Newbie 774 - Spegezzironi: Game Over! TOWN WINS!

[Rustythepirate]

For clarification,

Mod, do votes need "Vote:" before it to count?

[Rustythepirate]

Possible numbers were #1-9.
Each number had an equal chance of being picked. (random.org)
Ran the random function 48 independent times, with the following results.

Trial 1
Mean = 4.65
Mode = 4
Median = 4

I then ran the random function 24 independent times.

Trial 2
Mean = 5.13
Mode = 2
Median = 4

I then ran the random function 9 independent times.

Trial 3
Mean = 3.78
Mode = 4
Median = 4

I took the mean of the means, the median of the medians, and mode of the modes.

Mean Mean = 4.52
Median Median = 4
Mode Mode = 4

I then discarded all of that data and decided to

Vote: Johoohno

.

[Rustythepirate]

I've obviously nailed your scum-partner, and now you're just trying to get rid of me. It's not going to work.

Confirm Vote: Johoohno.

I'm wondering why my name is in red in the above vote count.

[Rustythepirate]

Was joking. And I understand why you dislike random votes. I think they're a necessary evil, but I still don't like them (in fact my post was an attempt to mock the way people make random votes via random.org). Oddly enough I saw a game in which you started the game by asking everyone a question, which effectively eliminated the random voting stage.

[Rustythepirate]

Which I noticed, and watched as the town fell over themselves. Anyway you don't have to worry about me not taking the game seriously, as once the game gets going I take the game very seriously. This is the first game that I've started (not replacing) so I wanted to make a joking post for fun.

[Rustythepirate]

So Rusty was that a FoS for Sensfan?

If I meant to give SensFan a FoS I would have done do (disregarding the fact that I usually dislike FoS's). What gave you the impression that I meant to give him one?

FoS: Lamont_Cranston

[Rustythepirate]

If you're joking, I'll warn you now that you should be more serious.
If you're not joking, please tell me why in the world you think Johoo and I are buddies due to my dislike for random votes.

Was joking.

This is the first game that I've started (not replacing) so I wanted to make a joking post for fun.

Did you miss this? Or intentionally disregard it?

[Rustythepirate]

Unvote, vote ckool

The dynamics have changed

I assumed this was a joke/random vote, but you later say

Besides, I really don't like random voting

Was your vote joke/random or wasn't it? And if it wasn't, why did you vote for him?

I consider my vote pro-village.

Perpetuum, care to explain your vote for for tree?

This makes it look even more so that your vote had a purpose or reason. Also how could you interpret Perpetuum's vote anything other than a random one? He voted him for having the best username. Do you honestly think he had a reason other than a random vote?

Do you find ckool5000 scummy for using random.org as a basis for a vote? You also said scum don't need to use random voting and should use a bandwagon vote instead. However you yourself joined a bandwagon. By your own reasoning, wouldn't ckool5000 be town for using random voting and

you

be scum for joining a bandwagon?

ckool5000, why did you unvote?

[Rustythepirate]

Unless you agree with the person, you shouldn't feel compelled to vote/unvote based off of another's opinions.

[Rustythepirate]

After seventy-two (72) hours of not posting you will be prodded.

The day started on April 17, and it's April 19. Lailai is not required to post for another 24 hours or so. Thus no prod yet.

[Rustythepirate]

The only situation I could see myself legitimately FoS'ing is in lyol and I didn't want to risk the scum jumping on my vote. Or if I was voting someone else, as SensFan said. But I think you can just as easily lay out the reasons you suspect someone and say that they look scummy. Giving your suspicions a title is unncessary extravagance in my opinion. In addition, a FoS doesn't apply the pressure that a vote does, thus using it as town is like choosing to wield a cattle-prod instead of a sword.

It might be random.org or it might be random.org (edited by ckool). I don't just buy into the paste which can be faked so easily. I can run 100 of those in a row with your name at the top.

Am I correct in understanding that you think he faked his random.org post? What scum motivation would there be for doing this? If he really wanted to get treeshavenotongues lynched as scum, he could have just picked him for any other random reason, like having the "best username".

[Rustythepirate]

Unvote

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

ckool5000, what does meh mean? Is it different from "Fine by me"?

He had posted NO content

Either had Sotty7, treeshavenotongues, Johoohno, Perpetuum, lailai, or even you. How much content do you expect from page 1?

