The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Percy]

Vote: Xtomx for Lynch

Wierd first post there, guy!

Vote: Yosarian for Mayor

Best avatar!!!

[Percy]

@Xtomx: I think claiming 'unlynchable' makes you the perfect scum target. If you're pro-town and also the mayor, what makes you think you'll survive tonight?

My vote stays.



And anyways, I agree with the general principal of voting for a player who smells kinda town for mayor, and keeping a very close eye on them for the rest of the game.

I know mayor

sounds

awesome ("Shit yeah, I'm the goddamned MAYOR!"), but those 'running' for mayor obviously have a rather high opinion of their scumhunting skills, or are scum. I will

Unvote for Mayor

until a candidate addresses the (actually serious) question: What would make you a good mayor?


@BM: I don't think a short day is

ever

in the town's favour. What would make you think otherwise?

[Percy]

For the record, here are the breakups by gender and by age:

Male players

dingoatemybaby (Male, 38)
MikeSC6 (Male, 19)
Xtoxm (Male, 18)
zwetschenwasser (Male, 1)
Yosarian2 (Male, 28)
Jahudo (Male, 73)
Barrylocke (Male, 19)
Dr Pepper (Male, 17)
Shadow Knight (Male, 29)
Percy (Male, 27)
Firestarter (Male, 32)
Mufasa (Male, 16)
ZONEACE (Male, 21)

Female players

The Fonz (Female, 11)
DizzyIzzyB13 (Female, 17)
Shinnen_no_Me (Female, 19)
knox (Female, 18)
Gorrad (Female, 42)
Juls (Female, 29)
Ztife (Female, 24)
Battle Mage (Female, 19)

Age in ascending order

zwetschenwasser (Male, 1)
The Fonz (Female, 11)
Mufasa (Male, 16)
DizzyIzzyB13 (Female, 17)
Dr Pepper (Male, 17)
Xtoxm (Male, 18)
knox (Female, 18)
Barrylocke (Male, 19)
Battle Mage (Female, 19)
MikeSC6 (Male, 19)
Shinnen_no_Me (Female, 19)
ZONEACE (Male, 21)
Ztife (Female, 24)
Percy (Male, 27)
Yosarian2 (Male, 28)
Shadow Knight (Male, 29)
Juls (Female, 29)
Firestarter (Male, 32)
dingoatemybaby (Male, 38)
Gorrad (Female, 42)
Jahudo (Male, 73)


No idea if this will prove useful, but good for reference later maybe?

As far as i see it, those who want to be mayor arent necessarily arrogant or scum. They are just being selfish, and finding the simplest route to fulfill their win condition. If we all vote for ourselves, nobody will get anywhere.

...and yet you want to be mayor?

I think those who want to be mayor should be motivated by a

lack

of selfishness - understanding that they are submitting themselves to greater scrutiny for the benefit of the town. Yeah, your vote counts more, but if you're wrong about a vote, it will be a

lot

harder to talk yourself out of getting lynched in retribution. Anyone who is wanting the power to throw in another vote for selfish reasons is dangerous

at best

.

I think a lot of people are voting Battlemage simply because he posts a lot, and that's pretty dumb. A large post count is not indicative of anything I've outlined.


Still no posts from Firestarter, Ztife or ZONEACE. Post, please!

[Percy]

We have to have a mayor.

I've been thinking about Xtomx's claim, and I think it's like a miller role, which should be claimed on Day 1. I think lynching him

just to test his truthfulness

is a bad idea. It's great we have this information, and if he looking like a good lynch candidate, then we lynch him; if he's not, we don't. There is nothing inherently scummy about the ability, and sacrificing a lynch shouldn't be an option.

Where Xtomx is very wrong is that it makes him a good mayor candidate. He shouldn't be mayor, as if he is unlynchable and scum, there will be a minimum of two days where he can wreak havoc with his doublevote.

I'll

Unvote Xtomx for Lynch

(for now) and throw my vote on a lurker!

Vote Ztife for Lynch

.

[Percy]

Sure, he could be lying, but why is he scum? We need more information, and without it, we're just going to be testing one guy's claim that lynching him will be a waste. The best we can hope for is that X is a lying scumbag who claimed unlynchable and is goading the town to lynch him in the hopes that we won't. Whilst that is (vaguely) possible, I don't see any other evidence for it, and I need to see more of it. As I already pointed out, if you had that role, the most protown thing for you to do would be to claim it early (like a miller role).

Lynching X is a terrible idea right now.

In answer to the Fonz's question, I think that his power is most likely as claimed. I conclude nothing about his alignment, and don't want him anywhere near the mayor's seat.

Why do you think i would be a bad mayor?

That's a misleading question. You're the one who has to convince me to vote for you. Why would you be a good mayor?

If you'd like my read on you, here it is:
I disagree with you on the Xtomx issue, but somewhat agree with your approach to the Dizzy metatheory - I think town shouldn't lurk, but I think my approach is to make one big post per day with well thought out analysis rather than one or two sentences many times a day. Just my style, I guess. Other than that, you claim experience (which I assume you have), and are an active participant in the game.

With that in mind, sure, you wouldn't make a terrible mayor. You are not the only candidate, and you're not standing out in anything but the vote count.

@Xtomx: I think claiming 'unlynchable' makes you the perfect scum target. If you're pro-town and also the mayor, what makes you think you'll survive tonight?

Percy, please explain why that would be a bad thing.

OK, I don't really understand your question. I was trying to say that an unlynchable pro-town mayor would be a big scum target for their NK, almost as much as an unlynchable doctor or something. I want Xtomx to explain why he thinks he won't get NKed. Does that answer your question?

I'm happy with my vote on Ztife at the moment. The Fonz has stepped up and said you're noobtown, but I'm not so sure. The mayor position as you described is a scum's wet dream, and your OMGUS vote is insane.

@Mod: Can we get prods for ZONEFACE and Firestarter?

[Percy]

@Yos: If you claim that ability while under investigation for scumminess, it is far less likely to be believed. Just like claiming miller

after

an investigation on you is less likely to be believed, even if it's actually true. Of course if you follow that logic, the best time for the scum to claim this ability is at the beginning, but that's no different from scum claiming miller.

If it's true, we need to know early. I'm not saying his early claim makes him protown, but that the best time for protown unlynchable to claim is when you're

not

under investigation.

