Mini 749 - Antarctic Mafia [Game Over]

[Nuwen]

Backtracking to yesterday's mislynch.

(

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, HowardRoark,

Light-kun

, Fishythefish, Nuwen, DraketheFake, JereIC)

History of votes on freeko:

L-6: Fishy - 143.

I think this attack is another stretch from freeko, going too hard after a light-hearted post.

{...}

All in all, I think freeko’s attack on DDD is overdone.
Because I think his attacks are contrived,

vote: freeko

L-5: DDD - 183

I've Given you chance after chance to repond to my accusations and arguments in a fair fashion, because I believe that's best for the town, but you seem to have absolutely no interest in open dialogue and merely continue to parrot the same tired lines. Ultimately, your unwillingness or inability to defend yourself and your points leads me to one course of action. So...

Unvote
Vote: Freeko

L-6: Fishy - 212. Unvoted, placed vote on DDD.

L-5: Howard - 227

vote freeko

im gonna be watching you, drake.

I see this as distancing since there has been no real interaction with DraketheFake even though there has been some questionable play from him. He even states that DraketheFake's play is at least as poor as Debonair Danny DiPietro . . .

you are quantifying your play thru Drake as being town because it is apparently terrible. I can agree that it is terrible.

Meanwhile they are both on the Debonair Danny DiPietro BW.

L-4: Light-Kun - 230

{...}

Unvote; Vote Freeko

I believe his last post is scumhunting, thus your post is a lie.

• (confirming vote, more case in 244)

I call "I win with town" as a plea to majority, which is scummy in my book.

I was getting a slight "survivor" vibe off of him, but if he were, I'm pretty sure claiming it would result in his lynch anyway. And...

Hm... You still lie, you still say he did zero scum hunting. I see some.

Vote Freeko

L-3: Fishy - 271

I agree that freeko's position has turned into a nonsense. freeko, you need to seriously reconsider your position on DDD. You are suffering from extreme confirmation bias, in which you automatically see DDD's posts nonsense. 262 reads like it is a token attempt to look like you are open-minded, without any actual intention of reconsidering your position. You are actively harming your case against DDD. You read like a scum desperately trying to get a townie lynched, or a hopelessly tunnelled townie.

unvote, vote freeko

L-2: Nuwen - 288

Did you really just ignore the brunt of this page's posts in favor of ad homming our newer replacement?

Really?

Vote: Freeko

- L-2

• (continues in 290) and 295

1. An ad hom attack took precedence over addressing real questions. Ad homs are unacceptably anti-town to begin with - Freeko is attempting to counter HR's posts by insulting them. Prioritizing that over all else compounds anti-town behavior upon anti-town behavior.

2. Rather than accepting opinion as opinion ("I personally support the RVS as the only effective way to start a game"), Freeko is ensuring that every statement in this game has a binary value: correct or incorrect. According to freeko, the contents and basis of every case against him are either dumb or blatantly 'incorrect.'

3. Freeko's case on DDD originally seemed sincere, but has since been wraithed into a single-minded assault with the intention of lynching DDD at any cost.

{...}

His single-minded focus on DDD, emotional statements like "So if I am going to be lynched. Im going to be lynched for being an ass to everyone. NO one really cares about my alignment in the game" definitely seal my suspicion.

L-1: DtF - 308

How much fun is it going to be for you to read the equivalent of 7 other players collectively shrugging their shoulders and pointing to how abrasive and useless you've been all day?

Nothing I do is ever rational.

Vote: freeko

. L-1, etc.

• (earlier noteworthy post at 276)

You are actively harming your case against DDD.

You read like a scum desperately trying to get a townie lynched, or a hopelessly tunnelled townie.

Ugh. This this this.

But I don't know that I agree with your vote.

It seems that both instances are equally likely, and freeko is the sort of hypothetical townie that a scum being wagoned love to have pop up.

Which isn't a strike against DDD, obviously, but these sorts of interactions are rarely good for the town unless he really is just a scum playing in a bizarre fashion.

• Want to note 309 too.

Why would I as a scum player want to have people voting for me jackass?