& made a huge deal out of using random.org

How did he make a huge deal out of it? All he did was make one post with his results from random.org.

to choose his post FOR him thus alleviating any responsibility for his vote (supposedly).

It's the random voting stage. It's supposed to be random. Is Sotty7 scummy for voting ckool5000 randomly? Is Perpetuum
scummy for voting treeshavenotongues randomly? Answer = no.

[Rustythepirate]

Didn't like the decision to delete the post, but that's your choice and you're the mod so I'll respect it.

I didn't like the decision to ignore rule A-3. Please PM me with any administrative corrections/requests. Do not post such items in thread.

Based on the change of current events I am changing my vote to Johoolno to further investigate this voting dynamic.

What change in current events? You went from encouraging other players to vote ckool5000 to changing your vote to Johoolno. Johoolno had not posted to make you change your opinion. Why did you do this?

I disagree with Johoohno's assessment of SensFan, and his decision to judge someone's playstyle from

page one

is certainly strange.

[Rustythepirate]

This doesn't seem to be much to alleviate suspicion, the only singinificant bit I can see here being the comment on Lamont_Cranston following sensfen, this suggests to me perhaps Lamont realised that he was implying that he and senfen are both scum, when this is the case by following senfen, hence I suggest: (arrgh, more to write, but gtg)

unvote vote: Lamont_Cranston

I'm not entirely sure if I am understanding this correctly, but are you implying that by following him, Lamont_Cranston could be scum with SensFan? Because previously you were ok with following someone that is more experienced.

[Rustythepirate]

I think cpe genuinely believed his logic, it certainly seems that way. Granted it was flawed and SensFan is not scummy for having someone follow him and veer away, but I don't think cpe is scummy for his point. Having flawed logic isn't a basis for a vote.

[Rustythepirate]

Your logic is flawed. But don't get dramatic and give up by advocating your lynch, that is

not

good for the town as it eliminates the possibility of lynching scum. Don't appeal to emotion, many (including me) see it as a scum-tell.

[Rustythepirate]

The fact that you are at L-2 and two people that aren't voting for you have named you as their greatest suspects doesn't make you want to defend yourself? If you want more reasons, here you go.

You have followed players rather than posting your own unique viewpoints. Examples: voting ckool5000 immediately after SensFan, used SensFan's reasoning for voting for ckool5000 as your own, you strongly attack Johoohno while SensFan does, after players state that those you are voting for are not scummy you unvote/find another player to vote.

You accuse ckool5000 of lying on page 1 for supposedly faking his random.org results. Scum have no necessity to do this and you had no evidence to back up this claim. Worth noting is that ckool5000 did the random.org thing in Newbie 768 and was a townie.

When you are questioned, you avoid answering the question and instead cast suspicion on those questioning you. Example:

@ Lamont_Cranston: Do you see any risks with having ckool at L-2 on page two in a newbie game?

Now I'm wondering what the relationship might be between Johoolno & Ckool...

FoS:Johoolno

You refuse to defend your accusations when they are questioned. You don't explain why you are voting for someone when you vote for them.

When you do defend your reasoning much later on after intense questioning, you intentionally exaggerate to make your reasoning look valid. You use "random voting" as an example of possible scum behaivor.

What do you mean by this post?

He had posted NO content & made a huge deal out of using random.org to choose his post FOR him thus alleviating any responsibility for his vote (supposedly).

Though you were intent on ckool5000 being lynched, you advocate for Johoolno's lynch and vote for him, telling the town

However I just want to point out that I think the village will benefit from a vote on either ckool or johoolno at this time.

Yet you then state that you are sure he is town.

I'm sorry but I don't think Johoolno is scum. I'm practically certain he's village in fact.

You also claim that ckool5000 is town as well after attacking him strongly.

Before CPE arrived, I became convinced that the two BW choices were both Village.

Is there anything worth defending here?

[Rustythepirate]

cpe, what

specifically

made you unvote Lamont_Cranston?

Also for those that needed more evidence of Lamont_Cranston, you should probably have a great deal of it by now.

[Rustythepirate]

I am hunting scum my votes (in round 1) provide pressure towards that end. It doesn't make sense to come out and say so while I'm doing it.

I think you're lying. Why then did you say the following things?