Let me put it another way. He claimed unlynchable, and now many players want to kill him, just for that. If he was already looking scummy and

then

claimed unlynchable, he would be put down like a dog, even if he was protown.

If he's some kind of Jester role, we shouldn't lynch him. If he's some kind of rise-as-a-bad-guy role, we shouldn't lynch him. If he's just an unlynchable townie, we shouldn't lynch him. If he looks scummy, we should lynch him, and if he can't be lynched, we'll deal with that then.


This looks like I'm defending Xtomx, which is really not where I want to be. I just think that the claim had to come out, and I'm glad it came out now, and we should be looking at his playstyle rather than policy lynching him based on his claim.

In that vein,

When you fail at lynching me i'll be confirmed town, so i'm the best choice.

If we try to lynch you and fail, what about that will make you confirmed town? It will mean you're telling the truth about being unlynchable, but I don't see that as a protown power.

BM asked a similar question, and you dismissed it. Answer both of us.

I suggest you start contributing. You'll get my vote in 48 hours if you don't start scumhunting and analysing like a motherfucker.

My vote for myself is because I don't fear a lynch, and for now it is a place holder as I am transiting into the new game and wrapping up the old game.

This post is pretty wierd. Why vote yourself as a placeholder when you can just not vote?

[Percy]

A claim like that woudn't necessarally stop a lynch, but it wouldn't really matter much at that point anyway; plus then no one would be surprised when lynching you causes a no-lynch.

Personally, if someone I was suspicious of claimed unlynchable, that wouldn't do anything at all to dissuade me from voting them - it would probably make it worse. "Wouldn't necessarily" is a poor choice of words.

Why did the claim "have to come out", exactally?

I think we're in a better position now knowing what we know. I'm not saying that it would have come out eventually, as in, it was inevitabe; I'm saying that it should come out, and the best time was early. I think it's good that we know, but I would expect someone with that power to drop the claim and then go about trying to avoid being lynched just the same. The fact that he has dropped this and ran doesn't look good for him at all.

if he is protown, without a night action, why would he WANT to avoid being NKed? In that scenario, you absolutely do want to be NKed.

Are you saying that a protown unlynchable should want to be NKed? Why on earth would anyone protown

want

to be killed by any means?

Also,

Claim: Jester

...

This looks like I'm defending Xtomx, which is really not where I want to be. I just think that the claim had to come out, and I'm glad it came out now, and we should be looking at his playstyle rather than policy lynching him based on his claim.

I suggest you start contributing. You'll get my vote in 48 hours if you don't start scumhunting and analysing like a motherfucker.

I have an irresistable urge to lynch you right now.

The way you quoted my post made it sound like that comment was directed at you; it wasn't. I think that dropping a claim like that and then lurking throughout the rest of the day is scummy.


Also, still no posts from ZONEFACE and Firestarter.

[Percy]

Uh, ANYONE who is town and not a mason or role with a night action should want to be nightkilled. Duh.

Wat.
I think what you're assuming is that his only power is unlynchable. If that's the case, then I agree somewhat - him being NKed is better than a powerrole getting NKed. That said, saying that a vanilla townie should wish for death is ridiculous. A vanilla townie can be so much more beneficial to the town (in the long run) than a powerrole, given the right play and the right player. One townie can be better than another. And so on.
I think you're trying to make some sort of general rule which doesn't exist, while confusing the hell out of me and making me look scummy.
I don't like how you just dropped 'mason' in there, either.

This looks like I'm defending Xtomx, which is really not where I want to be. I just think that the claim had to come out, and I'm glad it came out now, and we should be looking at his playstyle rather than policy lynching him based on his claim.

I suggest you start contributing. You'll get my vote in 48 hours if you don't start scumhunting and analysing like a motherfucker.

I have an irresistable urge to lynch you right now.

The way you quoted my post made it sound like that comment was directed at you; it wasn't. I think that dropping a claim like that and then lurking throughout the rest of the day is scummy.

Uh, no it doesn't make it sound like that at all. It makes it sound like BM thinks your comment is scummy. And I agree.

Firstly, the quoted paragraphs have stuff in between, and no indication of that was made. That's why I thought it could be mistaken to be directed at BM.
Secondly, my comments have been echoed by other players. Examples:

You know, I'm getting tired of WIFOMing Xtoxm's stuff back and fourth here with absolutely no input from him.

Let's let him come back and answer some of the questions about him, explain his role in a little more detail, ect. If he dosn't do so in the next few days, I'll probably vote him just for lurking at this point.

Zwet, on the Xtomx lynch:

IT'S A PILE OF WIFOM!

On the Xtomx claim..
There have been alot of posts made about this, but until Xtomx comes back and answers the various questions posed, WIFOM will rule.
...
Ill reserve judgement on Xtomx until I hear more from him.

Sure, the latter two are pointing out the WIFOMery rather than saying they will vote him for being a lurker, but the general sentiment of my first sentence is there - Xtomx's claim is not enough for a lynch. I think his subsequent behaviour

is

indicative of scumminess, but I think that's quite obvious.

So, Fonz, do you think Yosarian is as scummy as me for making his statement? How about the others I quoted? If not, why not?

What good would make us to know the claim so early? If he's trule a unlynchable townie, claiming would only take him to a certain N1K. And, why would he want that? I can only think in a use for that as a way to protect another power role from a NK, but that isn't the case right now. And claiming to get the major role isn't good either, as other players have said, why would we want to have an unlynchable major that we can't disposse in case he's doing a bad job? That would be like having a dictator! Really, I can't see how his early claim is good. Also, in general, uncalled claims are never good.

What I was trying to get at is that claiming unlynchable while you're under suspicion will only hasten your wagon, which means (if he really is unlynchable) it will hasten a "no lynch". This is not good. Instead, we now know that there is a risk of a "no lynch", but if we think Xtomx is scummy enough to earn our vote anyway, then we can go ahead and lynch him.

How about this. Why don't we all list our top four methods for deciding how to vote for mayor and our top four method for deciding how to vote for a lynch. The top three from each will then go into a round robin style voting contest, where the winner of each round will be determined by a method to be determined through an three day elimination challenge. The winner of the round robin contest will be validated by two thirds of the most experienced players and a simple majority of less experienced players. If validated, people can then use these methods to decide who and how they are going to vote for. I propose we vote on my proposal.

I like this. Let's vote on what plan to use, then vote on whether to vote for mayor or lynch first!