Forgot this gem. As a scum player you wouldn't want to have players voting for you, which means that you might

stop being an abrasive douchebag and actually play the goddamn game

in order to avoid having even more votes put on you. And no, repeatedly whining about DDD "backpedaling" doesn't count as playing.

Fake Hammer: Freeko - 314.

vote freeko

Bite me.

freeko DID NOT unvote before he voted. He is still at L-1.

L-2: Howard - 319

unvote freeko

I want to take away the chance of the self vote hammer. My hopes? That if you are town, freeko, that you share any other insights that you have.

L-1: Howard - 325.

Backtrack.

SOLD!

vote freeko

Hammer: Jere 329

Screw it

Vote: freeko

The initial claim request: Nuwen - 311

I know why the caged

bird

sings.

hohum - 1 (Light-kun)

Not Voting - 8 (Jazzmyn, HowardRoark, Nuwen, hohum, Fishythefish, JereIC, DraketheFake, na85)

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

-Mod

(Vote Count accurate as of Post 408)

[Nuwen]

Things I noticed:

1. At L-1, Howard still acknowledged the possibility that freeko was town. However, his lynch wasn't policy-based. Coddling plausible town alignment

while hopping on and off of the wagon

.

2. DtF said "freeko is the sort of hypothetical townie that a scum being wagoned love to have pop up," which is very true. Scum love scummy town. But as a followup, DtF advised freeko to knock off the abrasive player, because town players were interpreting it as a scumtell.

3. The final half of the wagon seems to be based around freeko's rabid outbursts at Fishy's L-6 and L-5 votes, culminating in a hammer instigated by the "balls on chin claim."

(

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, HowardRoark,

Light-kun

, Fishythefish, Nuwen, DraketheFake, JereIC)

I think at least one of the later votes is from scum, to push freeko's wagon forward while halting DDD's (temporarily?). While freeko was at L-4, DDD still had a competing wagon on him:

Debonair Danny DiPietro

- 4 (DraketheFake,

freeko

, JereIC, Fishythefish)

freeko

- 3 (

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, HowardRoark,

Light-kun

)

All non-confirmed town votes on DDD's wagon eventually ended up contributing to freeko's lynch. Twin mislynch wagons is too much of a coincidence to ignore; both of these were probably shoved along by scum. There aren't enough confirmed town players to deduce which switches from DDD -> Freeko are likely to come from scum, but keep this event noted.

[Nuwen]

Clarifying/correction. Again, sorry about the post spam. Need moar coffees.

Things I noticed:

1. At L-1, Howard still acknowledged the possibility that freeko was town. However, his lynch wasn't policy-based. Coddling plausible town alignment

while hopping on and off of the wagon

- weird distancing? Apprehensive play?

2. DtF said "freeko is the sort of hypothetical townie that a scum being wagoned love to have pop up," which is very true. Scum love scummy town. But as a followup, DtF advised freeko to knock off the abrasive player, because town players were interpreting it as a scumtell.

3. The final half of the wagon seems to be based around freeko's rabid outbursts at Fishy's L-6 and L-5 votes, rather than real cases, culminating in a hammer instigated by the "balls on chin claim." It's very easy to seize emotional play and turn it into a damning tell.

(

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, HowardRoark,

Light-kun

, Fishythefish, Nuwen, DraketheFake, JereIC)

I think at least one of the later votes is from scum, to push freeko's wagon forward while halting DDD's (temporarily?). While freeko was at L-4, DDD still had a competing wagon on him:

Debonair Danny DiPietro

- 4 (DraketheFake,

freeko

, JereIC, Fishythefish)

freeko

- 3 (

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, HowardRoark,

Light-kun

)

All non-confirmed town votes on DDD's wagon eventually ended up contributing to freeko's lynch. Twin mislynch wagons is too much of a coincidence to ignore; both of these were probably shoved along by scum. There aren't enough confirmed town players to deduce which switches from DDD -> Freeko are likely to come from scum, but keep this event noted.

