Mini 763 - Carnival Mafia - Game Over

[ChiefSkye4]

How do you believe I've slipped up? I'm merely going based off of the flavor in the first post as a logical assumption as to how the roles in this game are distributed. The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

And then...

I actually think we should go straight to being explicit about this:

Nocmen, please read the last paragraph of your post 108 and tell me if you notice any inconsistencies between it and your role pm. No-one else answer this please.

I don't see how the two can be directly compared to each other, one is my role pm that states my win condition, and my last paragraph mentioned that I think there are two anti-town factions/persons, neither of which I'm a part of or am.

Seeing all this Nocmen controversy shtuff, I went back and reread his posts. Running the risk of repeating someone else's question (oh well lol), why did you say one scum group and then, two posts later, admit your "role PM" (questionable legitimacy) said two?

[Nocmen]

How do you believe I've slipped up? I'm merely going based off of the flavor in the first post as a logical assumption as to how the roles in this game are distributed. The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

And then...

I actually think we should go straight to being explicit about this:

Nocmen, please read the last paragraph of your post 108 and tell me if you notice any inconsistencies between it and your role pm. No-one else answer this please.

I don't see how the two can be directly compared to each other, one is my role pm that states my win condition, and my last paragraph mentioned that I think there are two anti-town factions/persons, neither of which I'm a part of or am.

Seeing all this Nocmen controversy shtuff, I went back and reread his posts. Running the risk of repeating someone else's question (oh well lol), why did you say one scum group and then, two posts later, admit your "role PM" (questionable legitimacy) said two?

I did not say my role PM said anything about two factions. I said my paragraph did mention the possibility of two anti-town factions. I'm not seeing any mention of saying that my role PM has anything about two anti-town factions. As for why I mentioned nothing about my win condition, I've been under the assumption that paraphrasing/saying win condition has always been the equivalent of quoting mod PMs, because of how easy it is to make complications with confirming induviduals.

[Kairyuu]

All of the mods I've seen prohibit quoting, but allow paraphrasing.

[Nocmen]

All of the mods I've seen prohibit quoting, but allow paraphrasing.

However, the win condition is a bit tricky. Because sometimes, it allows for an auto confirmation that causes a bunch of issues.

But I'm not going to get bogged down with rules/something that belongs in MD outside of the game.

I'm just saying that a vote on me because I'm not going to post my win condition is craplogic, as the win condition being posted is a delicate piece of information.

[Kairyuu]

I didn't ask for your win con. I inferred based on the fact that you were speculating on where the scum faction fit into the flavor (coincidentally, a trick I pulled in Mini Theme 658: Facedown and Thirsty Mafia, as scum) that you did not have the same win condition as I do, which gives specifics. Therefore, since my win con tells me to kill scum, yours must not, making you scum.

[Nocmen]

Scum. Sure. My role says I'm not after scum.
I'm sure that in a possible bastardized game, there may be factions not mentioned in PMs.
Hasn't there been discussion about whether an SK in a game should affect townie role PMs from being "You win when all scum are killed" or "You win when all threats to the town are dead"?
I could not really express more information with going into gray territory of rules that could get me modkilled.

[VP Baltar]

My role PM is pretty clear as to who town needs to eliminate to win, Nocmen. This is truly damning evidence against you. I had you pegged as town because of you saying this in your first post:

And by the way, is anyone hungry?

Thought it might have been a breadcrumb, but now I'm really starting to believe you either really were making lunch or you were trying to set yourself up for a safeclaim later if you got in trouble.

Scum Nocmen most likely read the opening post of the thread,

I must warn you of the happenings of late: my two best performers are battling for popularity. The Joker and The Puppeteer having been cutthroat, trying to steal each other's fans...

and assumed there were two scum groups against town. I understand you not wanting to quote your pm, fair enough, but you should have been able to state from the town pm that there is only one scum group mentioned, not two as in the flavor of the game opening.

Unvote, Vote:Nocmen

(L-3) I think we could use some more pressure here.

