Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[Goatrevolt]

not impressed. GIEFF nitpick against his "targets", goes way too far, and then you get accusations that he is tunneling, as his behaviour against someone doesn't make sense. I think that explains the contradiction partly.

Not at all. She stated that she had GIEFF along with Dour as top townies because they were locked up on each other without stances on the rest of the game. That is a lie, because GIEFF had a strong stance on Panzer, and he had been tunneling Panzer based on that stance for pages. Zilla linked to a post that noted that.

On the other hand, to lie as scum that way makes little more sense then it does as town, isn't it?

No. She got caught with her hand in the cookie jar. She had to lie. She got called out for her change in stance on GIEFF, and as scum, she had no readily available answer for why her stance changed. She changes her stance as scum based on what she wants to accomplish. Townies, however, change their stances based on evidence suggesting players to be scum or town.

[Goatrevolt]

To make sure my point gets across clearly:

What I believe to be GIEFF's interpretation of Goat's stance: Zilla stated that GIEFF was scummy for tunneling on Panzer despite calling him town. Goat is misrepresenting the post because he "overlooked" the idea of Zilla's stances in that post being example and not necessarily true.

Goat's actual stance: Zilla said in her recent post that she had GIEFF and Dour as town because they had been "hardly commenting on the rest of the game" and "they didn't have any other outstanding stance on other players." In the post Zilla linked, by stating a possible reason for finding GIEFF scummy is that he has been "tunneling on Panzer" she shows knowledge that GIEFF has other stances than just ones on Dour. One such stance is his constant attacks on Panzer, a stance which she is knowledgeable of.

Zilla's statement: "hardly commenting on the rest of the game." She knows GIEFF has been attacking Panzer, thus this is a lie.

Zilla's statement: "They didn't have any other outstanding stance on other players." If GIEFF tunneling on Panzer is a

possible

avenue for attacking him, then it's clear he has had outstanding stances on other players, thus this is a lie.

Zilla didn't have a valid reason for why her stance on GIEFF changed from one of her most townie to a scum buddy to me in the span of a few posts. That's why her reasoning for why she originally thought he was a townie doesn't match up with the facts. She was put on the spot, and had to lie. As scum, she knows who is town or scum. Her most townie is kind of an arbitrary appointment based on how she best wants to be viewed. As scum, she might put Dour and GIEFF as her most townie, because she thinks that is what will make her look the most pro-town, for instance. It's not because they've actually done anything to make her think they are town. She already knows this. That's why it's such a big deal that she has obviously lied about the reasons for initially finding them town. As a townie, she would not have to lie about this, because she wouldn't have listed them as her most pro-town unless she legitimately believed that to be true. When pressured, she could simply give her reasons. As scum, though, her reasoning is "because I know they are town because I'm scum" or "this is what will make me look the best" which she cannot give as her reasoning. So she has to lie. And her lie just got called out.

[mykonian]

ok, I read it wrong the first time, obviously.

But again, if I was scum, and I would try to look as protown as possible, I would refrain from changing stances a lot, and I would tunnel more, just to avoid this problem. If you change stances as scum you can wait for this.

But on the other hand, as towny, if you think things over/reread and you come to a different conclusion, wouldn't you change? Tunneling is antitown.

The thing that bothers me most is the fact that you can be called protown for not having a stance on the rest of the game...

[springlullaby]

I addressed that in this post. I think Zilla is scum. If she is scum, I think that makes you more likely to be town based on your early Dejkha pressure. Besides, I would never advocate a policy lynch over someone I strongly feel to be scum.

Also, I laughed at your freudian slip bolded above.

Yes, I've read that and I don't think it makes sense, see contradiction indicated in bold and italics:

I don't want to policy lynch SL, or have her replaced. I think she's more likely to be town if Zilla is scum

(early pressure on Dejkha would

have to be busing in that case),

which I think is likely

. I just want her to catch up and start playing the game.

But no matter for now, I don't think you are scum atm but I also very much doubt Zilla is scum.

-----------------------

On Zilla, the bravado with which she made her entry and the fact that she has been actively pissing people off doesn't read like scum to me. Also I don't see her doing the flipflop she had going on Goat if she were scum, I think town uncertainty is more likely.

If anything Goat is the one I'd see as scum in that pair, if there is scum to be found there, because of a series of factor I'm too lazy to type now. BUT comparatively to players other than Zilla, I would still put him in low danger for now.

------------------------

Vote Beyond_Birthday

Dislike earlier analysis of the game with capslock and shit (exaggerated emotional inflexion). I don't like the quoting of huge walls to basically say 'I agree'. I don't like the 'note to self' which promptly disappeared after they've been ridiculed.

I don't like the fact that he's been voting Zilla because she's been

defending

him.

The last is a particularly damning tell in my book - this is day 1, I haven't seen many town who would vote for people on the ground that they've been defending them. And I don't like his push for a claim on Zilla.

[Dourgrim]

I'm here, reading and keeping up, trying to keep thread noise down on my end.

This is a knee-jerk reaction to the thread as of late: Zilla/Goatrevolt = GIEFF/Dourgrim. Both seem to be pairs of players whose play styles seem to clash, and although Goat's case on Zilla is still solid, the whole debate seems to be breaking down into "You lied!" "No, YOU lied!" stuff, and neither one seems to be convincing too many people in the thread that their case is airtight. Any of this sound familiar, GIEFF?

My stance on Panzer hasn't changed, and his bullshit "I refuse to post until Zilla claims" crap makes me very happy with my vote on him, whether the rest of the Town sees him as a valid lynch target or not at the moment.

