Mini 774: Case Closed Mafia (One Truth Prevails!)

[StrangerCoug]

Firestarter does seem a bit off. Not to play both sides of the fence, but he is saying a lot of bad stuff about you yet hasn't revoted you. His quick retraction (which he defended as voting too soon) is not enough to warrant a vote, but I am looking at him, so don't call me tunnel-visioned even though I've mostly gone after you so far.

Hang on for a second...

Ive explained why i retracted my vote, its as clear as day.

Other than what Ive explained, how else am I "off?

Read what you quoted again, even if it's obsolete.

Firestarter claims null-tells can't give reads. Have you meta'd Millar yet? If so, you should know that he is an Empking, or a Zwet, meaning that most of the stuff you are accusing him of are null-tells.

Or, to some extent, a StrangerCoug. I'm getting better, though.

We just found millar13's scumbuddy...

And you're not saying who it is straight up because?

Also I would like to know where both Korlash and Strangecoug stand at the moment, considering these are the only other active two that really have contributed anything of reall value thus far to this game

I've already said what I think about you, and Firestarter's going downhill.

Ok, millar13, you have 2 hours to post your case on me, Ill be gone for this time.

I don't think two hours is a fair time limit. Upgrade to an

HoS: Firestarter

.

[millar13]

Now you clearly are not just a plain vanilla townie...that is more than clear from post 121. Clearly you are sitting on some sort of power position (I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum) otherwise you wouldn't be so frustrated and resorting to using offensive language. Why would someone with no real power feel the need to swear and your such horrible and disgusting I do not know.

The likelihood is that you actually believed in our back-and-forth confrontations that with the introduction of other players I would come off looking worse, and they would put their votes on me rather than yourself. What you have to understand, is that a large amount of my case is built upon the fact that people actually see you in the same way as I do...although their views are more valuable as they are very much out-side the box and therefore provide me with a more rational view of things.

So you want a full case? Guess what you can have one, free of charge.

You start off with post (24) a

clear random vote

, one that would be expected and you are just like every other player who "chooses" to particpate in the RVS. It isn't compulsory and therefore, be not taking part really should not be seen as some sort of

issue

afatchic and Strangecoug have some sort of RVS conflict, with what is clearly a case of you vote for me, I vote you. However, this if often just playful in the RVS and doesn't actually amount to anything solid. You then for some unknown reason suggest that both of them are scum, and then unvote and

Vote afatchic

(by the time you have voted a second time, you have ended your personal random stage) and so this is just the beginning for you.

Then me and Strangecoug have some sort of situation, where he suspects me as scum and at the time I didn't quite know what to think. Once again you you jumped on a altercation and made it your business to vote against for the

third time

with no real case.

Despite this you actually seemed to be able to talk some sense with Post 49:

Firestarter:
"Hehe, Millar13, well done.

You've cracked the game, bravo...

Moreover, you've gone on to establish that a bit of pressure is scummy.

WRONG.

Pressure reveals quite alot, to ascertain who IS scummy under pressure/who IS town under pressure.
To be frank, there was no pressure at all, and your worry at appearing scummy if you had have voted is.. scummy

In the random stage no wagon will ever gather serious steam unless a scumbag does something catastrophic on their part.

So I would ask you to relax, and not get too carried away with yourself right now.

At this time, only scum can be sure of who's who, and with the little information gathered thus far, tonwies have no clue.

But pressure leads to info, and info is good for townies.

Morning tea seems to be done alright, and for this time I shall..

UNVOTE"

Then in Post 73 you vote for a

4th time

although this time it is very much for reason outside the came, or for reasons of "bollox-ology" what ever that words is actually meant to mean I do not know.

Only two posts later you have then unvoted me, and put me on MAJOR FOS. Making you undecisive but also seeming as the fact that pacman didn't actually seem to back you reason, as the reason why you felt you need to back off yourself.

Hmm... Ok..

I agreed that the other players should at least post on whats been happening here before anything else happens...

UNVOTE: millar13

MAJOR FoS: millar13

Minor FoS: Firestarter

. Don't be so quick to retract a vote.

In fact, it was the other way round..

I was too quick to place the vote.

Look back on the other page, you'll see why.

You state you were too quick to place the vote, when funnily enough this was the 2nd time you had already voted me. If it had been the first time it might have actually have made some sense, but second time is sort of suspicious.

It wasn't until page 5 however, that any real strong feeling to actually vote for you came into frutition

Then at Post 103, you vote for the

fifth time

the 3rd time you have had a vote on me and seem to back it up with the fact that more people haved posted, even if it is only one post and therefore not really enough too:

Hmm... Ok..

I agreed that the other players should at least post on whats been happening here before anything else happens...

