Mini 749 - Antarctic Mafia [Game Over]

[na85]

Na85: Yea, that would've been more helpful. Still, with the join date it's fairly safe to assume that she's rather new to the game. Though it's duly noted that assuming about people's skill levels is quite dangerous. So Mizz, here's hoping you catch on quickly for this bunch, or at least not hold back quite so much if you know more than you let on.

I'm not saying we should all jump on and lynch her just because she's new, far from it.

My point was simply to make sure people don't give her a pass just because she's new and acts innocently naive (if it is indeed an act).

I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.

ZEEnon - 3 (Nuwen, Mizz.Mafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro)
Nuwen - 1 (ZEEnon)
Fishythefish - 2 (JereIC, pacman281292)
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 2 (DraketheFake, freeko)
Light-kun - 1 (na85)
freeko - 1 (Fishythefish)

Not Voting - Amished, Light-kun

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

-Mod

(Vote Count accurate as of Post 144)

[na85]

The cow thing was approximately 1/8th of my post's point and was generally tongue in cheek.

Take note, kids, this is what a weeaboo looks like when he backpedals. My vote's staying on you, douchebag.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't owe you anything, LK. Not that I actually thought there was anything worth responding to here, but if you insist on asking for my thoughts then I'll give them.

And finally, you're thinking far too linearly. Sure it puts more pressure on ZEE, but it also puts more pressure on the rest of the town.

If

we lynch ZEE and

if

he flips scum then perhaps someone flying in on his behalf is a scum partner;

if

he flips town then the people finishing off the wagon need a longer look. Votes are the most useful tool the town has and we shouldn't be afraid to use them.

False.

Danny, if a person flips town, especially on day one, the people voting that person from the random voting stage, without validating their reasons for keeping their votes on, and the fourth or fifth vote* are most likely to contain mafia. The hammer is only suspect if it appears to exist solely for the purpose of ending day or if it come unprovoked or against the request made by the town or a player to not hammer yet.

* See Jeep's (I think it's his) article on finding mafia.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this; who needs to be analyzed depends on the context of the situation. However, I think making a blanket statement like "4th or 5th people in a vote string are most likely to be scum" and then using it in actual game analysis is a terrible idea. It tells scum how to act to avoid suspicion, don't be the 4th or 5th vote.

If a lynchee flips town then the people who need to be analyzed on the wagon are any RVS voters who didn't confirm their vote with valid reasoning, anyone else who appears to simply be jumping on a wagon with sub-standard logic, and dubious hammers.

Wouldnt a better play have been to just ignore it?

I agree. Cute logic battles are fun, but shouldn't take precedence over actual scum-hunting. If you're retorting simply to retort, you're at best creating spurious fluff that convolutes the game and detracts attention away from actual tells. Worse still, this distraction can be interpreted as an anti-town attempt to disrupt focus.

Conceded and apologies to the town for the distracting post in that case. However I'd like to remind the town that mine was the response to an equally distracting and useless insult from Drake. I'd hate for him not to get his credit for his part in this fiasco.

Blaming someone else for your distracting play is scummy. This is noted. Also noted is that you fail to actually contribute in this post, and your circular logic from the other pages doesn't help your case.

A) I took the blame for my part in the action.
B) I was not the only one involved, but felt Drake's role in the incident was being overlooked because I was around and willing to talk about the issue. I don't feel I should be indicted simply for posting a lot and I don't believe someone should be given a pass for not being around.
C) How is this post not helpful? If I'm scum I'm either early bussing or trying to frame an innocent. If I'm town I'm showing a potential trap set by scum or maybe it's one big misunderstanding. If I'm killed in some fashion or cleared by a cop then it provides you a wealth of information about my relationship with Drake. It might not be useful this second, but long term it's plenty useful if you know how to use it.
D) The circular logic thing is a tired argument at this point, either you believe me that I was making a joke responding to a joking insult or you're

an idiot

convinced that I'm an idiot because only an idiot would've made that post in seriousness.

