726 - Mind Screw Gaiden, Game Over

[hp [leaves]]

For one, he seems kinda unsure of where he's trying to argue (tajo, then kai, then SSK, all randomly in one post). It seems like he's either eager town overextending himself, or scum unsure where the blows will hit best. For now, the former seems more likely, but I am definitely a bit put off by the way he's been arguing.

This is a weird argument as he also does it in his post.

Seeing as you asked, though, I would say my pick for scum would have to be between you and hp[leaves]. I call bull on the mysterious "Oh yeah, I missed that note."

However, I have to pick you because I think it'd be more likely that hp

was

G-man than that the scum wouldn't receive the note, and he was scum. Not saying I have any strong belief he

is

G-man (Tar's logic on the mod being G-man makes a lot of sense, honestly, and I think has been surprisingly ignored so far) just that it seems more logical than scum, considering the note situation.

So there, Illum you're my top scum pick so far, though not enough to justify a lynch at all yet.

I do not understand your argument about me, could you elaborate it?

snip

So, do you think he's a blind follower or something like that?


I'd also like to

Vote Isaac

as he's the one who I find most suspicious.

[forbiddanlight]

Can I step in with what I think a role based off Nat from Real Life would be? It would be a Serial Killer, almost certainly.

[Isacc]

Also, Isacc, let's get something straight. In your 276, you
1) found it unlikely that hp suddenly remembered he had the note
2) didn't consider it very likely that hp was scum and didn't have the note
3) didn't have a strong belief hp was the gman
Given this, I wasn't sure if you had noted hp's post, and wanted to point it out since you had just replaced in. At any rate, that post shows that he probably has the note now (via scumbuddy, by virtue of starting with it, aliens, etc.). Explain how pointing out a relevant fact counts as defending him -- He has proven his note knowledge, unless you think he's bluffing. You didn't take that into account, so I thought you had missed it.

Illum, your responses regarding HP have made me feel less like you are defending, as they seem well reasoned. When I read your original post that incited this, I read it as you thinking he had the note from the start, not just getting info from others, which is where it seemed like you were stretching a defense.

That said, having noted the name post, which I had slightly overlooked, my theory about whether or not he is scum or G-man had shifted. My original thought process was he may have just jumped on and said "Yeah, I see it!" which is why it was a bit more likely G-man than scum. However, knowing the name would imply he had someone actually give him the information, ergo scum. Anyways, that should explain the three points you brought up.

In related news, your defense of yourself is seeming more town in my eyes. Your most recent post has been a big improvement on your past ones. I think you'll be happy to know that you've dropped below HP on my scum list.


Speaking of HP,

now

we can talk about opportunistic.

Hp, your comment about my "weird argument" is a twist of words. You're trying to put an accusation of hypocrisy on me, which is bull. I was specifically asked three questions, which I answered.

I do not understand your argument about me, could you elaborate it?

You didn't receive a note that the town members received. Then you suddenly claim, "Oh yeah, I missed that..." I claim bull; you probably received info on the note after the fact. Now, what part of this confuses you?

I'd also like to Vote Isaac as he's the one who I find most suspicious.

So basically, you see this: "Hey, this guy is new and attacked me. Oh, and Tar is a pretty strong player and is after this, I'll jump on his bandwagon!" Yeah, not gonna work.

I've had enough of your buddying up to whatever protects you. You're quite obviously jumping on whatever idea you think won't get you attacked. That plus your lack of the note has me pretty convinced at this point.

Vote: Hp [leaves]

[forbiddanlight]

Would it? I'm not so sure...

Someone who claims SK in the first post of every game would NOT pass on an opportunity to actually be one whether it's him himself or a role in his game.

[Natirasha]

Can I step in with what I think a role based off Nat from Real Life would be? It would be a Serial Killer, almost certainly.

Have you looked at my wiki?

Rules Infraction!

