Open 135 - Polygamist Mafia, Incomplete/Mod Error before 775

[mykonian]

Confirm.

Archon, I don't think I want to know you got mod-killed.

Zwet, After ten posts that consist out of less then 6 words I'm going to vote you. Hammer or not, in "twilight" or not, I'm going to do it.

[mykonian]

I've read it. Please don't make people remember. Sometimes it is better that the truth is not known. (that is going to make me some random votes, I guess )

[mykonian]

Mykonian, do pre-game posts by zwet count towards his six word posts?

mmm. Then it will probably just look like a random vote, and the effect is gone...

[mykonian]

till tuesday for me

[mykonian]

ok, back from easter, rereading now.

[mykonian]

OK, page five, and this is seriously not going to work. My eyes are continiously closing, and while I'm reading the thread, I am not seeing scummy things, it all just passes through my eyes...

General impressions till now. Zwet is very good at getting votes by being annoying, unvoting voting etc Esspecially tenchi for little reasoning.

Wall-e. Nicely tries to be protown, gets this town going. Have played with him before (or did I replace in after he was lynched?), and it is good to see that he is calmer, and not really a vote magnet, like zwet is, and like I have seen Wall-e.

Mikek. Puts some effort in this game, tries to find good tactics. Finding other poly-games for good ideas is protown in my eyes. I also don't think we should dismiss the massclaim thing now, as there are no kills (something Ace wanted to imply), and mafia can't choose.

maybe tomorrow, maybe later, I'll continue this.

[mykonian]

Here's the thing: I can't distinguish between zwets as a troll and zwets as scum. He's ruining my reads of EVERYONE ELSE in this game, and so I want him (and his three scumbuds) to die.

I still hope I can distinguish, and I'm going to assume I can. Then this time it would mean Zwet is town. For this to work, I need some games to end, where I am in with him, but I have the feeling I see a different playstyle when he is scum.

Which is EXACTLY why scum would employ it as a viable tactic.

this is a reaction on bussing. Bussing is killing your scumbuddy, something that won't happen here. Distancing is the word you need.

The way people hop onto Zwet is doubtful. Some have valid reasons, some (Wall-e!!!) even get on it with a weakened unsure statement...



Current feelings:
Wall-e: I need a scumgame from him, but on this moment, his free playstyle suggests town.
Tenchi: Scum. Reacts the way I would expect on votes, brings more and more pressure on zwet.
Zwet: at least has sometimes a sentence that makes sense, I don't think we will get a lot from him though. Maybe it would even be better if he just lurked. Same effect, less noise.
Archon: not too experienced scum. Is a bit shaky, and defends aggressively sometimes.

and I missed a few, these were people I had thoughts about. Most others haven't posted that much, and some I just don't have a read on.

[mykonian]

good news, from tomorrow I should get more time. I've got one question for Wall-e now: how often have we seen people claim a pr when they got in a little trouble, when they were town? Quite often, I'm sure. Why is being nervous scummy?

But, with Zwets play, we could have a scumteam. I expect scumteams to be made of players that are both scummy. While I think zwet not that scummy now, we can agree that he is hard to read. Both players have been under some pressure from the town. This is something we should look at.

[mykonian]

Current feelings:
Wall-e: I need a scumgame from him, but on this moment, his free playstyle suggests town.
Tenchi: Scum. Reacts the way I would expect on votes, brings more and more pressure on zwet.
Zwet: at least has sometimes a sentence that makes sense, I don't think we will get a lot from him though. Maybe it would even be better if he just lurked. Same effect, less noise.
Archon: not too experienced scum. Is a bit shaky, and defends aggressively sometimes.

Some questions on this:

1. Do you think I should lay off Zwet?

you should never, keep your eyes open

2. Do you think Zwet's town/scum/neutral? I noticed you didn't give a note on him and even encouraged lurking.

I have seen zwet playing worse. I think he is town now. But still, most of his posts don't add anything to the game, and the few that do could also be made without all the other annoying posts. That's why I said that he should lurk. Less annoying posts, just as much good posts.