[GIEFF]

Any of this sound familiar, GIEFF?

NO! I DISAGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY! WE NEVER CLASH!

Dourgrim, what do you think about my analysis into Panzer's meta, that showed that he is more likely to come up with new cases as scum than as town?


---
I see your point now, Goatrevolt; you were not misrepresenting anything, I just misunderstood. I think a better way to demonstrate her flip-flop on me is the fact that Zilla thought I was one of the only two pro-town people up until I started attacking her.


---

The last is a particularly damning tell in my book - this is day 1, I haven't seen many town who would vote for people on the ground that they've been defending them.

Glad you're on the B_B wagon, but I disagree with this bit. Scum defend townies all the time, to link themselves, and to get them on their "side." The fact that Panzer wasn't suspicious of mykonian doing so is actually scummier to me than the fact that B_B WAS suspicious of Zilla doing so.

---

I don't have time right now, but I'll deal with mykonian's ridiculous posts later. They have no bearing in reality whatsoever. If I have time, I'll go through all the untrue and misleading things you've said, mykonian. There are a LOT.

[Goatrevolt]

Yes, I've read that and I don't think it makes sense, see contradiction indicated in bold and italics:

I don't want to policy lynch SL, or have her replaced. I think she's more likely to be town if Zilla is scum

(early pressure on Dejkha would

have to be busing in that case),

which I think is likely

. I just want her to catch up and start playing the game.

But no matter for now, I don't think you are scum atm but I also very much doubt Zilla is scum.

There is no contradiction. You're reading it wrong because you're not taking into account the parenthesis. I'm not saying you busing Dejkha is likely, I'm saying Zilla as scum is likely. If I was trying to say you busing Dejkha was likely, it would be inside the parenthesis.

On Zilla, the bravado with which she made her entry and the fact that she has been actively pissing people off doesn't read like scum to me. Also I don't see her doing the flipflop she had going on Goat if she were scum, I think town uncertainty is more likely.

Originally yes, that's why I had her as town. Then there comes a point where you realize some of her behavior does not fit a town mindset.

As for her flip-flopping, a lot of it makes little sense. There is her attacking me when admittedly she should have been attacking BB. Then there is her swapping her vote to BB when she just finished going on and on to GIEFF about how I was her top suspect. I don't buy "town uncertainty." I'm calling it scum opportunism.

I see your point now, Goatrevolt; you were not misrepresenting anything, I just misunderstood. I think a better way to demonstrate her flip-flop on me is the fact that Zilla thought I was one of the only two pro-town people up until I started attacking her.

You're still missing the point. She directly lied. She gave a reason for why she initially had you as town that simply cannot be the truth. Her stated reason: GIEFF didn't have stances on anyone other than Dour. That simply cannot be the truth. She knows you had stances on people other than Dour.

I'm not trying to "demonstrate the flip flop." What purpose would that serve? I'm showing how she blatantly lied.

[GIEFF]

No, I get the point. Both things show that her declaration that she saw me as pro-town was not genuine. If she really thought I was pro-town, she would not have so quickly switched to assuming I'm your scumbuddy (the "flip-flop"). If she really thought I was pro-town, she would not have lied.

Two clues that both lead to the same place. Zilla's declaration that she saw me as pro-town was not based on evidence she gathered from the thread; it was based on her decision that to say she sees me as pro-town benefits her.

----

Still waiting for you to respond, B_B.

[Goatrevolt]

No, I get the point. Both things show that her declaration that she saw me as pro-town was not genuine. If she really thought I was pro-town, she would not have so quickly switched to assuming I'm your scumbuddy (the "flip-flop"). If she really thought I was pro-town, she would not have lied.

Two clues that both lead to the same place. Zilla's declaration that she saw me as pro-town was not based on evidence she gathered from the thread; it was based on her decision that to say she sees me as pro-town benefits her.

Exactly. So then, what's the catch?

[GIEFF]

Here is an update to the voting history. I wish there was some code for a box you could click to make the below text appear and disappear, as it may make the thread a bit difficult to read, but I think the information is worth it.

mykonian's history is particularly hilarious.

militant, ting, and subgenius have very little vote-changing. Are you more certain than the rest of us, or do you just not have as much interest in catching scum? ting's vote is still on Panzer, from

post 38.

That is shocking.

I noticed that the script didn't pick up B_B's vote for Panzer; I think this is because it came after too much text ahead of time. The character-limit was reached, I guess. Let me know if you see any other mistakes, please.

By Character

[/size]

Panzerjager

Vote:GIEFF Post 19
Unvote, Vote:Mykonian Post 36
FoS:Ting Post 44
Unvote: Vote:Springlullaby Post 158
FoS:Gieff Post 225
Unvote: Vote: Beyong_Birthday, Unvote: Vote:Zilla FoS:Beying Birthday Post 265
Unvote:Zilla, Unvote: Vote: Beyond Birthday Post 296
Unvote. Vote:Zilla Post 298
Unvote, Vote:Beyond_Birthday Post 433
Unvote:Vote:Zilla. Post 623

Goatrevolt

Vote: Panzerjager Post 20
Unvote, Vote MacavityLock Post 77
Unvote, Vote Beyond_Birthday Post 285
FoS Zilla Post 524
Unvote, Vote Zilla Post 551

mykonian

vote GIEFF Post 24
unvote, vote GIEFF Post 55
FoS GIEFF and Dourgrim Post 137
vote Beyond_birthday. <BR><BR>FoS GIEFF Post 241
unvote vote Beyond_birthday Post 251
unvote vote GIEFF Post 312
unvote Post 414
vote GIEFF Post 579

militant

Vote ting =) Post 25
Unvote Post 279
Vote Zilla Post 562

ting =)

