series of extremely codependent relationships i {game overrr)

[Black]

first!

[Black]

Drew did you roll lover with someone else

[Black]

Also I totally thought this was a regular lovers game, I was wondering why I didn't have a lover lol

Color me disappointed

mmhmmmmm

that's what you want me to think

who is it Drew? Hmmm? I bet it's white lotus

VOTE: White Lotus

[Black]

yaaawn. good morning everyone

I could have sworn you were on the east coast

[Black]

First, about myself. I'm new to this site, but not new to Mafia. I don't want to reveal anything more about my experience though.

VOTE: Bloodb0t

hi

Is there any reason in particular you don't want to reveal more about your mafia experience?

[Black]

I'm not sure what Blood's obsession with counter wagons is about

[Black]

I do think Enchant is town, Bianco not so sure about

Why is Enchant town?

[Black]

Well what's the point of having all the RVS votes split up on different people? I think having two wagons is better for generating discussion. Really, why NOT have a counterwagon? Even though the phrasing was silly, I did mean it as a question. I was just trying to generate discussion. I'm genuinely interested in people's reasons for or against.

I guess I don't take RVS as seriously, but I do agree that having competing wagons is good for generating discussion and moving us out of RVS

I don't think counterwagons are a super reliable way to read people when the votes are just random

[Black]

Anyways, I don't think sunflower would follow mirrored's vote on me like that if they were both scum, so if there's a scum in there I think mirrored. Mostly because of the comment about hiding previous mafia experience.

This read seems a little forced

[Black]

So it is just Drew/White Lotus huh

[Black]

It is pretty forced. That's my MO early game. It's barely a read but I'm just throwing it out there, again for generating discussion.

How many games have you played on MS and would you say that MO is pretty consistent throughout them? I could look but I'm on mobile rn and I'd rather engage with you about it anyway

[Black]

Are you the type of player that cares about how people read you when you're town?

[Black]

So I take that as a yes?

I'm the same way. Not limbaity, but I care about how people read me when I'm town. I think certain personality types are prone to it


Anyway I was asking because I think that could be a valid explanation for why you wrote 82 instead of letting it simmer. You saw people raise their eyebrows and you wanted to defend yourself

[Black]

tinfoiling Bloodb0t/Sunflower for post game cred

[Black]

Anyways, I don't think sunflower would follow mirrored's vote on me like that if they were both scum

Explain

I thought it would seem a little too obviously PT coordinated because you switched your vote so quickly after mirrored voted.

I'm a little confused because you said the read was forced in order to generate discussion, so do you really think this? Or are you forcing yourself to think this?

[Black]

I guess what I'm asking is how confident are you in your Sunflower/mirrored read

[Black]

I guess what I'm asking is how confident are you in your Sunflower/mirrored read

It was a passing thought that I exaggerated into a read. Yes, I did think that. It's a really weak read. I wouldn't vote on it or mention it if it wasn't so early.

What is the town motivation behind exaggerating the thought into a read? Like I think just mentioning the passing though in it's original state would be enough to create discussion. I'm curious why you're exaggerating it and what you're hoping to get out of it

[Black]

thought*

[Black]

I'm having a hard time drawing conclusions from this interaction. Gonna have to think on it

[Black]

yeah ummm black is scum

Why?

Her questioning of Blood seems fine

feels like it

yeah ummm black is scum

Why?

Her questioning of Blood seems fine

i liked it at first and then it kept going and then i didn't like it

Elaborate

[Black]

the digging into it afterwards idk, felt like you were looking for something to do rather than it really being something meaningful for alignment to me

One of my favorite ways to try and sort players I've never played with is to live post with them and to try and get a view into their thought process

[Black]

Black & White Lotus, what are your thoughts on each other?

I don't really have any meaningful thoughts there. I agree that Enchant seems to be engaged and trying hard but I'm not convinced that scum!Enchant wouldn't do that

[Black]

I'm back online and have read through everything. I have a schedule, but I should be able to post every day. Before I talk about anything else, I want to clarify a term - what is an MO?