3. Can you elaborate how I "reacted the way you would expect on votes"? Can you site an example?

Mainly the asking for reasons, and going far in that. It is mainly gut, but I think that pointed me to it

4. What do you mean that Archon is "shaky"?

Not perfect town play, could still be scum

5. Why do you think Wall-E's town despite you saying "The way people hop onto Zwet is doubtful. Some have valid reasons, some (Wall-e!!!) even get on it with a weakened unsure statement... "

same as with Zwet, I have seen Wall-e much less protown. He is less chaotic, and more protown then the last time I saw him

[mykonian]

Yes ace, what is the point. That is just subjectively pushing a case. I want clear points, not this feelings stuff.

[mykonian]

This is the game I know from Wall-e. Sometimes he seemed to have some concentration problem.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

You only need to read day 1

[mykonian]

ok. That is basically my meta on you

lucky we don't have doctors here!

[mykonian]

Wall-e was a doctor in that game I only have meta on doc-Wall-e. And he was not that strong as doc in that game.

[mykonian]

What is wrong?

[mykonian]

-snip of super long post-

I'm always erratic. you can check my history for that confirmation.

I hate this kind of defence

I voted for zwet because everyone else was random voting people too. I wanted to separate myself from zwet for some reason. He's a troll, of course, and I didn't... I don;t know. I just voted for him because I wanted to. Not quite sure actually...

okay... why would town distance? You know he is town! it is just as bad as a selfvote

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that there can be no busing, and that separating ones-self from another would not be a good tactic for mafia in this setup.

Town wouldn't do it either, wouldn't even think about it.

vote Archon

This post is as scummy as it gets. I would like Looker to say something about it too, if he wants.

[mykonian]

I would like someone to point out what the misrep is. Wether it is zwet or archon, I'd like some defence. Further, the way tenchi talks makes me nervous. I don't like people that push me towards a lynch by using a big font, and little reasoning. It makes me think I'm wrong here...

[mykonian]

Looker, I heard far too little from some people, and direct questions may help to get you talking. You avoided the question nicely

Wall-e, does Tenchi know that he is slightly known for pushing weak cases?

And can someone explain to me why distancing helps town?

[mykonian]

I did ask looker something, I wanted him to go over that post. He avoided it by calling Archon scummy, without reasons. The reasons I'm interested in.

and because distancing is useless, and a scumtactic, I don't want to lynch Archon based on meta, I want to do it on scummy choices. Not how he posts, but what the motivation behind his posts was. I have read that game too.

and wall-e, if he is scum, he isn't going to answer truthfully. I want to know what you think about tenchi.

[mykonian]

I hoped you knew a bit about his thoughts, as you seemed to know eachother well. The way tenchi thinks about himself, what parts of his play he is concious about. What parts of his playstyle he knows he has that he could use as scum...

[mykonian]

unvote

Wwwwwaaaaaaa-llleeeee!

DON'T DO THAT.

I hate scumclaims. There is no use for town to do it. And scum thinks it can hide behind WIFOM, but that doesn't work here.

If you are town: you don't claim scum. It is useless, it never gets you closer to your goal. You don't do it.
If you are scum: You claim because you think it is only extra WIFOM. But like it is just explained, this is not a WIFOM situation, as the other chance (claiming scum as town) doesn't exist.

I can't believe my gut is wrong again, but that was as horrible as a post can get.

Vote Wall-E

[mykonian]

Hrm. I can't believe myconian would policy vote me like that. I actually expect better from him than that.

WHY? Wall-e, after the start of the game, I never suspected that you would claim scum. It is so obviously a bad move, that pretty much everyone understands you shouldn't do it. Plus that you should never lie as town, something you know. This simply doesn't fit in anyones town play.

But you make me cry inside, because that sentence really hurts. Sure, it is close to a policy-vote (and because it is 1 AM, I can't do much better) but I really believe in this policy, for given reasons. It is so obviously scummy, that you deserve the vote(s).

[mykonian]

I didn't miss one, did I?

