GIEFF wrote:Goatrevolt wrote:Exactly. So then, what's the catch?
What do you mean by this? Are you asking why I don't like the Zilla wagon?
I still think Zilla is scummy, but I think B_B is just as scummy, and there aren't the same problems with his lynch.
See
Post 681.
I guess that makes sense. I was going to argue about how Zilla lying about her reasoning is your big number 1 in terms of catching scum and that you weren't acting on it, but I guess BB also lied about his reasoning for voting Panzer.
GIEFF wrote:Do you not find B_B as scummy as you once did, Goat? Or do you think B_B's scumminess is the same as it has been, but Zilla's has since surpassed his? Re-read the section of the thread where you were suspicious of him.
No, I would say my suspicion of him is less than what it was back then. This is due a lot to Zilla. I think BB's initial point on Zilla (her irrational defense of him) is a valid one. I think BB is much less likely to be scum if Zilla is scum, and I feel stronger about her being scum.
BB and Zilla have exhibited the same tell, lying about their reasoning. That is a huge tell. The big difference for me is that BB has been straightforward since that point. Zilla has not been. She prefers to distort and misrepresent and deflect. I've never gotten the impression from her that she is trying to find scum or town, but more that she is trying to assert that people are scum or town. This is evidenced in the lie I just caught her on regarding her change from you being a townie to being scum as well as your recent post that looked through our early interactions. She didn't have you as town because she legitimately believed aspects of your play made you likely to be town. If that were the case, she wouldn't have had to lie about it. She wasn't trying to determine if I was scum. That's obvious. She didn't go back and examine my stances, and she didn't bother to know what my case on BB was even about. Instead, I distinctly got the impression she was trying to pin me as scum. She threw 3 points at me, I shot them down, so she moved on to other points and ignored the first ones.
GIEFF wrote:I realized on a recent read-through that I have been casting my vote based on who was most recently suspicious, but the amount of time that has passed since a scummy action should not negate that action's scumminess. If so, I am allowing a lurking strategy to be successful. Scum will think "I just have to wait this pressure out until somebody else does something scummy, too."
No, the period of time doesn't negate the action. However, do you feel BB has been lurking? I don't think that is the case.
GIEFF wrote:Also, Goat, if you do think that Zilla is significantly scummier than B_B, do you think this could be because she has simply said so many more words, and had so much more interaction with you?
No. I don't think this is a valid point. You have said just as many words as she has this game, and I feel the whole of your play has been strongly pro-town thus far. More words just mean more chances for her insincere suspicions to catch up to her. As town, she wouldn't have an issue trying to keep her story straight, because her story wouldn't be based on lies and deceit.
I'm going to address your specific complaints. I numbered them, and will answer with the corresponding number.
GIEFF wrote: 1. I don't like the way Dourgrim hopped on the wagon after I hopped off. I thought you wanted to avoid the WIFOM in a Zilla lynch, Dourgrim?
2. I don't like the way Panzer hopped on the wagon after I hopped off, especially the fact that he APOLOGIZED to Goat while doing so, and when looking at his recent voting history (see below).
3. I don't like that both of these hops on the wagon happened at least partly due to being convinced by Goat.
4. I don't like that Goat is now trying to get me back on the wagon.
5. I don't like the fact that mykonian has TWICE called Zilla a townie.
6. I don't like Panzer saying "we are in danger of overthinking this lynch" after I hopped off.
7. I don't like the fact that the very first person to vote Zilla was B_B, in the midst of him failing to defend himself against accusations.
GIEFF wrote:8. I don't like the fact that mykonian has now called Zilla a townie for the THIRD time
9. I don't like the fact that mykonian wants a Zilla-claim even though he doesn't think she is scum
10. I don't like the fact that Dourgrim hopped back off the wagon after I asked him (in post 681) why he voted for Zilla, as he previously said he wanted to avoid the B_B/Zilla WIFOM
11. I don't like the fact that Panzer has gone so far in demanding a Zilla-claim that he is refusing to post anything until this happens
12.I don't like the fact that people are still demanding Zilla claims, even though she is at L-4
1. The manner in which he hopped on Zilla was suspect. However, he immediately hopped back off. Most important, though, Dourgrim acted exactly the same way towards the BB wagon. He jumped on, then back off for Panzer. If this is an issue for lynching Zilla (I don't see it as one. Scum buddy reluctance to lynch her. Indecisive townie? there are plenty of explanations) then it should also be an issue against lynching BB.
2. I addressed this already, but Panzer had already made it clear he wanted a Zilla or BB lynch. His vote on Zilla should not have been a surprise. In fact, he also placed a vote on BB when the wagon was gaining steam. Shouldn't that also be a detracting factor from the BB wagon?
3. Irrelevant point. You didn't have an issue with Dour voting BB when I "pushed" him into it earlier. I'm convincing people to vote for Zilla based on her play, not coercion. You yourself have admitted there is nothing wrong with me championing for a lynch on someone I believe to be scum. You right now are championing for a BB lynch. Wouldn't you cry foul if I said that it was a bad wagon because people voted BB based on your push?
4. Addressed already. And you would prefer me to join the BB wagon over the Zilla one. You maybe weren't as aggressive about it as I was, but you have the same mindset I had.
5. Mykonian argued that Panzer was a townie. That didn't stop you from pressuring him. If this was a valid enough point to deter you from a wagon, then it should also be a valid enough point for you to be voting Mykonian now.
6. This is just a difference in opinion, but I agreed with his point. Long days are not always helpful to the town, and longer days can muddy the water and confuse things.
7. I don't have a problem with it, considering his point was actually valid. If he was voting her based on poor or weak reasoning, then I would agree.
8. I personally think you are overstating the magnitude of this. Do you think Mykonian as scum would blatantly state someone is a townie after the ruckus that had been raised earlier in the thread over that same point? This is an easy "slip" for townies to make. If you think someone is scum, then you naturally feel that the people they are attacking are townies. Furthermore, Mykonian has said that BB was an easy target, and argued against Panzer's lynch as well. This doesn't apply only to the Zilla-wagon.
9. That boggles me a bit as well, but I think it's a clash of misunderstanding. He thinks she's going to be lynched and that for some reason we would lynch her without a claim. From his posts, I get the picture that him wanting Zilla to claim is out of defense for her, not the opposite.
10. He did the same thing to the BB wagon. I don't understand it, but it's not a tell that only applies to this wagon. Besides, I don't feel like Dour's in and out on the Zilla wagon is a huge tell by itself, because it can be read as busing scum, indecisive townie, scum afraid of dirtying his hands, etc.
11. Technically, Zilla did not live up to her end of the bargain. She said she would claim if certain criteria were met, and as I recall, those criteria were met and she did not claim. I'll have to check the specifics on it. Right now, I agree that she shouldn't have to claim at L-4. Back then, I think she should have claimed, and I don't fault people for harassing her over not doing so.
12. Related to 11.