LK, you had no problem joining in with the parade of calling my tongue-in-cheek "circular logic" post unhelpful at best. Yet, later you unhelpfully bait na85 in a "tongue-in-cheek" name-calling move. Hypocrisy? Looks like it from here.

[freeko]

I will say this, (since in the real world I am a referee/umpire for a few sports). Generally speaking its not the first punch that is seen, but the reaction to it that draws the attention. This is why it really would have been better for you to just ignore that whole thing and move on. I guess a different way to put it would be this. Who is more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

Of course it would be stupid for anyone not to remember both parties involved. The problem is that there really isnt much that can be done about it now until there is more information revealed later in the game. Dont worry though, I am also taking note of the na85 + light-kun battle that is going on as well.

The circular logic thing is a tired argument at this point,...

I like how you use circular logic to play it off. Do you know how to do anything that doesnt end up running everyone else around in circles?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I will say this, (since in the real world I am a referee/umpire for a few sports). Generally speaking its not the first punch that is seen, but the reaction to it that draws the attention. This is why it really would have been better for you to just ignore that whole thing and move on.

Is this why you insist on ignoring all my rebuttals and pieces of evidence against you? Because if you "punch" back then you're drawing attention to damning evidence and rebuttals that leave you standing on imaginary evidence?

[freeko]

Here you go again. Trying yet again to drag someone else down with you. Enough is enough. Move on to doing something that might be productive to helping the town already.

Or is it your objective to be the first person to piss everyone off this game?

[na85]

I am also taking note of the na85 + light-kun battle that is going on as well.

Thoughts?

[freeko]

Its more of a reference point to go back to later in the game if one of you are dead and the other still alive. For now its of little use, as it looks like it is just pointless mudslinging.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Here you go again. Trying yet again to drag someone else down with you. Enough is enough. Move on to doing something that might be productive to helping the town already.

Or is it your objective to be the first person to piss everyone off this game?

Watch this everybody.

Of course. Much to no one's surprise you simply evade the point at hand. I've Given you chance after chance to repond to my accusations and arguments in a fair fashion, because I believe that's best for the town, but you seem to have absolutely no interest in open dialogue and merely continue to parrot the same tired lines. Ultimately, your unwillingness or inability to defend yourself and your points leads me to one course of action. So...

Unvote

Vote: Freeko

I'm still not comfortable with ZEEnon and still tend to think he's scum, but at this juncture I'm much more confident in freeko being scum.

[Mizz.Mafia]

man, u guys are mean. and yes, im actually a very emotional person.. and im getting hurt very easily from these games. T-T im not... capable?.. and im also quiting all my other games.. so, im practically quiting mafiascum.. T-T

how do you delete my account?

well~~ its been fun guys T-T but i feel like crying playing mafia scumm with you boys
++ its been really fun cyaa~~

[Fishythefish]

Light-kun, in your percentages, Amished and I follow your two explained suspects by a mere couple of percents, at 6% clear of the approximate baseline. You haven't mentioned either of our names yet, and we happen to be two of the very few other players who have criticised you. Can you explain your suspicions?

I don't like this from DDD:

Wouldnt a better play have been to just ignore it?

I agree. Cute logic battles are fun, but shouldn't take precedence over actual scum-hunting. If you're retorting simply to retort, you're at best creating spurious fluff that convolutes the game and detracts attention away from actual tells. Worse still, this distraction can be interpreted as an anti-town attempt to disrupt focus.

Conceded and apologies to the town for the distracting post in that case. However I'd like to remind the town that mine was the response to an equally distracting and useless insult from Drake. I'd hate for him not to get his credit for his part in this fiasco.

Blaming someone else for your distracting play is scummy. This is noted. Also noted is that you fail to actually contribute in this post, and your circular logic from the other pages doesn't help your case.

A) I took the blame for my part in the action.
B) I was not the only one involved, but felt Drake's role in the incident was being overlooked because I was around and willing to talk about the issue. I don't feel I should be indicted simply for posting a lot and I don't believe someone should be given a pass for not being around.