Voting for a lurker 87 posts in?

Sure! It was still randomish, and I like to make sure those who aren't contributing don't slip under the radar. It's really easy to

Unvote Ztife for Lynch

later, you see?

Also, here's a PBPA of Dizzy, with questions:
-Votes self for mayor
-Votes Xtomx for lynch, says she won't shift her vote unless she's "absolutely sure" the player is town

How can you be absolutely sure? Also, how dangerous do you think a scumayor is?

-BM accuses Dizzy of holding back until she can make a casting vote
-Dizzy replies with a simple "no I'm being wise", without really addressing his point
-Wants a lynch on Xtomx for meta as well
-Claims "There's far less obfuscation involved [in using your vote judiciously] than jumping from place to place."

I disagree - putting your votes down when you suspect someone makes it clear on re-reads and easier for the town to follow the paper-trail.

-Starts using Shadow Knight's proposal of voting two people for mayor, and later claims that it's great because people have to show a preference other than self voting.

I'm reluctant to vote anyone for mayor who self-votes, simply because it gives me no good information and is available to both scum and town. Now you can still vote for yourself, and state a preference, apparently. Why not simply vote for someone else? If other people like your playstyle, they will vote for you. If you haven't stated that you don't want to be mayor, or even said that you

do

want to be mayor, you'll get over the line. I just don't understand why your self-vote is so important to you.

[Percy]

Wishing to get nightkilled by scum, absoltuly. Unless a town role gets really lucky, scum kill someone every night. If you are a vanillia townie, you WANT that someone to be you, rather then a power role.

OK, I can see the reasoning here now. Sorry it took me so long

However, an experienced player like Fonz or BM is more likely to use the double vote wisely. I'd rather have a town double-voter that participates as much as they normally would than a scum double-voter that participates rather than lurks (lurking being a scumtell).

I agree.

Vote: Yosarian2 for Mayor

as the most sensible protown player I've seen so far.

Yay. I like percy now that he unvoted me.

Er, what?

FoS

.

Anybody with 2 votes will always try to shake off the responsibily when the vote goes wrong, whether townie or scum. Just about in the case where everybody will want to hammer and then say "Now that he is townie, it was a wrong hammer, but he was scummy". Anybody disagreeing other would be playing a WIFOM game, and for that to happen is rare anyway.

See my earlier post:

I think those who want to be mayor should be motivated by a lack of selfishness - understanding that they are submitting themselves to greater scrutiny for the benefit of the town. Yeah, your vote counts more, but if you're wrong about a vote, it will be a lot harder to talk yourself out of getting lynched in retribution.

This is a good response to all of Firestarter's discussion as well. Whilst I agree that the mayor will be under greater scrutiny, I don't think handing the position to the scum is a good idea. We can still observe those we think are scummy and lynch them.

@Firestsarter: Let's say we elect a scummy mayor, who turns out to be actual scum. They participate in a bad lynch, we haul them over the coals for it, and lynch them. They choose a successor.... and we expect them to choose someone scummy as well?
Another note: what's to stop this mayor from playing ultra-conservatively, earning heaps of townie points for being a good mayor, and coasting along to the endgame when their position may have a disastrous effect on the game?
Ultimately I think your proposal is interesting, wrong, but not scummy.

No

Vote to lynch: Xtomx

.
My reasoning follows Dizzy's:

We don't know if there's a vig in the game

. If there isn't, Xtoxm doesn't die at night, no matter whether he's town or not. Why would scum kill him now when his mere existence is a distraction they can manipulate?

Xtoxm won't help us in any way. He won't full claim. He won't play the game. He'll just be siiting there being entirely useless and hurting the town until he dies. Therefore, we lynch him now to test his claim, since it's about the most useful thing that can be done with him.

Bolded section especially. Other players have been indicating that there is a vig (like Shadow Knight in 84 or Mike in 234), but I don't see why.

@Dizzy: I asked a few questions in my last post. Care to answer them?

I don't want to lynch him because I think the scum will kill him for us.

Why on earth would they do that?

[Percy]

If this method was chosen, we'd need to adapt a policy lynch later in game (not too much later in game, mind) to ensure the elected Mayor was not scum.

So you're proposing that we should elect someone to mayor, and no matter how protown they seem later, no matter how many scum they lynch, we have to kill them anyway? I'm glad you've decided to abandon this plan.


Xtomx is at L-1, by my count. Any last words, X?

[Percy]

The millar situation

I'd like to try something.

@Millar- if you are at least 3 votes away from lynch, please vote yourself. After he does so, no one else vote him unless you're scum.

..which millar does in 472.

The Fonz votes for millar in 476.

Shadow Knight ignores this in 477, asking for a vote count, hoping that the jester's self-vote won't count. If it does count, then he's going to 'drop the Jester line of thought'. Seems a little odd and arbitrary.


Now there are millar posts that make me say "WTF":

i will explain what X was, when I am killed.

What X

was

? When you're killed you will still talk?

And some that scream "impatient to be lynched":

Juls I was dead even before I had posted on this game. Just plz get it over and done with. You can re-read after my death and during the Night Phase

"Go on, just kill me! Don't even think about it! It won't be a bother! Everything will be fine!!! QUICKLY!!!!"

...but then when Juls says this:

If you are town millar then vote Yos mayor

...he goes ahead and does it in 518.


Conlusions: millar needs to be left alone. I can't get a read on him at all, and there's a better alternative.

If we choose not to lynch him today (based on the theory that he is unlynchable

or

a Jester) I don't think anyone could discount "lynchable scum" enough to let him live in the long run. Thus, he has to die soon.

However, it would be better to let him live until the night; if we have any vigs, he's either dead scum, thwarted Jester or dead anti-town liar. If he survives tonight, we can always lynch him tomorrow. It's just not clear enough to risk wasting a lynch imo, even if the possibility of it failing is remote. We gain virtually the same information with less risk if we leave it for tomorrow.

Unvote millar13 for lynch

---

Firestarter and mayor discussion

... the biggest problem isn't that you proposed a bad plan but that you spent 2 pages (and counting) pushing it and introducing unneeded confusing into a pretty simple process.

*nods* I agree that this is his biggest problem, but I think voting people for theorycrafting, even if it's kinda bad, is an overreaction. It's annoying to read, but at least it was right there for us to read it.