UNVOTE: millar13

MAJOR FoS: millar13

Allow this post to actually occur. All that really happend was Rage, Korlash and Sejin surfaced for the first time (some more than others) but you didn't really take in what they said as you had already decided you were going to place your vote back on me either way.

Isaac made some good points, not all great or perfect, but some good points none the less and you didn't even challenge what he said but gave a week response of:

We just found millar13's scumbuddy...

That post is convincing to anyone, and is pretty feeble at attempting what ever it was that psot was meant to accomplish.

Then Battousai voted for you...and in many ways what was said in the start of Post 111 was exactly what you had done, as you have taken yourself from small tells and null tells to something much more open and readable. It was in many ways this post, that did enough to convince me that you were worth voting for. That is all I have against you at the moment.

I am not saying I think your 100% scum, but you 60/40 at the moment in my mind.

Why I didn't give you a case straight away...simple. Because I was in the middle of writing it but also because I wanted to see your initial reaction. You are clearly someone who believes they should be in control.

[StrangerCoug]

Now you clearly are not just a plain vanilla townie...that is more than clear from post 121. Clearly you are sitting on some sort of power position (I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum) otherwise you wouldn't be so frustrated and resorting to using offensive language. Why would someone with no real power feel the need to swear and your such horrible and disgusting I do not know.

This is an awfully weak attack, and I'm hearing WIFOM bells go off. The case itself is good, though.

[millar13]

In many ways the start was not good, but it was edited after the use of the bad language. I am not someone that really back it up, or see it as something that need to be used in these environments without good reason. I can see why you could see this as scum-play, but maybe it comes down to the fact that I couldn't believe that someone who was vanilla would actually think so highly of themselves, when in the majority of games. Mafia member have through their own realization or not shown to be "up their own arse" so too speak.

Other than that, I think my reasons to vote Firestarter are strong enough at the moment.

[millar13]

Firestarter hasn't replied...even after he set me a 2 hour deadline.
And he has been active. Hmmmmm

[Firestarter]

Dont worry millar...

Im here, writing my reply.

[Firestarter]

Before I get to millar13, there are a couple of things that need to be cleared up that I didn't get to before I rushed off earlier.

1.

It's as easy for a scum buddy to find as a townie. And how in the hell is meta usage opprotunistic? you're arguements are kinda stupid you know.

2.

and would you mind actually commenting on Issac's 107?

1.

I agree with the first part of your sentence. The 2nd part I meant "Isaac seemed opportunistic" in the way he put forward the post with its points against me.

2.

Firestarter is scum. Typo's are not scumtells, nor is bad wording.

You unvoted not because people weren't posting, but because you were unsure as to whether or not you were on a popular enough wagon.

Your attitude is anti-town.


Firestarter claims null-tells can't give reads. Have you meta'd Millar yet? If so, you should know that he is an Empking, or a Zwet, meaning that most of the stuff you are accusing him of are null-tells.

Millar seems town to me. Going off attitude here, not actions (often more telling, as actions can be gambits or foolishness, but attitude usually remains constant.

Isaac seems to think Im voting millar13 because he made a "typo"..... No, its more than that. He should read whats been written so far.
He seems to think I unvoted millar13 because it "wasn't popular"... No, I agreed with Sajin that I'd wait until others posted. The funny thing is that millar13 is

MORE

guilty of this, because of his unwillingness to vote me, and then doing it ONLY after others had done so.
Isaac also thinks millar is town due to "attitude"... Thats a new one to me, I must admit.
I accuse players of being scum based on their actions in the actual game we're playing in.. Am I missing something?
Isaac thinks my "attitude" is anti-town.. but does not state why??? So.. Why??

*******************************************************

1.

Read what you quoted again, even if it's obsolete.

2.

We just found millar13's scumbuddy...

And you're not saying who it is straight up because?

3.

Ok, millar13, you have 2 hours to post your case on me, Ill be gone for this time.

I don't think two hours is a fair time limit. Upgrade to an

HoS: Firestarter

.

1.

I dont need to read it again, you explained that I answered about the vote/unvote of millar13, I wanted to know why you were still keeping an "eye" on me, as you did not make that 2nd point clear.

2.

This post came straight after Isaac's post attacking me with the exact same horseshit millar13 posted. Not only that, but there was very little content about anyone else.. very little. Sounded defensive of millar13, and I like to pressurise where I can.

3.

At the time, millar13 was online with me, and we were posting within minutes of each other. Is it so unreasonable to think he was still there when I posted that post?
Not only that, but he blatantly refused to post his case as requested by me several times. This is clear SC.
You placed a HoS on me for asking for millars case, which he blankly refused to do, yet I get the HoS... ?????

