Mini 776: End of the World Zombie Survivors Mafia: Abandoned

[Gateway]

Yeah Herodotus, that makes no sense. One, he sparked voting patterns and arguments with his plan. And the plan itself does not kick in until we start voting... which usually starts happening after people analyze voting patterns and arguments.

Maybe you just read it wrong, as it stands he is just giving us two lynches before the first night phase, perfection if you ask me.

[semioldguy]

I'm pretty sure Herodotus was referring to my post 11 and 12, but his argument about that still doesn't make much sense to me. Because the very thing he says I'm giving up is happening so I don't know where he gets that idea from

[Herodotus]

Voting patterns and arguments are our primary means of finding the scum, and SOG's

earlier suggestion

gives up that opportunity.

How has my suggestion given up the opportunity to see voting patterns and arguments? It certainly hasn't since I made the suggestion and it's barely been a page since then. If anything, it has helped cause some people to take sides of arguments. If you look you can see people giving their own opinions on things, taking sides on arguments and voting how they think they should vote; all after I made my suggestion.

In case it was unclear, I was referring to this:

Because it was selected at random and anyone wanting to get the gun may have other motives in wanting to take it or have it for themselves. Letting it stay with the person who was randomly selected helps keep others from trying to control where it goes.

My understanding of your idea was that we should all agree to leave the gun with Diamond because he was randomly chosen, and not consider other possibilities out of the fear of the gun falling into scum hands. But observing people trying to "take it or have it for themselves" or "control where it goes" is a great way to try to either find scum directly, or link possible scum partners together.

@Gateway: That's not what I'm talking about. You missed the part where I said I agreed with SOG's post 44; it's his earlier plan that I didn't think merited EvilEvilMatt's posts 19 and 24.

[Gateway]

Ah yes, it is late and I was mis-reading. I realize I was rewording what was already said, my mistake.

[semioldguy]

I knew what you were referring to.

Can't you see that even though I made that suggestion people are still going to chime in what they think about it and in essence they have been trying to "control where it goes" and that we can still get reads off of people based on their reactions to my suggestion? I've made a suggestion and given an opinion (just like anyone else might do) and people aren't going to just mindlessly follow the first thing they read. Please point out where people aren't trying to either "take it or have it for themselves" or "control where it goes" and where we can't start looking for scum or scumbuddies.

[Herodotus]

I'm pretty sure Herodotus was referring to my post 11 and 12, but his argument about that still doesn't make much sense to me. Because the very thing he says I'm giving up is happening so I don't know where he gets that idea from

Making the suggestion you made may have helped spark discussion (which sadly doesn't yet include everyone,) but if I understand your idea correctly, implementing it right away would have done the opposite.
My current evaluation is that you were tossing out a reasonable but suboptimal idea, but EEM illogically took it to mean that you were obvtown. So I'd rather not trust EEM's judgment.

To generate slightly broader participation:
@Amished: What are the most important things you would look for in choosing a player to give a 1-shot vig kill?

[semioldguy]

I think it's kind of narrow minded to think anything should happen right away in a mafia game on this site (with the exception of Frtitz in a game of Bad Idea Mafia ).

[Herodotus]

That's twice I've simulposted right after you.

What I'm trying to say is that your post 11 looked like you were suggesting "let's leave the gun with Diamond and not consider any other possibilities; otherwise the scum might get it." I don't know if you really meant it, but my point is that EEM's jumping on that as a town-tell was wrong. Would you agree?

Please point out where people aren't trying to either "take it or have it for themselves" or "control where it goes" and where we can't start looking for scum or scumbuddies.

This crosses the line, though. I didn't say that people aren't going to scumhunt, I said that following your reasoning in post 11 would decrease the amount of available information. Just like selecting a lynch randomly would.

[semioldguy]

I'd expect we'll get some more activity after the weekend from some of those who haven't shown up yet.

[Musher333]

@Gateway, when you say he missed the second person who posted if you look at the times they posted within a minute of each other so the post could simply have not been there when he voted and posted.

@Musher333
Diamon voted 27 minutes after the rules were posted, there is no way he happened to be writing his vote before the game started and missed the mod's post of "Don't Vote, Only Gun week one"

To me if a mod says in his very first flavor post of day 1 that there is no voting, and someone votes, I assume that character will be making decisions without proper reading. Is that a person we want having the ability at any time in the game to kill someone?

At this point I am not picky who gets it, I have not played with, or against any of you so I have no idea who's the best choice. I just know at this point Diamondilium is the worst choice. Please take the gun from them.

Sorry, but there can be no argument. Diamond screwed that one up!

I thought you were pointing out (on top of that) that two people had posted posted when he said only one had and were saying that due to both of those things he was pretty ignorant when it came to the game at hand, i agree with the point you meant however that voting when you have been told they don't matter at this point then saying it is due to not realising shows that he would not be good at making decisions and should not be chose to have the gun.