The process wasn't simple before, either. Other people had made other suggestions before; many people are electing multiple candidates, and everyone seems to be electing others for completely different reasons and holding different expectatons on their mayor candidates.

RADICAL MAYOR PROPOSITION:

Vote for someone you think is protown who wants the job, and scrutinize whoever gets in after he gets elected.

Kinda sucks to get elected, yeah, but responsibility sucks sometimes. If you're a good scumhunter you can lead the town to victory, and that's kinda cool for a townie, even though it's dangerous and hard.

---

Theorcrafting

I believe one gains a far better understanding someone's thinking as expressed through post content rather than simply following voting patterns.

Indeed that is true. However, I think signposting is never bad. If you read all of my posts and notice inconsistencies in the way I vote or FoS, that's something you can point out. If you're the kind of player who plays a lot of baseball and never reads the centre of paragraphs, then putting your voting record in bold can help those players keep up to speed on who suspects whom. It doesn't detract from my analysis; it allows me to demonstrate my opinion on who is scummy in a clear and precise way. This is something every town player should do as much as possible.

I once replaced a guy who had claimed cop, and was counterclaimed. By a guy with an innocent investigation on him.

I'd really like to read this game. Can you at least tell me what happened?

[Percy]

Anscumone wanting to get in my face about double hammering yesterday?

Sure! Nice to see you're trying to wriggle out of it already, by pre-labelling your attacker as scum.

You had spent

SO LONG

saying that it was a pile of WIFOM, that we shouldn't lynch him, then saying he was a jester, then saying he wasn't, and then hammering without stating why you'd had a change of heart or concisely stating your position. So, explain yourself.

Mufasa has been acting really weird too. Answer the questions put to you.

ZONEACE promised a post on Wednesday. I am going to

Vote: ZONEACE

until he comes up with some fucking

excellent

scumhunting.

[Percy]

Calling out lurkers, voting for them and demanding quality participation doesn't seem like a bad idea. I don't have much experience, so I can't comment on its overall efficacy, but I'm willing to give it a spin.

If he doesn't get replaced and starts actively participating, then I won't want him to be lynched. For the moment, I just can't see how anyone would be OK with a player

skipping all of the first day

and then posting only to defend themselves. Lurkers (especially ones like this) should be lynched as scum.


@zwet: were you seriously worried about millar sticking around until endgame?

[Percy]

Therefore, if I start playing properly I can be a huge asset.

Well that would be just

great

.

@zwet:

@zwet: were you seriously worried about millar sticking around until endgame?

I'll clarify, as millar clearly is going to stick around. What I meant was this: you said that you hammered to avoid having millar around 'until the end of time'. I'm asking: did you really think that that was a possibility? I don't think anyone was willing to let him live until endgame without killing him somehow, so to hammer based on that fear is odd.

Flub. Inothernews,Ididexplainwhyyosrolefished.

Er, no you didn't. I can see that Yosarian was asking for a full claim from millar, but given the circumstances that's entirely understandable. I don't think you know what "rolefishing" is if you think Yosarian did it.

I'm not believing that one haha so reviewing day one the most likely person to lynch is Battle Mage for his contribution is so great that he needs to be lynched on the simple matter that he has a good

conveying

I don't see how this makes any more sense. Please clarify.

His posting with the rise and fall of plot isn't my favorite play, and I have found to be scumtell in various games.

Can you provide a link to any games in which you've used this scumtell successfully?

Also, you sat on your mayor vote for the whole first day. Why didn't you unvote BM for mayor?

[Percy]

You said that you realised that BM "wasn't good" shortly after you voted him mayor. However, two days after your vote you said:

2nd the mayor vote is rather interesting, I seriously would not mind Yos, Fonz on Battle Mage as Mayor, the three likelist to be town.

... and the first indication that you changed your mind was at the start of day 2. What post of Battle Mage's made you change your mind?

Your defense so far seems to be "I was in another game and it took all my time", or something like that. Well, now that you've got the time, how about you respond to the request I made and the other question I asked?

[Percy]

@dingo:

I'm sure that calling out lurkers is a good idea. However, you suggested you would keep your vote on him until he provided "excellent" scum hunting. That seems to me a way to keep a vote out there which won't really do anything. It is an easy way to avoid committing to an actual lynch.

...and related discussion which I won't quote.

I'm putting a lot of pressure on ZONEACE* to make sure his replacement hits the ground running with lots of good analysis. I am not willing to let him (or his replacement) slip by without notice for another day.

Let me put it this way: I won't vote for someone else today until I start seeing protown behaviour from ZONEACE/replacement. I don't think we should lynch anyone until this occurs, because we'd have to repeat this all over again tomorrow. I can still comment on other cases (and have been doing so), but if a player gets lynched before ZONEACE gets replaced then that's a terrible result for the town.

*I believe someone made the comment that "ZONEACE needs to show his ZONEFACE", which stuck in my brain due to hilaire and perhaps is the source of the name confusion.


@Mufasa:

His posting with the rise and fall of plot isn't my favorite play, and I have found to be scumtell in various games.

Can you provide a link to any games in which you've used this scumtell successfully?

I just don't see this as a legitimate scumtell, at all. I'd like for you to provide some evidence for its usefulness.


@zwet:

No. It was rolefishing, but not scummy rolefishing. Percy, I couldn't care less if millar stays around for the rest of the game. The important thing is that the WIFOM surrounding him is gone.

Firstly, asking for someone at L-1 to claim is not rolefishing. Secondly, you made a big deal out of it (HOW COME NO-ONE NOTICED?! or something to that effect) when everyone else could see it for what it was.

Now you've said that it was to start discussion on Yos. It failed. Do you still want to talk about Yos? What is your opinion of him now?

Also, the WIFOM surrounding millar has

not

gone. People are still talking about whether we can assume he's a stumped townie or something more malevolent. I think it's a terrible idea to lynch a Jester (or some other related role), but you seem to think that if someone might be a Jester you might as well lynch them just to be sure. Is this correct?

@Mike:
It's bare, as in carry
You didn't vote for a mayor, which I find odd. Are you happy with Yosarian2? Why or why not?

[Percy]

@zwet: I made an error in characterising it as L-1. That said, it doesn't change my opinion that Yos' request for a claim was not scummy (a point on which you now agree). It also doesn't change that it wasn't 'rolefishing' in any meaningful way. Now can you answer the question that I posed in the previous post:

Now you've said that it was to start discussion on Yos. It failed. Do you still want to talk about Yos? What is your opinion of him now?