Hi - do you have a response to 63?

[Black]

I'm back online and have read through everything. I have a schedule, but I should be able to post every day. Before I talk about anything else, I want to clarify a term - what is an MO?

Hi - do you have a response to 63?

Oops disregard this I didn't see your response at first

[Black]

I'm fine with my White Lotus vote for now

[Black]

I think I want to give my Blood read a little more time to cook

[Black]

I feel like they have been posting a lot but I'm not seeing any signs that they are actually trying to sort people

[Black]

From what I've seen of Drew he tends to latch on to weird details and annoy people as town. I haven't played in any games where he was scum but I read one of them and he seemed a lot more cautious. Maybe Drew is wrong about you but I decided to vote you because my 2 top town reads are already voting you.

Why do you townread Drew?

[Black]

Sunflower is there any reason neither of your heads have voted me yet? Seems like you've narrowed down your PoE enough to do so

[Black]

I'm in it for all 3 games though. Hopefully y'all don't read me wrong in all three

[Black]

Well I guess if I roll scum then I hope you do read me wrong

[Black]

I could compromise on mirrored. Or Drew. Think I would prefer White Lotus though

[Black]

None of my reads are very strong at all so I feel like I'm going to have to end up voting for someone I'm not confident about at all

[Black]

what's your read on us?

I kinda townread Jupiter thinking I'm scum but telling me "no" when I asked him to elaborate

Other than that I'm not getting much

[Black]

That's metal af

[Black]

Sunflower is there any reason neither of your heads have voted me yet? Seems like you've narrowed down your PoE enough to do so

idk how to push people LOL not feeling confident about anyone at all tbhh

I mean same wrt the second part but I feel like the first part isn't true? I've seen you vote for and push people you think are scum before

[Black]

Ok that makes sense

Would you be willing to vote for White Lotus?

[Black]

Oh duh. Sorry my brain is a little fried from work today

[Black]

So WL has been at e-1 for a minute and no hammers

To me that indicates either

A) they are scum and we need one more townie to hammer them
B) they are town and scum is on the wagon already
C) they are town, the wagon is all town, and scum is waiting to hammer in order to not look suspicious

[Black]

Also there's a chance WL is town and one scum is on the wagon and the other scum is waiting to hammer to avoid suspicion

[Black]

I think we push WL through and analyze the situation after if the game doesn't end

[Black]

To be clear I definitely don't mind waiting until closer to the deadline. I can see how me saying "push WL through" makes it seem like I want to do it immediately

[Black]

I want to hear more from mirrored because he's my #1 suspect for a WL partner. Sunflower is probably second but only because they've been subtly defending WL and that's exactly how I think scum would treat a buddy in this setup. Otherwise I don't think they've been particularly scum.y

[Black]

Mostly gut. I feel like they've been a little on edge and defensive and not really in the townie way. I also don't get the sense that they're really trying to sort anyone

[Black]

oh i forgot drew was the one who originally called enchant towny for similar reasons in 83

is it silly to consider it towny that drew reversed course on that pretty quickly and decided to then push enchant even as they continued to be active? maybe

some might call it scummily inconsistent even. i don't know why my instinct is to call it towny

i guess because it feels less agenda'd, like he didn't just write off enchant in his brain as "oh well enchant is polarized and already towntelled so they can't be pushed". he continued to evaluate

Idk why but this feels partnered with Drew

It's funny that I have a slight townlean on you but I'm finding that you make sense as a partner to quite a few slots

Paranoia is fun

[Black]

That being said, Sunflower how would you feel about a Drew fade?

[Black]

i think it's hard for me to imagine heavily protesting any flip in particular at this time tbh. maybe id protest bloodb0t

drew wouldn't be my favorite choice but i find drew difficult to sort so idk

do you think he's scummy? i think you've played with him more than i have

I've played with Drew quite a bit but I'm still not great at reading him. I can't recall any major differences between his town and scum games. I'm not sure if that's because there aren't any or if my memory is just atrocious

I think his playstyle and availability makes him a difficult read. He's not very active and when he's here he usually just hones in on what he was talking about before which can sometimes seem scummy to me on the surface, but then I realize he does it as town so it's hard to parse

[Black]

But you also think WL is towny and you want to flip them.

