Mini 763 - Carnival Mafia - Game Over

[Nocmen]

Why vote for longer name players? To me, its just much more of a pain in the ass to get to type.
And by the way, is anyone hungry?

[Nocmen]

OK. Since long random stages piss me off, and we have nearly a page already (yes, I'm that impatient) let's kick off the real discussion.

@Nocmen:

And by the way, is anyone hungry?

Explain this please. We have been warned that this game has bastard-ish elements in it and I would like to know if this is one of them.

Nothing related to the game. I just happened to make that post before I was getting lunch, and all I could think about was getting food in my mouth.

[Nocmen]

I agree with what Kairyuu said about disliking random vote stages. I dislike them as well, they usually cause stagnation, and while some may say they can do well to find out about certain characteristics of players, I think the same can be said if one just takes it the same and starts questioning the other players.

Though Kairyuu, why would you say you dislike long random phases when just a few posts earlier, you went with the same kind of random votes you dislike?

[Nocmen]

Hi.
*Blows up balloon animal and gives to nocmen*
Eat this!

Is there something you're trying to say in this post?

I agree with what Kairyuu said about disliking random vote stages. I dislike them as well, they usually cause stagnation, and while some may say they can do well to find out about certain characteristics of players, I think the same can be said if one just takes it the same and starts questioning the other players.

Though Kairyuu, why would you say you dislike long random phases when just a few posts earlier, you went with the same kind of random votes you dislike?

Well, what do you suggest then to start moving the game instead of the rvs?

Just start asking questions, like the way me and Kairyuu have done. Do you have a problem with questions? I can't move into a full discussion phase right away, but I can do what I want to do to nudge us towards that path.

[Nocmen]

I'm going for the Siamese twin.

Explain.

A random comment to follow up on the bearded lady. A Siamese twin was the first thing to come to mind regarding a carnivale. Other than evil clowns. The comment was before I read the flavor opening though, where it seems the entire freakshow is gone and killed. Makes for an interesting opening of the game, and difficult to see what we're up against.

For now I'll

Unvote. Vote: Datadanne.

I kinda dislike double posts. If it were meaningful posts I could live with it, but at the moment his comments on this game seem a bit erratic.

So you're saying that all double posts that don't have meaning are likely bad and warrant a vote? Double posts are many times just neccessary, due to our inability to edit posts. And it's the random stage, as much as I dislike them, I know people will still make random posts that may mean nothing.

@all: All things considered, I am going to

vote: Datadanne

. He seems to be attempting to extend the random stage when others are actually asking questions and trying to move us out of it. I've seen this behavior only once before, and it was used by scum (our mod was in that game, so he may remember too).

I understand the reasoning for your vote fine. However, I really dislike that way you say that you've seen behavior like that before. While I agree with that extending random stage seems like a possible scum tactic, you're comment seems like you're really trying to find justification for a vote like that.

I'm seeing both of these votes as having very poor justification and reasoning.

[Nocmen]

In the same vein as Kairyuu,

unvote

.

Just to contribute my thoughts, here goes:

I do agree that prolonging random stages is not a desirable thing to do, but the initial stage itself is important to the game. Although, I don't really think that Datadanne is consciously making an attempt at prolonging said stage, because it doesn't seem forced. It's probably just their personality type, and I don't think that it's near enough ground to lynch or vote.

And, on the other side of this argument, I don't think that Kairyuu or any of the other Datadanne instigators are acting particularly scummy either, just taking him a little too seriously.

Since it's only the first day or two of playing, accusing anyone of lurking is a bit farfetched at the moment, but I think that would be the easiest thing for scum to do in this situation.

So, to prevent that, I request that everyone weigh in (if you haven't already) on the Datadanne situation and your views on random voting. Let's get this ball

really

rolling, peeps. :p

I've pretty much said what I've wanted to regarding Datadanne, he made his posts in the random vote stage, and I'll keep that in mind later on, I'm not going to lunge for voting people now, but I do now know some of the voting style of the players. I'm not concerned with Datadanne at all, I'm focusing right now on just trying to find out more about those voting for him.

@Nocmen:

I understand the reasoning for your vote fine. However, I really dislike that way you say that you've seen behavior like that before. While I agree with that extending random stage seems like a possible scum tactic, you're comment seems like you're really trying to find justification for a vote like that.