---

@Yosarian: I personally think that millar is a stumped player with townie win con. However, the discussion as to his alignment is not completely sorted out for some players, specifically:

We should try to ignore millar13. He has no measurable agenda.

If he has a win condition, it probably not town

. We have no way to pressure him.

It will only add onto the massive WIFOM generated

. The town does not need this kind of distraction.

Yay, I said that Village Idiot could be someting other than a jester Although, I said just about everything at one point or another...

We don't know if that's as far as it goes though, there could be more to it than just that

.

Your general role is confirmed.

Your alignment is not; you may have some strange kind of role with a win condition other then "You win when the threat of lycanthropy is eliminated"

.

That being said, you most likely are pro-town, and I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

For all we know, M13, if he has a win condition, has probably been met.
In a post I made earlier, I found that one of the conditions is convincing town to lynch a village idiot...

In any case, alignment is unknown

. So ignoring him may be the best idea.

What am I missing?

When were you confirmed as town

?

So, a lot of discussion, my bolding. You said later:

So, yeah; we basically should consider millar a "tree-stumped" townie at this point, I think.

I agree with you, but other players do not:

Nothing he did gives me any confidence in him. I voted him under the premise of lynch all liars. Well he is still in the game. I am not pleased with the result.

I would vote him again if I could

.

This millar thing is still making me uneasy

. On the surface it does just seem resolved- but the way millar is trying to get people to acknowledge his "confirmed townie" status, I find that odd. You're unlynchable right, so why try and convince us (and semi-OMGUS Firestarter in 626 too)? We know that this game has some special mechanics, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see something that might trigger millar off again or something.

The idea that doubting your townie status is scummy as well, millar, doesn't wash

- is it likely that scum would challenge you, when they can't lead it to a lynch? I can't see it.

Again, my bolding.

I reacted to zwet's pronouncement:

The important thing is that the WIFOM surrounding him is gone.

...which was his attempt to justify his hammer. I didn't think that the discussion had died down at all - 5 players had expressed doubts, one player (Yosarian2) changed his mind but two players (Dr Pepper and Mike) continued to be unconvinced after Yosarian's clarification. Thus when zwet claims he hammered millar to remove the WIFOM, I am simply pointing out that it is still around, and that this is no defence to why he hammered in the first place.

@Everyone: Are you considering millar to be a stumped townie, or something else? Why?

@Mod: Any news on the ZONEACE replacement?

[Percy]

@Yos: I agree with you - he's protown stumped, and barring unpredictable weirdness he'll just hang around. More importantly, people were still talking about it when zwet called the issue resolved: this is independent of whether you think the discussion has any merit.


@zwet: Can you answer my questions?

Goddamn

.

[Percy]

ok i am replacing in,

is there anything i need to answer too right off??


in the mean time i will read and try to catch up expect a post tomorrow

Welcome. A summary of your thoughts on the game, who you think are scum and why would be much appreciated.

@Dr Pepper:
I don't see how this:

dingoatemybaby: Look at Percy now. He is actively participating while following another lead. Will you now try to paint Percy in such a fashion that he wasnt even close to possibly doing?

I suggest you go back and reread what I actually said about Percy. I was talking about a specific tactic he said he was going to use. I'm done trying to correct you on this. If you want to talk about what I actually said, fine. I'm not interested in defending misrepresentations of my position.

...leads to this:

@dingo: I havent misrepresented anything. You have been trying to make something scummy that wasnt. I never even accused you of being scummy yet. But I am now starting to wonder just what you are up too. Percy currently has a perfectly legitamate stance and unless it was reset, he is still voting ZONEACE/tubby while contributing and starting more discussion. You are being misleading and completely paranoid with outrageous accusations.

FoS dingo

Specifically, I think you challenged dingo, and his response was not "misleading and completely paranoid with outrageous accusations". Can you state more clearly why dingo earnt your FoS? Was it from that post, or previous posts? If it was from previous posts, why didn't you FoS then?

Re: Mufasa. He has been incredibly unclear, appears to have not read the game due to his many off-context remarks, and has been very unhelpful. I can see the situation where he's just a crap townie, however, and I'll stop myself short of deciding one way or the other until he posts again. I'd like for him to clarify the Battle Mage thing, but I'd much prefer it if he started talking about the players who are actually here at the moment.

[Percy]

@Mufasa:

Dr Pepper patience is a virtue and you are really pushing the envelope a little bit hard, almost to the point that you are trying to hard to get an easy lynch in which It makes me think that you may possibly be scum

fos Dr. Pepper

Firstly, if you think you're an "easy lynch", then stop being an easy lynch. It really is that simple. Either replace out of this game or quit your other games and concentrate on this one so we don't spend pages arguing over whether your latest retarded mistake means you're scum or not.

Secondly, you are pushing this BM stuff pretty hard:

Battle Mage to me hasn't posted a post since I had put out an accusation and has really let the rest of you rip into me as to why I had accused him smart move but I find him a wee bit lurkish without saying he would be gone so

fos BM

As has been pointed out, you knew BM was gone a few posts back - you even corrected Yos on the issue. I agree that BM needs a look in when he actually can post again. But your continued insistence on this point makes it seem like you're looking for "easy" ways to appear like you're contributing to discussion and providing information for the town, but you're actually not. Get a new angle, and scumhunt elsewhere. Stop defending yourself and actually act pro-town by doing something original and helpful.

@zwet:

HE JUST GOT BACK FROM A TRIP, AND HE'S MILDLY DISORIENTED.

Ah, the "mildly disoriented" card. I'll make sure I keep that up my sleeve next time someone calls me out on something scummy. I expect you to rush to my defense when I play it, zwet!

My opinion is the reasoning.

No it's not. Stating an opinion is not reasoning; it's best when an opinion comes at the conclusion of reasoning, but they are different things. The question stands - why are you so willing to defend Mufasa? It's getting to the point where the "I have a town read of him" excuse isn't holding up any longer - your reactions are disproportionate to any possible read you may have on him, based of his flawed and quite possibly scummy play.

Re: the Pepperdingo situation:

Your earlier post really seemed to convey the message that you strongly disagreed with his vote

and

his stated intent to keep his vote there. I find it a bit odd you seem to be distancing yourself from your earlier position there now...