C) How is this post not helpful? If I'm scum I'm either early bussing or trying to frame an innocent. If I'm town I'm showing a potential trap set by scum or maybe it's one big misunderstanding. If I'm killed in some fashion or cleared by a cop then it provides you a wealth of information about my relationship with Drake. It might not be useful this second, but long term it's plenty useful if you know how to use it.

D) The circular logic thing is a tired argument at this point, either you believe me that I was making a joke responding to a joking insult or you're

an idiot

convinced that I'm an idiot because only an idiot would've made that post in seriousness.

LK, you had no problem joining in with the parade of calling my tongue-in-cheek "circular logic" post unhelpful at best. Yet, later you unhelpfully bait na85 in a "tongue-in-cheek" name-calling move. Hypocrisy? Looks like it from here.

My problem is with the bold bit (my bold). I'm not saying, as L-k seems to imply, that every post has to provide new information- there is nothing wrong with response and it's often appropriate to acknowledge other people's arguments and/or your mistakes. However, it is a bit of a stretch to say that a post is useful because in the overall context it can be used to create links between you and drake- townies don't need to conciously create or not create links, and this should not be your intention while voting.

On the other hand, I agree that the "circular logic" post has been done to death, if not further.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

My problem is with the bold bit (my bold). I'm not saying, as L-k seems to imply, that every post has to provide new information- there is nothing wrong with response and it's often appropriate to acknowledge other people's arguments and/or your mistakes. However, it is a bit of a stretch to say that a post is useful because in the overall context it can be used to create links between you and drake- townies don't need to conciously create or not create links, and this should not be your intention while voting.

Cutting down on the quote pyramid...

1) Did my post supply you with more information for the future?
2) Does it not help the town to have more information?

You say the town doesn’t need to purposefully create links and maybe it’s true, but does it hurt the town to do so? I don’t think so; I think the more information provided the better.

I think you're most bothered by my transparency because it is a bit unconventional. However, as I’ve noted before I think it’s an asset to the town, not a detriment. Scum have to lie and deceive to win the game, the town need to uncover the truth, if I don’t worry about appearances and simply present the facts as I see them then the town will benefit from one less layer of bullshit to cut through.

[freeko]

DDD, why do you keep constantly trying to quanitfy your actions?

[orangepenguin]

Mizz.Mafia has requested replacement. Searching for one.

[DraketheFake]

I'm still not comfortable with ZEEnon and still tend to think he's scum, but at this juncture I'm much more confident in freeko being scum.

You know, I'm still not sure I see where you made a cogent argument for thinking that ZEEnon is scum (but then, it's been a while since I went back and re-read the post that started off "Most terrible play is town play," so I 'm sure you transitioned into it somehow or another). Your insistence that you still think he's scum is way more suspicious here than the fact that you're voting for someone voting for you, and the fact that you seem to feel the need to justify jumping off your initial suspect gives away that you're worried about it.

Take note, kids, this is what a weeaboo looks like when he backpedals. My vote's staying on you, douchebag.

I'll give you your first response rant because Light-kun overstepped his bounds, but if he got under your skin to the point where you can't rationally analyze his behavior anymore then you're going to be a big burden to this town. Be the bigger person, it's way more satisfying I promise.

That said I see this less as backpedaling and more as him - again - misconstruing the problem other people had with his response to you.

DDD, why do you keep constantly trying to quanitfy your actions?

Because he's right in the sense that the more information the town has to go on, the better?

That said:

C) How is this post not helpful? If I'm scum I'm either early bussing or trying to frame an innocent. If I'm town I'm showing a potential trap set by scum or maybe it's one big misunderstanding. If I'm killed in some fashion or cleared by a cop then it provides you a wealth of information about my relationship with Drake. It might not be useful this second, but long term it's plenty useful if you know how to use it.

Like Fishy, I dislike this part of this bigger post. I dislike it especially in light of this:

Scum have to lie and deceive to win the game, the town need to uncover the truth, if I don’t worry about appearances and simply present the facts as I see them then the town will benefit from one less layer of bullshit to cut through.