It might be random.org or it might be random.org (edited by ckool). I don't just buy into the paste which can be faked so easily.

My vote was not random.

He had posted NO content & made a huge deal out of using random.org to choose his post FOR him thus alleviating any responsibility for his vote (supposedly).

My opinion is that your vote is better placed where you had it; i.e. on ckool.

AND USED RANDOM.ORG TO "PICK HIS VOTE FOR HIM"

All of these quotes would indicate that you legitimately believed him to be scummy when you voted for him. But now you are claiming that you only voted him to see his reaction?

[Rustythepirate]

You may have noticed that I ceased voting for you some time ago, haven't mentioned your name since & publicly stated the dynamics hand changed.

But here you are adding your name to a village BW...

So people are only allowed to suspect those that suspect them?

[Rustythepirate]

How many times do you have to confirm a vote, Lamont_Cranston? The more you confirm it the less significant it becomes. And muzzz is right, if you genuinely think SensFan is scum, the pro-town thing to do would to be to try to convince the rest of the town that he is scum - not give up and stop talking to him. Generally whenever someone decides to stop talking to someone completely in a game I vote for them as it's a scum-tell to me.

[Rustythepirate]

Currently under the weather of sorts. Once I can I will be looking back over day 1.

Same. I have a horrible combination of spring allergies and some sort of cold. Once I'm more able I'll actively re-read and contribute.

[Rustythepirate]

Vote: Johoohno

[Rustythepirate]

Ckool5000 not knowing the NK = null-tell. Also I'm not entirely sure why you posted that, semioldguy - why was it necessary to make that opinion public? It read to me like you were reassuring/coaching him or something.

@SensFan - Generally, the attitude

you think ckool5000 is faking was prevalent in a game I had with him in which he died as town, so I'm inclined to accept it.

[Rustythepirate]

@ Rustythepirate:

Why do you think muzzz was killed?

Muzzz was scum-hunting and had no suspicion on himself, and thus was a great risk for the scum. Also the only person he was really connected to was Lamont_Cranston, and he was lynched, so it offers little information for the next day to help the town. Why do you ask, and why do you ask me?

[Rustythepirate]

Scum can have sound logic on one thing and use crap logic for another - they are not mutually exclusive. If your real intention of asking me why muzzz was killed was to see if my case on you was logical/illogical, you should have just asked why I voted for you.

Anyway it is a real vote - as in I think you are the scummiest at the moment. Will explain later.

[Rustythepirate]

You don't normally like FOS's but you FOS LC here...? At this point you only had a random vote on Johoohno, why not just switch votes?

So your FOS of LC wasn't legitimate? Cause right now I don't see why you would “seriously” FOS someone while keeping a random vote on someone else.

I was playing to the irony of saying that I don't like FOS's and then FOSing, so yes it wasn't serious.

Generally whenever someone decides to stop talking to someone completely in a game I vote for them as it's a scum-tell to me.

How is that a scum tell? It feels like you are just finding anything/everything you can to make LC look more and more suspicious.

If someone refuses to listen to someone attacking them, I find it to be a convenient way for scum to avoid attacks, and also a blatant appeal to emotion/inexperience. And this isn't simply an attempt to make LC look more suspicious - I've done this in other previous games and I still believe it.

I've been pretty busy so the time between I voted Johoohno and when I explain it was a little longer than I desired, but still, I don't believe that one has to immediately explain when one votes for someone. The content-less vote can provide reactions from players that can be useful, and I was always going to explain it anyway.

Johoohno reads scummy to me. He is asking questions to appear pro-town but don't actually help the town or have any content. This appears as a scum tactic from experienced players I've seen - ask questions and appear helpful without actually helping the town in your questions and avoiding suspicion. Also, when he criticizes semioldguy, he does it in a way that includes a qualifier that allows him to slightly attack someone without committing to it. This allows him to cast suspicion on multiple players without having to take the responsibility for it. I agree with Sotty7 in that the attack on semioldguy is hypocritical.

[Rustythepirate]

Rustythepirate:

I got a really good town feel of Rusty at the start of D1, but as time went by he seemed a bit more scummy. D2 he voted for me early on and then didn't put out a reason for it until asked for it by both me and sotty7. It felt almost as if he wanted to check out if others would join on this (like cpe just followed on SensFn's ckool vote). I wouldn't be very surprised if he was scum.