[veerus]

veerus - Again, a player with shorter posts than normal, and IIRC I laid a case out against him earlier. Expect more on this front when I actually have sleep.

Your case is that I slipped up by assuming that mafia has safeclaims. Since the assumption is reasonable given past MS games, your case, to me, is ridiculous and inane.

[veerus]

I'd also like to

Vote Isaac

as he's the one who I find most suspicious.

Suspicious how?

Someone who claims SK in the first post of every game would NOT pass on an opportunity to actually be one whether it's him himself or a role in his game.

Welcome to WIFOM City, population you.

[Vi]

Can I step in with what I think a role based off Nat from Real Life would be? It would be a Serial Killer, almost certainly.

Have you looked at my wiki?

Rules Infraction!

I dunno, Natirasha seems like the leader of the Cult of Natirasha~

-----

*lays out Tarhalindur bait in this space*

-----

At any rate, that post shows that he probably has the note now (via scumbuddy, by virtue of starting with it, aliens, etc.).

Knows what note says =/= has the note

-----

f-light, no content, setup speculation only, FINAL DESTINATION, etc.

-----

I need to look into veerus and Isacc later; I have to go to class.

[MafiaSSK]

Can I step in with what I think a role based off Nat from Real Life would be? It would be a Serial Killer, almost certainly.

Have you looked at my wiki?

Rules Infraction!

I dunno, Natirasha seems like the leader of the Cult of Natirasha~

How come?

[Vi]

Can I step in with what I think a role based off Nat from Real Life would be? It would be a Serial Killer, almost certainly.

Have you looked at my wiki?

Rules Infraction!

I dunno, Natirasha seems like the leader of the Cult of Natirasha~

How come?

Two words: Ego Trip.
(On that note, Turkmenbashi Mafia may be kind of funny with a modified Intentionally Vague setup.)

Do you still like your vote on Natirasha, SSK? Or is there someone who signed up to play that's piqued your interest?

[hp [leaves]]

Speaking of HP,

now

we can talk about opportunistic.

Hp, your comment about my "weird argument" is a twist of words. You're trying to put an accusation of hypocrisy on me, which is bull. I was specifically asked three questions, which I answered.

You still did what Vi did. And on your post's first paragraph, you mentioned you didn't like what Vi did.

I do not understand your argument about me, could you elaborate it?

You didn't receive a note that the town members received. Then you suddenly claim, "Oh yeah, I missed that..." I claim bull; you probably received info on the note after the fact. Now, what part of this confuses you?

The common idea is if the player didn't receive the note, they are non-town. You did not think I'm scum. You did not think I was G-Man. What did you think about my alignment?

I'd also like to Vote Isaac as he's the one who I find most suspicious.

So basically, you see this: "Hey, this guy is new and attacked me. Oh, and Tar is a pretty strong player and is after this, I'll jump on his bandwagon!" Yeah, not gonna work.

I've had enough of your buddying up to whatever protects you. You're quite obviously jumping on whatever idea you think won't get you attacked. That plus your lack of the note has me pretty convinced at this point.

Vote: Hp [leaves]

Thanks for the OMGUS? Did I buddy up Tajo? Doesn't Tar still think I'm scummy?

I feel you're jumping on the wagon with a moot reason. (A little bit late, though)

[Kairyuu]

Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry Sorry.

I didn't finish all of my crap until 4am, and now I'm gonna be at a friend's house until tomorrow night.

Expect a post no later than tomorrow.

[Isacc]

What a load of crap.

You still did what Vi did. And on your post's first paragraph, you mentioned you didn't like what Vi did.

No, I didn't. Stop trying to twist words.

The common idea is if the player didn't receive the note, they are non-town. You did not think I'm scum. You did not think I was G-Man. What did you think about my alignment?

Did I say I didn't think you were scum? I specifically said that based on the note situation, one event was more likely than another, in terms of logical probability.

