Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[iLord]

Just a quick note: I'm very busy for the next week and I'm looking for replacements for Dattebayo and Electra.

[sirdanilot]

You implied the miller (nat) is scum, nat says 'so that makes me scum [sarcasm]' gw says 'he didn't attack you for it' nat 'he implied i am scum' gw 'oh I didn't see an actual miller can't have scumbuddies' dgb 'oh so you believe the miller claim'

GW doesn't understand you and you don't understand gw.

Nat may be slightly overdefending on the trading with xtoxm part, and is majorly underdefending on the playstyle part. wondering why

[DrippingGoofball]

Nat may be slightly overdefending on the trading with xtoxm part, and is majorly underdefending on the playstyle part. wondering why

What does Occam's razor dictate?

[sirdanilot]

You tell me!

[malthusis]

Occham's Razor dictates that the simplest idea must be true. This means that instead of having all sorts of assumptions, you use the simplest truth (ie. Nat is scum).

[DrippingGoofball]

Occham's Razor dictates that the simplest idea must be true. This means that instead of having all sorts of assumptions, you use the simplest truth (ie. Nat is scum).

My thoughts exactly.

SirD seems to disagree.

[sirdanilot]

Actually I do agree. I wanted to hear someone else say it, and yes I know what Occam's Razor is.

Thank you for the comment.

more nat votes please lalala

[iLord]

Replacement Again (Day 3)

Jahudo is replacing Electra.

Master Ruck is replacing Dattebayo.

Mass Prods going out tommorrow.

[Master Ruck]

For now, just here to say hi.

I've read through everything so far, though I'm likely to do a better re-read later. British time zone means I'm gonna go sleep soon so I'll give my opinions tomorrow.

[Jahudo]

Hello. I'm off to read.

[sirdanilot]

NOTE: For some reason I have trouble posting. A post I made a while ago just magically disappeared, and when I just tried to click the 'post reply' button I got redirected to the index (which is why I'm now using the quick reply box). If you see me disappear in the near future, at least you know why.

Hi replacements! Could you please make sure to pay attention to Natirasha's play while you are rereading? Thank you!

[Master Ruck]

SirD, your post dissapeared as you made it between the site down times and everything made in that gap is deleted. I had a PM in my box at that time and that's gone now as well.

Anyhow, I've gone through D1 in detail (I'll do D2 later. Going out soon) and to your dismay, sird, I don't find anything particularly scummy about nat. I know she's a good player and I'm not ruling out that her play is a very good scum ruse, but I'm more inclined to believe she's town and that she's a miller.

You, on the other hand, while not being obviously scummy, have tended to push some matters above and beyond the call of duty when it wasn't called for. It's not enough for a vote, but here's looking at you.

I'll make another post when I've gone through D2.

[Master Ruck]

And by she I meant he for natirasha. Don't know why I thought he was a gal.

[sirdanilot]

You, on the other hand, while not being obviously scummy, have tended to push some matters above and beyond the call of duty when it wasn't called for. It's not enough for a vote, but here's looking at you.

Not sure what you mean here. Also what are you thoughts of claiming miller day 1. Do you think it is a good strategy?

[DrippingGoofball]

Why is the miller still alive?

[sirdanilot]

Mass replacements and general inactivity. A player who isn't there can't place a vote on Natirasha.

[DrippingGoofball]

Let's hope they are on board with today's programme.

[malthusis]

Just waiting for lurkers to chime in with their views.

Mass replacements and general inactivity. A player who isn't there can't place a vote on Natirasha.

QFT

[Jahudo]

I'm all read up but I have questions about the trading/cheating mechanics so I don't know what to make of the recent talk about answer #7, etc.

Firstly: I don't like miller claim's at the start of day 1, I don't think it's in the same league as claiming PGO, and the only thing it does is make me pay more attention to the behavior of that person (which in itself makes me wonder why scum would put themselves in the spotlight immediately).

Secondly: Based on the game's actions so far I think Sirdan looks scummier than Nat. Here's some PbPa:

Sirdan 200:

A) Sirdan lightly FoS armix but I don’t really see the need of bolding it in that case if it’s not a strong feeling.
B) He then makes a big point out of Animorph not reading the facts about what Nat and DH had claimed, when in reality Sirdan hadn’t read those facts either in post 98.