[SilverPhoenix]

The Sixth Votecount

ChiefSkye4 ~ 1

(Shanba)

Shanba ~ 1

(Grimmy)

Debonair Danny DiPietro ~ 1

(Shinnen_no_Me)

Kairyuu ~ 0
Grimmy ~ 1

(WeyounsLastClone)

Nocmen ~ 3

(Kairyuu, ortolan, VP Baltar)

ortolan ~ 0
Shinnen_no_Me ~ 1

(TCold)

VP Baltar ~ 1

(Nocmen)

WeyounsLastClone ~ 0
Not Voting ~

(Debonair Danny DiPietro, ChiefSkye4)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
I am in the process of replacing TCold.

[Grimmy]

I see where nocmen was going with this.

I will NOT be voting Nocmen as I feel he is town.

Im sticking with my vote on Shanba because of her pred.'s actions.

Grimmy

[ortolan]

ortolan - if chiefskye wasn't worth a vote, then I wouldn't be voting her. Duh.

Yer sorry I didn't notice the beginning of your post. Pretty newb of me.

however, I almost feel bad for doing this, as I know how hard it is to replace into a game where your predecesor left you in a hole, but

Vote: Shanba

I think your predecessor gave away his scum alignment, and I also think that the driving force behind your case on cheif is to get attention away from yourself by posting a very logical (and well written) case on someone else.

You posted a strong argument, but something tells me that it was to draw attention away from the mistakes your pred. made.

What did Datadanne do that was scummy?

Seeing all this Nocmen controversy shtuff, I went back and reread his posts. Running the risk of repeating someone else's question (oh well lol), why did you say one scum group and then, two posts later, admit your "role PM" (questionable legitimacy) said two?

Probably irrelevant but this isn't actually what she said.

However, the win condition is a bit tricky. Because sometimes, it allows for an auto confirmation that causes a bunch of issues.

Well, please ask the mod about the extent to which you're allowed to paraphrase your win condition, and then get back to us. Hint: refusing to do this is likely not going to help your cause.

I see where nocmen was going with this.

Nocmen wasn't going anywhere. Nocmen was being attacked for a scummy slip, and flailing.

Let's just clarify, as this is an apparently bastard mod game and all, is everyone else's role pm consistent with what Kairyuu and I etc. have claimed? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[VP Baltar]

Nocmen, could you explain to me why you think that you as town would speculate (and seemingly believe) that there are two scum groups, and yet feel that I, who you believe to be a part of said scum, would not be able to have a similar idea? Why would it be more obvious to town than scum what the setup may or may not be, given that town is the uninformed majority and scum is the informed minority?

[ChiefSkye4]

How do you believe I've slipped up? I'm merely going based off of the flavor in the first post as a logical assumption as to how the roles in this game are distributed. The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

And then...

I actually think we should go straight to being explicit about this:

Nocmen, please read the last paragraph of your post 108 and tell me if you notice any inconsistencies between it and your role pm. No-one else answer this please.

I don't see how the two can be directly compared to each other, one is my role pm that states my win condition, and my last paragraph mentioned that I think there are two anti-town factions/persons, neither of which I'm a part of or am.

Seeing all this Nocmen controversy shtuff, I went back and reread his posts. Running the risk of repeating someone else's question (oh well lol), why did you say one scum group and then, two posts later, admit your "role PM" (questionable legitimacy) said two?

I did not say my role PM said anything about two factions. I said my paragraph did mention the possibility of two anti-town factions. I'm not seeing any mention of saying that my role PM has anything about two anti-town factions. As for why I mentioned nothing about my win condition, I've been under the assumption that paraphrasing/saying win condition has always been the equivalent of quoting mod PMs, because of how easy it is to make complications with confirming induviduals.

Ah, ok. Thanks for explaining.

[ChiefSkye4]

Let's just clarify, as this is an apparently bastard mod game and all, is everyone else's role pm consistent with what Kairyuu and I etc. have claimed? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

Yessir. Mine basically says to lynch all puppeteers and those in association with them.