[Fishythefish]

Interesting analysis.
I disagree a little about Howard's unvote. Acknowledging the possibility of the lynchee being town isn't in itself suspect- you are never going to be 100% sure of anything. Howard's stated reason in this case, to give freeko a chance to contribute, is not entirely implausible, and if this was a distancing attempt, it is certainly, as you say, weird.

About 2); I'm sure we all considered the possibility that freeko was just that sort of townie. After 276, freeko made a lot of posts which suggested that he was probably scum rather than a scum's dream townie. freeko looked more and more like a scum trying to get a lynch.

On 3)- I'm not sure I understand. I didn't make an L-5 vote, and my L-6 vote was much earlier than the wagon and I don't think it was referenced again?

There is a problem with your theory that both wagons were shoved along by scum. By maybe post 230, it was clear that DDD or freeko was likely to be lynched. From here, the scum's only strategy would be to act as normally as possible, and to join one or other of the wagons for a decent reason. In particular, they had no reason to move from a DDD wagon to a freeko wagon.

We should either pick the kill or not kill at all. Fishy, why on earth would you want him acting independently?

I've explained this. I think that if our motives align with his (ie. if he wants to kill scum), we'd be better off letting him pick the kill, so the scum have less information for killing/roleblocking him. I think that our motives are extremely likely to align with his.

[Nuwen]

On 3)- I'm not sure I understand. I didn't make an L-5 vote, and my L-6 vote was much earlier than the wagon and I don't think it was referenced again?

Eeek, more mistypings. That should read as:

3. The final half of the wagon seems to be based around freeko's rabid outbursts at Fishy's and DDD's L-6 and L-5 votes, culminating in a hammer instigated by the "balls on chin claim."

I definitely need to do another closer read of pages ~7 or 8 through the end of day one; don't let me forget to respond to your point about the paired wagons. I

think

LK's vote switch from DDD to Freeko in 212 might have been the trigger for any scum support on DDD's wagon to dissolve and rebuild itself on Freeko's. Prior to LK's dropped case, both wagons were healthy.

[Fishythefish]

Another typo I'm afraid . 212 is me switching from freeko to DDD. 230 is the post of L-k's you mean.

[Nuwen]

Okay.

Sleep first,

then

I'll do another reread. Thanks Fishy. :p

[Jazzmyn]

I see that I have much to catch up on. I wasn't able to get on last night due to my Sympatico service being out yet again (it hasn't been a factor in this game, but I've had many problems with my ISP recently) but as of this afternoon, I should have no more problems as I had cable Internet installed. Woot!

Regarding Light-Kun's vigilante claim, it's plausible and it is certainly testable, so we should be able to ascertain soon enough whether he really is town aligned or not. But I think that we

should

test LK to ensure that he will follow town consensus, whether that consensus is to take out a particular target tonight or to no-kill tonight, rather than have him act alone.

I don't know what a "prisoner's dilemma" is so I'm going to have to look that up before I'll be able to understand the post that referred to that scenario.

Regarding the paired wagons, from my review, the "shift" appears to have begun at post 271.
As of post 270, the votes were 4 on DDD (Drake, freeko, Jere, Fishy)and 3 on freeko (DDD, Howard, Light).
In post 271, Fishy switched from DDD to freeko, making it 4-3 in the opposite direction.
Then Drake and Jere both unvoted DDD.
Then, Nuwen, Drake and Jere voted freeko (with Howard unvoting and re-voting freeko in between Drake's and Jere's votes)
So, those who switched from the DDD wagon to the freeko wagon were Fishy, Drake and Jere.

Regards,
Jazz

[Light-kun]

I have nothing really to contribute, but based purely on vote analysis:

If Fishy was on the Danny wagon at L-3 and then swapped to Freeko, I think that fishy is scum.

And while Nuwen has made errors, Fishy seems unconfortable with the analysis, as though he fears the possible conclusion of Fishy=scum. Sure, town would too, but I might just be reading too much into it.

Also, if Drake the Fake is scum, Nuwen is scum. They look connected.

Jazz- I'll be very surprised if scum, but this is not impossible.

Otherwise: I got nothing.