[Musher333]

My previus post was before reading what has happened in pages 2-3, i agree with the logic of saving our lynch and whoever has the gun to kill the person but one question i have is do we know if night will not happen after someone is shot?
Due to his logic and him coming up with this idea i think that semioldguy should have the gun as he seems to have a good grasp on how things work so

Ungun Gun:semioldguy

.

[evilevilmatt]

I rearranged your questions a little bit, hope you dont mind. All italics are mine, including answers.

A few questions:
a) Are you serious or joking around? It appears to me that you are serious but clarification is necessary.

serious

b) If you are serious, do you feel like we should give semioldguy the gun now? If so why now?

as opposed to when? I'm not following the question. I voted for to give it to him doesnt that speak for itself?

c)

Do you agree that we shouldn't tell the vig to shoot or that we should stick with the mods random vote.

I dont like the idea of controling the vigs actions. This also means I do not like Semioldguys new plan. more on this below

d)

If you are saying that you agree to stick with the mods random vote, then why are you voting for semioldguy and not the mod's random selection?

This should answer Herodotus too. In the information vacuum that we started the day in the best plan logically would be to go with a random choice. Semioldguy typed it in the thread before I could. Naturally I assumed like minds think alike and that Semioldguy is town. This plan got us out of the information vacuum and I placed my vote to give the gun to someone that I thought was a)logical and b)townish.

I dislike the new plan for controlling the vig. I will dislike any plan that calls for directing powerroles. We should be able to get the gun to someone thats town. Using the vig as a second lynch is like handing the powerrole right back to the scum as they can orchestrate a mislynch. (Not to mention the problems with getting people to come to an agreement for 2 lynches in three weeks.)

Speaking of disliking plans, Mr. Gateways lining up a vig lynch on day 2 is insane.

[evilevilmatt]

I apologize for the formatting above. I see now it looks terrible. I promise to use the preview button in the future.

[OozingGolfBall]

I'm not following the gun giving for oldguy.

[Gateway]

Here is the way I understand it. And the vig lynch day two with this plan is required EEM, I will explain.

Right now we want oldguy to have the guy, right before we do a lynch on day one, he will instead shoot the person at L-1. Basically doing the lynch we agreed upon as a majority anyways, and getting rid of a role that could be devastating in scum hands.

@ EEM: Insane, where is that logic coming from?
It was part of the plan, so let's see, we do the plan, person with the gun lies and shoots someone else... and we shouldn't lynch them? I think you are the one that is insane EEM.

That is not going to happen though and is a complete waste of an argument. Semi is clearly going to get the gun now, adding votes will speed it up so we can get to the lynching stage and start our scum hunting.

[evilevilmatt]

Here is the way I understand it. And the vig lynch day two with this plan is required EEM, I will explain.

Right now we want oldguy to have the guy, right before we do a lynch on day one, he will instead shoot the person at L-1. Basically doing the lynch we agreed upon as a majority anyways, and getting rid of a role that could be devastating in scum hands.

@ EEM: Insane, where is that logic coming from?
It was part of the plan, so let's see, we do the plan, person with the gun lies and shoots someone else... and we shouldn't lynch them? I think you are the one that is insane EEM.

That is not going to happen though and is a complete waste of an argument. Semi is clearly going to get the gun now, adding votes will speed it up so we can get to the lynching stage and start our scum hunting.

Required lynch my ass. What if the vig doesnt stick to your plan and shoots scum by using his own reasoning? do you still lynch him?

The more I think about it the more I hate this plan. I don't want the gun to be a pseudolynch. Let a vig be a vig.

@semioldguy : are you set on using the gun as a second day one lynch?

[semioldguy]

That is not going to happen though and is a complete waste of an argument. Semi is clearly going to get the gun now, adding votes will speed it up so we can get to the lynching stage and start our scum hunting.

I don't agree with this. We can't be entirely sure what is going to happen,

especially

since we haven't heard from everyone yet. It is not clear who is getting the gun, and to say so I think isn't good. We also don't necessarily want to speed it up as I'd like to hear from everyone who hasn't posted yet before the gun goes into someone's hands, as that is one more opportunity to get some information on everyone that could be wasted if we went through this too quickly. Whether something is the right choice or the wrong choice I think it would be best for everyone to share their thoughts as to how we each see things.

I see where EvilEvilMatt is coming from, and I'd agree (and already shared that part of that view in post 12) that if we knew that whoever had the gun was for sure town that their sole discretion can be preferable to the group decision. Because the judgment of one town player, rather than group vote, is less likely to be manipulated by scum.

