Kairyuu and Chaos, scum.
Why? Well lets see:
Kairyuu wrote:
Random vote: Chaos40 for being the last person to post before me.
Kairyuu wrote:@Korts:
It's not the fact that Kairyuu's vote was arbitrary that bugs me. It's the fact that he explicitly stated that it's random, pre-emptively defending against any fake cases that might be built on it and giving him another reason to hop off the wagon in case it builds up.
I wonder, does the fact that it has become a serious vote since I made it change your opinion of it? As it stands, I didn't like Chaos' response. He backtracked a good deal when I questioned him, and I find that suspicious. So yeah, the vote is serious.
If Kairyuu is scum, Chaos is more likely as well--random voting a scumpartner is not unheard of by far, and with the attempt at denying any real responsibility for the vote I smell distancing.
It's a valid strategy, but quite a foolish one to use in a Newbie game. When an IC votes a Newbie partner, said partner is going to feel rather more pressured than if anyone else voted them; therefore making them much more likely to slip up and get lynched.
Why is this odd? Kairyuu got accused of being linked to Chaos because he voted for him. What does he do? He makes his vote 'serious'. He then says that it would be a silly thing to do in a newbie game, however, this is a quote from the 'doc' game that this blew up over:
Kairyuu wrote:
The only way to teach is to play at your best. I like this play because it gives me the opportunity to boost the activity levels of the thread by generating a major issue to discuss, which people can't hide from. A newbie game is still a game of mafia, and handling it with kiddie gloves only serves to hurt the newbies who are trying to get a feel for how it is played on this site. So yeah, I respect your opinion, but I disagree.
and
Kairyuu wrote:
If they're confused, then they should just keep asking questions until they understand. I'm not really seeing why you are worried about being overly gentle on the new players. If you do that then they think they'll be able to get the same treatment in a larger game and might not be able to deal with the extra pressure. Again, all people need to do is ask questions. That's what the ICs are here for.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=50
Posts 50 and 68 respectively in the game i linked. So Kairyuu has changed his mind and is advocating playing differently in this game when he said clearly in the other game that ICs should play hard. Also, while it is apparently a silly move, you also send a signal to your scumbuddy to not worry about the vote by saying that when an IC scumbuddy votes a newbie it puts pressure on them. This is pretty subtle in saying that he shouldn't feel pressured, but when combined with your previous comments, it seems like a nice way to look like you're pressuring him when you're not.
Now i figure if i can start getting you to talk about a previous game, you'll screw up, and you did, i just didn't notice till now. You've changed your mind from 'don't treat newbies with kids gloves' to 'IC scum need to be careful not to put pressure on their partners in newbie games'. I think the reason you've changed your mind is because you're now scum.
Then we have this revelation:
Kairyuu wrote:
My case on Chaos is utter crap in my eyes.
Wow, people start actually looking at Chaos in depth, and now the case is 'utter crap'. This is pure distancing, you lead the charge on your protege scum, then once you FORCE people to associate their vote on chaos with agreeing with you, you pull the rug out from under them, thereby destroying any scumhunting on chaos. It was nice, i like it, how did you do it? With this little gem:
Kairyuu wrote:
Also, everyone should please take a stance on the debate between myself and Korts
Then when i reply regarding the Kairyuu vs Korts debate, you attack me for my views on the Kairyuu vs Chaos.
You also say that i'm buddying up to an IC, yet the argument was between 2 ICs and you asked us to take sides... You deliberately manipulated someone (me) into getting the tag of buddying up to an IC, there was no way to avoid it.
Not before your buddy can find something 'scummy' in my post though.
Chaos40 wrote:
Do you mean that last sentence as, you were wondering how to go along with it as town, or how to avoid getting stuck in it as scum?
I respond to this, and Kairyuu takes over the 'scumhunting' for Chaos, that's nice of him, don't you think? This is after:
Kairyuu wrote:
Ojanen: Interesting, but not scummy. I like the questions. It shows you're trying to scumhunt.
Sando: Essentially the same as Ojanen. Putting actual effort into the game.
Now, fine that he changes his mind, but it seems pretty oportunistic in light of everything else to jump on someone you previously thought was 'interesting, but not scummy'.
This all feels like amazing distancing from Kairyuu, he didn't just vote on Chaos, he pulls his vote in such a way that noone else can really vote for Chaos. I still don't feel that Chaos has defended himself adequately, and Kairyuu's defence is:
Kairyuu wrote:
2. My second, and main, part of the gambit was my case on Chaos. His unvote was a null tell in my mind (it could be scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but when he defended himself I got the impression of him being town, so I ran with it). He has defended himself rather well, and looks decently pro-town in my eyes.
His unvote was a null tell, but could have been scummy... And when he defended himself, he got the impression that he was town, that's some pretty good scumhunting Kairyuu, thanks for sticking to your convictions like the rulebook says we should.
Kairyuu has distanced, changed his mind from his previous newbie game, and manipulated me into the tag of IC buddying. He's also effectively killed discussion regarding his previous 'suspect' based off his gut. All well and good to vote with your gut, don't destroy the possibility of us discussing it without looking scummy. Kairyuu, you're scum.
Unvote - Vote: Kairyuu
FOS: Chaos40
Why the vote for Kairyuu, other than that he's scum? Well I'm convinced of Kairyuu, but I'm still not convinced that Japles isn't scum. The other reason that Kairyuu could be coming after me is that i refuse(d) to remove my vote from Japles. I think the most likely explanation is Kairyuu/Chaos as scum, but i don't discount the possibility of Kairyuu/Japles.
Look forward to hearing from you all, all of you you lurking bums, this just got good!