Vote: MacavityLock Post 26
unvote. Vote:Panzerjager Post 38

qwints

Vote: Dourgrim

(Posted as MacavityLock)

Post 27
Unvote: Dour. Vote: Panzer

(Posted as MacavityLock)

Post 47
Unvote

(Posted as MacavityLock)

Post 125
vote Beyond_Birthday Post 517
FOS: Zilla Post 704

Dourgrim

vote: Panzerjager Post 28
unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF Post 33
FoS: springlullaby Post 40
unvote: GIEFF Post 80
FoS: mykonian, vote: Panzer Post 95
FoS: GIEFF Post 217
unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF Post 219
unvote: GIEFF <BR><BR>FoS: GIEFF, vote: Beyond_Birthday, HUGE FoS's: ting =) and qwints, slightly smaller but still pretty big FoS: springlullaby Post 400
medium-sized FoS: subgenius Post 442
unvote: BB <BR><BR>vote: Panzer Post 445
unvote Post 625
vote: Zilla Post 640
unvote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: Panzerjager Post 691

subgenius

vote:Militant Post 29
FoS: Panzer Post 167
unvote <BR>vote: Panzerjager Post 170

Beyond_Birthday

Vote mykonian Post 31
Unvotes Post 71
Unvote Post 234
Vote Zilla Post 384

springlullaby

Vote subgenius Post 39
Vote djekha Post 97
Unvote, vote djekha Post 98
Unvote Post 270

Zilla

FoS: Dourgrim

(Posted as dejkha)

Post 46
Vote: Goatrevolt Post 259
FOS Post 275
unvote: goatrevolt, Vote: Mykonian Post 297
FOS: Goatrevolt Post 421
FOS'd Post 441
unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Goatrevolt Post 486
Unvote: Goatrevolte, Vote: Beyond Birthday Post 544
unvote: Birthday <BR>vote: Goatrevolt Post 662
FOS: Mykonian Post 663

GIEFF

Vote: Dourgrim Post 54
FOS Panzerjager Post 96
unvote, Vote Panzerjager Post 105
FoS mykonian Post 193
FoS militant Post 244
Not a random vote, HoS Beyond_Birthday Post 305
Unvote, Vote Beyond_Birthday Post 398
Unvote, Vote Zilla Post 550
Confirm vote Zilla Post 581
unvote, vote qwints Post 608
unvote qwints Post 681
Vote: Beyond_Birthday Post 685

By Chronology

[/size]

Post Number

Poster

Vote
Post 1

kloud1516

vote: kloud unvote
Post 19

Panzerjager

Vote:GIEFF
Post 20

Goatrevolt

Vote: Panzerjager
Post 24

mykonian

vote GIEFF
Post 25

militant

Vote ting =)
Post 26

ting =)

Vote: MacavityLock
Post 27

MacavityLock

Vote: Dourgrim
Post 28

Dourgrim

vote: Panzerjager
Post 29

subgenius

vote:Militant
Post 31

Beyond_Birthday

Vote mykonian
Post 33

Dourgrim

unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF
Post 36

Panzerjager

Unvote, Vote:Mykonian
Post 38

ting =)

unvote. Vote:Panzerjager
Post 39

springlullaby

Vote subgenius
Post 40

Dourgrim

FoS: springlullaby
Post 44

Panzerjager

FoS:Ting
Post 46

dejkha

FoS: Dourgrim
Post 47

MacavityLock

Unvote: Dour. Vote: Panzer
Post 54

GIEFF

Vote: Dourgrim
Post 55

mykonian

unvote vote GIEFF
Post 71

Beyond_Birthday

Unvotes
Post 77

Goatrevolt

Unvote, Vote MacavityLock
Post 80

Dourgrim

unvote: GIEFF
Post 95

Dourgrim

FoS: mykonian vote: Panzer
Post 96

GIEFF

FOS Panzerjager
Post 97

springlullaby

Vote djekha
Post 98

springlullaby

Unvote, vote djekha
Post 105

GIEFF

unvote Vote Panzerjager
Post 125

MacavityLock

Unvote
Post 137

mykonian

FoS GIEFF and Dourgrim
Post 158

Panzerjager

Unvote: Vote:Springlullaby
Post 167

subgenius

FoS: Panzer
Post 170

subgenius

unvote <BR>vote: Panzerjager
Post 193

GIEFF

FoS mykonian
Post 217

Dourgrim

FoS: GIEFF
Post 219

Dourgrim

unvote: Panzerjager <BR><BR>vote: GIEFF
Post 225

Panzerjager

FoS:Gieff
Post 234

Beyond_Birthday

Unvote
Post 241

mykonian

vote Beyond_birthday. <BR><BR>FoS GIEFF
Post 244

GIEFF

FoS militant
Post 251

mykonian

unvote vote Beyond_birthday
Post 259

Zilla

Vote: Goatrevolt
Post 265

Panzerjager

Unvote: Vote: Beyong_Birthday Unvote: Vote:Zilla FoS:Beying Birthday
Post 270

springlullaby

Unvote
Post 275

Zilla

FOS
Post 279

militant

Unvote
Post 285

Goatrevolt

Unvote, Vote Beyond_Birthday
Post 296

Panzerjager

Unvote:Zilla Unvote: Vote: Beyond Birthday
Post 297

Zilla

unvote: goatrevolt Vote: Mykonian
Post 298

Panzerjager

Unvote. Vote:Zilla
Post 305

GIEFF

Not a random vote HoS Beyond_Birthday
Post 312

mykonian

unvote vote GIEFF
Post 384

Beyond_Birthday

Vote Zilla
Post 398

GIEFF

Unvote Vote Beyond_Birthday
Post 400

Dourgrim

unvote: GIEFF <BR><BR>FoS: GIEFF vote: Beyond_Birthday HUGE FoS's: ting =) and qwints slightly smaller but still pretty big FoS: springlullaby
Post 414

