Martyr Mafia - Game Over

[populartajo]

I think you should read the rules in page 1 to find more answers and in case another question comes up.
I think that we are not facing conventional cults.

[ting =)]

1. If a cult leader is killed off, what happens to the cult (and all its members)?

The cult members lose when the game ends, unless they get recruited.

2. Can a cult leader turn an enemy cultist? If he/she can't, then can he/she turn an enemy cultist after the enemy cultist's leader is killed?

No. Yes.

Okay, I have free time. I'll catch up and post something within the hour.

[ting =)]

Zakeri:
The whole Jebus-outing-Nietzche thing.
Random vote on DGB.
Wishes could vote for both DGB and Zwet. post 7.

---
My only beef with Zakeri was with her random vote. I didn't read anything scummy into the Jebus thing. I think I'm satisfied with Zakeri's explanation on her random vote, so I don't really have any beef with him anymore.

Just one question though: You haven't removed your unvote of DGB. In light of your 7th post, do you intend to leave it on DGB? If yes, could you elaborate why?

********

@tajo.
I've more than given my reasoning for my mykonian suspicion before. Do you disagree with any of it? How was I heavyhanded? If I recall, I was the one who actually decided the end the argument instead of continue pushing it.

On hindsight though, I'm just going to chalk it up to myko having a different playstyle than mine and reacting differently than what I'd expect. What I'd interpret as him not wanting to endanger anyone might just be him being naturally cautious.

********

I side with silver phoenix in the whole jahudo-jebus/maskman thing.

********

Bloodmoney-zach seems like much ado about nothing. It started with bloodmoney calling zach lazy and then evolved into a shouting match. I don't think it says anything about either of their alignments. I don't like how SP made an issue of it though. I like less how Blood started calling SP and zach buddies for it, but I think all of this is just mountains out of molehills.

********

Re: People looking like they're trying to take heat out of Zakeri.

Really? Did you guys expect anything other than multiple people coming into suspicion in a mafia game? More than one person looking suspicious in a game is normal, it doesn't mean they're trying to cover for each other. I can understand the focus on zwet since his 'claim' was deliberate, but I think saying that maskman(and others I may have forgotten) is trying to distract from Zakeri is just reading too much into it.

********

Blood calling SP cult in post 177 seems omgus-y. You originally called him cult for his alleged connection to zach. You wtihdrew your attack on zach. Why are you still calling him cult if you don't think zach is anymore?

********

@tajo's 185, 188.

That's a horrible reason to think zwet is an obv agnostic. He's playing badly, so he's obviously a good guy? How is that not circular logic?

********

@Double-A, Indigo:

Based on the ten pages so far, what are your thoughts of everyone? I'm not asking for a summary of thoughts on every player, just people who you think stick out and why.

********

Vote: Sir Tornado.

Lurky. Any thoughts on the game?

Mod: Prod please?

[mykonian]

I don't understand how post 181 by bloodmoney should give any information who is what allignment. He tries to find reasons for an attack, but comes mostly with null-tells. I don't like it.

unvote vote bloodmoney

I see that the too scummy fallacy is used on zwet. I know it is wrong to think that way, but I must say that I feel the same way.

[Bloodmoney]

First off, lay off the newbie when all he committed was an opportunistic vote. That much leniency doesn't cost the town a thing.

Double A and Indigo, please make a brief analysis of the last ten pages. With sugar on top and a vote to boot. Unlike ting I endorse specific points on every player.

DGB is indeed looking to be scum. props to pops. I'd like her to stop pushing a rival cult and tell us who her god is plz thx.

I think that Double A is acting the way he is because of his play style. Granted, if it is, it's extremely unorthodox, but it's a play style nonetheless.

What in Double A's play implies "playstyle" here? And why use the word "playstyle" so much? Looking at his posts on-site, what gives you the feeling that he isn't, in fact, a complete newbie but rather someone who has a developed playstyle?

If I may say so, you're making a big show of jumping to Double A's aid.