Finally: I know I'm making generalities, but you'll have to forgive me. This isn't as condescending as it sounds but: You'll catch up to my line of thought eventually. I see patterns, tones, colors, and other things you fail to notice because they are either not there are so minute that only the insane can see them.

Enjoy.

A lesson:

Prisoner's dilemma (Classic):

A and B are two partners to a crime stuck in two different inquisition rooms. A and B know the following possible results for there actions:

Both stick to the story that neither were involved: They both get ten years.
One says the other were the "Mastermind" and the other gets 20, the one gets 5.
Both says the other were the "mastermind" and both get 20 years.

So, what should prisoner A do?

Prisoner's Dilemma (mafia):
There is a townie, serial killer, and a mafia member.

Day X:
Townie votes no lynch. If Sk or mafia vote for the other, townie won't agree because townie knows that will result in a town loss. So, playing to their win condition, sk or mafia MUST inevitably vote nolynch. (assumes deadline forcing a nolynch.

Night X:
Serial killer and mafia both know that to win, they must kill the other, but if they both do, town wins. If one doesn't, the other might kill them and take victory. As per the prisoner's dilemma, town should win assuming serial killer and mafia decide to shoot the other. Serial killer can only win if mafia no kills and he does (or mafia attacks town) and the opposite is true for a mafia win.

Case and point: A prisoner's dilemma results in town win, which means that if I'm serial killer, I would be very stupid to play as I have. I'm vigilante, end of subject.

[Fishythefish]

If Fishy was on the Danny wagon at L-3 and then swapped to Freeko, I think that fishy is scum.

Why do you think I am scum based on this swap, given that both wagons were on townies?

And while Nuwen has made errors, Fishy seems unconfortable with the analysis, as though he fears the possible conclusion of Fishy=scum. Sure, town would too, but I might just be reading too much into it.

Well, if you think I disagree with the analysis simply because it fingers me (as well as two other players) as more likely scum, then that is scummy. In fact, I just don't see Nuwen's logic for thinking that the late switchers are more likely scum. My other disagreement was over point 3), which I think is factually wrong.

Also, if Drake the Fake is scum, Nuwen is scum. They look connected.

Really? Please elaborate.

A note on vote analysis: L-k here thinks I am scum based solely on a vote- apparently independently of context. Myself, I think think my switch was both justified and explained. I think it is likely that the reason the DDD wagon turned into a freeko wagon was because during day 1

DDD got less scummy and freeko got more scummy

.

Jazz- I'll be very surprised if scum, but this is not impossible.

It seems very early to be making such certain statements.

Note that L-k's mafia prisoner's dilemma relies on the serial killer knowing the identity of the mafia (as well as vice-versa, but this is already true). If this is unknown, the townies chance of winning is 50%, as is the mafia's. The point that the serial killer has thrown the game still stands.

[Fishythefish]

Limited access notice

Due to internet jiggery-pokery, I'm going to have limited access for the next 10 days or so. I don't really know how limited, but I may be absent for a couple of days at a time. I'll try to catch up whenever I can.
Sorry about that.

Your are excused, momentarily. -Mod

[Nuwen]

Corpses don't sleep as well as I did. To anyone catching up,

pay attention to the corrections that followed my wall 'o text.

A note on vote analysis: L-k here thinks I am scum based solely on a vote- apparently independently of context. Myself, I think think my switch was both justified and explained. I think it is likely that the reason the DDD wagon turned into a freeko wagon was because during day 1

DDD got less scummy and freeko got more scummy

.

Case analysis is less useful when the lynched town player behaved in a genuinely scummy manner. A player of any alignment could have built a case against freeko; no one is going to argue that his play wasn't highly anti-town. Instead, we're forced to discern which votes on his wagon were most opportunistic. Scum love scummy town.

Because DDD's play began to become more pro-town, he would have proved comparitively more difficult to push to mislynch than freeko. This is why shifts from DDD's wagon to freeko's merit attention. There were three switches - probability says that some of those switches were made from a pro-town perspective. Again, we need to determine which switch was opportunistic.