mykonian

unvote
Post 421

Zilla

FOS: Goatrevolt
Post 433

Panzerjager

Unvote, Vote:Beyond_Birthday
Post 441

Zilla

FOS'd
Post 442

Dourgrim

medium-sized FoS: subgenius
Post 445

Dourgrim

unvote: BB <BR><BR>vote: Panzer
Post 486

Zilla

unvote: Mykonian <BR>Vote: Goatrevolt
Post 517

qwints

vote Beyond_Birthday
Post 524

Goatrevolt

FoS Zilla
Post 544

Zilla

Unvote: Goatrevolte Vote: Beyond Birthday
Post 550

GIEFF

Unvote Vote Zilla
Post 551

Goatrevolt

Unvote, Vote Zilla
Post 562

militant

Vote Zilla
Post 579

mykonian

vote GIEFF
Post 581

GIEFF

Confirm vote Zilla
Post 608

GIEFF

unvote vote qwints
Post 623

Panzerjager

Unvote:Vote:Zilla.
Post 625

Dourgrim

unvote
Post 640

Dourgrim

vote: Zilla
Post 662

Zilla

unvote: Birthday <BR>vote: Goatrevolt
Post 663

Zilla

FOS: Mykonian
Post 681

GIEFF

unvote qwints
Post 685

GIEFF

Vote: Beyond_Birthday
Post 691

Dourgrim

unvote: Zilla <BR><BR>vote: Panzerjager
Post 704

qwints

FOS: Zilla

[GIEFF]

Exactly. So then, what's the catch?

What do you mean by this? Are you asking why I don't like the Zilla wagon?

I still think Zilla is scummy, but I think B_B is just as scummy, and there aren't the same problems with his lynch.

See Post 681.


Do you not find B_B as scummy as you once did, Goat? Or do you think B_B's scumminess is the same as it has been, but Zilla's has since surpassed his? Re-read the section of the thread where you were suspicious of him.

I realized on a recent read-through that I have been casting my vote based on who was most recently suspicious, but the amount of time that has passed since a scummy action should not negate that action's scumminess. If so, I am allowing a lurking strategy to be successful. Scum will think "I just have to wait this pressure out until somebody else does something scummy, too."


Also, Goat, if you do think that Zilla is significantly scummier than B_B, do you think this could be because she has simply said so many more words, and had so much more interaction with you?

[GIEFF]

More things to add to my list in Post 681:

• I don't like the fact that mykonian has now called Zilla a townie for the THIRD time
• I don't like the fact that mykonian wants a Zilla-claim even though he doesn't think she is scum
• I don't like the fact that Dourgrim hopped back off the wagon after I asked him (in post 681) why he voted for Zilla, as he previously said he wanted to avoid the B_B/Zilla WIFOM
• I don't like the fact that Panzer has gone so far in demanding a Zilla-claim that he is refusing to post anything until this happens
• I don't like the fact that people are still demanding Zilla claims, even though she is at L-4

Although, to be fair, the reverse of my latest post could be true; I may be seeing more things wrong with the Zilla wagon simply because she has talked more and had more interactions with people.


If you want to boil that whole list down into one sentence, it is this: I don't like the fact that the players I find the scummiest are the ones clamoring for Zilla to claim or to get lynched.

[Zilla]

First, on "lying about GIEFF," I didn't think GIEFF had actually been tunneling and even though he had an initial focus on Panzer, he dropped that when Dour challenged him, and then he and Dour traded blows ad infinitum.

The nature of their argument, however, is why they looked town, albeit that was because they didn't have much to say on the rest of the thread. What I was trying to say before is that they didn't actually have a lot of things to guage, and the things they were bickering about and the manner in which they were arguing, especially how they both had heat-up cooldown periods that had nothing to do with actual scumminess, made it seem like two townies arguing playstyle. Since they didn't have anything else to really comment on, and since the rest of the thread was loaded with scummy players, I listed them as my top town players. Even in my "case building exercise," my points on GIEFF and Dour are the weakest, at least in my book. I put lurking above their transgressions.

I should address the "accountability" thing; I didn't use that word until then, but that was the crux of my initial case on Goat to begin with. He refused to provide his own views on the current game. I didn't get around to explaining how that relates to accountability until later because, frankly, that kind of refusal doesn't usually happen, and most of the time, the town understands the reasoning that I had to explain.

On the "quick change" on GIEFF, it wasn't quick at all. [/url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 79#1493179]It started when you defended Goat at a level I felt was unreasonable.[/url]

Mounting suspicion.

Brief mention of GIEFF "attempting to control my vote".

Addressing misconceptions from GIEFF.

My suspicion on GIEFF

was

entirely based on his "alliance" with Goat, similar issues between his and Goat's cases, and how it seemed like he and Goat were essentially the same alignment. Now he's being quite pro-town in his approach, although that doesn't instantly indicate a town player. He's never been my top suspect or anything, and at most, I saw him as an accomplice for borrowing Goat's flawed logic.