[mykonian]

and BTW, now we still have no answer from Archon/zwet about the case on them. Wall-e, if you are not scum, you should really do something about your timing...

and I hoped you wouldn't do too crazy things...

[mykonian]

great. Are you lovers with looker and Wall-e too? That is as clear as a bandwagon vote gets. I want reasons! More of them. and on this moment, I want to know why you think it is ok to vote without giving those reasons!

[mykonian]

great. Are you lovers with looker and Wall-e too? That is as clear as a bandwagon vote gets. I want reasons! More of them. and on this moment, I want to know why you think it is ok to vote without giving those reasons!

Wait, how do I keep gettin caught up in this Wall-E/Looker lover situation? That ain't got nothin to do with me so keep that little unfunny jokey joke attributed to Wall-E cause it ain't none of my business. And you need to specify on that reasonless vote accusation, homey.

I'm sorry. I continued Wall-e's "joke". Because I didn't like Jazzmyn's vote, it is a bandwagonvote, as clear as you get them. Wall-e used his scumclaim to go around the fact that he was also bandwaggoning.

And Looker, I'm not going to lynch you because Wall-e told he was scum with you, of course I'm going to lynch Wall-e. He claimed scum, but that doesn't mean he can't lie about his partners... And because the game is over after we have lynched scum, you don't need to worry about this "joke". It is not counted against you.

[mykonian]

Tenchi, even before reading, five posts in a row is not the way to do it.

[mykonian]

OK, the first I have tried to read, but I'm really not able to. I'm sorry, but that really doesn't work. The bolded answers can help, but not if your quote fails and not if it is too much. I think I picked up something out of it, but don't count on it.

Something about the archon case stinks. Esspecially the way people got on it. Archon may actually be right with his OMGUS-FoS...

[mykonian]

Unvote.

Nothing to add for now.

why did you vote in the first place? why were you meta-defending archon first, and then voting him with a scumclaim?

[mykonian]

ok, wall-e, YOU STILL DIDN'T ANSWER ANY OF THE QUESTIONS ASKED TO YOU!

Why did you claim scum, why was Looker in it, why did you vote archon, while you meta defended him first, why did you unvote.

and a new one, what is the problem with mike? I have a positive view on his play.

[mykonian]

Wall-e, what is wrong with you? Why don't you want to answer?

and now I have read that post from Mike, I can't see what is wrong with it. I actually didn't notice it, but he was quite sharp there.

[mykonian]

Looker? (if someone wants to look at this, is this rolefishing? I'm fine with claiming my lover, as already stated, but you weren't)

and if you call that ad-hominem, fine. I want answers, and more people want them from you, and you refuse to give them, and start to fire random accusations. What do you expect?

Or are you just hoping that something will stick, and that you can get a bandwagon going. Wall-e, your play makes no sense to me.

[mykonian]

I think wall-e needs more pressure before he wants to talk. But he is only avoiding the questions on him now. He could have answered them a long time ago.

Wall-e, I seem to remember this was a big part of your play too. You thought questions were quite important, and that you answered them always. And that it was scummy if you didn't answer. What does it mean that you don't answer?

[mykonian]

you improved, and that positively surprised me. BTW, I lynched because you refused to answer questions, that makes me think you had no answers. BTW, ongoing game, but now I know you, in other games I also adjusted my play to you. I only hope you won't become someone like archon, or zwet, that are proud of their playstyle, and keep it bad.

I know I'm not really complete here, but I didn't lynch you because I didn't like you or something. If you want to talk more about this, it is fine, but of course you've got to understand that talking about ongoing games is a bit tricky.

[mykonian]

Wall-e, it was one big gambit?

what did you get out of it?

and for the new people: please don't use things like this. This is or an excuse for scummy play, or town that made a play that is hurting him, and giving low profit.

[mykonian]

Wall-e, what are you doing here?

You do two things: you say massclaim is bad, and he is advocating it

you say it is bad to look for unnatural links.