Why do you criticize my vote on day 2 but not SensFan for his? Also, what examples do you have of me of time going by in which I seem more scummy?

[Rustythepirate]

If you want the votes for reference purposes, I've been keeping track. I'm not giving the reasoning behind the votes because I don't presume to read minds, and people should give their own reasoning for their votes and shouldn't need others to explain it for them. Also not including unvotes. Bold are confirmed town.

Day 1

[mrow]Voter[col]Lucky Recipient SensFan[col]Sotty7 SensFan[col]Rustythepirate Rustythepirate[col]Johoohno semioldguy[col]

muzzz

Lamont_Cranston

[col]SensFan Johoohno[col]Rustythepirate

muzzz

[col]semioldguy Sotty7[col]ckool5000 ckool5000[col]

muzzz

SensFan[col]ckool5000

Lamont_Cranston

[col]ckool5000 ckool5000[col]

muzzz

Sotty7[col]

Lamont_Cranston

SensFan[col]Johoohno Rustythepirate[col]

Lamont_Cranston

Lamont_Cranston

[col]Johoohno cpe[col]Johoohno

Lamont_Cranston

[col]cpe cpe[col]

Lamont_Cranston

SensFan[col]cpe

muzzz

[col]

Lamont_Cranston

(L-1) SensFan[col]

Lamont_Cranston

(L-1) cpe[col]SensFan

Lamont_Cranston

[col]SensFan ckool5000[col]

Lamont_Cranston

(L-1) semioldguy[col]

Lamont Cranston

(L-0)

Day 2

[mrow]Voter[col]Lucky Recipient Rustythepirate[col]Johoohno SensFan[col]ckool5000 cpe[col]ckool5000

[Rustythepirate]

Johoohno

, what is your opinion of cpe?
&

cpe

, what is your opinion of semioldguy?

[Rustythepirate]

cpe, when you voted for SensFan yesterday, you stated this.

I agree on the suggestion of SensFan aggression, especially having been the target of it...

VOTE: SensFan

This suggests that the reason that you voted for him yesterday was for his aggressive playstyle. Why do you not think he is scummy any longer? Your case on a connection between Lamont_Cranston and SensFan does not seem to be the reason you voted for him, because you had acknowledged that it was unlikely before you voted.

[Rustythepirate]

Hmm okay. The reason for the FOS felt serious to me at least.

I should clarify. I still thought he was suspicious, but I just threw the FOS on there for show.

Which games?

Newbie 741

PhilyEc, the second you start ignoring another player is the second I vote for you. No matter what else I think of you, if you intentionally ignore another player, I will vote for you on principle and as an obvious scumtell. So keep cranking out those answers.

I think I've said it in other games as well, but I couldn't find it when I looked. Either way, the above quote should be pretty telling.

Have you done this before in other games or are you just latching on/following Sensfan and his reasoning?

Neither, I've played only a few games and this is the first in which I've done it. This is because this is the first game that I've started - the rest I have replaced, so it was already far enough into the game that it would either have no positive effect or be dangerous. And to the second part of you question, no, unless "following" is agreeing. Also worth noting is that he did a contentless vote directly after me, not vice versa. Of course he did this the day before, but I still maintain that I simply agree with his reasoning, not that my reasoning is based off of his. I've seen it done by town in other games, and ones I've been in as well.

That said Rusty pulling up cpe's change of heart surrounding Sens and cpe's backtracking around that is scummy to me.

How so?

[Rustythepirate]

He's got some great thinking, but he's suspicious for it?

[Rustythepirate]

That's the point, the "show" was the irony of saying I didn't like FOS's and then FOS'ing. It's like if I were to say I didn't like random voters while random voting myself - a joke. The suspicion was genuine.

Your next attack on me is bogus and I will tell you why.

I find it odd that after he was put to L-1 you were quiet, until Sotty7 unvoted putting him back at L-2 which is when you started to press the case a little more again against him.

Lamont_Cranston was put at L-1 for the first time by SensFan on April 23, 8:33 am. He was unvoted by Sotty7 at April 23, 11:44 am. You are saying that the fact that I didn't post for those three hours is suspicious.

I repeat - you are saying that the fact that I didn't post for a period of

three hours

on a game of

online mafia

is suspicious. Do you want me to explain why this is ridiculous, or can I assume it's so obvious that I don't have to explain why?