Jazz expressed surprise that DDD's wagon advanced as far as it did. It's very likely that if the early support of DDD's lynch and the late support of freeko's lynch align, those votes came from scum.

Also, if Drake the Fake is scum, Nuwen is scum. They look connected.

Jazz- I'll be very surprised if scum, but this is not impossible.

Like your percentages, I'm having a hard time figuring out how you've come to both of these conclusions. Could you up your analysis transparency a little? I don't know why you're still playing with your cards held to your chest.

Hohum: post, even if your analysis only covers a small portion of the game. I don't like having a player in my blind spot.

[Light-kun]

Like your percentages, I'm having a hard time figuring out how you've come to both of these conclusions. Could you up your analysis transparency a little? I don't know why you're still playing with your cards held to your chest.

Hohum: post, even if your analysis only covers a small portion of the game. I don't like having a player in my blind spot.

I'm basing it off of generalities, so no not really.

[HowardRoark]

On the Light-kun vig(?) claim: I played one game with a vig . . . it was me. It was a small town game where we all knew each others' roles and were hunting a SK. All my night actions were directed by the town. The thought of a mafia role blocker does cloud the situation a bit, but I believe that it is in our best interest to "prove" him in via consensus targeting.

I can go with Fishythefish starting the freeko BW, hopping off to get the Debonair Danny DePietro wagon going, and then hopping back onto the middle of the freeko wagon to ride it out through the end of the day as freeko dug his hole deeper.

I also see that DraketheFake started the Debonair Danny DePietro wagon, then backed off when Fishythefish poked him (see post 276) with the freeko wagon at L-3, and waited to place the L-1 vote.

[Fishythefish]

I think that DDD's wagon is more interesting than freeko's. By the time freeko's got rolling in any serious way, it was clear that he or DDD would be lynched, and scum have an easy time sitting back and voting for the scummier of the two. If there is scum impetus behind a wagon, it is most likely either right at the beginning of freeko's or at any point on DDD's wagon. After this of course scum may have joined/moved wagons, but probably not in a way which is different from a townie.

Of course, a vote at any stage without a good justification is scummy. But this argument is more compelling when there is a scummy reason for the vote, and yesterday this was truer towards the start of the day.

I can go with Fishythefish starting the freeko BW, hopping off to get the Debonair Danny DePietro wagon going, and then hopping back onto the middle of the freeko wagon to ride it out through the end of the day as freeko dug his hole deeper.

I can't really be accused of getting the freeko bandwagon going. My vote was for different reasons to all the other votes on him, including my later vote, and is pretty much unrelated to the bandwagon on him. I think you are clouded by hindsight; at the time, freeko was under no kind of pressure, and this is no more an attempt to bandwagon than any other first vote on a player. As I've expressed above, can't see a reason to think that hops from DDD to freeko are particularly scummy votes. The part of my voting pattern most worthy of attention is definitely my vote on DDD. This is the most beneficial vote of the three for scum by far, and merits attention; I suggest you look at the post and other posts I had made on DDD, and decide whether or not you think I justified it sufficiently.

[DraketheFake]

By the time freeko's got rolling in any serious way, it was clear that he or DDD would be lynched, and scum have an easy time sitting back and voting for the scummier of the two.

I think the fact that you view the end of yesterday as a two-horse race, period, is probably as bad for you as your wagon switch.

[Nuwen]

Like your percentages, I'm having a hard time figuring out how you've come to both of these conclusions. Could you up your analysis transparency a little? I don't know why you're still playing with your cards held to your chest.

Hohum: post, even if your analysis only covers a small portion of the game. I don't like having a player in my blind spot.

I'm basing it off of generalities, so no not really.

I was hoping you could at least give us an example of patterns & tones you've noticed. Near-gut reads are difficult to explain, but they're the mind's unconscious reaction to subtle discrepancies or tells. Being able to pursue and explain a gut feeling is an important mafia skill.

[Fishythefish]

I think the fact that you view the end of yesterday as a two-horse race, period, is probably as bad for you as your wagon switch.

Why? For a long time yesterday there really were only two realistic lynches.