This is the way this game has to be played: first, you try to find links, or make them unlikely, after that, by massclaim, you can see who lied about there lovers, who reacted weird on their lovers etc. Mike has read a previous game, scumhunts in a way that is required for this game, and all you can say is: "massclaim is always bad", and "he is looking at connections"

why is massclaim always bad? because with the nightkill, mafia can abuse it: there is no nightkill, so a massclaim benefits town because it gives us information, and that same information can't be abused by mafia. The fact that you step over this because "massclaim is always bad" is rubbish.


and connections, seriously, you want to be looking for them. IT IS A LOVER GAME! What do you want to be looking for, if the only thing that differentiates scum from town is that they have two more links? No town wants his lover to die, something that is the way you look for scum in a normal game. Here you need to look as mike does, and you call him scummy for it.

Wall-e, please stop this insanity. You were better in the start of the game.

[mykonian]

I hate pbpa's. They're a way to mask active lurking.

you are back! I started to miss you...

[mykonian]

Wall-e, it was one big gambit?

what did you get out of it?

and for the new people: please don't use things like this. This is or an excuse for scummy play, or town that made a play that is hurting him, and giving low profit.

What percentage value does a vote have weighed against a huge block of text that clears someone as town?

That's the only defense I will give on this issue.

I feel bad about this, but I don't understand it. Could you please rephrase it?

[mykonian]

wall-e, why did you choose a PBPA of mikek of all people? He isn't under the gun at all. I would actually have to agree with zwet (gasp) that doing a PBPA on someone who isn't a big suspect at the moment is active lurking. I suggest doing one on our biggest suspect (archon), or are you afraid do analyze your scumbuddy?

since when can't you post against anyone you like, as long as your case makes sense?

[mykonian]

but we don't know if the toilet needs to be uncloged, or if the pneumatic hammer is broken.

Wall-e only needs to show us why we should get our attention to that, and that is something he has failed to.

[mykonian]

no, wall-e, you say it is scummy, then you should tell me why it is bad.

Lets tell you why it is good to massclaim. That way, if you got two people that are scummy, and they are lovers, you've got a bigger chance that you've got scum. If you find a pair with one protown, and one antitown player, you need to think about that. It is plain and simple information that is beneficial for town, because it increases the quality of the lynch.

Now tell me why your policy of no massclaim is so good, and why we should absolutely lynch Mike for it...

[mykonian]

weak answer coming... I value them both. A vote is a clear action. A whole block of text might give an insight.

Wall-e, why would you pressurize someone you had defended just before? (to state it different, why would you put pressure on someone that you think more then average town?). It only makes that he could make a mistake, and that is not something you want town to do.

In any case, you are asking it in a personal way here, and you are actually make me feel bad about this, but after I saw how you could play in the start this can simply not be explained. a gambit like play often can explain scumplay, and I don't see how you, if you played reasonable, could think that that was ever going to give you something.

Brings me back to the question: what did you get out of it?

-------------------------

scum can't do a thing with that information, as they don't make any kills. and I already told you how it gives us information, because then we can search for two scummy players, in one lover team, something that will make our lynch more accurate.

[mykonian]

What benefit would I gain as scum, though?

Did you want to get on to the archon weagon, without knowing good reasons to get on it, and used a joke instead?

Wall-e, he got 5 votes! Only two more, and that would have been a lynch. With bandwagon eager people (Jazzmyn), you could suddenly have caused a lynch, and of course people on the end would be to blame...

[mykonian]

heh

I meant it was insulting to the town.

And if we got a quicklynch on Archon before I had a chance to unvote, odds are good the hammerer would be scum.

... I wish it was that easy. But that was the reason I then thought you had for your "joke". because jokes inside a game are not that often to be seen, and esspecially not with a bandwagon vote.

[mykonian]

you suddenly like wall-e again?

Looker, may I ask what time it is with you now?

[mykonian]

this went all so good... now we have already 4 players inside this town that are acting ridiculous, and in case they aren't bussing, they aren't all scum...