I could similarly post my quite large case on Goat, but it really seems like no matter what I do, Goat won't be lynched. I don't recall any other time I've been in this position before. Usually, even if my case is flawed, scum will jump on because there's a case they don't have to be accountable for, and usually my cases aren't as ignored as they have been in this one.

So, with reluctance,

unvote: Goat

I'm willing to lynch Mykonian or Panzer, and to a lesser degree, BB. Panzer and Mykonian have been crazy scummy lately, and they've been scummy more consistantly throughout the thread. I still feel Mykonian is a better choice than Panzer. I'm less inclined to lynch BB because he hasn't been as consistently scummy aside from refusing to answer for his outstanding accusations.

[kloud1516]

It has been more than 72 hours since I sent the second prod to subgenius, which has yet to even be picked up. As such, I will begin looking for a replacement player. Vote Count coming soon.

[GIEFF]

First, on "lying about GIEFF," I didn't think GIEFF had actually been tunneling and even though he had an initial focus on Panzer, he dropped that when Dour challenged him, and then he and Dour traded blows ad infinitum.

This isn't what happened; Dour and I "traded blows" first, and then I focused on Panzer.

[kloud1516]

Vote Count XI

Zilla

(3): Beyond_Birthday, Goatrevolt, Panzerjager

Panzerjager

(3): ting=), subgenius, Dourgrim

Beyond_Birthday

(3): qwints, GIEFF, springlullaby

springlullaby

(1): mykonian

Not Voting:

militant, Zilla

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Please notify me if there is a discrepancy in the list above

[Goatrevolt]

Exactly. So then, what's the catch?

What do you mean by this? Are you asking why I don't like the Zilla wagon?

I still think Zilla is scummy, but I think B_B is just as scummy, and there aren't the same problems with his lynch.

See Post 681.

I guess that makes sense. I was going to argue about how Zilla lying about her reasoning is your big number 1 in terms of catching scum and that you weren't acting on it, but I guess BB also lied about his reasoning for voting Panzer.

Do you not find B_B as scummy as you once did, Goat? Or do you think B_B's scumminess is the same as it has been, but Zilla's has since surpassed his? Re-read the section of the thread where you were suspicious of him.

No, I would say my suspicion of him is less than what it was back then. This is due a lot to Zilla. I think BB's initial point on Zilla (her irrational defense of him) is a valid one. I think BB is much less likely to be scum if Zilla is scum, and I feel stronger about her being scum.

BB and Zilla have exhibited the same tell, lying about their reasoning. That is a huge tell. The big difference for me is that BB has been straightforward since that point. Zilla has not been. She prefers to distort and misrepresent and deflect. I've never gotten the impression from her that she is trying to find scum or town, but more that she is trying to assert that people are scum or town. This is evidenced in the lie I just caught her on regarding her change from you being a townie to being scum as well as your recent post that looked through our early interactions. She didn't have you as town because she legitimately believed aspects of your play made you likely to be town. If that were the case, she wouldn't have had to lie about it. She wasn't trying to determine if I was scum. That's obvious. She didn't go back and examine my stances, and she didn't bother to know what my case on BB was even about. Instead, I distinctly got the impression she was trying to pin me as scum. She threw 3 points at me, I shot them down, so she moved on to other points and ignored the first ones.

I realized on a recent read-through that I have been casting my vote based on who was most recently suspicious, but the amount of time that has passed since a scummy action should not negate that action's scumminess. If so, I am allowing a lurking strategy to be successful. Scum will think "I just have to wait this pressure out until somebody else does something scummy, too."

No, the period of time doesn't negate the action. However, do you feel BB has been lurking? I don't think that is the case.

Also, Goat, if you do think that Zilla is significantly scummier than B_B, do you think this could be because she has simply said so many more words, and had so much more interaction with you?

No. I don't think this is a valid point. You have said just as many words as she has this game, and I feel the whole of your play has been strongly pro-town thus far. More words just mean more chances for her insincere suspicions to catch up to her. As town, she wouldn't have an issue trying to keep her story straight, because her story wouldn't be based on lies and deceit.

I'm going to address your specific complaints. I numbered them, and will answer with the corresponding number.

1. I don't like the way Dourgrim hopped on the wagon after I hopped off. I thought you wanted to avoid the WIFOM in a Zilla lynch, Dourgrim?
2. I don't like the way Panzer hopped on the wagon after I hopped off, especially the fact that he APOLOGIZED to Goat while doing so, and when looking at his recent voting history (see below).
3. I don't like that both of these hops on the wagon happened at least partly due to being convinced by Goat.
4. I don't like that Goat is now trying to get me back on the wagon.
5. I don't like the fact that mykonian has TWICE called Zilla a townie.
6. I don't like Panzer saying "we are in danger of overthinking this lynch" after I hopped off.
7. I don't like the fact that the very first person to vote Zilla was B_B, in the midst of him failing to defend himself against accusations.

8. I don't like the fact that mykonian has now called Zilla a townie for the THIRD time
9. I don't like the fact that mykonian wants a Zilla-claim even though he doesn't think she is scum
10. I don't like the fact that Dourgrim hopped back off the wagon after I asked him (in post 681) why he voted for Zilla, as he previously said he wanted to avoid the B_B/Zilla WIFOM
11. I don't like the fact that Panzer has gone so far in demanding a Zilla-claim that he is refusing to post anything until this happens
12.I don't like the fact that people are still demanding Zilla claims, even though she is at L-4

1. The manner in which he hopped on Zilla was suspect. However, he immediately hopped back off. Most important, though, Dourgrim acted exactly the same way towards the BB wagon. He jumped on, then back off for Panzer. If this is an issue for lynching Zilla (I don't see it as one. Scum buddy reluctance to lynch her. Indecisive townie? there are plenty of explanations) then it should also be an issue against lynching BB.