[semioldguy]

@semioldguy : are you set on using the gun as a second day one lynch?

No, I am not set on that, but I don't think I dislike the idea as strongly as you do. I think it would be bad to set that plan into stone for a few reasons, one being that it may take longer than anticipated to come up with our first lynch target and we wouldn't want to enact that plan and essentially have no time for or actual lynch, which would basically just waste a kill and potentially create confusion. I think it could be something to be kept in mind in case a situation occurs where the town could benefit from it.

[Diamondilium]

Also @ Diamond: I do not think you are playing poorly in any way. I just (before semi's recent plan) wanted it in the hands of someone that doesn't miss a single word. It is to powerful. As it stands now, forget I said anything and we should go with semi's plan.

You can agree with that plan and join us in giving semi the gun then, right Diamond?

I certainly agree with the plan but I want to give the gun to some one who not only agrees to the plan, but is townie, and can think through situations. And, I'm not sure if semioldguy is the best candidate.

b) If you are serious, do you feel like we should give semioldguy the gun now? If so why now?

as opposed to when? I'm not following the question. I voted for to give it to him doesnt that speak for itself?

As opposed to later (from when you posted it), when all of the players had weighed in or at least there was more to analyze.

EEM, although there are disadvantages to the plan (namely scum influence on the gun-lynch), the benefits would outweigh the advantages. If the gun was just used as a one-shot vig, we won't have nearly as much information to analyze as we would if it is used as a lynch. Not only that, but if it is used as a lynch, there is less of a chance that the gun owner is killed or otherwise stopped by the mafia before he or she can fire.

[Gateway]

Exactly Diamond. I basically want the gun gone, in a townie's hands it can go either way, but in scum hands it will be a deadly weapon. Using it as an extra lynch (or just the lynch in general if we go to night phase) gets it off the table.

What I am saying EEM. Is right now. Let me use myself.
I get the gun and we all come to agree on the plan as a majority.
We decide to lynch Diamondilium (no reason, grabbing your name as I see it on the screen now) at L-1 I shoot someone else against the town's majority vote.

Hell if I was scum, I would shoot scum just to certify myself as a townie in the townie's eyes. So if the person with the gun (not a vig to me, as they could be mafia... and they can shoot in the day) shoots someone against the majority, you better believe I am going to push for their lynch.

Again I don't see that happening. So for now, since Semi is already getting the gun by the votes out there, scumhunting should be our new concern.

[semioldguy]

Something to be careful of with the gun: Since we currently have an even number of players at the beginning of the day, if someone is shot, it lowers the number to lynch by one.

For example:
Today we have 12 people, it takes 7 to make the majority and a lynch. When someone gets shot, we then have 11 people and 6 is now enough to make the majority. If someone was already at L-1 and the now dead person was not on their wagon, then the L-1 would turn into an instant lynch.

[Gateway]

I should add I am pushing behind the plan because I believe in it over all others offered (trusting a random person... come on, I'd rather it was gone)

If someone comes up with a new plan besides our current that possibly gives two lynches before a NK, and gets rid of the gun, by all means post it and I will jump behind it if I believe in it.

[evilevilmatt]

b) If you are serious, do you feel like we should give semioldguy the gun now? If so why now?

as opposed to when? I'm not following the question. I voted for to give it to him doesnt that speak for itself?

As opposed to later (from when you posted it), when all of the players had weighed in or at least there was more to analyze.

Kinda a null question as I dont have the power to give it to him alone so I wont bite. I placed my vote and I explained my reasons. That should be enough.

EEM, although there are disadvantages to the plan (namely scum influence on the gun-lynch), the benefits would outweigh the advantages. If the gun was just used as a one-shot vig, we won't have nearly as much information to analyze as we would if it is used as a lynch. Not only that, but if it is used as a lynch, there is less of a chance that the gun owner is killed or otherwise stopped by the mafia before he or she can fire.

I disagree. We would have more pinpointed information to analyze if one person is responsible for a death rather then a whole bandwagonful that needs to be sorted thru.
Second part is a valid concern.

@mod

what would happen to the gun if the gun holder were to be killed for any reason?

[gorckat]

GUN Count 2

semioldguy (4):

evilevilmatt, Gateway, kabenon007, Musher333

Lowell (1):

Lowell

Shinnen_no_Me(1):

Herodotus

Diamondilium (1):

semioldguy

Not Gunning (5):

Amished, Diamondilium, OozingGolfBall, Rishi, Shinnen_no_Me

@mod what would happen to the gun if the gun holder were to be killed for any reason?

Then the gun will not be usable.

[Rishi]

@mod

what would happen to the gun if the gun holder were to be killed for any reason?

Hmm. Do you know something? I don't see how anyone will die except through lynching.

@OGB - Why don't you think semioldguy should get the gun?