[mykonian]

hey now, mykonian, don't act like that. I've stated my reasoning, which should give me due excuse to have fun. I KNOW archon is scum, i feel it in my ovaries! And ovaries are NEVER wrong! Now we just have to let these kind people know that they won't be chastised for making the right decision. Vote Archon.

Thanks!

you are a girl? would be nice to know how to speak to you. (he/she or it)

[mykonian]

it wasn't to me, but that could also say a lot about me.

and, eh, you don't think a thing about wall-e and Jazz her votes?

[mykonian]

ok, we had an insane amount of fluff again, that suddenly focused the attention back to archon... Think about everything people, don't tunnel on one at a time.

[mykonian]

Tenchi, only one point: what wall-e did, was not smart. Or it is a last excuse for scumplay that is caught, or it is a high-risk, low gain play as town. It is not adviceable to play scummily. and if you did as scum, you are also stupid already, and this is just the best you can make of it.

But now is the question, would Town-Wall-e make that play just as often as scum-Wall-e?

[mykonian]

Look I have seen wall-e before. I know he could make this play as town. But I'm also sure he could make this play as scum. The question is, is he more likely to do it as scum, as then it would be a definite scumtell. It is something I believe in now, as this as town would need the explanation that he doesn't really care about the game, and that is not what I have seen from him.

[mykonian]

hey, funny. I guess this vote was also there to stir up discussion, Wall-e?

[mykonian]

I have one. A pity they talked themselves into a good idea again... it was a 53 page day 1

[mykonian]

you can't see what the rule is, based on one game.

ok, whatever you want. Looker is not my lover.

[mykonian]

... great reason...

good thing you never brought it up. Otherwise I would have to tell you that discussion also needs people that are against it, because with people like Wall-e and Jazzmyn on that wagon, we are not trying to get the best lynch. Bandwagonning is evil.

[mykonian]

I can tell you. The people that were on it. The way they got on it was way more interesting then the easy target that archon is.

[mykonian]

a series of oneliners was added.

this is a threeliner, that also doesn't say a thing.

or does it?

[mykonian]

Wall-e, what are you doing here? that was the most useless question you could ask. First you go on people because the want claims, and they are looking for connections and now you are doing it yourself, in a not that intelligent, and very direct way.

If you had followed Mike's play, that you are happily interupting by this not that interesting semi-mass claim, you could already have seen how you can play this setup.

So, what is your motivation in all this Wall-e? A lot of people are again happily talking around about how archon is not that great a player, but what kind of good have you done here? Several posts that didn't stick, a lot of big words, and no results! Why say you had scum for sure, after that come with a small reason, and now again attacking that person with exactly the things you voted mike for then!

[mykonian]

that was the: "ace, does you name start with an A"-question, in the hope that you will lie.

[mykonian]

he said, while slinging mud...

[mykonian]

and at least zwet said something that could prove usefull, although I disagree with it, based on what Mike said. Would you please tell us more, zwet?

[mykonian]

guys, we need a little more productive talk. I think we had some, the tells are already behind us, and now it is just waiting for us to find them.

I think, that the failed archon wagon tells us something. Also the way people got on it.

[mykonian]

I assume that was a "what".

You will find how people keep pushing for a small case, and how people get on scummily.

[mykonian]

zeenon, it might not be a bad idea to unvote.

also, I would like to point at the archon wagon, and things that surround that. That has been the most serious point in this game till now, and several people were not looking good. I would esspecially like to point you to Wall-e and Jazz. Maybe someone earlier in the wagon too, but he/she wasn't that obvious then.

[mykonian]

I liked Mike's case, he points out, without making a real wall of text, why wall-e is scum.

I don't like Wall-e's defence. It was often: please give multiple examples for this, and how do you define scummy?
I was also to often to my liking: That's how I am.

(If anyone but Wall-e really wants me to go over Wall-e's defence, and point it out, I can do that, but it makes it only more unreadable. I think you should be able to look at it and see that his defence often uses this, something that doesn't explain to me he isn't scum)

That is not a defence, and I think a lot understand this. Ace isn't really able to point it out, and I don't do it point by point, but we know.

