Martyr Mafia - Game Over

[ting =)]

Vote:zachattack

Hi.

[ting =)]

If we kill the cult leaders, this may be a sort of indirect way of killing God - He knows who the cult leaders are, it may help us in the finding of god.

God doesn't need to care if the cult leaders die, he wins on his own. Although yes, dead cult leaders is also a good thing.

[ting =)]

Godtell.

Vote: ting =)

For thinking about how the roles might interact with each other?

I would rather assume that I will be converted then attempt to lynch god.

If we kill 2 cult leaders, the game ends and we lose. Killing recruits is the second best thing to killing God.

I was thinking about both of these last night. It'd be harder to win as a cult member than as an agnostic since you'll have to kill off the other two cults as while making sure God doesn't die. As an agnostic, the best way to win would be to try and kill God before we get culted, not resign yourself to being culted eventually and work on a win from there.

The second one I'm not so sure. Going after recruits means one/two of the cults will be stronger than the other.

[ting =)]

unvote. vote: zakeri.

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@X.
After God, I'd rather kill a cult leader than a cult member. I think you're forgetting that the cults will grow by three every night with leaders alive. Right now, there are 6 cultists - 3 leaders, 3 members. Tomorrow night, there will be 9 cultists. One player will be lynched, another will be hit by God's NK. That means that the majority of the players will be cults already (assuming God doesn't kill a cultie). If all the cults combined, not just one, achieve majority - we can't lynch God anymore. At best, we have only until day 3 to lynch God. After that, it's up to Nietsczhe. Obviously, killing God is our main priority, but hunting down the cult leaders should be next so that we can slow their growth, not going after recruits.

[ting =)]

because without a reason to attack jebus, I've been reduced back to random voting.

Three pages worth of reactions and you fall back to random voting? I could think of a number of people maybe worth pressuring.

[ting =)]

I now find both Jebus and Zakeri suspicious.

Jebus, because his latest post reads like either a backtrack or a mistake (I had no problem with his original post about mask man).

Zakeri because I don't like her random DGB vote. It reads like not wanting to commit to a case on anyone.

[ting =)]

Any thoughts on any of the players then, myko?

[ting =)]

If you had to peg someone as god based on the current information, myko, who do you think would it be?

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@myko.

If you had to peg someone as god based on the current information, myko, who do you think would it be?

@zakeri.

Three pages worth of reactions and you fall back to random voting?

Zakeri because I don't like her random DGB vote. It reads like not wanting to commit to a case on anyone.

Why'd you go back to random voting zakeri?

unvote. vote: zwetschenwasser

My vote goes back to zakeri after this.

[ting =)]

It's pretty clear I'm asking you to guess. Pick someone.

[ting =)]

'After this' as in when zwet either gets lynched or gives me a good reason to switch my vote. Not 'after this' as in 'after an arbitrary period of time.'

[ting =)]

FoS: DGB, qwints, Jebus, ting, bloodmoney

We're looking for God, not the Islamic CL. I guarantee there is more than one Christian/Jew voting for zwet.

Of course we're looking for God. You don't see any good in voting for a self claimed CL though?

as for going back to the random voting stage, I feel it's important to get a lot of reactions. I did it more because my plan of attack had fallen through (in my opinion) then anything else, though.

What reactions were you expecting by going back to random voting? Do you expect those reactions to be useful at all? Why does 'plan of attack falling through' lead to 'go back to random voting'? And again, how was random voting a better option than making a case on someone else?

@myko.
Care to share it?

[ting =)]

No, ting, I thought how I would play if I was god. I would think it far too easy to lurk. I would try to stay active from the start of the game, talking here and there. Didn't need to be usefull, but show like it was. I would also, like ordinary scum like a case on me (while this is mostly gut) to defend, because you know there is nothing against you.

So, the 'light' is me staying active and 'looking-useful-but-not-actually-useful.' Oh, and the fact that I have a 'case' on me to defend makes me scum-ish. Insightful.