Sirdan 98:

A) He doesn’t explain why he’s voting for someone.
B) He also misread because DH had preveiously posted to clarify that he was indeed a miller (and already wondering 2 millers), not that he thought but didn't know he was a miller. Sirdan simply misread like he claimed Ani did.
*To be fair, Dattebayo, Axelrod and Malthusis also misread DH in the exact same way, but they didn't make a case about misreading and the latter 2 could have been influenced more by Datte and Sirdan who were first to post this falsehood.

Sirdan 216:

A) Sirdan makes a good point: Animorph didn’t role claim, he only character claimed. Class Clown doesn’t tell us much and character claims aren’t even scummy IMO.
B) The fact that Sirdan understands that Animorph’s claim doesn’t have role information makes his day 1 eagerness to pressure look scummy.

Sirdan 253:

A) Sirdan says a counter answer claim to Animorph would get ani in trouble, but doesn’t ani’s role imply he has wrong answers? I think this is called the "No True Scotsman" scumtell, because you are eliminating a way for Ani to be townie according to his role.

Sirdan 286:

A) How were Nat and Xtoxm close?
B) Post 5 point is incorrect because Nat said he didn’t set alerts day 1 and then said he set alerts day 3. No contradiction there.
C) I agree his vote on DH could be seen as opportunistic because he didn’t state his reason for voting or say anything else in that post. His reason for lynching animorph does not look opportunistic to me, he gives a better reason than the jester claim but I’ll let Nat defend this if he wants.
D)

48 - thought ani claimed miller, ' I think it's town it sounds like a scum gambit i'd employ' what?
61 - 'i never said that '
65 - now he says 'the claim is true but I think he's scum'

I think you’re misinterpreting these, but maybe Nat will eventually defend it instead of dismissing your case.

Vote: Sirdanilot

[Jahudo]

Other things I want to bring up:

Re: Nat's Day 1 hammer: Given the sequence of events I can understand not knowing it was a hammer. It doesn't look like a tell since the vote count was incorrect.

Re: GW's Day 2 hammer: I would think that town and scum in Ani's situation would act the same way; ie: picking at anything and hoping it would stick. It doesn't look out of character so was that the final straw that forced the hammer?

Re: DGB's 284: I don't know what to make of the idea that people start out with 2 answers as standard. I would think that an Armix-town would only give a confirmed correct answer to someone he thought was town, so I agree that the other #7 is probably fake.

@Nat's 289:

StrangerCoug is not in the game so why did he trade? How do you not know who you cheated off of last night? And please explain which numbers you traded/cheated each time so we can follow this fake #7.

@Malt's 289:

Would an explanation (partial or full) help the town here? How much to catch scum?

@Sirdan's 298:

Would an explanation (partial or full) help the town here? How much to catch scum?

And I have a few suspicions after Sirdanilot but they are not strong enough for a vote:

Nat 74

Nat Says ani’s not scummy enough for a vote yet but he does ahead and votes, so he's contradicting himself.

Malthusis 108

A) Malthusis misread here because DH had previously posted to clarify that he was a miller too, not that he thought he was a miller. (Datte had the same misread in post 96, as did Sirdan in 98, and Axel in 99)
B) Also his opinion on powers seems conflicted. He thinks powers are tailor made to certain roles but he also thinks that is not the case for millers. He doesn’t explain this discrepancy.

Axelrod 118

Axel is practically role-fishing here by looking for the best townies to cheat off of or get killed by scum.

[iLord]

Tommorrow ended up being today. I'll give people one more day for them to realize that the site's back up, just to be fair.

[Jahudo]

I am I Class Clown.

I had 1 and 6, B and D respectivly.

Armix and Sirdan confirmed that 1 of these had been right, and Nat said both were right. But apparently, I just found out that Electra used those answers and got them wrong. What gives?

[Master Ruck]

You, on the other hand, while not being obviously scummy, have tended to push some matters above and beyond the call of duty when it wasn't called for. It's not enough for a vote, but here's looking at you.

Not sure what you mean here. Also what are you thoughts of claiming miller day 1. Do you think it is a good strategy?

What I mean by this is that I find, to some extent, your arguments against ani to be reasoned, but you push too far and argue beyond what is needed. You make your point very clearly that you don't allow newbies to make that kind of mistake, but you push it so far it gets old and strange as to why you would push it so much.