2. I addressed this already, but Panzer had already made it clear he wanted a Zilla or BB lynch. His vote on Zilla should not have been a surprise. In fact, he also placed a vote on BB when the wagon was gaining steam. Shouldn't that also be a detracting factor from the BB wagon?

3. Irrelevant point. You didn't have an issue with Dour voting BB when I "pushed" him into it earlier. I'm convincing people to vote for Zilla based on her play, not coercion. You yourself have admitted there is nothing wrong with me championing for a lynch on someone I believe to be scum. You right now are championing for a BB lynch. Wouldn't you cry foul if I said that it was a bad wagon because people voted BB based on your push?

4. Addressed already. And you would prefer me to join the BB wagon over the Zilla one. You maybe weren't as aggressive about it as I was, but you have the same mindset I had.

5. Mykonian argued that Panzer was a townie. That didn't stop you from pressuring him. If this was a valid enough point to deter you from a wagon, then it should also be a valid enough point for you to be voting Mykonian now.

6. This is just a difference in opinion, but I agreed with his point. Long days are not always helpful to the town, and longer days can muddy the water and confuse things.

7. I don't have a problem with it, considering his point was actually valid. If he was voting her based on poor or weak reasoning, then I would agree.

8. I personally think you are overstating the magnitude of this. Do you think Mykonian as scum would blatantly state someone is a townie after the ruckus that had been raised earlier in the thread over that same point? This is an easy "slip" for townies to make. If you think someone is scum, then you naturally feel that the people they are attacking are townies. Furthermore, Mykonian has said that BB was an easy target, and argued against Panzer's lynch as well. This doesn't apply only to the Zilla-wagon.

9. That boggles me a bit as well, but I think it's a clash of misunderstanding. He thinks she's going to be lynched and that for some reason we would lynch her without a claim. From his posts, I get the picture that him wanting Zilla to claim is out of defense for her, not the opposite.

10. He did the same thing to the BB wagon. I don't understand it, but it's not a tell that only applies to this wagon. Besides, I don't feel like Dour's in and out on the Zilla wagon is a huge tell by itself, because it can be read as busing scum, indecisive townie, scum afraid of dirtying his hands, etc.

11. Technically, Zilla did not live up to her end of the bargain. She said she would claim if certain criteria were met, and as I recall, those criteria were met and she did not claim. I'll have to check the specifics on it. Right now, I agree that she shouldn't have to claim at L-4. Back then, I think she should have claimed, and I don't fault people for harassing her over not doing so.

12. Related to 11.

[Zilla]

First, on "lying about GIEFF," I didn't think GIEFF had actually been tunneling and even though he had an initial focus on Panzer, he dropped that when Dour challenged him, and then he and Dour traded blows ad infinitum.

This isn't what happened; Dour and I "traded blows" first, and then I focused on Panzer.

Really, I thought Dour was attacking you for tunneling on Panzer, I wasn't counting his original attack on you over the lack of voting.

I'm not claiming because I don't need to. I wanted to see Goat's case, to see if it was valid, and if I still needed to claim afterward. I don't think I need to.

Goat's case is based on "catching" me at inconsistencies, which translates to, either intentionally or not, misunderstanding and misrepresenting me, or tunnelvisioning.

New direction time.

The only person Mykonian has been really attacking this game has been GIEFF, and that's for attacking Panzer and me. I don't think there's any reason he would do this as town. His reasons for thinking people are town are quite subjective and flimsy. He voted Birthday because "His notes are annoying and appear too often" despite making an entire post about how GIEFF doesn't have a case and agreeing with Birthday.

Vote: Mykonian

[GIEFF]

1. The manner in which he hopped on Zilla was suspect. However, he immediately hopped back off. Most important, though, Dourgrim acted exactly the same way towards the BB wagon. He jumped on, then back off for Panzer. If this is an issue for lynching Zilla (I don't see it as one. Scum buddy reluctance to lynch her. Indecisive townie? there are plenty of explanations) then it should also be an issue against lynching BB.

The issue with #1 is that Dourgrim's hop on came AFTER his post about the WIFOM inherent in either a B_B or a Zilla lynch. The B_B unvote was partly due to Dourgrim wanting to avoid this WIFOM, so it made little sense for Dourgrim to get back on a Zilla wagon, especially as the 4th or 5th vote.

2. I addressed this already, but Panzer had already made it clear he wanted a Zilla or BB lynch. His vote on Zilla should not have been a surprise. In fact, he also placed a vote on BB when the wagon was gaining steam. Shouldn't that also be a detracting factor from the BB wagon?

It's possible I just noticed it because it was soon after I voted, but it looked as if he was happy to watch the Zilla wagon gain steam without actually being on it, but as soon as it looked like it may be derailed, he jumped on. You are right that this reason does apply to the B_B wagon; a scummy player keeps switching his vote between the two players.

3. Irrelevant point. You didn't have an issue with Dour voting BB when I "pushed" him into it earlier. I'm convincing people to vote for Zilla based on her play, not coercion. You yourself have admitted there is nothing wrong with me championing for a lynch on someone I believe to be scum. You right now are championing for a BB lynch. Wouldn't you cry foul if I said that it was a bad wagon because people voted BB based on your push?