Ill post my reply to millar13 shortly.

[Firestarter]

@ millar13

Now you clearly are not just a plain vanilla townie...that is more than clear from post 121. Clearly you are sitting on some sort of power position (I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum) otherwise you wouldn't be so frustrated and resorting to using offensive language. Why would someone with no real power feel the need to swear and your such horrible and disgusting I do not know.

millar13, your making accusations, yet your not actually following them up with your reasons for them.
Please do this so I can answer them.....
1. How do you percieve me more than being vanilla townie from post 121?
2. How am I clearly sitting on some sort of power position?
3. You say you doubt me as pro-town, then you say Im "Concrete Scum"... Only scum can be concrete about a players alignment, I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion?
4. There is,however, one part I can answer here, and its your accusation of me being offensive and frustrated.
Yes, I was frustrated because you refused to even say you'd post a case on me after I asked you. Twice.
If I was offensive, which I dont believe I was as I did not directly insult you, then I apologise.
Abusing someone or bringing their family members into a game is not something I ever do.

The likelihood is that you actually believed in our back-and-forth confrontations that with the introduction of other players I would come off looking worse, and they would put their votes on me rather than yourself.

What you have to understand, is that a large amount of my case is built upon the fact that people actually see you in the same way as I do...although their views are more valuable as they are very much out-side the box and therefore provide me with a more rational view of things.

Both our posts up to now are under the scrutiny of who's reading them, I can only post what I think.
If someone else thinks your scum, so be it. If someone else thinks Im scum, Ill answer their concerns/thoughts/accusations appropriatly.
Ive bolded a part of your quote above, because I dont understand what you trying to say.
Please re-phrase this or at least clarify it.

You start off with post (24) a

clear random vote

, one that would be expected and you are just like every other player who "chooses" to particpate in the RVS. It isn't compulsory and therefore, be not taking part really should not be seen as some sort of

issue

Acute obversation.

afatchic and Strangecoug have some sort of RVS conflict, with what is clearly a case of you vote for me, I vote you. However, this if often just playful in the RVS and doesn't actually amount to anything solid. You then for some unknown reason suggest that both of them are scum, and then unvote and

Vote afatchic

(by the time you have voted a second time, you have ended your personal random stage) and so this is just the beginning for you.

Incorrect, It was still in the RVS stage for me. This is my post...

afatchick & Strangercoug are both obv-scum.

Time I got me a wagon together!!

UNVOTE; VOTE: afatchick

I think its very clear by reading this, my post was part of the "playfullness" as you put it.

Then me and Strangecoug have some sort of situation, where he suspects me as scum and at the time I didn't quite know what to think. Once again you you jumped on a altercation and made it your business to vote against for the

third time

with no real case.

Again, incorrect.
Below is the quote pyramid...

Vote: Millar13

for taking an anti-town policy in order to help his scum play.

FOS:BATTUOSAI

for applying "tactics" in the random voting stage

And the thing wrong with that is?

I've only known scum players to try and make a game serious A.S.A.P
so doing so was a scum tell

Towny doesn't feel akward around the random stage

And below is my post...

So, by your own admission, your scum...

Thank you..

UNVOTE; VOTE: millar13

I made this post to apply some light pressure on you and see your response, after you stated SC was the first player to try to end the RVS.
My reading of who started getting serious first reads like this..
Battousai >> Post 23
millar13 >> Post 25
Strangercoug. >> Post 28
When you made this statement...

"I've only known scum players to try and make a game serious A.S.A.P"

, and if you believed it to be true, you should have went after Battousai, as it could be argued that it was he who posted the first real serious post of the game, and not Strangercoug. In fact, Strangercoug was spot on when he said that you were guilty of what you accussed SC of, and in my book, even more so since your post came before SC's.

Despite this you actually seemed to be able to talk some sense with Post 49:

Firestarter:
"Hehe, Millar13, well done.

You've cracked the game, bravo...

Moreover, you've gone on to establish that a bit of pressure is scummy.

WRONG.

Pressure reveals quite alot, to ascertain who IS scummy under pressure/who IS town under pressure.
To be frank, there was no pressure at all, and your worry at appearing scummy if you had have voted is.. scummy

In the random stage no wagon will ever gather serious steam unless a scumbag does something catastrophic on their part.

So I would ask you to relax, and not get too carried away with yourself right now.

At this time, only scum can be sure of who's who, and with the little information gathered thus far, tonwies have no clue.

But pressure leads to info, and info is good for townies.

Morning tea seems to be done alright, and for this time I shall..

UNVOTE"

Is this meant to be part of your case?
In a previous post to mine, Post 47, you state this...