That's just my style. If I've seen something before I tend to try to point that out to show where I got my reasoning from. I can link completed games where I've done it if you'd like.

I'm seeing both of these votes as having very poor justification and reasoning.

And that's your prerogative, but as you said yourself, it's not really possible to push us immediately into full fledged discussion mode where the larger cases come into play without a springboard. I see this little transition period as that springboard.

Oh, I'm not doubting you at all, I'm just saying that it seems to me you are making a stretch for your justification. And maybe I am doing this in order to jump start conversation. Instead of worrying about random votes, I'd rather ask about the votes that seem less random, like yours and Weyouns.

And I have no problem with Chief trying to get discussion going on Datadanne. It seems justified, I agree with his statement that it's always good to get as many players commenting and voicing their opinions on as many events that occur. At this point, it means less than in the future though, where events like that may occur as a means of distracting our attention.

Essentially, here is where I am right now.
I will find people scummy for trying to prolong random stage. I will suspect you if you start screwing around and getting us off topic.
I will not give up a hunch I have because someone trys to get us talking about something else, like the way Chief wants us to talk about Datadanne.
I'm very curious at the connections that seem to be forming, especially centered around Chief.

So, I pose a drastic action early on here:

Vote: ChiefSkye4

[Nocmen]

And I have no problem with Chief trying to get discussion going on Datadanne. It seems justified, I agree with his statement that it's always good to get as many players commenting and voicing their opinions on as many events that occur. At this point, it means less than in the future though, where events like that may occur as a means of distracting our attention.

...

I will not give up a hunch I have because someone trys to get us talking about something else, like the way Chief wants us to talk about Datadanne.
I'm very curious at the connections that seem to be forming, especially centered around Chief.

So, I pose a drastic action early on here:

Vote: ChiefSkye4

You first say you have no problem with me stimulating discussion on Datadanne, then you vote me for it? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Just wondering, what do you mean by "...someone tries to get us talking about something else, like the way Chief wants us to talk about Datadanne..."? Am I missing something, or is he, essentially, the only person (besides myself, as of late), we were having a serious discussion about? I didn't change the subject to or from him, I just put in my two cents on

the [then] current subject

.

No, I'm wanting to start a possible wagon on you for other reasons. If I explain it right now it would ruin the whole point of it.

[Nocmen]

Since only about 4 of us out of 11 are contributing, or saying anything at all, rather, I feel that our viewpoints are limitted, and that we're likely to get stuck in a rut.

I think you're not realizing that very little time has occured since the start of this game and now. You're assuming that no one else is going to post without being prompted to. What about people going away for weekends? Ones that don't necessarily check MS every day?

It's way too early IMO to go after players for not posting. Say, Tuesday/Wednesday, maybe, but not yet.

[Nocmen]

So wait...Kairyuu, what is this list of games supposed to represent? What events, issues, etc? All I see is a list of links.

As for DDD's vote, it seems to me that he is voting him for being just a bad player. Which seems like a pretty pointless lynch to me.

[Nocmen]

Is there something you're trying to say in this post?

No, Not yet.

What about people going away for weekends?

The mod is a bastard....

I've decided that a policy lynch of Datadanne is the best way to approach day one. To try and answer any questions that will assuredly arise...

Well, Aren´t you a bastard....

and an OMGUS from datadanne

You are correct.

Vote:DDD

probably some flak

No, Im coming after you in a Hot Air Balloon!
*Fires AA-Guns at DDD from the HAB*

I can't tell if you're playing stupid, have a PR, or are trying to prove a point to DD From this post.
You do realize my weekend comment was not directed at anything the mod said or did, unless, are you trying to say something indirectly from the response to my quote?

[Nocmen]

My first game (out of three) on the site had scum (my partner) lynched on Day 1 due to logic. Ergo, it is plausible and calling for a policy lynch on page 3 seems like you are needlessly trying to end discussion. Datadanne being pointlessly lynched as a powerrole in other games further supports why we should not policy lynch him for no real reason at this point. Doing so could seriously derail town's chances of winning if he is some sort of PR (no need to discuss this further btw) or even VT.

And again a sample size of three doesn't get close to proving anything. I never said it was impossible to find scum on day one, but that statistically doing so is no better and quite possibly worse than random chance.

Furthermore, I am not trying to end discussion as I noted in point four, don't misrepresent what I'm trying to do. We should try to squeeze as much information out of the day as possible, but wait for appropriate context for that information.