The real issue was that I didn't like was the fact that Panzer and Dourgrim hopped on. It was after I noticed this that I realized both hops were subsequent to your persuasion. And then I noticed you trying to persuade me, too.

As I said, I don't like the fact that the person "championing" the lynch is the person the lynch-target was hammering on for the last 15 pages. It's impossible to avoid at least some emotion creeping in. I don't think it is scummy that you are doing so, I just don't like it; it isn't "clean." If we are prepared to lynch Zilla, I'd like to have another non-scummy-looking person (i.e. not mykonian, Panzer, or B_B) championing it along side you, someone that isn't so emotionally invested.

You are right that we have the same problem with a B_B lynch if I am the only one championing it. Not from my own perspective, of course, but from everyone else's. Do I have any takers for a co-champion of a B_B-lynch?

5. Mykonian argued that Panzer was a townie. That didn't stop you from pressuring him. If this was a valid enough point to deter you from a wagon, then it should also be a valid enough point for you to be voting Mykonian now.

It is valid enough for me to vote mykonian, but I still think I find B_B scummier. I would love for mykonian to try to put a case together on me, as he has been tunneled on me for 20 pages. Back it up with some analysis, mykonian. No generalities like "he tunnels" or "he nitpicks." Surely if you've found me the most suspicious player for 20 pages, you can at least do that much.

He called Panzer a townie once, which I thought was scummy, but I can see it just being a coincidence. He has referred to Zilla's towniness THREE times, which, as I said before, stretches the limits of coincidence.

7. I don't have a problem with it, considering his point was actually valid. If he was voting her based on poor or weak reasoning, then I would agree.

Looking back, it actually looks like PANZER was the first to vote Zilla, who was then followed by B_B. I think this is what Dourgrim was referring to in the "Zilla-WIFOM" post. I am a whole lot more comfortable with the initial Zilla-vote being from Panzer than with it being from B_B.

8. I personally think you are overstating the magnitude of this. Do you think Mykonian as scum would blatantly state someone is a townie after the ruckus that had been raised earlier in the thread over that same point? This is an easy "slip" for townies to make. If you think someone is scum, then you naturally feel that the people they are attacking are townies. Furthermore, Mykonian has said that BB was an easy target, and argued against Panzer's lynch as well. This doesn't apply only to the Zilla-wagon.

I see your question in the opposite light; EVEN after the ruckus raised, he STILL does it. It isn't so simple as saying "Zilla is townie," it's things that reveal that mykonian is assuming Zilla is town. Go back and actually read what he wrote.



11 and 12. I agree that the criteria Zilla mentioned were met, and that she should have claimed. Regardless, calling for a claim when a player is at L-4 is not pro-town. Not realizing how many votes a player has when you are clamoring for her to claim is also not pro-town. And it's the scummiest players in the game who are doing it. Doesn't that set off any bells?

When B_B, mykonian, and Panzer all agree on something, my instinct is to do the opposite.

Do you disagree?


You are also right that a number of these points also apply to a B_B wagon, especially regarding Panzer's behavior. But Dourgrim's behavior does just apply to Zilla, as the Zilla-vote occurred after he said he didn't want to lynch B_B or Zilla, and the B_B vote occurred before he said that.

-----

B_B, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on a mykonian lynch.

[Goatrevolt]

First, on "lying about GIEFF," I didn't think GIEFF had actually been tunneling and even though he had an initial focus on Panzer, he dropped that when Dour challenged him, and then he and Dour traded blows ad infinitum.

First of all, this is not true.

Secondly, Post 471 is where you mention GIEFF and Dour are last on your suspect list. Prior to that post is Post 446 where you note that the difference in information between a Panzer lynch and Mykonian lynch is what we would learn about GIEFF. We wouldn't learn anything about GIEFF if he did have any outstanding stances besides his stance on Dour. Next up is Post 388 where you directly question GIEFF on his stance of agreeing with my suspicion on BB. Ignoring for a second that you thought my case on BB was weak and scummy, but you didn't have an issue with GIEFF agreeing with it, this is you commenting directly on a stance GIEFF took. "has no outstanding stances"...

I could similarly post my quite large case on Goat, but it really seems like no matter what I do, Goat won't be lynched. I don't recall any other time I've been in this position before. Usually, even if my case is flawed, scum will jump on because there's a case they don't have to be accountable for, and usually my cases aren't as ignored as they have been in this one.

Read: "My spin on Goat isn't working out. The players in this game are too smart to grab hold of my non-existant logic, and people think I'm scum. I need to change directions now. I'll give them some weak justification for hopping off Goat and then move on to Mykonian. Maybe people will buy my Mykonian case and this deflection will allow me to escape unharmed!"

Goat's case is based on "catching" me at inconsistencies, which translates to, either intentionally or not, misunderstanding and misrepresenting me, or tunnelvisioning.

Ladies and Gentlemen, today I present to you

Exhibit 1: Deflection.

In this exhibit, we see cornered scum Zilla masterfully attempting to wiggle her way out of an airtight case by spinning my catching her at inconsistencies as misunderstanding/misrepresentation/or tunnelvision. Notice how there is no actual attempt to debunk my statements, or prove how my inconsistencies are not actual inconsistencies. There is merely a statement that they are somehow misrepresentation, and then she goes on to change the subject.

I would like to direct your attention to an analogous situation that oddly mirrors the exact same scenario we find ourselves currently presented with. That scenario takes place in Post 544. In that post, we see Zilla similarly cornered with arguments she has no reply to, and we see her similarly attempt to wiggle her way out by changing her vote to Birthday, and trying to put pressure on him to deflect from her growing case. Note the end of that post, and how she changes directions from fighting a losing battle defending herself against points to trying to go on the offensive by calling out Panzer for lurking and attacking Mykonian. That looks quite a bit like deflection.