[Jazzmyn]

Prisoner's dilemma (Classic):
...
Prisoner's Dilemma (mafia):
<snipped for brevity>

Thanks for that. I understand it now, much appreciated.

Note that L-k's mafia prisoner's dilemma relies on the serial killer knowing the identity of the mafia (as well as vice-versa, but this is already true). If this is unknown, the townies chance of winning is 50%, as is the mafia's. The point that the serial killer has thrown the game still stands.

Thanks for that addition, also much appreciated.

A note on vote analysis: L-k here thinks I am scum based solely on a vote- apparently independently of context. Myself, I think think my switch was both justified and explained. I think it is likely that the reason the DDD wagon turned into a freeko wagon was because during day 1

DDD got less scummy and freeko got more scummy

.

Well, as I said previously, from my perspective as a replacement, I was surprised to see so much suspicion directed at DDD in the first place. As I also said previously, freeko's play was so poor that nobody could be faulted for voting for him, and I would have done so too had I been here from the beginning. So, case analysis on the freeko wagon is pretty much a wash, and we are left with vote analysis as a result.

There were three switches - probability says that some of those switches were made from a pro-town perspective. Again, we need to determine which switch was opportunistic.

Jazz expressed surprise that DDD's wagon advanced as far as it did. It's very likely that if the early support of DDD's lynch and the late support of freeko's lynch align, those votes came from scum.

There is overlap among Fishy, Drake and Jere on the early DDD wagon and the late freeko wagon. On the early DDD wagon were 1, Drake; 2, freeko; 3, Jere; and Fishy came later at #4. On the late freeko wagon were 4, Fishy; 5 Nuwen; 6, Drake; 7 Jere. I think it most likely that there is scum among the overlap.

Regards,
Jazz

[orangepenguin]

na85 went on an adventure to the exotic and warm land which they call Kent-Tuck-EE, where the ground is blue, sometimes green, and they have moving machines called cars. He was never heard from again..until a stranger took his place.

na85 is replaced by Looker.

[JereIC]

Even though it implicates me, Nuwen's analysis makes a lot of sense. The three of us were also the ones who voted for LK at the beginning of the day.

Speaking of whom, LK, refusing to explain your statements is anti-town, and asking people to come up with their own explanations for your statements is scummy. If they did try to come up with something, then either it'll make sense to them, and they'll agree with you, or it won't, they'll accuse you of craplogic, and you'll just respond that they're trying to strawman you.

[Fishythefish]

...don't let me forget to respond to your point about the paired wagons...

----

It is interesting that jere, dtf and I overlap on 3 wagons. However, I really don't follow the logic which suggests that these players are more likely scum than others, except that we were on the DDD wagon at its critical phase. As I've said, without much response, the late period of day 1 was one where scum just had to vote for the scummier of DDD and freeko, and so I feel there is little to be got from vote analysis here. L-k's play this morning was (apparently deliberately) extremely odd, and it is unsurprising he got a mini wagon.

[Looker]

here and reading

[Light-kun]

Even though it implicates me, Nuwen's analysis makes a lot of sense. The three of us were also the ones who voted for LK at the beginning of the day.

Speaking of whom, LK, refusing to explain your statements is anti-town, and asking people to come up with their own explanations for your statements is scummy. If they did try to come up with something, then either it'll make sense to them, and they'll agree with you, or it won't, they'll accuse you of craplogic, and you'll just respond that they're trying to strawman you.

I can recognize a strawman. I want people to argue why my thought is true and why they think a person is town. Slowly so slowly, I am beginning to feel Fishy is mafia. (Is assuming no sk as it is either I or non existent if sk MUST kill.)

I'm going to do something rare:

If Fishy was on the Danny wagon at L-3 and then swapped to Freeko, I think that fishy is scum.

Why do you think I am scum based on this swap, given that both wagons were on townies?

It is because both were scum that this is useful and implicates you. You seem to say here that you are not scum as both were town. But if you were town, would you have not presented a new case or tried to expand your thoughts. As vig, I knew I could kill two birds instead of one. So, my suspect (or someone like DDD who threw me for a loop) could easily be eliminated. You don't have this power and still seem to be subtly looking for the more scummy since, if scum, you would know who is/isn't a townie.