And Datadanne wasn't pointlessly lynched in the other games, he was lynched in them because his play is virulently anti-town period (see the game (N725) where he claimed doc, then proceeded to claim vanilla, hammered another townie, claimed cop, and then claimed either vanilla or doc again, I forget, before being lynched). Since he's going to provide us no useful information and his play seems to be anti-town regardless of whether he's scum or not it's easier to cut that line of discussion off at the legs.

I move that we focus on finding

other

scum and leave the data situation until we have more substantial evidence.

Slip of the toungue? Perhaps. But seems to indicate that datadanne is in fact scum if we're hunting for other scum and the only way that Baltar would know that is if he is scum as well.

This makes little sense to me. You mention past examples from his other games, and yet you seem to ignore all other past game references that are made by other players. So because of that, I'm going to go the same way and ignore your use of past games as a reason to vote for Datadanne. So basically, using the same logic you are, you're going and pushing a policy lynch on Datadanne for reasons which could be applied to any other players. So why not go and "policy lynch" you? What about Chief? Myself? The others?

You say that Datadanne's actions may be the same as they were before. So can I use the same logic for saying that they may be different? That playstyles may be different depending on faction? That this is a theme game, closed, so we don't know what tricks are in the roles?

You also say this:

I'm not encouraging a bandwagon on datadanne, I'm encouraging he be lynched without a bandwagon because a datadanne bandwagon will provide no information and that we spend the rest of the day on more productive topics of discussion.

You do realize that bandwagons can be very valuable sources of information? Right now you're acting as if you are ready to shut down all uses of a possible bandwagon in the future, saying it will have no information.

I'm under the assumption that in Mafia heaps of information can be gained from who votes who, why, when, etc. Mostly stuff you get from investigating bandwagons. To me, this is more important source of information than any policy lynch.

[Nocmen]

How do we decide when we get rid of pseudo votes and end the day? Why can't we just proceed the day on normally, looking at each post normally, and then end up voting for Datadanne (not saying I'm promoting that, I'm just making another way of doing things DDD's way).

I am well aware of the fact that we can't be failsafe, hell we can barely be certain about any lynch. But there are other possibilities besides voting for someone you think would damage the town. I try and take each game on its own little basis, leaving and ignoring personal vendettas and criticisms of play style to the game they occur in. I agree that Datadanne hasn't been too helpful, but because I'm only looking at this game, I'm now in a guessing game with the mod, one that I'm not going to try and play right now.

This game is built around a town working together and winning on it's own, not you making "safeguards", because then it sounds like you're working on your own.

Mafia is not a game of statistics past the balancing done by the mod. It is about numbers, but only the ones that allow the town to win.

[Nocmen]

OK DDD, I understand what you are saying about players like that being annoying. I just finished a game with zwet and he cost the town a win because I subbed in at lylo and he looked the scummiest. He was lynched and Mafia got an easy win. I totally understand that it is frustrating, but in a 12 player game I (and it seems most of the other players) feel that policy lynching, disguised as random lynching, is truly the sub-optimal strategy.

Also, we have a number of players not even discussing at this point. I think they need to make some substantial posts in the very near future.

I agree with this completely. I do not want anyone lynched without hearing from every single person first.

[Nocmen]

I will find people scummy for trying to prolong random stage. I will suspect you if you start screwing around and getting us off topic.

This is lacking. At the point where someone actually becomes clearly evasive of questions or is active lurking/clearly not participating it should be obvious to most if not all. You telling us this is nothing new and in fact looks like you're trying to give yourself pre-emptive justification for pouncing on the smallest transgression people may make.

It may be lacking, but did I take advantage of that? Did I make arguments for that? I was mostly saying it to mention the reason why people could suspect Datadanne for the posts he made. I have a playstyle where I'm going to be pretty damn open. I'm not afraid to say what I see scummy, and why, regardless if I vote for them then or not.

I will not give up a hunch I have because someone trys to get us talking about something else, like the way Chief wants us to talk about Datadanne.
I'm very curious at the connections that seem to be forming, especially centered around Chief.

What's wrong with talking about Datadynne, especially when she was defending him? What exactly piques your curiosity about these "connections" surrounding Chief?