I bolded the "and", because I think this is where the confusion lies.

I don't think dingo didn't like my vote. I think he didn't like that I said I would keep it there until ZONEACE's replacement actually contributed to the game. He wasn't asking me to change it; he thought it was scummy that I wasn't willing to change it.

"You should be willing to change your vote"
is not the same as
"You should change your vote".

Does this clear things up? Specifically, @Dr Pepper, do you think I'm wrong? If not, do you still think dingo is scum? If so, what is the better read?

@Barrylocke: Hello? Are you still here?

[Percy]

@ Percy i would stop defending my self and give my opinions but it seems like certain people are persistent on old news and don't give a shake.

FoS: Mufasa

.

@Firestarter: You do realise that the part of dingo's post you quoted was addressed to Dr Pepper, right? How exactly did I earn your FoS?

[Percy]

It's not. However, you haven't stated

why

you think he's town.

You were asked:

You're acting funny here, Zwet. Answering for Mufasa? Refusing to believe that there's anything in his scummy behaviour? It would be okay if you said

why

you thought all of these various scummy posts were merely mistakes. What we have is your opinion, but we don't know the reasoning behind it.

...which is essentially where I'm coming from. I find responses like this:

My opinion is the reasoning.

...to be scummy. If he really is just a confused, busy pro-town player, then he's playing like a confused, busy anti-town player. Making excuses for him is more than a little bizarre. He's also at L-3, by my count. Why do you think he's in such a great deal of danger?

[Percy]

@Dr Pepper: Post 769 is true, and I'm sure dingo would agree. That's why he voted for me - he thought I was using a scum tactic. This is a self-evident fact.

You have disagreed that it is a scum tactic (and I agree with you there), but now you seem to be claiming that dingo never meant to imply that I was scummy. You've also said that dingo is "backpedalling" from this conclusion, but I just don't see it.

Now

this

is a better representation of the situation.

Dingo
(1) Percy voted, and was not willing to change it until the condition "excellent scumhunting" was met.

FACT

(2) Imposing this condition is a scum tactic.

OPINION

Therefore:
(3) Percy is using a scum tactic.

NECESSARY CONCLUSION

Dr Pepper
(A) dingo accused Percy of using a scum tactic in voting for ZONEACE/tubby.

FACT

(B) dingo may be scum with ZONEACE/tubby.

FACT

(C) dingo has not presented a good enough argument to show that (2) holds.

OPINION

Therefore:
(D) dingo may have other reasons for holding (2) beyond those currently stated.

POSSIBILITY

Therefore:
(E) dingo may be discouraging a vote on ZONEACE/tubby, for scummy reasons.

POSSIBILITY

Is this a fair and accurate summary of your positions?


Please answer this question, and then I'll do a re-read of the whole argument and look for possible scum/bus motives.


I'll also note that I

have

followed through with my strategy. I think it's important to not leave lurkers behind, and I don't want a lynch until tubby has had a chance to speak. When he does speak, I want him to be under a lot of pressure to generate good info for the town as fast as possible, and scrutinised while he does it. That's why my vote is (still) on him.

[Percy]

Still re-reading, will post tomorrow.

[Percy]

Epic post detected! Brace yourselves!

ZONEACE promised a post on Wednesday. I am going to Vote: ZONEACE until he comes up with some fucking excellent scumhunting.

In your experience, does this kind of vote actually get lurkers to post? Would you support pushing up the vote count on him and eventually lynching if he doesn't provide "excellent scumhunting"?

Calling out lurkers, voting for them and demanding quality participation doesn't seem like a bad idea. I don't have much experience, so I can't comment on its overall efficacy, but I'm willing to give it a spin.

I'm sure that calling out lurkers is a good idea. However, you suggested you would keep your vote on him until he provided "excellent" scum hunting. That seems to me a way to keep a vote out there which won't really do anything. It is an easy way to avoid committing to an actual lynch.

These two posts are his original objections. Based on these posts, I would say that dingo's objective was not to get me to change my vote.
He (apparently) used the strategy I am using now in a game where he was scum, and he found it helped him be scum. I don't think it suits my playstyle to avoid talking about lynches and expressing my strong opinion either way, so that's not why I am doing it, but I can see his reservations.

Dr Pepper's first post:

dingo, I find that accusation of Percy not contributing to be unfounded. He is clearly performing player analysis, calling out lurkers, and keeping the game moving. He doesnt need to commit to a lynch so early. Maybe he doesnt want the popular lynch to occur. Maybe ZONEACE will be the lynch for the day.

The first sentence is inaccurate. The rest is a defense of how it's not leading to my lack of commitment on any particular issue, as that was what dingo isolated as the 'benefit' of the scum tactic. I think his argument is something like "he's not using it how you're afraid he'll use it, so what's the problem?'

Note that this is not an argument against dingo's original proposition. It could very well let you avoid committing to a lynch - Dr Pepper is pointing out that it's not

in this instance

.


Something like this:

Dingo: Percy may be using a scum tactic that helps him to do X.
Pepper: The tactic that he's using isn't helping him do X.


However, Pepper now says:

It is fine that you don't like Percy's vote stance, but you have yet to give a valid reason for him to change it.

... which is where things start to become less clear. The fact that dingo pointed out the possibility that I may be doing it for scummy reasons was not a bad thing, imo, especially if he's used the same tactic I'm using now in a scummy way. I didn't read it as an attempt to change my vote - I read it as a discussion he wanted to have about my choice of tactic. I didn't feel pressured to change my vote. However, Dr Pepper read it that way, and away we went.

I'm not asking him to change his vote. But that stance that he won't change his vote unless Zoneface provides excellent scumhunting? Not a solid position. Lurking can be scummy, but votes should eventually move to who ever is MOST scummy.

Keeping a vote on a lurker can be a useful play for scum. You have an excuse to not vote for a scum buddy. You will not be blamed for the lynching of a townie if the town is going after one of their own.

This is not to say lurkers should not be pressured. If he does not respond to prods, he should be replaced. If he responds to prods but continues to lurk, he should be considered a candidate for a lynch. Putting a vote on a lurker now probably does not do much.

I defended myself at the time, in an attempt to explain my thinking behind the tactic. Dr Pepper especially objected to this post; he read it as further accusations that I wasn't contributing, whilst dingo was continuing to insist that the tactic itself can be scummy. I think they were talking at cross purposes, with dingo off in abstract meta mafia land and Dr Pepper actually looking at my playstyle.