You're on my hitlist by the way. More for the fact that I had to ask you

three

times in order to get you to make a guess on who might be God than for the vote though.

[ting =)]

and I still can't understand why you would ask me three times to do that. It doesn't tell a thing, because I don't know anything, but still you are very eager to get that out of me. How protown you must be...

You came in late. I knew absolutely nothing about you. You said absolutely nothing in your opening post that was related to your suspicions, or about any of the other players.

A direct question about who you found suspicious was in order. So I asked.

And how do you see my asking it as making me anti-town? Did you see the question as harming the town? Did you think answering it would have helped the cults/god or hurt nietsczhe/agnostics?

[ting =)]

no, not really. It only showed to me that you were a little overconcerned with how protown you looked. I think the question was not that usefull, esspecially after I told that I had trouble with seeing anything scummy. Still you continued to force a name out of me. For what use? I think it had use to you.

Concerned with how protown I looked? My question was:

If you had to peg someone as god based on the current information, myko, who do you think would it be?

How does that make me look protown, exactly? It's a straightforward question obviously meant to learn more about you. How did you see it as reflecting positively on me?

Oh, the question was useful, to everyone. You were revealing very little about your view on the others. You had 5ish pages worth of info and said that you had 'no read' when you came in. Do you see it hurting the town in any way now that we know one thing about your view on the players?

[ting =)]

We've officially just gone in a circle and should stop so we don't clog the thread. Last point:

So what was the use of it?

Like I've said, to learn more about you, something which I find useful, and which I think would be useful to everyone else as well. If you choose to see an ulterior motive behind that, that's entirely up to you.

[ting =)]

...did you expect anything

other

than attacks on you to come from your random vote?

Are you pretty much just saying you did something that is highly interpretable as scummy in order to troll for reactions and didn't expect people to see you as scummy for it?

[ting =)]

@EA.

You don't see any good in

voting

for a self claimed CL though?

My question was if you saw any good in

voting

for zwet, I never said I'd lynch CL over God. There are only three people in this game who know who the true Islam CL is; God, the Islam CL, and the recruit. I wanted to see what people would do. I don't think I'll get anything more out of my zwet vote.

unvote.

I don't have time now to read the last two pages, I just skimmed through. I'll cast my vote on someone tomorrow after actually reading.

[ting =)]

1. If a cult leader is killed off, what happens to the cult (and all its members)?

The cult members lose when the game ends, unless they get recruited.

2. Can a cult leader turn an enemy cultist? If he/she can't, then can he/she turn an enemy cultist after the enemy cultist's leader is killed?

No. Yes.

Okay, I have free time. I'll catch up and post something within the hour.

[ting =)]

Zakeri:
The whole Jebus-outing-Nietzche thing.
Random vote on DGB.
Wishes could vote for both DGB and Zwet. post 7.

---
My only beef with Zakeri was with her random vote. I didn't read anything scummy into the Jebus thing. I think I'm satisfied with Zakeri's explanation on her random vote, so I don't really have any beef with him anymore.

Just one question though: You haven't removed your unvote of DGB. In light of your 7th post, do you intend to leave it on DGB? If yes, could you elaborate why?

********

@tajo.
I've more than given my reasoning for my mykonian suspicion before. Do you disagree with any of it? How was I heavyhanded? If I recall, I was the one who actually decided the end the argument instead of continue pushing it.

On hindsight though, I'm just going to chalk it up to myko having a different playstyle than mine and reacting differently than what I'd expect. What I'd interpret as him not wanting to endanger anyone might just be him being naturally cautious.

********

I side with silver phoenix in the whole jahudo-jebus/maskman thing.

********

Bloodmoney-zach seems like much ado about nothing. It started with bloodmoney calling zach lazy and then evolved into a shouting match. I don't think it says anything about either of their alignments. I don't like how SP made an issue of it though. I like less how Blood started calling SP and zach buddies for it, but I think all of this is just mountains out of molehills.