When I see someone going "hey guys lets talk about *topic/person*", I have a instinct to interpret it as a connection between two players, like I did. A connection like trying to force a bussing of a partner to look innocent, or trying to divert attention away from a partner who is starting to look guilty.

And once again Datadanne continues with his random posting, adding nothing of interest to help us out.

VP's possible slip - I don't know, I'm kind of intrigued by this a bit. If you look at the flavor, it mentions a Joker and a Puppeteer going after each other. To me, I could see them both as possible anti-town factions. I think that VP has a good chance of being one of these, and knows something much more than the rest of us.

Unvote, Vote: VP Baltar

[Nocmen]

Edit, crossposted:

unvote

and

vote: Nocmen

This is a bit of outguessing the mod, but I think you may have just slipped up big time.

How do you believe I've slipped up? I'm merely going based off of the flavor in the first post as a logical assumption as to how the roles in this game are distributed. The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

I also like the irony of how you say you rarely change your vote, and you move it twice right after saying that.

[Nocmen]

@Nocmen:

How do you believe I've slipped up?

You're speculating about what the scum are, which means you have a different win con than I do, because mine specifies where in the theme the scum fit.

The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

I agree about the single scumgroup (more role info) but VP's mistake looks if anything like a SK who accidentally assumed he was the only scum. However, role info still points to a single scum faction.

I also like the irony of how you say you rarely change your vote, and you move it twice right after saying that.

Yeah. Can't argue there. I couldn't just ignore such a major slip though, now could I?

So wait...you're using role info...to go after me, beause you think I slipped talking about someone else slipping up?

I don't even know what to say.

[Nocmen]

I actually think we should go straight to being explicit about this:

Nocmen, please read the last paragraph of your post 108 and tell me if you notice any inconsistencies between it and your role pm. No-one else answer this please.

Then, Shinnen, after Nocmen has, please do the same.

I don't see how the two can be directly compared to each other, one is my role pm that states my win condition, and my last paragraph mentioned that I think there are two anti-town factions/persons, neither of which I'm a part of or am.

[Nocmen]

Unvote

He seems a whole lot more valuable to the game than DD. His first analysises (i'm sure that's not the right plural, but okay) seemed coherent and helpful for town.

Vote: Grimmy

This has to do with lixyl's last (and about only) post. Just voting without reason, whahuh? So Grimmy: welcome to the game and looking forward for reasons not to vote you.

So you're going to vote someone because they placed votes around because they didn't have any time to commit to the game?

ok, some thoughts.

Unvote

I can almost sorta kinda understand why this vote occured...

no wait...never mind...that gut feeling was just gas...

however, I almost feel bad for doing this, as I know how hard it is to replace into a game where your predecesor left you in a hole, but

Vote: Shanba

I think your predecessor gave away his scum alignment, and I also think that the driving force behind your case on cheif is to get attention away from yourself by posting a very logical (and well written) case on someone else.

You posted a strong argument, but something tells me that it was to draw attention away from the mistakes your pred. made.

why shouldn't I vote for you?

Cause im fun to be around and the ORIGINAL Weyoun wouldn't have voted me right off the bat! ;p

MY pred.'s post was probably just put in there to try to add something to the game when RL was beating the ***** out of him/her. I know the feeling, been there, done that, doing it tomorrow!. thats why that vote probablty came out that way.

Grimmy
remembers the good times with the original weyoun...and laughs about the better times we were too drunk to remember...ah...second grade ruled!

I don't know if Shanba's predecessor did something like that, but I have a feeling that either him or Chief is scum.

[Nocmen]

How do you believe I've slipped up? I'm merely going based off of the flavor in the first post as a logical assumption as to how the roles in this game are distributed. The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

And then...

I actually think we should go straight to being explicit about this:

Nocmen, please read the last paragraph of your post 108 and tell me if you notice any inconsistencies between it and your role pm. No-one else answer this please.

I don't see how the two can be directly compared to each other, one is my role pm that states my win condition, and my last paragraph mentioned that I think there are two anti-town factions/persons, neither of which I'm a part of or am.

Seeing all this Nocmen controversy shtuff, I went back and reread his posts. Running the risk of repeating someone else's question (oh well lol), why did you say one scum group and then, two posts later, admit your "role PM" (questionable legitimacy) said two?