And while Nuwen has made errors, Fishy seems unconfortable with the analysis, as though he fears the possible conclusion of Fishy=scum. Sure, town would too, but I might just be reading too much into it.

Well, if you think I disagree with the analysis simply because it fingers me (as well as two other players) as more likely scum, then that is scummy. In fact, I just don't see Nuwen's logic for thinking that the late switchers are more likely scum. My other disagreement was over point 3), which I think is factually wrong.

1. Why are you not denying it and just agreeing with it as a possibility?
2. Well, arbitrarily (and based somewhere from experience), people tend to think that certain parts of a wagon are more likely to be scum based on the person's play style, manner of the switch of vote, etc.
3. I forget what you're claiming is factually wrong. May look at this later.

Also, if Drake the Fake is scum, Nuwen is scum. They look connected.

Really? Please elaborate.

A note on vote analysis: L-k here thinks I am scum based solely on a vote- apparently independently of context. Myself, I think think my switch was both justified and explained. I think it is likely that the reason the DDD wagon turned into a freeko wagon was because during day 1

DDD got less scummy and freeko got more scummy

.

Jazz- I'll be very surprised if scum, but this is not impossible.

It seems very early to be making such certain statements.

Note that L-k's mafia prisoner's dilemma relies on the serial killer knowing the identity of the mafia (as well as vice-versa, but this is already true). If this is unknown, the townies chance of winning is 50%, as is the mafia's. The point that the serial killer has thrown the game still stands.

Not really. Serial killer should always rationalize that killing the mafia is better because he cannot win if mafia lives. Mafia should think the same thing. As a result, Prisoner's dilemma is a theoretical town win. (This assumes mafia cannot no kill and sk doesn't have a vest.)

I think that DDD's wagon is more interesting than freeko's. By the time freeko's got rolling in any serious way,

This is where you joined....which you exclude. Okay, go on.

it was clear that he or DDD would be lynched,

Maybe for fear of being called out on it but did anyone actually claim this? Why not make a case on someone else?

and scum have an easy time sitting back and voting for the scummier of the two.

Which would then include the later of Freeko's (or DDD's) wagon.

If there is scum impetus behind a wagon, it is most likely either right at the beginning of freeko's or at any point on DDD's wagon.

Particularly with the Freeko wagon, why are you not making a case? You're just stating opinion while being mildly amiable to everyone. Nuwen isn't in this game to do all the work you know.

After this of course scum may have joined/moved wagons, but probably not in a way which is different from a townie.

So, you're either saying townie would be just as scummy in hopping or scum would be just as innocent in hopping. Meh.... I see specious reasoning here. Where's the proof? The back up? *Ding* IRONY! (Is referring to self, shut up.)

Of course, a vote at any stage without a good justification is scummy. But this argument is more compelling when there is a scummy reason for the vote, and yesterday this was truer towards the start of the day.

You are telling me this for what purpose?

I can go with Fishythefish starting the freeko BW, hopping off to get the Debonair Danny DePietro wagon going, and then hopping back onto the middle of the freeko wagon to ride it out through the end of the day as freeko dug his hole deeper.

I can't really be accused of getting the freeko bandwagon going. My vote was for different reasons to all the other votes on him, including my later vote, and is pretty much unrelated to the bandwagon on him. I think you are clouded by hindsight; at the time, freeko was under no kind of pressure, and this is no more an attempt to bandwagon than any other first vote on a player. As I've expressed above, can't see a reason to think that hops from DDD to freeko are particularly scummy votes. The part of my voting pattern most worthy of attention is definitely my vote on DDD. This is the most beneficial vote of the three for scum by far, and merits attention; I suggest you look at the post and other posts I had made on DDD, and decide whether or not you think I justified it sufficiently.

This entire reason reads as bullshit.

Vote Fishy

*Is in shackles: I WANT TO WRITE IN MY DEATH NOTE!! GAH!!!

[Light-kun]

EBWOP: Should read:

"Why my thoughts are false, and why they think a person is town."