Or you're not protesting anyway

Tbf they kinda covered that in 239

[Black]

Did you not understand my issue and why I called it a contradiction?

Both what Sunflower and what Blood said could be construed as a dumb tell, yet Enchant only called one out.

Admittedly saying Sunflower was dumb telling especially since it was the first real 'read' of the game made me think Enchant was town, but how they, and now you', are dancing around Blood seems sketch to me.

You are right, I don't understand your issue. What blood said is not a dumbtell, at least not by my definition; that would require blood to say something mechanically false which just didn't happen.

Btw, what do you rekon scum!we are shadowly doing here? Is blood our buddy?
~b

Well it wasn't 'we', it was Enchant. And this isn't an argument about whether Blood, or Sunflower, was dumb telling or not.

Enchant called out Jupiter(Sunflower) for a perceived dumb tell, but not Blood for something that can definitely be called a dumb tell.

Ok Drew trolling at this point.

We can go 1vs1 in this case.

VOTE: Drew

~ Wizard Enchanticus

I don't think Enchant actually believes Drew is scum here. And I especially don't think the read is strong enough to declare a 1v1. This reaction seems over the top

[Black]

Ok makes sense.

viewtopic.php?t=92139

Blood, you said you wanted some scum games from me right? Here is one, when home on my laptop I will dig up some more if you want.

Black was also in this game as town, she said she has trouble reading me, but I thought I remember her pretty much on me as scum that game(even had me fooled thinking that she town read me lol), so I feel like she would at least be ok at reading me here.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day

[Black]

What do you think your scum and town tells are?

[Black]

I don't keep track of people's meta like that. It's not like I have an MS filing cabinet with everyone's tells. My brain doesn't work that way. I feel like I have a grasp on certain tells from certain people but even those can be fuzzy

I don't really think meta is all that reliable. It hits every now and then but generally I feel like it's overused. Sometimes it's hard not to use it when the tell seems strong but the first time you're wrong about it it's like...welp...

[Black]

What's your read on me Drew

[Black]

What's your read on me Drew

Prob town

The only thing that gives me a slight pause is you coming across as town leader a bit, like trying to control the line of questioning, but that is probably more paranoia than anything.

I do feel like you should get my town game more, at the very least, but again again I understand I come across as a riddle wrapped in an enigma lol

I feel like I'm a town leader in most games I play? At least in the sense of posting a lot and being in the middle of the discussion

I don't think I can be sure that whatever your town game looks like can't come from scum!you

[Black]

There are some walls after that post that I'm gonna have to read later when I get time

[Black]

Who do you want to fade today fire

[Black]

So it is just Drew/White Lotus huh

What if this is just correct

[Black]

So it is just Drew/White Lotus huh

What if this is just correct

Could be... But then WL insisting on the 1v1 seems to go against that?

You can see them already backing off of the Drew scumread though. I don't think they intend to actually go through with it

[Black]

[Black]

Welp

[Black]

I know she isn't around too much on the weekend, but I really want to hear from Black

I'm here. I don't really have much to say. I'll try to organize my thoughts after work

[Black]

I think we push WL through and analyze the situation after if the game doesn't end

whats your analysis

I haven't analyzed yet

[Black]

i feel like drew and/or black should have had more consideration of enchant being towny and im not really sure why that never seemed to happen

idk maybe i should have challenged them to think about things more

I considered it. I wasn't confident about them flipping scum

[Black]

i still think bloodb0t on page 12 is positioning in a very scummy/appeasing way and i am curious on black's thoughts on this

I can see it. It feels a little stiff. I think 282 feels worse than his read on me

[Black]

mirrored > black > drew > WL > bloodb0t > sunflower

@Sunflower Am I still #1 on your SR list?

i think one of blood/black is scum but very likely not both

i still think bloodb0t on page 12 is positioning in a very scummy/appeasing way and i am curious on black's thoughts on this

Sunflower why does it seem like you're looking at Blood closer than me when I should be one of your top suspects

Can you talk about your read progression on blood

[Black]

i haven't really ever had much reason to suspect you i just haven't found a reason to townread you other

idk i think right now i feel like i need to find town and if you're town then i think you're more findable to me if i am giving you the room to be towny rather than pressuring

I haven't really been pressured at all this game and you still haven't found a reason to townread me so what makes you think that will change?