---------------------

I seriously do not understand how people can look at Zilla and not see her as scum. None of her pressure is scum hunting. Look at her recent vote changes and the timing. They are all opportunistic. Notice how Zilla no longer wishes to argue with me, or vote me after I have "misrepresented her stance." Instead, she takes a pacifying tone and changes direction to Mykonian. There is no legitimate suspicion backing her actions here. This is all done because this is what is best for Zilla.

[Goatrevolt]

GIEFF, my points are no less valid because of any perceived emotional ties between myself and Zilla. I will admit, I have gotten emotional at various points of the game, but I would not be driving a lynch on her for this many consecutive pages if my vote was based in emotion. If my vote on her were purely emotion, I would not be basing it

entirely

off of evidence. Not a single point I have raised against her is related to my frustration of her. Not one.

Even if emotion were the grounding for my vote

, it does not make my points against her any less valid. Zilla is about as obvious scum as one can possibly get right now. I'm frustrated that nobody else sees it. I've pointed it out as clearly as I can and in as many fashions as I can. Her recent posts are textbook deflection. Why is she changing her vote off of me? Is it because nobody else buys me as scum? That didn't stop her for the entire rest of the game when she was voting me and she was the only one on my wagon. No, that isn't the reason. The real reason is that she needed to change the subject, change pace, push for someone else because she is in over her head. Her vote on Birthday was exactly the same. That vote wasn't placed out of legitimate suspicion. I've argued that point so many times prior. She said I was scum over and over again, but then voted for Birthday, who is less likely to be scum if I am. Those plays are not ones townies make. Zilla is not a stupid player. Look at the way she can manipulate a discussion. You've seen firsthand how she manipulated our first back and forth to her ends. Look at the way she has changed her mind from voting me and it doesn't matter if nobody else is, to voting BB because she realizes I'm not going to get lynched, to voting me again, and now back to dropping my case because nobody else is on board. She has flip-flopped on that so many times, and every single time it lines up with an opportunistic need to change the subject.

I cannot do any more to change anyone's mind. I have argued this point so many times, in such a clear fashion for pages and pages. Her wagon is not scum driven. Scum driven wagons don't peter out as the evidence in support of the wagon grows. Zilla is not town. If she were, she would be able to explain her inconsistencies rather than deflect. Her suspicion is not legitimate. If it was, she would not be so inconsistent and dishonest about it.

[GIEFF]

Notice how there is no actual attempt to debunk my statements, or prove how my inconsistencies are not actual inconsistencies.

That just isn't true. Look at her mega-post. I don't agree with all of her logic or her version of events, but you can't claim that there was no attempt to debunk your statements.

She did have some points in that mega-post that I DID agree with. An important one was saying B_B was at 75%, but you were at 20%. When she said you were at 20%, it was in response to my question about if she suspected a Goat-mykonian-Panzer scumtriplet. It was a nested percentage, based on the alignment of others.

-----

I agree with your points about her lack of scumhunting and the timing of her votes, though, and they are strong ones. Zilla, in your vote for B_B, you made an entire post about me and Goat, and said only a few words about B_B. You behaved similarly in your recent vote for mykonian, only deciding to talk about mykonian once you said you realized your Goat case wasn't going to lead to a lynch, which should have been clear pages and pages ago.

[Goatrevolt]

Because I am unrelenting:

From Post 738:

I think I must have

missed most of 551/554 somehow

, that was during a really busy time when I was on between classes and had lots of projects due. If it's really necessary, I'll go back and answer that monster as well.

From Post 580:

Second, there's the whole nature of their disengage plus

goat telling Birthday not to claim.

I thought Birthday was a top suspect for goat?

Why would he switch so superfluously

and tell Birthday not to claim?

From my own Post 551, and Post 554:

Unvote, Vote Zilla

Also, I can claim, but if people think this lead is better, I suggest we follow it.

I'd guess this is obvious by now, but

there is no need for you to claim right now.

------

Lies. She didn't "miss" 551 and 554. She ignored them. Ignoring them isn't necessarily a scum tell. Lying about it is.

[Goatrevolt]

She did have some points in that mega-post that I DID agree with. An important one was saying B_B was at 75%, but you were at 20%. When she said you were at 20%, it was in response to my question about if she suspected a Goat-mykonian-Panzer scumtriplet. It was a nested percentage, based on the alignment of others.

Point me to where Zilla says this.

The only "real" answer she gave was a "whoops, why wasn't I voting BB" followed by stating that it's "in the past now" moving on to say we're dealing with a different issue now, and then making a statement regarding her opinion on BB that ends with "I guess." What part of that explanation satisfied you?

[GIEFF]

I can't find it now, Goat. I'm pretty sure she said something about her 20%-Goat thing being in response to this post by me. I dug through her mega-post, but I can't find it. I'm sure I saw it somewhere, though.

And reading back through her Goat 20% post, I can believe that it was in response to my question about a Goat-mykonian-Panzer scumtriplet.


This is minor, though, and it's still odd you went from such a low probability (even in a nested probability) to the main focus of her attack for 15 pages. I brought this up just to demonstrate the fact that she DID address arguments you've made, and not always poorly.


Goat, how do you feel about mykonian and Panzer? Do you find them as scummy as I do? More or less scummy than B_B? More or less scummy than each other?