********

Re: People looking like they're trying to take heat out of Zakeri.

Really? Did you guys expect anything other than multiple people coming into suspicion in a mafia game? More than one person looking suspicious in a game is normal, it doesn't mean they're trying to cover for each other. I can understand the focus on zwet since his 'claim' was deliberate, but I think saying that maskman(and others I may have forgotten) is trying to distract from Zakeri is just reading too much into it.

********

Blood calling SP cult in post 177 seems omgus-y. You originally called him cult for his alleged connection to zach. You wtihdrew your attack on zach. Why are you still calling him cult if you don't think zach is anymore?

********

@tajo's 185, 188.

That's a horrible reason to think zwet is an obv agnostic. He's playing badly, so he's obviously a good guy? How is that not circular logic?

********

@Double-A, Indigo:

Based on the ten pages so far, what are your thoughts of everyone? I'm not asking for a summary of thoughts on every player, just people who you think stick out and why.

********

Vote: Sir Tornado.

Lurky. Any thoughts on the game?

Mod: Prod please?

[ting =)]

I never withdrew my attack on zach. His initial laziness is still bugging me, because a vote like that might, in better places, be interpreted as opportunistic. And if a connection is implicated from one side why are you implying that I should only suspect one half of the implied pair?

Ok, thank you. You

(zach)

could do that next time without me having to cuss at you.

SP is still cult though.

This gave me the impression you were no longer suspicious of Zach. Which made me wonder why you were still suspicious of SP since your suspicion of him was born of what you thought was a connection between him and Zach. Since it turns out you're still suspicious of zach after all though, I no longer have an issue with this.

[ting =)]

@blood.
You went after zach first before you went after SP. Yes?

If I wasn't clear enough, zach isn't suspicious for what he did, he's suspicious for what SP did.

Why that then?

Also,

On the other hand, SP's reactions imply a connection between zach and SP. And when a connection is implied, even if only on one side, the other side deserves suspicion as well if only by association.

Yeah. I just said as much in my previous post. I could quote it for you if you want. Did you have a point in bringing this up?

[ting =)]

I think we can say that someone that has claimed cult till now, can't be god. God would never wifom us that way, as it would make people look at him. He doesn't want to be in the center of the attention.

Wifom? yes. Likely? no.

I disagree. Notice how a number of people are opposed to anything that isn't a God lynch. Couple that with the fact that by Day 2, it'll be near impossible for the agnostics to control the lynch, and I think that a smart God might very well try to do this kind of wifom. I don't think we can discard the possiblity of God trying to wifom us this way.

----

@orto.
Really? He's acting like a townie, so he's obviously not a townie? If you think something about Jebus' posts seems fake, fine. Otherwise, that logic as just as circular as tajo's too scummy call on zwet.

[ting =)]

@orto.
What about it seemed fake?

@myko.
Yeah, that's what I disagreed with. I don't think it's unlikely at all. Although this is all moot since God is obviously reading this discussion.

[ting =)]

@orto.
Those make the stuff Jebus said obvious, not necessarily fake. Like I said earlier though, if you think his post sounded fake, then fine.

[ting =)]

Sorry for the long no post, I just read the past few pages.

I don't buy ortolan's and qwints votes on Jebus. I don't like zwet's either. DGB's vote on Jebus is the only one that seems to have an actual reason behind it, but I don't buy it. If Jebus is being bussed, then he won't be God. Besides, the cult leaders don't know each other. God doesn't know the recruits either. And I'm assuming that the recruits don't know God. Whatever his role, him being bussed can't be right.

Pacman still hasn't said anything. I don't like qwints' unvote. It seems like you're pulling out since the Jebus wagon has no steam.

I'll reread and pick someone to vote tomorrow.

[ting =)]

You don't like my vote, but you don't like my unvote? That makes a lot of sense.

Zomg. All this spinning is making me dizzy.

I don't like your vote because you just hopped on.