Now we need to make sure we get all but one of the town on this wagon, otherwise we won't lynch scum. (12/2 + 1 = 7, and we have only 8 town.)

[mykonian]

Did zeenon really miss that bussing doesn't work in this game?

LOL!

[mykonian]

I thought it was L-1???

We probably need a

votecount

...

[mykonian]

ace, he is not on L-1 anymore: 7 for a lynch, he has 5 now...

[mykonian]

Looker, why do you care if someone else votes an other way?

or, you want to vote him, or you don't. There is no: if he doesn't vote him then...

[mykonian]

what are you talking about mykonian? for once i don't understand what you're saying? you're going to strain your brain trying to stretch it around this concept so just relax. sit back and see what happens. it's not that bad a plan to be honest

I'm sorry, but because the votes go so fast...

I don't understand why you first see to disagree with the wall-e lynch, and then suddenly say that you will vote him if nobody else does, like this is some kind of excuse to do it.

Tenchi is completely right. Wall-e was very scummy, but you top him here.

The only thing that keeps me from voting you, is that first game we had. Would you please try to explain this one? I don't want a quicklynch here...

[mykonian]

Looker, could you please tell me why we needed a terms of agreement?

[mykonian]

Looker, I shall try to explain what is wrong here:

Like you say, this is mostly an individual something, but as you can trust your lover, he is important too. Anyway, you barely bargain with your vote, because you want to vote for the person that is scummiest. So, first you don't want to vote him, and the fact that archon does something shouldn't make you vote Wall-e, that is not a good reason.

the same was that you hadn't a good reason not to want to vote Wall-e.

so, the fact that you "sell" your vote, means that you are not busy with lynching scum, but with voting someone that is not you, or your buddy's.

[mykonian]

tenchi, I don't really want to do this, but I don't know if 1 is so true.

I expected some weird play from looker, and I happen to have recent meta on both scum and town play. Said enough, this is closer to town. I think you already noticed in thread, that Looker and I had played earlier, and that that wasn't such a succes.

I'm happy she improved a lot after that game, but this seems to be the moment something weird had to happen. Please, keep your mind open, and see where we get, but DON'T quicklynch. She is not an experienced player, and never had such a situation, so look it over first.

[mykonian]

ok, the only way that Wall-e is scum, is if:

Looker pulled of a brilliant play as scum.
Looker didn't know what she was doing as scum, and didn't play that great.
Looker wanted to look protown by acting like she was supporting the wall-e wagon, while not voting him, and hoping that we would forget such a deal.

[mykonian]

Ok, in that calculation I had zeenon as wall-e's lover. Discard it.

[mykonian]

ehh, tenchi, I have one problem with your reasoning:

you assume you are town, and save wall-e with that. With that, is the assumption that your partner (that you have so greatly claimed was on the wagon) doesn't distance.

because as soon as scum starts to distance, and organises something like this, we will be owned in a glorious manner.

[mykonian]

Looker is also town, as well as his partner.
I don't want to get mod-killed, so i'll keep the reasons to myself ...

O seriously? now you won't be mod-killed? and how about poor Looker?

[/color=green]

[mykonian]

...

[mykonian]

sure, lets play again. This time I want to play it out and win.

because you can tell me what you want, but Mike owned this town. Hadn't tenchi been awake just too early, and if not exactly that situation would have been there, we could have slept to our win.

Did you notice how the whole active town was on archon for a moment?

[mykonian]

BTW, anyone that wants to set me up during the random voting stage next time should vote zeenon very fast. Because I will vote him for ruining my scum win

[mykonian]

but zeenon had a lucky shot at gregory. Not that there was a case, but still.

(lekker puh)

[mykonian]

ahhh. Sorry you have to leave, my friend

[mykonian]

just because I see too much zwet on the first page.

[mykonian]

My lover likes to do that

[mykonian]

Let me ask you this: Did the not-claim make the scum nervous at all?

of course not. How would it? No, we were pretty happy how things were going, and it didn't seem like that was going to change

[mykonian]

no, you should pick a color too! This is much easier to reread!