I don't want to vote now...because the "random stage" has stopped, and we are now very much past morning tea and gone into the seriousness of Day 1. Votes should be value not thrown around with no real reason.

In my post, I clearly state that I thought the RVS stage was done, "

Morning tea seems to be done alright

"
Your post previous referred to such. I removed the vote on you because we were moving to the serious part of the game.
The only difference being, you did not participate in the RVS.

Then in Post 73 you vote for a

4th time

although this time it is very much for reason outside the came, or for reasons of "bollox-ology" what ever that words is actually meant to mean I do not know.
Only two posts later you have then unvoted me, and put me on MAJOR FOS. Making you undecisive but also seeming as the fact that pacman didn't actually seem to back you reason, as the reason why you felt you need to back off yourself.

Ok, Ive given the reason for this at least twice, once more shouldn't hurt...
my interaction with Sajin before voting/unvoting you are as follows.

I do agree on the amount of scumminess of millar13. A townie would not fear nearly as much about the RV stage as I have posted before. I would possibly be willing to push this to a soft claim, but before that I want posts by those who have not posted.

Slight FOS:
Rage
Pacman
Issac
Dubya


Now granted its Easter, thus the slight fos. I understand if you have not posted much as of yet. But come tuesday, I would like opinions from these people before this goes ANY farther.

agreed firestarter?

I would prefer full participation from all, but since its a holiday period, grace is fairly granted.

At this point, I made an agreement NOT to let anything go further...
But with your posts, Posts 70 & 72, you were talking nonsensically. 2 broken fingers accounting for mistakes, and then this...

Basically if I make typing errors or, use the wrong word don't take it too mean something that it doesn't. Half full rather than half empty.

After the scumminess you portrayed, and the nonsense you posted afterwards, I placed my vote on you.

You state you were too quick to place the vote, when funnily enough this was the 2nd time you had already voted me. If it had been the first time it might have actually have made some sense, but second time is sort of suspicious.

I retracted the vote because I agreed with Sajin I would not go any further.
And... Why would an agreement at the first time of voting you, in the RVS, be any different to the 2nd time?
And why was it suspicious?

It wasn't until page 5 however, that any real strong feeling to actually vote for you came into frutition

Then at Post 103, you vote for the

fifth time

the 3rd time you have had a vote on me and seem to back it up with the fact that more people haved posted, even if it is only one post and therefore not really enough too:

I stated I would place my vote on you, what would you have thought if I didn't?
Like the agreement I had with Sajin, I also kept my word about placing the vote back on you. I posted this...

I retracted after I granted grace for the other players to post, and I assure you millar, my vote WILL be going back on you unless someone else is scummier/you become more pro-town.

The fact of the matter, and the main reason you are being voted by me is because no-one else is scummier than you right now, and has not been since I first stated I would be voting you.

Allow this post to actually occur. All that really happend was Rage, Korlash and Sejin surfaced for the first time (some more than others) but you didn't really take in what they said as you had already decided you were going to place your vote back on me either way.

3 players account for 25% of the players in the game. Since 6 players were already posting, those 3 brought it up to 9 players or 75% of the players in this game. I took into account what they said, but you remain top of my scum list.

Isaac made some good points, not all great or perfect, but some good points none the less and you didn't even challenge what he said but gave a week response of:

We just found millar13's scumbuddy...

That post is convincing to anyone, and is pretty feeble at attempting what ever it was that psot was meant to accomplish.

This has been addressed in my previous post.
What is "convincing" about it, and what am I attempting to do?

Then Battousai voted for you...and in many ways what was said in the start of Post 111 was exactly what you had done, as you have taken yourself from small tells and null tells to something much more open and readable. It was in many ways this post, that did enough to convince me that you were worth voting for. That is all I have against you at the moment.

Battousai's One-liner on me in 111 has been addressed in my Post 113.

I am not saying I think your 100% scum, but you 60/40 at the moment in my mind.

Covering yourself much?

Why I didn't give you a case straight away...simple. Because I was in the middle of writing it but also because I wanted to see your initial reaction. You are clearly someone who believes they should be in control.

Sorry, Im not buying this.
These are your posts after I requested your case on me...

You want my case....haven't you read anything I have posted earlier.
Haven't you read Battousai's post or Isaac's post.
The case is a collective case, and one that has grown since the start of the game. Nothing has changed, nothing knew has come to light. And you don't have the power to demand anything from me. If you don't know why you are seen as scum now, then I doubt you ever will.

&

I'm not refusing, I am just inidicating that you case is long-running. It hasn't stopped and it still continues. If you clearly believe that a strong case doesn't already exist against you then you are clearly deluded. Your own posts are very much a key part of this case. You in many ways have proven to be your own worst enemy.