What did I think? I thought you were possibly either scum or G-man, due to the note issue, but that there wasn't enough strong tell towards them yet. Of course, now that the name issue has been brought up by Illumina, any suspicions I had of you being G-man are gone and so the logical conclusion is scum.

Thanks for the OMGUS? Did I buddy up Tajo? Doesn't Tar still think I'm scummy?

I feel you're jumping on the wagon with a moot reason. (A little bit late, though)

I knew you'd try to call OMGUS. Tell me this, if it was OMGUS, why not Tar? He's the one who started the bandwagon. So, why? Because it wasn't OMGUS. I think Tar's vote on me is do to a misunderstanding of my style early in the game. You on the other hand are BANDWAGONING, because you found me "the most suspicious."

Buddying up to Tajo? What does that have to do with anything?

I'll reiterate that question for your comment about Tar finding you scummy. I don't see how that changes anything.

And, I'm jumping on a wagon? Haha, hilarious. I hear you saying, "Hey, don't bring up the bad things I have done in the past, I was just starting to get by unnoticed again!"

[Isacc]

Alright, going to work, then LAN party tomorrow. Will be back Sunday.

[Tarhalindur]

Can I step in with what I think a role based off Nat from Real Life would be? It would be a Serial Killer, almost certainly.

Have you looked at my wiki?

Rules Infraction!

I dunno, Natirasha seems like the leader of the Cult of Natirasha~

-----

*lays out Tarhalindur bait in this space*

-----

At any rate, that post shows that he probably has the note now (via scumbuddy, by virtue of starting with it, aliens, etc.).

Knows what note says =/= has the note

-----

f-light, no content, setup speculation only, FINAL DESTINATION, etc.

-----

I need to look into veerus and Isacc later; I have to go to class.

Tarhalindur bait noted, eaten (to be followed by dinner), larger post coming in a couple of hours.

Quick notes (since it takes ~10 seconds): I wouldn't affix any defined alignment to a Natirasha (or Tarhalindur) role - Tarhalindur (from Real Life) has been both town and SK in my Mind Screw games.

Unvote

- Isacc's response to my questioning is blatantly pro-town (note the self-righteousness). I'll explain more in a bit.

[MafiaSSK]

Can I step in with what I think a role based off Nat from Real Life would be? It would be a Serial Killer, almost certainly.

Have you looked at my wiki?

Rules Infraction!

I dunno, Natirasha seems like the leader of the Cult of Natirasha~

How come?

Two words: Ego Trip.
(On that note, Turkmenbashi Mafia may be kind of funny with a modified Intentionally Vague setup.)

Do you still like your vote on Natirasha, SSK? Or is there someone who signed up to play that's piqued your interest?

Yeah. I still think Natirasha should be lynched.

[forbiddanlight]

f-light, no content, setup speculation only, FINAL DESTINATION, etc.

Yeah, usually tends to be this way in MS gamess for the first pages/day. When I get my good compy back and can do cool stuff like more than one process at once I'll try to poke more life into my game here. (Course, not sure when I'll be able to fix it. Having OS troubles and Ubuntu is being real annoying)

[Natirasha]

"I wanna be the guy!"

Tick tock. Tick tock.

[quote="The Thirteenth Vote Count(aka the "The Apples Fall Up" Vote Count)"]Vote Count
Natirasha(3): forbiddanlight, Malthusis, MafiaSSK
forbiddanlight(1): Vi
hp [leaves](1): veerus
illumina(2): Kairyuu
Kairyuu(1): Illumina
Kinetic(0):
MafiaSSK(0):
populartajo(1): Kinetic
Isacc(1): hp [leaves]
Tarhalindur(0):
veerus(1): populartajo
Vi (0):
Battle Mage(0):