This

unvote, vote Jebus

I don't like your unvote because you just hopped off.

Thorough posts are not scummy. unvote

[ting =)]

Wow, that's four people whose votes on Jebus you "don't buy", and you haven't really argued why.

You sure he's not your leader/deity? You've just said why you don't think he's being bused, that's all well and good, I myself said God wouldn't be bused.

But you just ignore the possibility he is being voted for by agnostics?

Four people: ortolan, qwints, zwet, dgb.

Ortolan, qwints, zwet - I mentioned this before already. All your reasons are essentially that you don't like the way he reacted to zwet's 'I'm god' claim. Your case is essentially a variation of the too townie fallacy. I've said already why I don't buy it. There wasn't any point in me repeating it in that post, hence why I only mentioned why I don't buy DGBs reason in that post.

I ignored that how? I mentioned that I don't like your votes (I don't think they're good reasons for voting), not that I thought you were scummy for it. There's a difference. I haven't called any of the people on his wagon scum, all I've done is said that I don't like the wagon. Care to show me where I ignore that you could be agnostics?

[ting =)]

People not on the spotlight but maybe should be:

Lurkies:

Sir Tornado.

He only has one post, a random vote.

MOD: prod please?

Indigo Heron.

Has said nearly nothing. His only post with substance pretty much just touched the surface of everything without commiting to a case on anyone. Has not bothered to vote. Might have a computer problem, which might explain his lack of participation.

Double A.

The two times he's voted, he's hopped on the person under the most suspicion. Both times without bothering to explain his vote.

Plus, my vote kinda was a joke, I was just bored. so UNVOTE: ZACHARI until I get a better reason to vote.

I've considered the evidence and have concluded that Jebus has the highest chance of either being god, or his kid (because of his name). So, vote: Jebus

I particularly don't like this post:

Anyway... either

Jebus or Zakerai

is going to be our

scapegoat

. More than likely

one if not both of them are agnostic.

I don't like the implication of 'scapegoat.' Or that he's fine with the fact that he voted two people who he feels are likely agnostics. I'm under sedatives now. I'll decide tomorrow, but I'm leaning more on him being VI than poorly playing scum.

------

Other people:

Qwints.

Uber vote hoppy. His vote posts:

Well, this one is easy.

vote: Jebus

Good point Jahudo. Why the vote for DGB zakeri?

vote: zakeri

You claim scum, I vote you.

unvote; vote: zwetschenwasser

This

unvote, vote Jebus

Thorough posts are not scummy.

unvote

He only has two posts that have no vote/unvote in them. Neither of them bother to explain his votes. All his votes are just hopping on easy targets. Three of them on someone's tails. He's not bothering to hunt, just hopping along with his vote.

Erratus Apathos.

Hands up if you can remember his position on anyone. Other than zakeri anyway. Really weak reason for voting zakeri:

That's two seedy players who've both defended Zakeri. That suggests they're cult and he's God. Unvote Vote: Zakeri

The only thing I remember of him before reading back is that he popped in every once in a while to make the occasional short post calling for a zakeri lynch. Other posts: 1 random vote. 1 post that is mostly theory related. One post FOSing people for voting zwet after he claimed CL. One post saying why we shouldn't vote zwet. He's not doing any active scumhunting. He hasn't added anything to his zakeri vote. Active lurker.

Pacman.

Not hunting. Has a random vote, that's it. Hasn't bothered to commit to a case on anyone. Unhelpful and lurky.

Zachattack.

No active scumhunting. 5/13 posts are theory. Has been pretty much complacent with his zakeri vote after he followed jahudo on it. The only thing he added to it was his point about how people seem to be trying to take heat off Zakeri, which I don't buy for reasons I've already said before.