I do not see anything in either post to suggest you were preparing a case, or otherwise.

Your case is full of accusations without any reasoning.
Alot of it stems from the RVS, and you give wrong information about when it ended and by whome, which messes up alot of what you say here.
There are alot of questions I'd like you to answer stemming from the above.
Alot of your posts are confusing.

[DrippingGoofball]

WAIT!

NO ONE HAMMERS RAJ until EVERYONE has weighed in on his claim.

EVERYONE. No exception.

MOD NOTE: I've talked to DGB, and this post was meant for another game. To my knowledge, DGB has no alts in this game. Please ignore this post.

[Battousai]

Vote: Firestarter

for post 108, OMGUS.

That along with your waiting to vote seems scummiest to me right now.

And how do you explain millar13 not even placing a vote yet?

Because you voted for millar before and took it off for others to post. To me, I think you wanted more people's opinions to support your vote. Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves. Millar, on the otherhand, hasn't voted at all as is part of his playstyle apparently, so that doesn't make him as scummy.

[millar13]

Firestarter I gave you case;

What I am not doing, is providing you data too look on and attempt to justify and attempt to correct in such a way that actually makes you look good in a better light.
The fact that you quoted me a number of times, and then you have written

Firestarter wrote:

indicates that you were either rushing or once again didn't check what you had written.

My case on you is out. And I highly doubt that my vote will chance anytime soon.

If

ANYONE ELSE

wants me to explain something I will do so, to the best of my ability. But Firestarter, you have what you wanted. Your getting nothing else off me. My mind is made up, and as of now I am now looking for those most likely to be your scum partner/s

[pacman281292]

Okay this is getting a little out of hand. First, I apologize for not posting sooner. I was waiting (yeah, lurking.. whatever you want to call it) for this argument (Millar being accused of starting seriousness when Millar accused Battousai of being serious) to actually get somewhere but that's probably not going to happen.

So instead of waiting for someone to push this crappy argument any further, I'd like to ask Millar a question or two:

@

Millar13

, should the random voting stage have ended when Battousai made a vote based on a sensical reason? If so, why does scum want to end the random voting stage with a serious vote? Also, I believe StrangerCoug asked this a couple times before but, what's really so wrong with making a serious vote? Sure, you've only seen scum do it, but why can't Town do it too? And finally, why did you choose not to participate in the random voting stage yet you say Town shouldn't feel awkward in it? What's your reason for not participating?

Q) Why didn't I take part in the random voting stage?
A) Previous experience, has shown me that people form "stand-offs" in the RVS for no reason other than random votes. For that reason, I don't think the RVS should even exist.

However it does so.

A) There is nothing wrong with town ending the RVS, I think I have since commented that I don't think Battousai is scummy.

There is nothing wrong with ending the RVS, but there is a number of way you can go about it. I just wrote it how I saw it

RVS is indeed VERY important, and IMO seriousness was too early. In RVS, you can see what does people do, and with it you can start with something, and the game becomes active. If RVS ends too early, you get very little to start with, and you get a very slow start.

We just found millar13's scumbuddy...

I hate this kind of posts. They are just nonsense OMGUS, and they are very scummy.
FoS: Firestarter.

WAIT!

NO ONE HAMMERS RAJ until EVERYONE has weighed in on his claim.

EVERYONE. No exception.

MATH FAIL
Or...

@MOD: Please votecount.

[StrangerCoug]

1.

I dont need to read it again, you explained that I answered about the vote/unvote of millar13, I wanted to know why you were still keeping an "eye" on me, as you did not make that 2nd point clear.

Your mouth was not where your money was, or however the saying goes. If you want to argue that you're not the kind of person that uses FoS's, then go straight ahead.

2.

This post came straight after Isaac's post attacking me with the exact same horseshit millar13 posted. Not only that, but there was very little content about anyone else.. very little. Sounded defensive of millar13, and I like to pressurise where I can.

Understood.

3.

At the time, millar13 was online with me, and we were posting within minutes of each other. Is it so unreasonable to think he was still there when I posted that post?
Not only that, but he blatantly refused to post his case as requested by me several times. This is clear SC.
You placed a HoS on me for asking for millars case, which he blankly refused to do, yet I get the HoS... ?????

I do not pay much attention to whether or not people are on, but nevertheless I think it's scummy to force people to do stuff or else. The two-hour time limit gave me that impression. What if you told

ME

"you have two hours to post a case on me or else" and I don't read it until after the two hours elapsed because I had to get off and let someone else have a turn (currently something I have to do), or worse yet, go to bed because I had to work early?

[Isacc]

Rather than responding to people individually, I will respond in general points to the various questions directed at me.