I did not say my role PM said anything about two factions. I said my paragraph did mention the possibility of two anti-town factions. I'm not seeing any mention of saying that my role PM has anything about two anti-town factions. As for why I mentioned nothing about my win condition, I've been under the assumption that paraphrasing/saying win condition has always been the equivalent of quoting mod PMs, because of how easy it is to make complications with confirming induviduals.

[Nocmen]

All of the mods I've seen prohibit quoting, but allow paraphrasing.

However, the win condition is a bit tricky. Because sometimes, it allows for an auto confirmation that causes a bunch of issues.

But I'm not going to get bogged down with rules/something that belongs in MD outside of the game.

I'm just saying that a vote on me because I'm not going to post my win condition is craplogic, as the win condition being posted is a delicate piece of information.

[Nocmen]

Scum. Sure. My role says I'm not after scum.
I'm sure that in a possible bastardized game, there may be factions not mentioned in PMs.
Hasn't there been discussion about whether an SK in a game should affect townie role PMs from being "You win when all scum are killed" or "You win when all threats to the town are dead"?
I could not really express more information with going into gray territory of rules that could get me modkilled.

[Nocmen]

Chief...that doesn't add up with what information I have. You seem to have...different info.

[Nocmen]

Fine, you want a claim?

I'm a popcorn vendor. I make money based on how much the carnival makes. I'm not sure what I do with money, or if it does anything, but I know that the puppeteer is trying to stop me from making money. I have no abilities right now, but I have reason to believe my role may change.

[Nocmen]

Only L-3. Oh well.

unvote

and

vote: ChiefSkye4

Nocmen for tomorrow.

Reasons? Shanba's original argument? Or the win con?

That, as well as the fact that you're initial interactions seemed a bit sketchy on their own. There was just something about how you talked about Datadanne that made me very supicious.

Unvote, Vote: ChiefSkye4

[Nocmen]

I feel uneasy about (two?) scum apparently being caught so easily, especially in light of bastard mod warnings.

ChiefSkye4, can you explain your role's inconsistency with post 4?

also, what do you think of Nocmen currently?

Nocmen, what do you think of ChiefSkye4?

Win con for me. I agree with Shanba, but I don't like using other people's cases.

Like it or not it does seem you are implicitly appealing to others' cases here. If not do you genuinely think CS4 is a better target than Nocmen for the reason you gave?

I've been concerned about Chief's style creeping me a bit out with her posts since the start of page 2, with Datadanne. My suspicion was that either her or Datadanne was scum, because of their actions towards each other, and I'm feeling more confident about Shanba being town since he has replaced in.

I guess it must suck to have your scum team destroyed so early.

HEhe yer except I was only the second to pounce on Nocmen's scummy *censored due to mod warning*-related claim in the first place.

And that's WIFOMy. You could be easily jumping on a scum partners mistake just to try and make your self look more against scum. Though invalid at this point, because I'm not scum.

I will indeed wait for their responses before further engaging with you, but also Nocmen:

but I have reason to believe my role may change.

What is this reason?

Merely the way my role PM is worded and quoted. Though in a bastard game, anything can happen, so I may or may not get something out of this.

[Nocmen]

First things first, let's talk about how awesome I am that I got you people to put me at L-1 in two pages and then got all those votes off me in the same time span. Simply put, I rule.

Simply put that wasn't useful.

Noc: Did you gdet any money last night or did I read your role wrong?

I got no message at all, so I'm assuming I have not.

DDD: Getting to L-1 is nothing to brag about at all.
Why so happy to jump and Vote WLC?

WLC: Why so quick to vote Shanba for that?

[Nocmen]

As much as I hate to do this because I like the way he is playing, I must

vote: Nocmen

. You proved that you were not aligned with the town during D1. Unless you can provide a good reason why we should keep you alive, I think you are the best choice.

On another note, WLC I could run with, but not Shanba. I see no reason to lynch him.

I did not prove anything about being aligned differently than the town. If you don't want to believe and try and push me to a lynch, so be it.

@DDD: Why do you consistently only mention certain things going on in the game? Your last few posts have been short, ask one question, and ignore everything else going on in the game.

@DDD and VP: I asked this before, I want to see all of your reasons for voting WLC.

[Nocmen]

The thing that really shocked me, Shinnen, is that he did see the smiley... and didn't unvote! I just can't fathom...

This.

@Nocmen

I will reprint post 233 since you don't want to look for it:

I approve that message from Danny. Vote WLC

Why should you vote Shanba even though you know he was joking?