-----

I'm too tired to read up on the others right now. I was going to read up tajo, jahudo, ortolan, X and zwet because I can't remember their stand on anything. I know tajo hasn't posted in a while. Jahudo posts, but I can't seem to remember his position on anyone other than that he has his vote on zakeri. I can't remember what ortolan did early game, I know that he's pushing for jebus now, but I'm blank on how he reacted to the zakeri-jebus-mask thing early on. I'm relatively blank on X's stands, I'll have to reread him too. Zwet I don't like much, but posts often enough that I know where he stands on things. I have to reread him to decide whether my dislike is because of the way he's playing or because I think he's scum. I'll post again when I find the time to bother reading.

The others either don't stick out or I like. Or I forgot to mention them in the paragraph up there.

[ting =)]

@mask.
I have the same number of posts than you. I have a higher word count.

I'm suddenly busier than I expected to be. Post soon-ish.

[ting =)]

Meh. All the new posts are theory posts. I don't really have anything much to add. So I'll just throw a vote.

Unvote. Vote:Erratus Apathos.

You could try saying why. Or actually looking at others and saying why you don't think they're God. Either'd be much better than just popping in to say 'Zak is god' every few days.

[ting =)]

@EA.
Really? Two seedy players defended zakeri and so zakeri's God? And DGB defending zakeri after 'being much scummier' also makes zakeri god? That's not particularly convincing. Tell me why the zakeri case is better than the other cases currently in the limelight.

(Happy scumday btw.)

@DGB.
I've been wondering - Your case on pac is mainly that he's active lurky and 'epically useless'(no scumhunting, etc), right? (if you feel this is an oversimplification, feel free to tell me the rest)

1. There are a number of other players who'd fit this bill. (e.g. Double A) So - why pacman in particular?
2. Am I to take it that you'd expect God to play this way?

I ask because while I feel pacman would fit a general scum profile, I wouldn't be as convinced as you are based on what we have now.

[ting =)]

I still haven't seen anything I like from Double A.

Jahudo, who's your second pick behind zakeri?

[ting =)]

Jahudo, who's your

second pick

behind zakeri?

I mentioned a

pool of suspects

here: here.

Can I assume from your pac vote that he's your second pick?

@DGB.
post 506.

[ting =)]

@DGB.
I've been wondering - Your case on pac is mainly that he's active lurky and 'epically useless'(no scumhunting, etc), right? (if you feel this is an oversimplification, feel free to tell me the rest)

1. There are a number of other players who'd fit this bill. (e.g. Double A) So - why pacman in particular?
2. Am I to take it that you'd expect God to play this way?

I ask because while I feel pacman would fit a general scum profile, I wouldn't be as convinced as you are based on what we have now.

[ting =)]

@zwet.
Double was an example.

@dgb.
You know, that doesn't answer my questions at all. Today might be our only chance to lynch God before leaving things to nietzsche. We can't just go after someone for no reason other than he's a lurker.

[ting =)]

@zwet.
The whole thing. The fact that you guys keep saying that makes it a pointless tell.

[ting =)]

Status on populartajo & ting?

I'm around now.

Sure sucks ass to be the christian recruit.

If we believe qwints, he had none. He targetted Jebus and failed.

---

Jahudo seems to have looked at which people qwints was looking at already. I'll go look up which people didn't want qwints dead later. I can't picture God as bussing one of his CLs, considering that they're his ticket to unlynchability.

[ting =)]

I can't picture God as bussing one of his CLs,

Clarification, since I just realized the vagueness of that statement: I can't see God as either starting the wagon, or pushing it. I could picture God hopping on it.

[ting =)]

on the qwints wagon:

bloodmoney

- mentioned others more than he did qwints, although he did call qwints the best lynch and did make several posts pushing for a qwints lynch. Not a hopper.

jebus

- hopped on the qwints wagon at the very end of his post 23, which was his zwet response post. He doesn't mention qwints at all after this until his 47th post, which was just:

And for Pacman, Zwet, and EA - what do you think of qwints right now?

He makes similar posts on his 51st and 53rd posts.
Qwints again on his 59th post:

Qwints does have a case on him. I'll repost this once I get a good chunk of time.