Ok I lied. I will respond to a few specific Korlash questions first:

Bad wording can be scum tells. Real typos aren't but I suppose some scum could use that excuse to cover up slips. I find it really weird you would put this immediately after "Fire starter is scum"... How is this hard evidence he is scum?

Did I say it was hard evidence? Did I say that was the driving point of my case? No. Firestarter's scumminess does not hinge on his "wrong word" argument.

How the hell do you know why firestarter did something?

Korlash, Mafia is a game where we analyze the reasons that people are doing their actions in order to deduce who is scum and who isn't. The entire game is about arguing

why

people do things. I don't know why Firestarter unvoted any more than you know why I didn't post an excessive amount of details in my accusaation.

However, in the same way that you are suggesting that my actions are with malignant intent, I am of the belief that Firestarter's unvote had nothing to do with letting more people post.

And finally, how is his attitude anti-town in you opinion?

This is a pretty easy one. Firestarter's attitude is anti-town because he is taking targets and trying to make them seem scummy rather than objectively analyzing.

Notice his hardcore push on Millar all game. Consistently making new accusations when old ones failed to stick. Rather than attempting to hunt for the scum, he has instead attempted to prove that Millar must be scum, even if that means reaching for new evidence. This suggests that he personally wants Millar lynched, rather than wanting scum lynched. Thus, attitude is anti-town.

The same can be said about you. You took firestarter's actions and instead of analysing them made up what you thought might be the truth and tried to pass them off as factual. You called his attitude anti-town but did not show why. And you called him flat out scum with some stupid little tid bit following it that i can't honestly see proving anything, much less justifying a claim of that sort.

First off, let's not drift so quickly to ad hominem, yes? Calling my tid-bit "stupid," is unnecessary and irrelevant. Tid-bits have feelings too, and mine prefers the term "special."

Second, you should see that my actions are vastly different than the ones you are referring to, especially if you have just read the earlier portion of this post. The part you quoted here referred to exactly what I just explained Firestarter was doing.



Anyways, continuing...

Isaac seems to think Im voting millar13 because he made a "typo"..... No, its more than that. He should read whats been written so far.
He seems to think I unvoted millar13 because it "wasn't popular"... No, I agreed with Sajin that I'd wait until others posted. The funny thing is that millar13 is MORE guilty of this, because of his unwillingness to vote me, and then doing it ONLY after others had done so.
Isaac also thinks millar is town due to "attitude"... Thats a new one to me, I must admit.
I accuse players of being scum based on their actions in the actual game we're playing in.. Am I missing something?
Isaac thinks my "attitude" is anti-town.. but does not state why??? So.. Why??

This is not a defense. This does nothing to counter any of my arguments.

Also, the whole "Millar didn't vote too!" is a classic attempt to bring others down with you. For one thing, not voting at all is completely different than voting and unvoting again. They suggest two very different things.



Also, who wants to be the third scumbuddy with me and Millar? Any takers? All you have to do is accuse Firestarter (or not find Millar obvscum) and you get a gold-star automatic scum label!

[millar13]

Isaac:
"Also, who wants to be the third scumbuddy with me and Millar? Any takers? All you have to do is accuse Firestarter (or not find Millar obvscum) and you get a gold-star automatic scum label!"

That is so true...and the worst thing about it is that Firestarter probably doesn't even know he is doing it.

[Gorrad]

Vote Count:

Firestarter(4): Sajin, Isacc, Battousai, Millar13
Korlash(2): Korlash, Pacman281292
Millar13(2): StrangerCoug, Firestarter
StrangerCoug(1): Afatchic
Dubya(1): GhostWriter
Pacman281292(1): Rage

Not Voting(3): Dubya

PLEASE NOTE: Please do NOT use bold outside of commentary on closed text unless it is a vote, unvote, FoS, etc. or a question/comment to the mod (me). This is to prevent posts like 126, where it is unclear whether or not a vote is meant, and for my own sanity. I will sometimes just browse the thread for bolded text and take note of that.

[Firestarter]

After millar13's last post, I propose a trade off with him.

Lynch me, and when I flip town, lynch him.

Are we agreed millar13?

Im happy to take a hit for town here, your play is unbelievably scummy.
Not only that, but town have alot of info to work off on others who have blatantly ignored what Ive posted throughout the game.

millar13... What you say?

[millar13]

That actually isn't the smartest move to make to tell the truth. As I have said earlier I think your 60% scum, and not 100% scum and so agree to such a "trade off" would not actually be viable yet.

Also, what you need to realize is that, in the possible case that you aren't scum. Which I have to admit is a possibility doesn't therefore mean that:

Firestarter = town therefore Millar13 = scum

All it means, is that you will be a town player that has actually made himself look scummy. And the reason why this is known, is because I am in fact not the only person that thinks this. If this was a simple one on one tactic then maybe a trade off could be considered but it isn't.