When ckool5000 voted him to L-1 once more you were quiet again, or didn't press nearly as hard in the L-1 situation as you did previously for most of the rest of the day.

Wrong. Posts 219 and 247. You hammered shortly after that.

[Rustythepirate]

Bah. That's weak and you know it. The second part of your argument was mostly dependent on the first, so now that the first is gone the second is weak by comparison.

If the posts were smaller, that doesn't mean they were weaker. You can make a stronger point in one simple concise sentence than a whole paragraph of observation.

[Rustythepirate]

semioldguy, I think you should hold SensFan to the same standard as myself if you want to criticize me for having less words while he was at L-1 the second time. He posted even less than me after he put him at L-1, saying he supported a lynch. I don't think he is suspicious for this, but if you think I'm suspicious for this you should suspect him too. Why the different standards?

If Day 1 had gone on longer and I had stopped attacking him for a longer period of time, you may have a case, but I attacked him on the same day that you hammered - you don't really have a case on me trying to distance myself from the responsibility of the lynch. Especially when I said the day of the lynch...

Generally whenever someone decides to stop talking to someone completely in a game I vote for them as it's a scum-tell to me.

Speaking of SensFan, the last time he posted was five days ago.

[Rustythepirate]

Nevermind, I should have checked his signature.

[Rustythepirate]

Also: I'm a page and a half back yet, and I don't have the time right now to get up to date with everything. I'm hoping for the coming week to lend me more time for this game, but I'm not certain it will (though after that things should clear up a bit).

I realize what being busy can do to the ability to play mafia, but we only have a little over a week left. You are still one of my suspects, so I request that you get your analysis/opinions/whatever in at least before the weekend. I don't want you to be able to slip by at the end of a deadline with no contribution if you're scum.

[Rustythepirate]

You may have noticed that I ceased voting for you some time ago, haven't mentioned your name since & publicly stated the dynamics hand changed.

But here you are adding your name to a village BW...

So people are only allowed to suspect those that suspect them?

How many times do you have to confirm a vote, Lamont_Cranston? The more you confirm it the less significant it becomes. And muzzz is right, if you genuinely think SensFan is scum, the pro-town thing to do would to be to try to convince the rest of the town that he is scum - not give up and stop talking to him. Generally whenever someone decides to stop talking to someone completely in a game I vote for them as it's a scum-tell to me.

----------------------------------------------------

I don't agree that these are less in pressure. 219 is smaller, but I think ckool5000 sig'd it at one point in time. Especially with 247, I don't see how you could legitimately push the argument that I was trying to back away from his lynch.

If you want to refute, then make the argument that it wasn't less pressure rather than deflecting and defending post size which was not the issue I had to begin with.

How do you define "less pressure" if not by post size? It is a vague term that can emcompass multiple meanings - frequency of attacks, size of attacks, how focused I was on him as opposed to other players, strength of arguments, ect. I don't know what you had an issue with unless you explain it in further detail - all I know so far is that you feel like it was less pressure. Unless you explain your feeling in greater detail, I don't see your logic behind your vote on me.

[Rustythepirate]

I continued pressure, though after your analysis I can see why you think it is less. The majority of the things I found scummy about Lamont_Cranston took place in the beginning of day 1, so as it progressed I made less arguments. His reasoning for having two bandwagons made sense, and DADV is actually a real concept for mafia. Still, I found him the most scummy at L-1 and had no objection to his lynch at the time. I am not trying to skirt my responsibility for the lynch - if I play another game in the future and someone acts similarly to Lamont_Cranston, I will probably find them just as scummy as I did in this game (granted I'd exercise more caution). If I had either stopped pressure or had redirected it without removing my vote, I consider that a scummy move, but the fact that I continued to put pressure on him should indicate that I was still partipating in his lynch. I wasn't given much time to continue my arguments, anyway. You are saying that the fact that I didn't pressure Lamont_Cranston more is scummy, but you yourself hammered saying that this is all the discussion we could get from that day.

[Rustythepirate]

1. either he is like that, trying to bring humour in the game
2. he uses it to seem less of a threat and that gives him mandate to just post to add some witty remark, without actually posting content.

He was like that in another game I was with him in, as townie. My impression is that it is sincere.