Sidenote: dingo, are you more inclined to believe ZONEACE/tubby to be scum now, given the above quote and his replacement-then-lurk?

Now dingo continues to take exception to my use of 'excellent'. Is he honestly worried that I will say "Thanks for actively participating in the thread and scumhunting, and generally helping the town, ZONEACE replacement, but you're scumhunting isn't excellent so you have to die now"?! I don't think so. I think he's worried that I'll use it as an excuse to not participate, to not weigh in, while we're waiting on the lurker. I have been involved, so this point is somewhat moot, but that doesn't make it wrong.

The discussion appears to die down, until Dr Pepper says this:

dingoatemybaby: Look at Percy now. He is actively participating while following another lead. Will you now try to paint Percy in such a fashion that he wasnt even close to possibly doing?

to which the reply:

I suggest you go back and reread what I actually said about Percy. I was talking about a specific tactic he said he was going to use. I'm done trying to correct you on this. If you want to talk about what I actually said, fine. I'm not interested in defending misrepresentations of my position.

This is when the debate becomes independent of me and starts being about Pepper and dingo. Dr Pepper is trying to say that dingo's original attack was designed to paint me in a bad light - I disagree, as I think it was more a "watch out he could be trying to get away with being scummy" kind of post. I remember feeling very uncomfortable when Pepper brought it up again, but that may be just because I hate it when other people step in to fight for me.

@dingo: I havent misrepresented anything. You have been trying to make something scummy that wasnt. I never even accused you of being scummy yet. But I am now starting to wonder just what you are up too. Percy currently has a perfectly legitamate stance and unless it was reset, he is still voting ZONEACE/tubby while contributing and starting more discussion. You are being misleading and completely paranoid with outrageous accusations.

FoS dingo

I think it was perfectly reasonable for dingo to bring it up in the first place, especially if he's used the tactic in another game to be better scum. Sure, I haven't used it in that way, but I don't think he was trying to make me seem scummy.

That said, I think dingo is unwilling to concede any of the points that Dr Pepper has been making. Pepper's been arguing about my playstyle, whilst dingo has been arguing meta, and neither seem willing to concede each other's points, like so:

dingo: I agree that Percy isn't using the tactic in the scummy way that I foresaw. Still, that doesn't make pointing it out not scummy.
Dr Pepper: I agree that Percy could have used that tactic in a scummy way. Still, he hasn't, so why are you continuing to talk about it?

The fact that they weren't conceding those first sentences seemed to anger the other party. At this point in my re-read, I'm leaning dingo to be the 'more town' player. He hasn't made misrepresentation errors the way Pepper has, stuck to his meta argument and defended it adequately. Dr Pepper has been defending me via in-game reasons when dingo is talking more abstract - Yosarian was talking about the meta, and made good points. That is, he is possibly trying to make dingo's words into something they're not.

Pledging not to vote for anyone else, no matter how scummy those people might be is NOT good play.

Is there a scummier person here right now? Because I dont hear you doing very much scum hunting.

Hmm. This is the same thing that's been going on since the beginning - dingo talking meta, and Dr Pepper missing the point. I understand that it's important to keep people focussed on scumhunting, but I thought this was a little too opportunistic. Like a "gotcha!" moment.

Again:

dingo keeps pushing for Percy to change the vote style only because someone might be scumiier. I have repeatedly asked dingo to provide a better target and he hasnt. dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason. I find these actions of his to be either misleading or paranoid.

I think this is a trap. If dingo scumhunts and says "Percy should vote for this guy", then that's dingo controlling my vote. If dingo doesn't say "Percy should vote for this guy", he's *still* controlling my vote by telling me to move it off ZONEACE.
The point is, it doesn't matter whether there's a better target or not. The argument comes down to whether I'm prepared to move my vote, not whether there's a good target for me to move it to.

And there it is again. I have not once asked Percy to change his vote.

OK, one question. Why criticize him for his statement then?

This is it in a nutshell. Dr Pepper continues to insist that, even though dingo never said "Percy should change his vote", that was the only good reason he would have brought it up in the first place. This is false, as several players have already mentioned.

Percy stated to keep his vote on ZONEACE. dingo didnt like this statement and criticized him for it. The only logical reason to make a statement is to affect change. dingo further backs up the criticism by saying Percy might be voting ZONEACE to 'avoid commiting to an actual lynch'. I respond with if Percy avoids commting then criticism may be warranted, but until then Percy has solid ground to stand on. Now dingo is back peddaling.

Notice here that Dr Pepper and dingo might be able to actually *agree* here. Dr Pepper thinks it's good for me to have my vote on ZONEACE/tubby. dingo is worried that I may keep my vote on ZONEACE/tubby when someone else pops up who is more scummy. These positions are

not mutually exclusive

.

Frankly, I'm starting to think you're scum at this point, possibly with Zoneace; you didn't want Percy to keep his vote on Zoneace indefinatly, but you are now trying to deny that that was your position and actually are attacking Dr. Pepper just for saying that. The only logical reason I can think of for that is if you were trying to protect Zoneace, but didn't want anyone to notice you were protecting him.

He wasn't trying to deny that. He didn't want me to keep my vote on ZONEACE indefinitely

regardless of how the game develops

. This is very different, and that qualification has been made clear to me by reading dingo's posts, and he's made the point more than once.

Now dingo starts calling Dr Pepper a liar for continuing to miss this particularly important point.

any reasonable person could read your post and see it as kind of a sideways way to try to discourage Percy from keeping his vote on Zoneace. You could have just defended your position or whatever and I would have been ok with it, but instead you responded with a massive over-reaction; you accused Dr Pepper of lying and of misrepresenting you, voted him, and have been attacking him since then. The degree of your response seems completly out of propotion to a rather rational and logical post by Dr Pepper, who didn't even FOS you in his initial post, and it makes me think that you may be hiding something, or that your motives may not be what you're saying they are.

Now, the first sentence is worth considering, but after dingo's repeated clarifications in game I can't see how this read might still stand. dingo started off polite, and it got worse when Dr Pepper continued to not see the point. I think the rest of the post gives far more weight to dingo's role in the developing argument than is warranted.

Since you are refusing to acknowledge that I have a point, I am going to assume dingo is either scum or stupid. I quoted you several times to back up my arguement and instead you just ignore me.