[VP Baltar]

Yessir. Mine basically says to lynch all puppeteers

and those in association with them

.

Bold by me. Anyone else find that part of the sentence interesting?

[ortolan]

Yessir. Mine basically says to lynch all puppeteers and those in association with them.

Haha, be more specific please The puppeteers and who?

[Grimmy]

Yessir. Mine basically says to lynch all puppeteers

and those in association with them

.

Bold by me. Anyone else find that part of the sentence interesting?

<--raises hand

Grimmy
veeeeeerrrryyyyy interesting...

[SilverPhoenix]

This discussion of role PMs is making me... uncomfortable. The discussion is getting borderline against the rules. Don't push it, or I will make an example of you. I shouldn't have to tell you how detrimental it can be to base a lynch of a perceived difference in role PMs in a closed game. That's all I have to say.

[VP Baltar]

*backs off shamed* Ok, let's not do anything against the rules. But people should just make note. Going to look at Chief some more this evening.

[Shanba]

This is an excellent example of why a sample role PM and the town wincon should be posted in the first post.

As for Nocmen... I think I know who he is. I am not going to claim who or why, though. The role I am thinking of could very well be scum, but could also possibly be town - there may be a recruiting mechanism built in somewhere, or maybe a traitor with some sort of redemption mechanism. I note at this point that this is mostly wild speculation.

Blanket Fos

for anyone who pushes me further on this issue.

Grimmy: I reiterate ortolan's question. What exactly did my predecessor do that was scummy? Please note that stupid =/= scummy.

Nocmen: Either me or Chief? Because I posted a case on Chief? Hrmf. Actually, if you think one of us is scum, money - mouth: 50/50 is better than the odds elsewhere, right?

Skye: If you have any writing samples online, a link will suffice, but otherwise I guess post something typical here. An extract or something, a whole novel's probably going a bit far :P.

About the vote/FoSsing... Hrm. I'm going to have to meta you directly, it seems. That might clear up questions about the posting style, too - hold off on posting anything until I've read some of your other games, as it may not be necessary.

If Nocmen is scum he has every right to feel hard done by. Mods should not be letting this sort of thing happen - it is no longer mafia if we are simply comparing role PMs rather than voting based on our consciences. I want Nocmen to claim, as I do believe he is anti-town, and it would be just as anti-game to

not

lynch him based on what we now know, but there's the possibility I was right, above.

[SilverPhoenix]

This is an excellent example of why a sample role PM and the town wincon should be posted in the first post.

I have learned this.

[VP Baltar]

Also, DDD where are you? You were quite vocal earlier and we haven't heard from you in nearly two days now.

Hope the game isn't broken that easy, Shanba. I was having fun.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, DDD where are you? You were quite vocal earlier and we haven't heard from you in nearly two days now.

Has it been two days? Yeesh. Anyways, I'm unimpressed by lixyl/Grimmy, lixyl for the hit and run vote which just reeked of convenient opportunism and then Grimmy's current main argument is based around datadanne's behavior which as I made patently clear earlier is basically a null-tell.

At the mod's insistence I won't further any arguments based around role PMs, but what's been said clearly seems to indicate that nocmen is not a simple townie. On the other hand that doesn't mean he's scum either and nothing from his behavior has really suggested that to me.

[Nocmen]

Chief...that doesn't add up with what information I have. You seem to have...different info.

[ortolan]

I'm up for a Nocmen claim at this point, unless anyone has any good reasons for why not?

Anything else at this point would just be beating around the bush, ironically a la DDD's plan.

[Kairyuu]

@Mod: 残念。 それは再度起こらない。(Sorry. It won't happen again)

So. ChiefSkye and Nocmen are teh scumz. Lynch Nao plz?

In all seriousness, I would like Nocmen to claim. We can move away from role pms as the mod said, but we can't just ignore this.