Where were you after Chief came under suspicion?

In fact, looking back at the posts, your last post on Day 1 was #142. I made a PBPA of you in post 145 and you never came back the rest of the day to answer or make any contribution to the game whatsoever.

Please read post 145 if you want the PBPA on WLC.

Checked his posting as well and he was active in both War of Heaven II (as he said) and Newbie 760 from the time that he disappeared in this game to the start of day 2.

Actually, I did read that, and I believe I commented on it previously. Mainly I wanted to see if DDD would add anything more, and maybe help me get into what he is thinking.

But yea, that didn't happen.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I'm not liking your logic at all today.

[Nocmen]

Unvote

Vote: Nocmen

L-2, let's get rid of this scum.

Reasons? Besides the fact I'm voting you?

[Nocmen]

Unvote

Vote: Nocmen

L-2, let's get rid of this scum.

Reasons? Besides the fact I'm voting you?

Still asking for a response to this.

[Nocmen]

DDD, why did you switch your vote to Nocmen from WLC?

Because I was voting WLC for basically similar behavior as I had exhibited and that would've been hypocritical. Granted he was a little more dense about it considering he kept his vote on the person after he realized his mistake, but hardly a lynchable offense. Plus you've been wavering all over the place and Empking and Kairyuu seem so insistent and persuasive in their desire to lynch Nocmen which makes that lynch that much more likely to actually happen. All else being equal, I favor being lazy.

So wait, you voted because other people voted me, and you want to go with a lynch that will likely happen quicker?

[Nocmen]

Because Nocmen claimed a mechanic to his role that he has no idea how it works and so far doesn't appear to work at all. Either he's intentionally withholding information or lying about his role, both actions are highly anti-town.

Oh did I now? I don't believe that I had much of that, I said I have a role that could possibly get more powerful, but it hasn't yet.

And now I feel that WLC's vote was perfectly justified. That is the kind of explaination I would like to see from someone such as DDD.

[Nocmen]

I'm asking for a claim from you, DDD.
Youve done too much fishing for claims.
I also want to know, did you get any PM from the mod last night?

[Nocmen]

Nothing new again. I'm as stumped on my role as you guys are.

[Nocmen]

My guess, as much as I hate role fishing: DDD was Shanba's sibling. I think he had a win-condition odd day to kill his sibling, Shanba/Datadanne, and even day he was a jester.
Seem possible?

This is assuming no one else is Shanba's sibling.

[Nocmen]

Right now, I've been gone for a couple days working on a bunch of stuff. Definitely going to catch up this weekend.

I wouldn't mind seeing the other claims, seeing what we have in line with the people. I support a mass claim. I'd like to see Emp or WLC first, if we do it.

[Nocmen]

I'm feeling better with Kairyuu's role and his claim. A scum double voter, IMO, is way too powerful, and I'm feeling a bit confident about his towniness.
Emp's...bothers me a bit. His slip with Shanba's ability, I mean, it's not hard to think about stuff like that.
I see no problem with voting Emp right now, but I really want to hear the other claims before we take him out.

[Nocmen]

Sorry for the double post. I was also thinking about Emp's claim. Being a news reporter is even less believable considering that I don't see what interest a news reporter would have in the Jester and Puppeteers fighting over the carnival. Frankly, that's a better story than the "fluff piece" Emp says he came to the carnival for!

Its not the fight I'm here for. Its the arrival of a large carnival.

Bullshit. It sounds like the carnival's been around for a long, long time.

I'm voting you once the other claims are in, unless one of them gives me a rvery good reason to vote them instead.

[Nocmen]

I'm buying shinnen's claim.
I'll elaborate as soon as we get the final claim.

[Nocmen]

I'll do the vote.

Vote: Empking

I think the vendors are the townies. So that means, I really have no powers.

[Nocmen]

So , the whole thing behind my role...
Yes, when I read the PM, I read the wrong role PM, hence why I confused my win condition. I thus then started making shit up about it, in order to seem like I had a different role, and safe myass. In hindsight, it was a great and yet horrible move, but somehow confirmed myself in the third day.

[Nocmen]

I think you did things pretty well, but yea, I think you may have done the PMs wrong. The fact that two other townies had Vendor roles that sounded a lot like mine made me almost feel certain they were town, unless you had given the scum a fake claim.