This isn't really what you were saying in Point C, now is it? The whole "If I'm blah then blah" is so much WIFOM and a not-so-subtle implication that I should be lynched if you're a townie, which is not pro-town behavior. Yes, scum have to lie and deceive to win the game, part of which is often that scum need to create false links between players in order to avoid responsibility for being on the wagons of lynched townies - and around and around it goes.

[Light-kun]

LK, you had no problem joining in with the parade of calling my tongue-in-cheek "circular logic" post unhelpful at best. Yet, later you unhelpfully bait na85 in a "tongue-in-cheek" name-calling move. Hypocrisy? Looks like it from here.

No, your tongue in cheekiness is fine. Your sarcastic jest with DtF is fine. However, your post seems to be one designed with the sole person of making yourself look better by pointing out to town that someone else is doing the same thing.

Dont worry though, I am also taking note of the na85 + light-kun battle that is going on as well.

The circular logic thing is a tired argument at this point,...

I like how you use circular logic to play it off. Do you know how to do anything that doesnt end up running everyone else around in circles?

First: There is now Cow/Light-kun argument. Did I miss this or did I make one comment on Cow and Cow was rubbed the wrong and I dropped it? Did cow decide to jab back? How is that even note worthy? Still, I didn't really respond for this.

Second: I agree.

Light-kun, in your percentages, Amished and I follow your two explained suspects by a mere couple of percents, at 6% clear of the approximate baseline. You haven't mentioned either of our names yet, and we happen to be two of the very few other players who have criticised you. Can you explain your suspicions?

Fish, I will only respond to you at the moment: You seem to have indicated, either subconsciously or unintentionally, something that I feel should be considered a bit of an assumption. It could, also, be a jest, but this mark is one of the few telling comments I've seen. I'm not going to comment on it just yet as I need to reread that post to decide and look at your play in isolation.

Cutting down on the quote pyramid...

1) Did my post supply you with more information for the future?
2) Does it not help the town to have more information?

You say the town doesn’t need to purposefully create links and maybe it’s true, but does it hurt the town to do so? I don’t think so; I think the more information provided the better.

I think you're most bothered by my transparency because it is a bit unconventional. However, as I’ve noted before I think it’s an asset to the town, not a detriment. Scum have to lie and deceive to win the game, the town need to uncover the truth, if I don’t worry about appearances and simply present the facts as I see them then the town will benefit from one less layer of bullshit to cut through.

Not sure why, but I agree with Freeko, but too extend, I always get a really defensive vibe from your posts....

This bothers me.

[Amished]

I'm definitely with everybody else concerning DDD. If you're town, forming links to anybody (other than perhaps a setup that includes miller, though that's not specifically town) is a bad idea. First off, you wouldn't know anybody else's alignment, so you could very well be buddying with either town or scum, and there's no way for you to know. However, if you're scum, you'd know the alignment of those you're forming connections with, and talking about it leads to WIFOM. The way I see it, neither course of action is especially helpful nor town friendly. Regarding DDD's #1 (supply info):

Like I said above, you could be arguing heavily against fellow town and you wouldn't know it at this point, so any "information" that could be gleaned from how you act towards him is worthless. As a counter point, if he turns out town (cleared or whatever else you brought up) would that instantly make you scum? It appears you're trying to make definite points where there aren't any to be made.

I was also curious at your percentages, L-k, and now with your response to Fish, I assume now that I assumed something I shouldn't have. Also, just as a personal note, I think you're one of the most disrespectful people I've had the agony of reading content from. The fact that you're still insulting him by calling him "cow" instead of even Na (which is shorter, and also doesn't have numbers to assault your poor typing fingers or sensibilities) indicates to me that you have a definite problem with him, and hope to continue your feud by ostensibly ignoring and insulting him anyway.

[Fishythefish]

Fish, I will only respond to you at the moment: You seem to have indicated, either subconsciously or unintentionally, something that I feel should be considered a bit of an assumption. It could, also, be a jest, but this mark is one of the few telling comments I've seen. I'm not going to comment on it just yet as I need to reread that post to decide and look at your play in isolation.