Blood calling SP cult in post 177 seems omgus-y. You originally called him cult for his alleged connection to zach. You wtihdrew your attack on zach. Why are you still calling him cult if you don't think zach is anymore?

I never withdrew my attack on zach. His initial laziness is still bugging me, because a vote like that might, in better places, be interpreted as opportunistic. And if a connection is implicated from one side why are you implying that I should only suspect one half of the implied pair?

I don't understand how post 181 by bloodmoney should give any information who is what allignment. He tries to find reasons for an attack, but comes mostly with null-tells. I don't like it.

unvote vote bloodmoney

I see that the too scummy fallacy is used on zwet. I know it is wrong to think that way, but I must say that I feel the same way.

Do elaborate on these nulltells, because I smell bullshit. Do you perhaps have a problem with the fact that I'm pressuring people, or just specific people? If the latter, I'd like a list of who you don't want me pressuring.

[mykonian]

I'm talking about his actual vote on Zakeri (which actually isn't the first person to vote Zakeri by simply agreeing with Jahudo).

His vote needs justification, preferably. And protip: saying "others did it too, why zach"

only further

proves your connection.

For a completely simple statement that is true, you try to make it prove that SP is linked to that person. A towny could make that statement quite normally, so nothing weird here.

2) Why would it be a bad idea to ask who someone's suspects are if they say they have suspects? Please explain this to me.

And this confirms that it really has nothing to do with the Zakeri case. Jebus simply wanted to know Zakeri's suspects (even if they were tied to the case against him).

Deflecting off Zakeri. Zakeri is a possible God; hell, she's the top nominee for that.

and because of your perception that Zakeri is god, SP must be scum? Brilliant. Again a quite normal statement, that any player, scum or town can make, and you manage to twist it into a scumtell.

[Indigo Heron]

First off, lay off the newbie when all he committed was an opportunistic vote. That much leniency doesn't cost the town a thing.

If I may say so, that is an even bigger show of jumping to Double A's aid. In fact, it almost makes you seem desperate to take some heat of yourself, after reading mykonian's statement.

One of the players that I'd like to remark is Jebus, for seemingly going back on his words in post #67. Him pointing out mask man's post didn't ring any alarm bells in my head (seemed like a normal thing to do, really). I also think that him voting for Zakeri was a little to easy; his vote was supported by someone else's argument. Not to mention that his and populartajo's votes were the last two, and given the nature of both votes, should be seen as opportunistic. OMGUS wasn't a very convincing reason to tack a vote on someone. Also, he didn't answer zachattack's question as to why he waited till the last minute to cast an OMGUS vote.

I am suspicious of Zakeri as well. His serious vote that was changed to a random vote was a red flag for me.

About zwetschenwasser...I'm still at a blur over what happened. He (sarcastically or not) claimed cult leader. He probably is someone who has been culted, and his leader is one of those who are closest to being lynched.

Bloodmoney...taking things a little too personal with zachattack?

FoS: DGB, qwints, Jebus, ting, bloodmoney

We're looking for God, not the Islamic CL. I guarantee there is more than one Christian/Jew voting for zwet.

QFT.

There are valuable bits of information in these attacks on me, however, and I do think I can make an educated guess on the affiliation of some people.

PLZ TELL MEZ. I HAZ 2 NO HU TEH OTHER CULT PEEPS R SO I CAN HAZ LYNCHZ0R THEM

What the hell? That was totally unexpected.

[ting =)]

I never withdrew my attack on zach. His initial laziness is still bugging me, because a vote like that might, in better places, be interpreted as opportunistic. And if a connection is implicated from one side why are you implying that I should only suspect one half of the implied pair?

Ok, thank you. You

(zach)

could do that next time without me having to cuss at you.

SP is still cult though.

This gave me the impression you were no longer suspicious of Zach. Which made me wonder why you were still suspicious of SP since your suspicion of him was born of what you thought was a connection between him and Zach. Since it turns out you're still suspicious of zach after all though, I no longer have an issue with this.