Sorry, for not posting, I've been reading the thread and not knowing what to say. I still don't know what to say.

Unvote

Vote: cpe

Start thinking.

[Rustythepirate]

Newbie 768. He didn't last long, though - he was lynched day 1.

[Rustythepirate]

Reminder - we have six days left, so if we don't want a bad lynch or a no-lynch we should make sure we continue contributing throughout the rest of the day. I don't see semioldguy and ckool5000 as significantly scummier than the rest of the town, and they would not be my first pick for a lynch today. Johoohno was my primary suspect, but his leaving makes me want to save him for tomorrow after he's replaced and we can get a new lead of information. Cpe seems to be taking advantage of the silence, so I'd like to hear contributions from him.

[Rustythepirate]

Seeing as we're not getting an extension and there are only 5 days left, we should start discussing who the best lynch would be for today based off of the information we have. Unless cpe contributes soon, he would be my first pick, since Johoohno will probably not be getting a replacement today based off of the mod's refusal of an extension.

[Rustythepirate]

After reading the rules regarding deadlines,

B-3. If a deadline is reached without a player receiving the majority of votes, the player with the current highest number of votes will be lynched. In the case of a tie the player who received the highest number of votes first will be lynched.

So it seems a no-lynch will not occur at deadline, my mistake. Still, it is important to continue to participate as the day ends as that is important both for maximizing our chances of lynching scum today and for reactions that could be important tomorrow.

[Rustythepirate]

I'm feeling a cpe/Santos pair, and though I disliked ckool5000 asking for semioldguy's "permission" to vote, the likelihood that cpe is voting ckool5000 as a way to protect his own lynch, coupled with Santos's defense of him and potential chainsaw vote (vote the one voting for your partner), makes me more willing for cpe to be lynched today than ckool5000. I initially suspected this pair earlier in the game when Johoohno was playing, with post 289. He gave a case on every player, except his case on cpe was only one line long, consisting of this...

cpe: He is basically following others on their choices.

When compared to his other points on players, this one stands out, because it allows him to potentially distance himself from cpe without actually risking cpe from getting suspicion on him. Johoohno doesn't include him on his scum-list in the same post. He didn't post much about cpe the entire game, and after I asked him about him, he explains cpe's behaivor as newbiness rather than scuminess, and compares cpe to himself in a previous game (presumably as town).

cpe has very rarely posted about Johoohno, and when he did it was neutral concerning Johoohno's alignment, and did not contain either support or criticism of him - in fact it seems as though he's intentionally ignoring him. Also as a very minor tell which should only be used when coupled with other suspicions, cpe randomly voted Johoohno in the beginning, which I've seen as a way for inexperienced scum to distance themselves in the beginning of the game. Also, all of his votes have been after another person votes for them, such as with Lamont_Cranston and ckool5000, and his reasoning is simply agreement of another player's reasoning, shown by the following examples.

I agree on the suggestion of SensFan aggression, especially having been the target of it...

VOTE: SensFan

I think I'm going to agree with Sens, the first thing you do when a new day dawns is look at who was killed.

vote: ckool

These reasons, as well as a general impression I get from his playstyle and diction, makes me think cpe would make the best lynch for today.

[Rustythepirate]

You agreed that it was ludicrous to have said that about Rusty, so you redacted your statement because it sounds like you just weren't expecting Rusty to be so spot on with a response like that. If I were scum and had said what you said, then I would be thinking 'crap! he caught me! Quick! Redact statement!'

Or if he was town and had said what he said, then he would be thinking "whoops, my mistake. Redact statement." Taking back a mistake is a null-tell.

[Rustythepirate]

What is a null-tell?

If I were town and said what you said, I wouldn't have been going after the most pro town people in the game, but rather, looking elsewhere. Hence, my earlier question as to why you were so sudden to change your mind about Rusty's alignment.

Null-tell means that it is neither a town-tell or a scum-tell. Or in other words, it is not indicative of any alignment.

Townies should suspect every player, and shouldn't avoid questioning players just because they appear pro-town. Good scum players will try to appear pro-town in order to avoid suspicion, so just because someone seems pro-town to you doesn't mean they are town. In my last game, I was sure Claus was town from his helpfulness and scum-hunting, but he was scum. You should never be sure of someone's alignment unless you've investigated them or they're dead.