How exciting for me, I can't wait . If this helps: my remark was not a jest, except to some extent the accusation of omgus. I feel that fairly large differences between players' scumminess need explaining- particularly when the differences between players you have criticised repeatedly and players you have never mentioned is tiny. I would like such an explanation soon.

Cutting down on the quote pyramid...

1) Did my post supply you with more information for the future?
2) Does it not help the town to have more information?

You say the town doesn’t need to purposefully create links and maybe it’s true, but does it hurt the town to do so? I don’t think so; I think the more information provided the better.

I think you're most bothered by my transparency because it is a bit unconventional. However, as I’ve noted before I think it’s an asset to the town, not a detriment. Scum have to lie and deceive to win the game, the town need to uncover the truth, if I don’t worry about appearances and simply present the facts as I see them then the town will benefit from one less layer of bullshit to cut through.

1) Excellent quote pyramid culling.
2) Transparency is excellent. I'm not suggesting you should conciously avoid making links to other players- however, you suggested this making such links was the

purpose

of your post- and townies don't need to conciously create links. Indeed, by artificially taking the decision to make a link, you remove the usefulness of the link- it will no longer be your natural response to a player. The position of "my post was useful because it creates links" doesn't explain you posting it in the first place. Also, as Amished says, links at this stage are only really useful if it's scum (or other informed players) making them- and any purposeful link would be drowned by WIFOM

This probably doesn't need saying, but at this point it's fairly certain Mizz_Mafia was entirely genuine, and that Mizz_Mafia's replacement should be treated as if she never existed.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, why do you keep constantly trying to quanitfy your actions?

Because my actions are being misinterpreted. I realize my play style is a bit unconventional and I think that's the cause of much of the suspicion on me. I'm trying to explain my meta so that I can be judged on that and not on someone elses.

I always get a really defensive vibe from your posts....

That's because a large portion of my posts have been defensive in nature. People object to something I say, I look at my post again to make sure I'm saying what I want to say and either find the fault in my own post or try to explain why the person is wrong in their view.

Again, maybe other people prefer to ignore these things in the hopes that they go away, but that's simply not my style.

[DraketheFake]

I realize my play style is a bit unconventional and I think that's the cause of much of the suspicion on me.

How do you mean? I see nothing at all unconventional about your play.

[pacman281292]

/me sits stunned at pacman's request. Are you really asking them to not post everything that's on their mind just cause you don't feel like you can read for more than ~ 20 minutes? Even back when pacman was born there were books and stuff that people would read hours at a time, so not learning from when you (or your avatar) were a kid isn't an excuse.

Na85: Yea, that would've been more helpful. Still, with the join date it's fairly safe to assume that she's rather new to the game. Though it's duly noted that assuming about people's skill levels is quite dangerous. So Mizz, here's hoping you catch on quickly for this bunch, or at least not hold back quite so much if you know more than you let on.

Well: the problem on "quote walls" is that LIKE THE 80% OF ITS CONTENT is just quotes. That creates extra space, extra read, and its annoying. Also, it's usually a sign of the beginning of a "bickering war", and that really hurts.

[na85]

1) Did my post supply you with more information for the future?
2) Does it not help the town to have more information?

1) Not really, no
2) Not really, no

You say the town doesn’t need to purposefully create links and maybe it’s true, but does it hurt the town to do so? I don’t think so; I think the more information provided the better.

What's distracting about town trying to create links is that scum will also try to create links; either to set up a mis-lynch later on or to appear innocent by association.

[na85]

DDD, why do you keep constantly trying to quanitfy your actions?

Can you clarify?

Quantify means to put a numeric value to something. I don't really see him doing that.

[na85]

Mizz.Mafia has requested replacement. Searching for one.

Hmm, kinda feel bad.

[na85]

Mizz_Mafia's replacement should be treated as if she never existed.

You think so? I wouldn't go so far as to say that.

I think you should judge a role by all the players who play it.