[Bloodmoney]

For a completely simple statement that is true, you try to make it prove that SP is linked to that person. A towny could make that statement quite normally, so nothing weird here.

Sure. A townie may make that statement; but it is far more likely for connected players to try and point out similar tells on others as a deflection. A townie, in my admittedly not very humble opinion, would first analyse whether the initial action is scummy by itself. And the way zach did it (the "my alleged role sucks. also, what that guy said" post, remember?) was definitely sounding alarms to me not least because he was the one who posted immediately prior to me.

and because of your perception that Zakeri is god, SP must be scum? Brilliant. Again a quite normal statement, that any player, scum or town can make, and you manage to twist it into a scumtell.

That was what raised the initial minor suspicion. The bigger part of my read on him is due to him jumping all over me for a little pressure on zach. Remember, when I asked zach to give a little more material to work with and SP started yelling at me for "getting personal"?

If I may say so, that is an even bigger show of jumping to Double A's aid. In fact, it almost makes you seem desperate to take some heat of yourself, after reading mykonian's statement.

Ugh. Read the -ing thread pretty please. I am not a newbie; I never claimed to be a newbie; if I ever play a newbie card please shoot me on the spot. Therefore I don't see how this would apply to me. And yes; it is jumping to Double A's aid on a particular point; the particular point which was stupid imo. Do a background check on people sometimes, especially when they claim it's their first game. Considering Double A's posts prior to this game I don't find it unlikely at all that he has no firm grasp of the theory.

This gave me the impression you were no longer suspicious of Zach. Which made me wonder why you were still suspicious of SP since your suspicion of him was born of what you thought was a connection between him and Zach. Since it turns out you're still suspicious of zach after all though, I no longer have an issue with this.

Look, you strike me as a bright guy, so I will try not to flip out in frustration. Here's the thing.

zach did something suspicious that implicates him and only him (namely the aforementioned post). zach has not redeemed himself completely, nor will he ever. What he has done, however, is replied satisfactorily to my request, and that deserves removal of pressure for the time being since I made sure I had other leads to follow up on. So zach, by himself, has little to implicate him.

On the other hand, SP's reactions imply a connection between zach and SP. And when a connection is implied, even if only on one side, the other side deserves suspicion as well if only by association.

If I wasn't clear enough, zach isn't suspicious for what he did, he's suspicious for what SP did.

[SilverPhoenix]

If I wasn't clear enough, zach isn't suspicious for what he did, he's suspicious for what SP did.

So you are suspicious of zach now, yes? More than you were when you first brought up your accusations?

[pacman281292]

Sorry. been busy.

mm so what are we doing? does someone have a plan to play now?

[Lord Gurgi]

The Fifth "Shellfish are an abomination!" Votecount:

"I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD."
----Ezekiel 20:25-26

Bloodmoney --- 1 {mykonian}
DrippingGoofball --- 2 {Sir Tornado, Zakeri}
Erratus Apathos --- 0 {None}
Jahudo --- 0 {None}
Jebus --- 2 {SilverPhoenix, X}
mask man --- 0 {None}
mykonian --- 0 {None}
ortolan --- 0 {None}
pacman281292 --- 0 {None}
populartajo --- 0 {None}
qwints --- 0 {None}
SilverPhoenix --- 0 {None}
Sipylus --- 0 {None}
Sir Tornado --- 1 {Ting =)}
Ting =) --- 1 {ortolan}
Wickedestjr --- 1 {pacman281292}
X --- 0 {None}
zachattack --- 0 {None}
Zakeri --- 6 {populartajo, Erratus Apathos, Jahudo, zachattack, Bloodmoney, zwetschenwasser}
zwetschenwasser --- 4 {DrippingGoofball, qwints, Jebus, mask man}

Not Voting --- 2 {Indigo Heron, Double A}

Eleven votes to lynch. The deadline is on February 21st at 4:00 PM PST.

Prodding Sir Tornado.

Disclaimer: This is just flavour, anything you think you're getting from it, you're not. There's nothing here to get. Go away.

[ting =)]

@blood.
You went after zach first before you went after SP. Yes?