This is the argument from both of them, but at this point I'm still leaning dingo as the player with the more consistent, sensible position.

C) Percy is using a scum tactic

He never actually says C, but the implication is there. And given how much he is back peddaling I think I found something useful. If dingo had said, well thats one interpretation but not what I meant, then I would have moved on. Instead he calls me a liar and accuses me of misrepresenting him. dingo, at least three other players see my point. Just acknowledge it exists and is reasonable.

I think dingo was arguing all along that I was using a scum tactic, as I said before. His posts just don't make sense otherwise. Pointing this out is again off-topic and inconsistent with his other lines of attack against dingo.

End this pointless debate, my brethren, and concentrate on lynching the evil ones...

This jacks up the possibility of one of them being scum. I've been suspicious of zwet for many reasons I've already stated, and this seems like an attempt to give either of those locked in the argument a good "out", even if it is later in the day. It's characterising the whole debate as "something you shouldn't bother reading". This leaves it at "dingo and Pepper were fighting". Under this scenario, the most likely role distribution is zwet is scum with Pepper, and dingo is their victim.

I attempt to clarify the situation after Pepper poorly summarizes it, and dingo also takes objection to this summary, defends himself and challenges Pepper to answer the questions put to him.

Yosarian votes for dingo, without stating reasons, but eventually clarify that it's because dingo is using the word "liar" a lot when he doesn't think Pepper has been lying.

dingo agrees with my analysis, but highlights that the argument I presented was not as the strong as the one he presented, and after the re-read I have to agree. Furthermore, he says that Pepper looks like a liar on a complete re-read, and again I have to agree. Dr Pepper continues to use wrong assumptions and characterize dingo in the worst light possible, and he doesn't have enough evidence to do so.

What if he doesn't provide "excellent scum hunting" and only acts like an average townie? Tubby may not be capable of excellent play. What if someone else appears extremely scummy? Would you still prefer to pressure someone providing average scum hunting over someone who shows them self to almost certainly be scum? Would you argue others should follow your lead?

Here is my point. Your stated strategy is not sound under many plausible situations. Whether you are scummy can't be determined until or unless those situations arise.

I understand your concern, but my pressure vote is intended to get him to participate in the best way possible. I understand tubby's replacement may indeed be retarded and fill the game with anti-town crap. He may indeed just be average, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. However, I don't want to lynch anyone else until we've heard from this player (because allowing a player to get away with no posts for two days is fucking outrageous), and I want the player to feel under pressure to play his best.

And dingo's follow up statement about me mis-reping his stance, well what do you think of Percy now that Percy is staying the course with the stated strategy? Is Percy scum or town for not moving his vote until tubby/ZONEACE comes up with some excellent scum hunting?

This seems like a great way to avoid dingo's question and to continue to misrepresent what he was initially saying.

MikeSC6 attempts to downplay the situation, admits to not having read it and then tells us to go watch some cats instead. This further compounds my impression that one of the players involved in this debate are scum, and the scum are preparing their exit strategy just in case it goes bad.

In conclusion, I think dingo pointed out something sensible, and Dr Pepper has mischaracterized that statement in every way possible to try and turn it into something it's not. When a frustrated dingo defends himself, that too is spun into a scumtell. Now Dr Pepper is going to try his hardest to get dingo killed, and I think this is so over-the-top as to be another scumtell in and of itself. There could have been avenues to dismiss this argument as two townies butting heads, but the fact that it's gone on so long really doesn't lend itself to that interpretation. I also find zwet and Mike's attitudes scummy, and suggest they re-read the thread properly, ffs.

HoS: Dr Pepper
FoS: zwetschenwasser
FoS: MikeSC6

[Percy]

Compounded by the fact that it is an Fos instead of a vote because the hypothetical situation dingo implies may now actually be occuring. Percy, if you find me scummy, then vote me. There will be plenty of time to vote ZONE/tubby replacement when they arrive.

I will say right now that if I had to choose one of you to vote for, then I would vote for you. That's why I HoSed you. Anyone who reads my post could not fail to see my opinion on this issue. It doesn't have a vote at the bottom, but in any other situation it would have

I'm not going to vote for you until the replacement gets to post. I do not want to end today until then, and if you get pushed all the way to L-1, then interrogating the lurker will look like a side issue.

Seriously, there is a player in this game that none of us have any read on whatsoever. We need to remedy this situation today, to the best of our abilities.

I thought you understood what I was doing, in that it wouldn't prevent me from talking about the rest of the game; is the situation different now that you're the one under threat?

I completely don't mind you guys lynching me, its all good.

This is as big a scumtell for me as self-voting. I think he's shooting for the "so stupidly anti-town that he couldn't possibly be scum" defence.

OOC:

kaiberanr eplaces ONEACE/tubby 216 3ffective inmediately.

bVote count tomorrowww.

loldrunkmod!


Also, welcome Kaiveran

[Percy]

No time to post today; tomorrow for sure! Sorry everyone.

[Percy]

Mufasa wants to be lynched tomorrow. Let's leave it until tomorrow, including the full claim. If the ability is awesome and he's protown, the scum are (more) likely to NK him.

Other than that, I wait with baited breath for Kaiveran.

[Percy]

@Kaiveran:

Are you happy with Yosarian as mayor? Would you have voted for him as well?
Was there a particular post of Dr Pepper's that you can point to as the most suspicious?

@Mod: What is up with the catherina post? Any word on a barrylock replacement?

[Percy]

If it's true that Mufasa is scum, then he's set himself up for a lynch tomorrow.

If he's town who does have an ability that will help the town if he's lynched tomorrow, then it's in the scum's best interest to NK him tonight. If it's true that he gets recruited to the scumteam or some other weirdness if he's NKed, then he'll still be lynched tomorrow from his claim.

So I don't really see how lynching him today is a good idea.

Unvote, Vote: Dr Pepper

(L-1). Time to bring the girls back!

[Percy]

EBWOP: (L-2). I believe Pepper is now on 5 votes, not 6 (I counted zwet twice).

[Percy]

Oh yes, I was expecting him (and wanted him) to claim in his next post.

[Percy]

Bah! Good luck, wolves!

[Percy]

Well played, scum! Even though most of the original scum were useless lurkers.

The dingo/pepper debate was particularly difficult for me to navigate. Nice shot, fonz.