FoS Count
Natirasha(1): forbiddanlight
forbiddanlight(0):
hp [leaves](0):
illumina(2): Kairyuu, Tarhalindur
Kairyuu(1): hp [leaves]
Kinetic(0):
MafiaSSK(1): MafiaSSK
populartajo(3): veerus, Kinetic, Malthusis
Isacc(1): Illumina
Tarhalindur(0):
veerus(0):
Vi (0):
fluffy bunnies(0):
Floofy bunnies(1): MafiaSSK
lol I am arguing with myself(0):
Poofy Bunnies with Big Floppy Ears(1): Vi[/quote]

[Kairyuu]

Starting the catch up post now. It will hopefully be up soon.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

In answer to your question, I wanted the debate dropped because it seemed frivolous at the beginning, and I've seen town get distracted and derailed by such long, sustained arguments before, to their detriment.

Very well. If you wouldn't mind providing example games then they would be quite helpful. I'd like to reference Mini Normal 682: C9++ in two different examples of the style working. My argument with Artem early on set the roleblocker on his trail which got Artem caught as scum when the kill was prevented N1. Also, sekinj's positions put much of the town on her case D2 because of it (me an mykonian, masons, ended up accidentally preventing us from catching her until I had already broken the game and gotten NKed). The second argument I had in that game was with Sheherazade, and Scigatt/Natirasha's position on that case netted another scum.

I can certainly see you're not planning to stop, so I will continue.

YAYZ!

That said, I can't decide if you're opportunistic scum who's latched on like a piranha, or really zealous town, and its bothering me.

Hahahahahaha! I'd assure you that I'm town, but that probably wouldn't help. By all means, if you think I'm scum, then build a legit case against me and push for my lynch.

If there's another relevant question I'm missing, please ask it again.

Somewhat relevant: Your gender. I would like to know it so I can stop referring to you as a him/her.

This is probably outdated in the 6 pages since this post, but I would like to know where you stand on hp [leaves] with the note issue, Nat with the Jesus claim, and Tar's claim. If you answered any of those after the post I am quoting, then just assume I saw your response unless I mention otherwise. If you took stands before the post I am quoting, then please point them out to me, since I must have missed them.

@all: OK. I will need to reread the last few pages a few times to get some decent comments together, since quite a bit has been going on. I should probably be able to get that up after work tomorrow (This is not extending my V/LA, I am officially back from that to the point that I was at before RL fell on me).

@Kinetic: I'm curious as to your case against me, and how I would be paired with tajo given that all of your links are between tajo and hp [leaves] and none of them are between him and I. Please elaborate. I'm curious to know your reasoning.

Also, I think I know what you are talking about with the information you can't share which would push your read one way or the other.

[Natirasha]

Bump

[Kairyuu]

Alright. Lets begin with a list.

Kairyuu:

I obviously know myself to be town, but I think that an outside viewpoint may be iffy on me based on the extended V/LA and the arguments with Illumina.

forbiddanlight:

I have barely any read on her. Nothing overly scummy, nothing overly townie. I am biased towards believing her about growing apathetic about this game, since I ended up doing that in a different game I was in for low activity reasons as well.

hp [leaves]:

I think that the note issue as well as the unprompted defense of him by Illumina paints him in a very scummy light. I would be happy with his lynch.

Illumina:

I've laid out my many reasons why I think he/she is scum. The recent defense of hp [leaves] right out of the blue is scummy as heck to me. There is no valid reason that I can think of other than masonship, which is nowhere close to guaranteed in a mind screw game, that he/she should be defending another player D1. Plus some more misrep that I will get to later.

Kinetic:

Another one I have nothing really to comment on. I'm curious to the extreme about how neutral he is on Illumina (take a side so I can update my notes already). Also, I still want to know why he seems to think I am scum.

MafiaSSK:

I asked him to try to contribute more, but he has not listened. I therefore have no information at all on him outside of small tidbits that remind me strongly of Empking's playstyle.

tajo:

The incident earlier makes him look somewhat scummy to me, but not at the top of my list or in danger of getting there anytime soon.

malthusis:

I didn't even realize that he was playing in this game until I saw Illumina address him about something. He needs to post more content.