As for claiming miller D1, I endorse it. I've been playing mafia on another board where I was scum and scanned so I had to claim miller. I argued too much and it got me lynched, but one of the townies had a big go at me before my death asking why I didn't role claim D1 and save all of this trouble. If Nat is truly the miller, which I believe, then waiting for any kind of cop scan on him before claiming will bring suspicion to everyone instantly by saying that the claim seems too convenient. Sure Nat may have said something that makes him suspicious, but so does everyone at one point so I believe his claim and that he's town.

Besides, at the point we're at it's too dangerous to risk lynching him as, if he is a miller, then we've lost one more town and we're that bit closer to losing. Right now we're better off looking for more scum.

[Natirasha]

A few things.

1. To sird, I will have a seperate post talking to you. However, after that *last* game, I no longer respond/believe in PBPAs except from the most highest tiered players, which I am unsure you are yet.

2. If I am miller/PGO/bad townie role, I claim D1 on principle. Especially after Vollkan showed that it can easily break setups when done correctly.

3. DGB--you and I are really similar players, aren't we?

4. If one of those answers is wrong, I do not know. Like I said, having all but two questions, they start to get muddled.

5. I meant animorpherv1, not StrangerCoug. Their avatars have a similar composition and coloring, sorry for that inconvienance. Also, on further review, it seems I did...not...cheat...last night..?

[sirdanilot]

Secondly: Based on the game's actions so far I think Sirdan looks scummier than Nat. Here's some PbPa:

Sirdan 200:

A) Sirdan lightly FoS armix but I don’t really see the need of bolding it in that case if it’s not a strong feeling.
B) He then makes a big point out of Animorph not reading the facts about what Nat and DH had claimed, when in reality Sirdan hadn’t read those facts either in post 98.

A) Oh wow, that's such a scum tell. I bolded a light FoS. Sorry scumteam. Should I claim now?
B) I have, look:

Sirdan 98:

A) He doesn’t explain why he’s voting for someone.
B) He also misread because DH had preveiously posted to clarify that he was indeed a miller (and already wondering 2 millers), not that he thought but didn't know he was a miller. Sirdan simply misread like he claimed Ani did.
*To be fair, Dattebayo, Axelrod and Malthusis also misread DH in the exact same way, but they didn't make a case about misreading and the latter 2 could have been influenced more by Datte and Sirdan who were first to post this falsehood.

A) Oh come on, I posted my case on animorpher earlier. Point invalid.
B) Huh? How did I misread this? Isn't this exactly what I meant? That DH claimed miller?

Sirdan 216:

A) Sirdan makes a good point: Animorph didn’t role claim, he only character claimed. Class Clown doesn’t tell us much and character claims aren’t even scummy IMO.
B) The fact that Sirdan understands that Animorph’s claim doesn’t have role information makes his day 1 eagerness to pressure look scummy.

Oh come on are we going through this all again? Read my discussions with Dattebayo on why I thought he was scummy. Okay, I was wrong. Does this make me scum? No. Since I happen to be town, I don't know the alignments of the players. That's the point of the game, really.

Sirdan 253:

A) Sirdan says a counter answer claim to Animorph would get ani in trouble, but doesn’t ani’s role imply he has wrong answers? I think this is called the "No True Scotsman" scumtell, because you are eliminating a way for Ani to be townie according to his role.

I didn't think of that his role implied he had most answers wrong. Anyway, he did have two right answers so how would that have cleared him?

Sirdan 286:

A) How were Nat and Xtoxm close?
B) Post 5 point is incorrect because Nat said he didn’t set alerts day 1 and then said he set alerts day 3. No contradiction there.
C) I agree his vote on DH could be seen as opportunistic because he didn’t state his reason for voting or say anything else in that post. His reason for lynching animorph does not look opportunistic to me, he gives a better reason than the jester claim but I’ll let Nat defend this if he wants.
D)

48 - thought ani claimed miller, ' I think it's town it sounds like a scum gambit i'd employ' what?
61 - 'i never said that '
65 - now he says 'the claim is true but I think he's scum'

I think you’re misinterpreting these, but maybe Nat will eventually defend it instead of dismissing your case.

Vote: Sirdanilot

A) I know this via PMs. I think I may actually reveal the PMs at some point. I am sure that they will be quite persuasive.
B)

Additionally, I am not setting any alerts. Anyone who wants to cheat off me can.

this is what he said. He didn't say anything about which day he was talking about.
C) Sure let Nat defend this.
D) Sure let Nat defend this.
Until Nat defends himself, I feel that my points are valid. Burden of proof is with him to disprove my points now.