[Black]

I kinda want to fade Drew to honor the 1v1. I don't think he's been particularly townie

[Black]

The whole "I can't believe Black doesn't recognize my town game" isn't sitting right with me

[Black]

My reads suck

[Black]

What?

[Black]

Oh no lol. I was just looking at the game and realized I have a bad grasp on it

[Black]

Mirrored what is your read on me

[Black]

Hmmm

[Black]

VOTE: mirrored

[Black]

My confidence in this vote is significantly low

[Black]

(and possibly enjoying a drink.....not whiskey though lol)

You mean you actually drink other things? gasp

[Black]

Do you find us(WL and I) both scummy because of associatives.....or just mainly individually?

I feel like scum!Drew is more likely to ask this question than town!Drew

[Black]

I know she isn't around too much on the weekend, but I really want to hear from Black

Drew what was going on in your head when you wrote this

[Black]

I know she isn't around too much on the weekend, but I really want to hear from Black

Drew what was going on in your head when you wrote this

It's the same reason I thought you would know my town game

I don't understand this as an answer to my question. Can you rephrase?

[Black]

Do you find us(WL and I) both scummy because of associatives.....or just mainly individually?

I feel like scum!Drew is more likely to ask this question than town!Drew

Please explain

This was in response to you and Blood posturing that the team was WL and I

Like, if WL flipped scum I see the angle you have here.....maybe

Pre Edit: What? When did I call Black scum by poe??

I guess let me ask you this first. Why did you ask me this? Like what were you hoping to get out of the line of questioning

[Black]

I know she isn't around too much on the weekend, but I really want to hear from Black

Drew what was going on in your head when you wrote this

It's the same reason I thought you would know my town game

I don't understand this as an answer to my question. Can you rephrase?

I cannot

Fr? Why not? Maybe I'm dumb but your answer doesn't make sense

[Black]

i think one of blood/black is scum but very likely not both

It doesn't feel like your posting today has aligned with this belief. I don't see any real attempts to sort out which is scum between blood and I

[Black]

VOTE: Sunflower

[Black]

Do you find us(WL and I) both scummy because of associatives.....or just mainly individually?

I feel like scum!Drew is more likely to ask this question than town!Drew

Please explain

This was in response to you and Blood posturing that the team was WL and I

Like, if WL flipped scum I see the angle you have here.....maybe

Pre Edit: What? When did I call Black scum by poe??

I guess let me ask you this first. Why did you ask me this? Like what were you hoping to get out of the line of questioning

You postulated it was me and WL seemingly as a 'hey wait, is it them?' sort of random thought.

I was trying to figure you out at that point, and didn't fully understand why you would jump to the conclusion that you jumped to.

So I wanted to find out how you came to that conclusion

I guess it didn't feel like a solving question to me. You seemed to have some confidence that I was town at the time. You said the only thing holding you back was that I was being a town leader. So this question coming after that seemed more like you were trying to figure out the severity of my scumread on you which I think is more likely to come from scum!you. I think I could just be wrong though

[Black]

i am pretty confident that you're town and i currently think it's drew/mirrored for full disclosure

Can you elaborate on your drew/mirrored theory

[Black]

Oh nvm

[Black]

I feel like Drew having mirrored as his second voting option is pretty counter intuitive if they are scum together. Like yeah I can see it being a bluff but at some point Drew could easily be forced to vote there and lose the game

[Black]

fire what is your current read on blood? (sorry if you've mentioned recently)

[Black]

VOTE: Drew

[Black]

VOTE: Drew

ping

Why should I unvote?