If you flip town, then it simply means that you aren't playing in the game in such a way that actually makes you look town.

And finally I would like to know how exactly my play is

unbelievably scummy

[Firestarter]

First of all millar13, answer my question in my response to your case that has fallen flat on its face.

Im not going to beat around the bush here anymore.

The questions in my post are easy to find, they generally end with ?

Please answer these, as all you've done is make accusations without reasoning.

When this is done, Ill post my case on you in a full clear and concise post.

I do not want anything else from you other than answers to my questions.

[millar13]

My case that has fallen flat on it's face. To be honest I don't think that you can judge that or not. I will show you why.

If you go to court, the person who the case is against is always go to deny the accusations whether they are guilty or not. My case stays strong dependent on how others respond to it. The fact that Strangecoug said this, pay attention to the Italic

Strangecoug:
"This is an awfully weak attack, and I'm hearing WIFOM bells go off.

The case itself is good, though.

This shows that the case it good, as it is someone personal opinion who is not directly involved within it. The fact that SC has a vote on me, further proves that in fact that case has not "fallen flat on its face".

As I said before, I am not amusing you by providing you another extensive post, when I have already told you how I feel. I really don't see the point of repeating myself twice on the same page. You post, as if you are control and I am meant to accept this and follow your every demand.

The problem is that you have actually not considered that I may be on the side of town, which is something that I am still very wary of and could very much be a possibility. This game isn't about Firestarter vs. Millar13 and the soon you stop playing like it is the better.

[millar13]

Firestarter:
"@ millar13

millar13 wrote:
Now you clearly are not just a plain vanilla townie...that is more than clear from post 121. Clearly you are sitting on some sort of power position (I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum) otherwise you wouldn't be so frustrated and resorting to using offensive language. Why would someone with no real power feel the need to swear and your such horrible and disgusting I do not know.


millar13, your making accusations, yet your not actually following them up with your reasons for them.
Please do this so I can answer them.....
1. How do you percieve me more than being vanilla townie from post 121?
2. How am I clearly sitting on some sort of power position?
3. You say you doubt me as pro-town, then you say Im "Concrete Scum"... Only scum can be concrete about a players alignment, I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion?
4. There is,however, one part I can answer here, and its your accusation of me being offensive and frustrated.
Yes, I was frustrated because you refused to even say you'd post a case on me after I asked you. Twice.
If I was offensive, which I dont believe I was as I did not directly insult you, then I apologise.
Abusing someone or bringing their family members into a game is not something I ever do.

1) It is quite clear that in fact you don't actually read all the posts, and you seem to pick out through the ones that suit you best. If you had read Strangecoug's Post 127. You will noticed that I actually admitted it wasn't actually a good opening and it was slightly floored.

Millar13:
"in many ways the start was not good, but it was edited after the use of the bad language. I am not someone that really back it up, or see it as something that need to be used in these environments without good reason. I can see why you could see this as scum-play, but maybe it comes down to the fact that I couldn't believe that someone who was vanilla would actually think so highly of themselves, when in the majority of games. Mafia member have through their own realization or not shown to be "up their own arse" so too speak.

Other than that, I think my reasons to vote Firestarter are strong enough at the moment.

2) I didn't say you were sitting on one, but rather you are acting in a mannerism as if you were.

Firestarter:
"3. You say you doubt me as pro-town, then you say Im "Concrete Scum"... Only scum can be concrete about a players alignment, I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion?"

Could you twist me word anymore? What I actually said was.

Millar:
"(I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum)

This statement doesn't not mean that you are definetly scum, what it means if you read it all is that I don't see how you can be pro-town therefor as a simple pro-town you must (or at least seem) to be scum. You if you are not one, then you must be the other. Please don't twist my words or mis-quote again. Doing so is incredibly idoitic.

You want me to clarify this post:

Millar:
"
The likelihood is that you actually believed in our back-and-forth confrontations that with the introduction of other players I would come off looking worse, and they would put their votes on me rather than yourself.

What you have to understand, is that a large amount of my case is built upon the fact that people actually see you in the same way as I do...although their views are more valuable as they are very much out-side the box and therefore provide me with a more rational view of things

"

What this means is quite simple.

My case doesn't work with just my own opinion. The fact that Battousai and Isaac also appears to be on the same wavelenght as me (NOTE THIS IS NOT A WAGON, SO DON'T CLAIM IT IS) was a clear sign to me that I wasn't the only person to think you were coming off looking like scum. The reason their views are more valuable, is because are are indirectly involved and so their view are not biased. Easy enough to understand.