If I wasn't clear enough, zach isn't suspicious for what he did, he's suspicious for what SP did.

Why that then?

Also,

On the other hand, SP's reactions imply a connection between zach and SP. And when a connection is implied, even if only on one side, the other side deserves suspicion as well if only by association.

Yeah. I just said as much in my previous post. I could quote it for you if you want. Did you have a point in bringing this up?

[zwetschenwasser]

I don't like that pacman is pretending to be clueless.

[DrippingGoofball]

I don't like that pacman is pretending to be clueless.

Good catch. To me, this suggests quite strongly that he may be god. Trust me I have a nose for this. I've been playing this game long enough.

unvote, vote: pacman

[DrippingGoofball]

Just look at pacman's total contribution. Only 3 posts so far. But already, there's a pattern that is unusual for him.

That's EXACTLY what I'd expect someone to play God. WIFOM to some degree I know, but that kind of very nervous lurking in plain sight, and trying very hard to escape notice and not rock the boat.

[DrippingGoofball]

NOOO
ME MUST HAS RANDOMVOTE!

vote: Wickedestjr

because.

The game had started on the 22. It took him 3 days of stalling before showing up for a random vote. He's making sure that the first wagon won't touch him.

[DrippingGoofball]

Pacman's second post.

mm...this is weird.

Meaningless.

MOD: PROD INACTIVES

Pretending to be useful. Has noticed that some players aren't active despite his own APPARENT lack of participation.

FoS: zwetchenwasser that was stupid

Won't even vote a claimed cult leader. Only an FOS. Yet, the comment says this was STUPID. If it was just stupid, why the FOS? Stupid isn't the same as scummy. Does pacman KNOW that zwet is merely being stupid?

Questions, questions...

[DrippingGoofball]

pacman's third post:

Sorry. been busy.

Has not posted in 4 days.

mm so what are we doing? does someone have a plan to play now?

Shows willingness to entertain any plan that doesn't include lynching him.

[Jahudo]

Just look at pacman's total contribution. Only 3 posts so far. But already, there's a pattern that is unusual for him.

Actually from my experience that is pretty typical of pacman. I'm all for putting him into the spotlight until he does something though.

Still waiting for Zakeri's post.

[zwetschenwasser]

I'm holding off on prying pacman until Zakeri makes a good defense. DGB, you were hating me all this time. Pacman isn't that good a reason to start buddying up.

FoS: DGB and Pacman

[SilverPhoenix]

Just look at pacman's total contribution. Only 3 posts so far. But already, there's a pattern that is unusual for him.

That's EXACTLY what I'd expect someone to play God. WIFOM to some degree I know, but that kind of very nervous lurking in plain sight, and trying very hard to escape notice and not rock the boat.

But you also said that you expect lurkers to be cult leaders.

Mark my words.

They will lurk. They will not draw attention to themselves.

But then you tried to lambaste zwet for sarcastiscally claiming cult leader.

Reverse psychology will backfire on you.

confirm vote: zwetschenwasser

So who are the lurkers? God or Cult Leaders?

[DrippingGoofball]

I expect both CL and God to lurk and try to real hard to fit in.

zwet, however, claimed CL. And I know that there will be people saying that this can't possibly be anything but a joke. Yeah maybe. But I think behind the joke, there's a bit of release of the psychological tension of being a CL, diffused by people interpreting the claim as humor, while reverse psychology is expected to draw attention away from zwet as cult leader. I think he's a CL. I think he made a joke about being a CL. I still think he is in fact a CL.

There's one god player and several CL players. One would expect some variations in their behavior. Also, I cannot anticipate every reactions. Zwet's is a case in point.

[zachattack]

I think zwets a recruit, not a leader. I'm not worrying about him.

[mykonian]

I think we can say that someone that has claimed cult till now, can't be god. God would never wifom us that way, as it would make people look at him. He doesn't want to be in the center of the attention.

if we want to lynch god (because two lynched cult leaders could end the game a little early), we should shift our attention a bit, I think.