[Black]

Even if mirrored came through and hammered immediately wouldn't we just flip blood or mirrored and win the game?

[Black]

I agree the sudden vote seems scary but I don't think scum can win the game by quick hammering here

[Black]

if we hammer a town it's 2 v 2 right

That would be 5 left with no night kills right?

[Black]

UNVOTE:

[Black]

Freaking first post isn't updated and I didn't realize WL was in the living list

[Black]

I still think we vote Drew but I'm down to wait a little bit. Deadline is looming

[Black]

not actually gonna cry don't take that as emotional manipulation pls

[Black]

I like you

[Black]

Low-key wanna vote Blood now

[Black]

Low-key wanna vote Blood now

do you think blood would vote here rather than wait for mirrored if they're partnered

I guess not

[Black]

I want to fade Drew and I won't have much time before the deadline to get a clearer picture

I'll probably be placing my vote before I go to bed

[Black]

Thoughts fire?

[Black]

Yeah I think Drew is just scum

[Black]

I actually think it's probably Drew/Sunflower

[Black]

Sunflower thinks it's mirrored/Drew but is reluctant to vote Drew

[Black]

ill be back in a bit but i probably wanna vote drew

Do it

[Black]

I don't think it's blood

It can't be mirrored/sunflower because fire would have hammered Drew

It's either Drew/sunflower or Drew/mirrored

We just go Drew here

[Black]

VOTE: Drew

[Black]

Sorry if this is wrong

[Black]

You made me unvote

[Black]

I know

[Black]

You can change that

[Black]

We lose if it's mirrored/blood

[Black]

They deserve it imo. Hammer this

[Black]

You would say that as scum though

[Black]

fun fact on mobile the pfps are kinda small and at first i thought mirrored's pfp was a weird looking hornet from hollow knight

I thought it was something else too

Saw it properly for the first time tonight actually

[Black]

However she votes, I will vote. I take full blame if it's wrong and give her full credit if it's right.

We wait for mirrored to hammer

[Black]

black, confirming you prefer drew over mirrored? you're clearing blood?

if so ill just hammer

I think it's Drew

[Black]

Well Drew?

[Black]

I'm town btw

[Black]

NOOOOOO

Pedit: oh thank god

[Black]

So we win?

[Black]

i am pretty confident that you're town and i currently think it's drew/mirrored for full disclosure

Good stuff fire

[Black]

Of course I was scum

Mirror was supposed to be online now so we could manipulate the quick hammer......but I was left by my own devices haha

Oof

How dare you roll lovers with someone else though. You deserve to die

[Black]

EXCITED TO DO IT TWO MORE TIMES LETS GOOO

LFG!!!

[Black]

3-0 incoming

[Black]

We won just in time for me to go to bed

goodnight friends

[Black]

VOTE: mirrored

this vote was a pretty big turning point for town bc we were in a situation where things were heading towards a me vs mirrored 1v1 which scum was ready to win (since blood prooobably votes me over mirrored there). and nobody else really felt confident enough on a read to start off the voting

but since blood townread black and i townread black, this suddenly shifted things from a losing position into a winning position, and drew had to scramble to try to divert and salvage. which i respect the effort, he went down fighting! but town did well to stay locked in enough

everyone please read pages 15-17 and take notes on the flow of gamestate. there will be a quiz in game 2 so that we all can learn for next time

I wish I could say I had some revelation but this vote was a result of my reads being so bad that I decided to just trust my original gut read on you and sheep you

[Black]

Thanks to my partner Drew, and thanks to everyone for playing.

It was great playing with you! gg

[Black]

gg everyone!

I kinda liked the slow pace of this one. Looking forward to the second installment

[Black]

I'm going to try not to hold back my thoughts as much. I think I was trying to play too safe. I'm still generally inclined to just sheep my strongest TR but I'll try to include more unfiltered thoughts to spice things up more.

I think you should sheep me in game 2 regardless of my alignment