I believe post 224 is in and of itself an oversimplification meant to be cute. Gosh, but that was witty how you "can't make it any more simple than that" for us other not-GIEFF players. Once again, your condescending nature leaps to the fore. Furthermore, it was a gross oversimplification that disproves nothing. Quoting without actually quoting what people say
OK, how many times can I say this? I'mGIEFF wrote:Secondly, your Zilla-WIFOM post is mind-boggling. You make a lot of faulty arguments and come to a conclusion that doesn't make sense even if your arguments weren't faulty.
"if we blindly followed, it would be Bad Town play." Agreed, but that hardly is enough to argue against a B_B lynch.Dourgrim wrote:OK, see, the problem here is that we're almost forced to lynch you with this logic, if only to "prove" that Zilla is scum. However, the worst part about it is even if you do flip Town, there's a reasonable chance Zilla is also Town (because there isn't a real case against her aside from your WIFOM and Panzer's "mistrust" issue, which I obviously don't believe is solid), which means we could end up mislynching twice in a row based on a crappy WIFOM decision if we just blindly followed. Bad Town play.
You're forgetting BB's assertions that Zilla must be scum because she's pushing for a BB lynch (who insists he's Town), and I was addressing the faulty nature of his assertion. If we make the assumptions he's asking us to make in his "defense," we engage in a WIFOM. I was refuting that possibility, not endorsing it. Furthermore, as I've said numerous times recently, I doGIEFF wrote:IF B_B fips town, and IF Zilla is also town and IF the town blindly follows a town-B_B lynch with a Zilla lynch, then lynching B_B will have been a bad idea. What do you think the odds are of all three of those things being true? I put it at well below 5%.
This entire quote is senseless. Read above; I'm refuting BB's argument that Zilla is scum and explaining why I can't possibly take his and Panzer's reasoning for Zilla being scum at face value. Why is this difficult for you to understand?GIEFF wrote:This doesn't make any sense at all to me. What does scummy players suspecting Zilla have to do with a B_B lynch? Are you still talking about the nested possibility of lynching B_B, B_B coming up town, and then the town focusing in on Zilla? Why? Doesn't this seem very unlikely? Even if they are both town, why do you think we' would just blindly lynch Zilla? Because an over-emotional dead townie asked us to?Dourgrim wrote:Here's the other problem I'm seeing: it seems like many of the rest of the Town have you and Panzer at the top of their scum lists (including me), and both of you have Zilla near the top of your lists. How can the Town in good conscience follow the leads of the two scummiest-looking players in the game? Also bad Town play.
I'm not at all sure of why you think I think it is invalidated. Again, I'm just refuting BB's logic.GIEFF wrote:What does Zilla have anything to do with B_B's scumminess or his inability to defend himself? Here is your vote for B_B. Explain to me exactly which parts of this post are invalidated by B_B's Zilla-WIFOM.Dourgrim wrote:So, how do we avoid the WIFOM problem with you vs. Zilla and yet still pursue a valid lynch?
Um, I'm not. If IGIEFF wrote:As Goat and I have both said, this is NOT the reason for lynching B_B. This is NOT the reasoning you presented at the time of your B_B vote, so why are you focusing only on this now?Dourgrim wrote:Your lack of any sort of defense shouldn't it and of itself be a valid defense, and I'm kinda tempted to just push for your lynch based on that axiom itself, but I don't think that's really a good enough reason to lynch anyone.
Huh? Seriously, GIEFF, your logic is usually pretty good, but youGIEFF wrote:So in your mind, all a scum has to do to avoid a lynch is to say "well, if I come up town, be sure to lynch Player Y tomorrow?" Because that's what it looks like.Dourgrim wrote:The only thing I can think of is to go back to more solid cases that don't involve WIFOM: either my GIEFF case (which doesn't seem to have much support from the rest of the Town) or the Panzer/myko "team" theory. The catch is, if we lynch Panzer or myko, we're going to learn a LOT about the rest of the game, whereas lynching GIEFF doesn't really lead us anywhere because he's not clearly linked to anyone at this point.
I intend the word "lead" to mean "try to get the Town to follow me blindly" here. I do not want that.GIEFF wrote:Furthermore, immediately after this post, you say this:
What? You most certainly ARE trying to lead the Town. There is nothing scummy about it; if you feel a certain strategy is best for the town, of course you will try to lead the town to follow it. What IS scummy is leading the town while pretending not to, as if you are trying to distance yourself from whatever results from your actions. "Hey, that was your guys' choice, not mine."Dourgrim wrote:EBWOP: I'm not trying to lead the Town here, I'm just presenting my opinion on what I think optimal play is here. Do what you want.
Did you read post 457? Before nesting this little tidbit into the middle of an anti-Dourgrim rant, you really should have read the last paragraph of that post.GIEFF wrote:Agreed. It is a false dilemma, trying to get the town to think they must choose between one or the other: a Panzer lynch or a mykonian lynch.ting =) wrote:I don't like this. Granted, they took up most of the game, but I still don't think that we have to pick one or the other. Why not neither? Or both? I don't see a dichotomy at all.Dourgrim wrote: The decision becomes, what do we like less: GIEFF's case or mykonian's defense?
Because I want 11 other players to play with their own minds, formulate their own theories, discuss...and more importantly, IGIEFF wrote:You seem quite conscious of the need to not look like you lead the town when we look back on today after a lynch. It is also quite clear that you ARE trying to lead the town. Why do you think that leading the town is bad, if you are really so certain that Panzer is the best lynch for today?Dourgrim wrote:I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable answering this in the thread for all to see. If we were to lynch Panzer or myko, it could be later misconstrued as me trying to lead the Town, and I'm not trying to do that at all.ting =) wrote: This is interesting. If panzer flipped town, what do you think it'd say about myko and why? If he flipped scum? If myko flipped town/scum - panzer?
You're really a hardcore semantics guy, aren't you? You're nitpicking again, and you're paraphrasing, and you're forcing me to post a wall of quotes and text because you're irritating me. Stop it.