Post 49 is not part of my case to why you scum, but rather making the point that there is a hint of town to you. I don't have complete scum tunnel vision of you, as I have explained before with my 60/40 perspective.

Your second vote was not part of the RVS, because the RVS had very much ended when Battousia voted for me for "applying tactis" Saying otherwise, is illogical.

You want to know what is:

Firestarter:
"What is "convincing" about it, and what am I attempting to do?"

Millar:
"Isaac made some good points, not all great or perfect, but some good points none the less and you didn't even challenge what he said but gave a week response of:

Firestarter wrote:
We just found millar13's scumbuddy...


That post is convincing to anyone, and is pretty feeble at attempting what ever it was that psot was meant to accomplish.

The fact that you made a one lime assumption, that just because another person thinks your scum you actually mirror it with a blatant OMGUS and make the claim that "they must be Millar's scummy buddy". That was scummy to say the least.

That is all your getting from me, you are in fact very lucky that I changed my mind and decided to 'cater to your needs'. Don't expect the same again.

[Firestarter]

Please answer these questions regarding accusations you made of me.
You still have not done so...
They are part of "Your case", and you have not explained how you've come to any conclusions.

1.

How do you percieve me more than being vanilla townie from post 121?

2.

How am I clearly sitting on some sort of power position?

3.

You say you doubt me as pro-town, then you say Im "Concrete Scum"... Only scum can be concrete about a players alignment, I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion?

BTW.. this...

1) It is quite clear that in fact you don't actually read all the posts, and you seem to pick out through the ones that suit you best. If you had read Strangecoug's Post 127. You will noticed that I actually admitted it wasn't actually a good opening and it was slightly floored.

Ive read every post in the game. Ive answered every question asked of me.

4.

How have you come to a conclusion that Ive only read certain posts?
I mean, most of your case has been explained in individual posts made in the game, yet you choose to ignore them...
And I take it you meant "Flawed" rather than "floored?
And I agree, it is flawed, and wrong.

******************************

This...

2) I didn't say you were sitting on one, but rather you are acting in a mannerism as if you were.

But prior, you posted this...

Now you clearly are not just a plain vanilla townie...that is more than clear from post 121.

Clearly you are sitting on some sort of power position

Contradiction, you lied about NOT saying I was sitting on a power role, when in fact, you did. As of yet, I still have had no reason from you as to what you came to this conclusion.

****************************

Firestarter:
"3. You say you doubt me as pro-town, then you say Im "Concrete Scum"... Only scum can be concrete about a players alignment, I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion?"

Could you twist me word anymore? What I actually said was...

"(I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum)

I did not twist your words, More lies.
You can again clearly see the posts you and I made above.
Its a FACT that scum are the only faction in a town v scum mafia game that know alignment.
Again your phrasing is way off.
You doubt me as town usually equates that you have less doubt in me being scum.
Not >> I doubt you are town, you are therefore concrete scum.

******************************

My case doesn't work with just my own opinion. The fact that Battousai and Isaac also appears to be on the same wavelenght as me (NOTE THIS IS NOT A WAGON, SO DON'T CLAIM IT IS) was a clear sign to me that I wasn't the only person to think you were coming off looking like scum. The reason their views are more valuable, is because are are indirectly involved and so their view are not biased. Easy enough to understand.

The fact is millar, you called me likely scum in your 5th post, after my first 4 posts, which were in the RVS, like it or not.
Your case goes back way further than Isaac's or Battousai's posts.
In any case, one or both could be a scumbuddy, and in the event of that being the case, well, you know where Im going with this.

*******************************

That is all your getting from me, you are in fact very lucky that I changed my mind and decided to 'cater to your needs'. Don't expect the same again.

Why do you want to keep schtum as much as possible?

If you firmly believe in your case, or that of others, than posting info is good, regardless if your wrong or right.
Alot can be extracted from posts made, its what town have to go on in finding scum.

One more thing that needs to be said is that my first post out of the RVS that was serious was my 5th post, Post 49. I unvoted here because we were out of the RVS.
Not, as you claim, any of my first 4.

My full case on you will be posted today at some point, I dont have time for it now.

[millar13]

I answer all your questions...so be just deal with it. You already have you answers.
I am not giving you an in-depth 101 on how I play this game and what tactics I used to scum-hunt. This isn't just about you or me so deal with.

From now on I am IGNORING you. And yes you did twist me words especially concerning the "concrete" bit. Stop with your spin and accept your fate

[Sajin]

I like how firestarter bolds right after the mod warns about it....

[millar13]

it is because he only reads the posts he wants too...and even then, he chooses to read them in a way that suits "his game"