He never does.

In fact, he's never made an independent case on qwints. I wouldn't call him hopping on the wagon since he was one of the first on it, but he never drove the wagon, just rode on it.

zwet

:
This was zwet on

Feb 18

:

I don't see the case on quintz

or ortolan. Jebus is God, Bloodmoney is Islam, and Pacman is Christian. See?

This was zwet on

Feb 19

!!! Can you say wishy-washiness please the town? Unvote;

Vote: quints

Wow. One day to go from not seeing a case to being willing to vote. Hopped on the wagon.

silverphoenix

:
One of the few on the qwints wagon who made a semblance of a case. He wasn't one of the stronger pushers, but he doesn't read like he hopped on the wagon.

dgb

:Only two posts mention qwints, and neither of them is a case on qwints.

unvote, vote: qwints

WIFOM I know, but who would recruit qwints? He's only useful getting himself lynched for non-contribution.

vote: qwints

Hop.

pacman:

Hop.

mm... well, there is no time, going on nolynch would just give cult leaders extra time to recruit, so I will unvote, vote: qwints.

X:

This post struck out:

Why is everyone backing off of qwints? Claiming Recruit is a smart choice for God or a CL. At best we've won. At worst we didn't get rid of an Agnostic.

Unvote: Double A. Vote: qwints.

This came after a number of unvotes on qwints. X wasn't dettered. Not hop.

xofelf

: Hop.

Looking at how much time is left and knowing everything i have to do this weekend, i highly doubt i'm going to be able to get another post in before deadline. And a no-lynch would be really bad, i see this as my only alternative really, as much as i hate jumping on wagons. Vote quints

ortolan:

His vote post was clearly a hop:

The first case is a fine outcome. The second is bad for every one of us (agnostics) who doesn't get recruited tonight. However I can't argue with the logic, claiming cult membership would be a logical move for a reasonably intelligent cult leader or God. Fuckit.

Unvote
Vote: qwints

Out of all the people who just hopped though, he clearly tried to push the case - but not till after qwints' CL claim. Obviously, agnostics have a lot of reason to want to kill a CL, but I could see him as a rival CL. The fact that his vote was last minute (L-1, and less than 24 hours from lynch) also makes me think he could be God who realized there was no way to save his CL already. Of course; with deadline approaching, I could also see a possibility of agnostic who just didn't want a no lynch, but I don't think so.

Jahudo:

Easily one of the stronger pushers for the qwints wagon. I don't like that he hopped off after qwints claimed recruit though.

Mykonian:

Hop.

I think I support lurking-qwints-scum theory. unvote vote qwints

I also don't like how he unvoted when qwints claimed recruit.

Short version: People who were on the qwints wagon that I like - Jahudo, X, SP, Blood. The rest seem like they just hopped on.

---
Off the qwints wagon:

al:

He made no case on qwints, or anything, at all, but -

Yay! HAMMAH!

and just in case,
Unvote
Vote: Qwints

I don't like this because:

1. He yayed for the hammer of someone he never mentioned suspicion of.
2. He wanted to be the hammer.

Don't like.

zakeri:

Only mention of qwints is:

Qwints: Opportunistic

Maskman:

No qwints mention.

Indigo:

He had qwints pegged as an active lurker and voted him - but only when asked by Jebus about qwints. He never mentions qwints at all before that. I don't like how he unvoted qwints after qwints claimed recruit.

Tajo:

No qwints mention.

---

I think god won't be among the qwints pushers. He'll be among the hoppers. I'm not sure about the people who don't mention qwints. I have a feeling god would have said something about qwints, and that qwints would have mentioned God at least at some point. I have no basis for this, I just feel God would say something in the event that one of his CLs gets strung up and lynched. Anyway, I'll decide which person to cast my vote to tomorrow after I get some sleep.

[ting =)]

I'm sorry, but I've just finished catching up to a bunch of other games, and it's pretty late here already. Post tomorrow.