Isacc:

Not a bad start. I find the position on Illumina to be strange (He attacks him/her and then when he/she decides to completely misrepresent our argument Isacc retracts most of the suspicion).

Tarhalindur:

Probably the strongest town read I have now that the information about the note is out in the open. Good ideas, and strong town play in my opinion.

veerus: There are a surprising number of people I have no read on in this game. He is one of them. People need to post more solid content.

Vi: Confuses the hell out of me. Flips straight from commenting on Illumina's scumminess to saying that I am the one who is scum within a few posts. Follows that with a refusal (with perfectly acceptable reasons) to elaborate on why I am scummy. I would still like an explanation, in small parts if necessary.

Natirasha: Is apparently a player in this game. Probably G-Man. Apparently Tar thinks he is metal, and Nat is claiming that there is no mycosinth pit in this game. Nat is also claiming to be town. If Nat is metal and is telling the truth about the pit, then he must be telling the truth about being town as well. Otherwise, we would be dealing with an anti-town player that is invincible, and I doubt even Nat would be that evil.

Therefore, I think Illumina is the most likely scum, but I think that Nat may be the best lynch information-wise.

unvote

and

vote: Natirasha

[hp [leaves]]

Thanks for the OMGUS? Did I buddy up Tajo? Doesn't Tar still think I'm scummy?

I feel you're jumping on the wagon with a moot reason. (A little bit late, though)

I knew you'd try to call OMGUS. Tell me this, if it was OMGUS, why not Tar? He's the one who started the bandwagon. So, why? Because it wasn't OMGUS. I think Tar's vote on me is do to a misunderstanding of my style early in the game. You on the other hand are BANDWAGONING, because you found me "the most suspicious."

Because I'm scummy and easy to piled votes on? Tar hasn't done much scummy things so OMGUS'ing him would be a suicide.

Buddying up to Tajo? What does that have to do with anything?

You know, tajo kinda protected me and since I buddy up anyone who protects me; I should've buddied him up. But I didn't.

And, I'm jumping on a wagon? Haha, hilarious. I hear you saying, "Hey, don't bring up the bad things I have done in the past, I was just starting to get by unnoticed again!"

The only bad thing I did was overlook the note iirc.

Replied in bold.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

Starting in his 114, he tries to box me in using his logic that reading his post any other way is impossible.

Show that I am trying to box you in. I see it as you boxing yourself in, and I have provided reasons. Your turn. Point, counterpoint.

Kairyuu didn't want to do this, citing that my reactions were helpful and allowed the town to take sides. Sounds reasonable, except that we weren't generating any new content to take sides over, just locking horns over the original issue.

Except that the argument arising over this very thing generated more content which hasn't been covered by you yet (I'll go look for it when I finish this post).

I still feel that Kairyuu's focus on that one thing is unhelpful, and probably helped generate the low activity we're having now (something I've seen happen before, and wanted to avoid).

I think that this point suffers from false premises. Large argument ---> low activity level is incorrect. Lazy/ apathetic players + rampant V/LA ---> low activity level is quite a bit more likely.

The only thing I've conceded is that Kairyuu's argument was tiresome, and unhelpful because it was an overreaction to something trivial (ie, my misreading his post, then correcting myself).

The original point was a small matter. However, it did not stay limited to that for long. I elaborated on my case in most of my posts against you, and the "beating a dead horse" was limited to continuing to argue that point in each of my new, expanded posts.

For most of the game, Kairyuu's argument was, "It's impossible that you could have misread my post. Now stop evading and try to convince me you misread my post." What other reasoning is there, besides the truth that I misread his post? Naturally, any response I made got interpreted as "being trapped in my own argument".

This is a continuation of the misrep and strawman argument. My case did not even come close to being limited to that single point. The point is a small part of the most recent case I made.

[Natirasha]

Bah, fine.

I am a Beloved Princess and Supersaint.

Still want to lynch me?