The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[dingoatemybaby]

Confirm vote: Dingo

Should this be taken to mean you are not willing to discuss why you are voting for someone, and that once you vote there is no point in providfing you with evidence?

You claimed I reacted to Pepper by calling him a liar and voting for him when I should have defended my position. As I showed you, I corrected him is SIX separate posts before accusing him of lying. Before voting for him.

Since your stated reason for voting for me seems to not be based on the facts of the discussion, it would be helpful if you explained why you are still voting for me.

[Mufasa]

According to the vote count from before dingo he had already voted for you and it seemed like he wanted to make sure you knew where he stands.

[Yosarian2]

Confirm vote: Dingo

Should this be taken to mean you are not willing to discuss why you are voting for someone, and that once you vote there is no point in providfing you with evidence?

No. It should be taken to mean that your last post, where you called him a liar like 5 more times even though he was clearly not 'lying', made me more happy about my vote on you.

You claimed I reacted to Pepper by calling him a liar and voting for him when I should have defended my position. As I showed you, I corrected him is SIX separate posts before accusing him of lying. Before voting for him.

But what you have not done is explained why you think he's scum. He may or may not be right about your motives; his suspicions of you look reasonable to me, but they may or may not be right. Either way, why do you think he's scum?

Since your stated reason for voting for me seems to not be based on the facts of the discussion, it would be helpful if you explained why you are still voting for me.

I am voting for you because you seem to be using your vote to "punish" someone for daring to question your motives, rather then using it for scumhunting; and because your general over-reactions, accuastions of "lying", and general attitude dosn't really make any sense to me from a pro-town persepective.

[dingoatemybaby]

Yes, I get that Mufasa. But it was in response to a very long and detailed post.

[dingoatemybaby]

No. It should be taken to mean that your last post, where you called him a liar like 5 more times even though he was clearly not 'lying', made me more happy about my vote on you.

He most clearly is. I get that you didn't want to read through the discussion again. But I really encourage you to. I don't just call him a liar. I quote his lies, explain why they are lies, and back that up with direct quotes.

But what you have not done is explained why you think he's scum. He may or may not be right about your motives; his suspicions of you look reasonable to me, but they may or may not be right. Either way, why do you think he's scum?

I HAVE explained why I think he is scum. His lies about what I have said, in order to make me look scummy, are scummy.

I am voting for you because you seem to be using your vote to "punish" someone for daring to question your motives

Really? Because when he questioned my motives, I simply tried to engage him in discussion. I know my post quoting the whole conversation is long. It is long because there were that many posts made before I voted for him. You have questioned my motives. Have I voted for you? Have I FOS'd you? No. Why? Because you have not done what Pepper has done, which is to constantly claim I have said things I have not said. I do think you honestly believe what you are saying. It is clear Pepper does not.

[dingoatemybaby]

I fail to proof read once again. Corrected for formatting.

No. It should be taken to mean that your last post, where you called him a liar like 5 more times even though he was clearly not 'lying', made me more happy about my vote on you.

He most clearly is. I get that you didn't want to read through the discussion again. But I really encourage you to. I don't just call him a liar. I quote his lies, explain why they are lies, and back that up with direct quotes.

But what you have not done is explained why you think he's scum. He may or may not be right about your motives; his suspicions of you look reasonable to me, but they may or may not be right. Either way, why do you think he's scum?

I HAVE explained why I think he is scum. His lies about what I have said, in order to make me look scummy, are scummy.

I am voting for you because you seem to be using your vote to "punish" someone for daring to question your motives

Really? Because when he questioned my motives, I simply tried to engage him in discussion. I know my post quoting the whole conversation is long. It is long because there were that many posts made before I voted for him. You have questioned my motives. Have I voted for you? Have I FOS'd you? No. Why? Because you have not done what Pepper has done, which is to constantly claim I have said things I have not said. I do think you honestly believe what you are saying. It is clear Pepper does not.

[Yosarian2]

He most clearly is. I get that you didn't want to read through the discussion again. But I really encourage you to. I don't just call him a liar. I quote his lies, explain why they are lies, and back that up with direct quotes.

(sigh) Ok, let me go into more detail:

Dr Peppers basic summery of your argument, here:

A) Percy is not moving his vote
B) Not moving your vote is a scum tactic
therefore the implication is drawn
C) Percy is using a scum tactic

Is completly reasonable. To be precice, A should have said "Percy said he was not going to move his vote", or something to that effect, but it was close enough for you to get what he was talking about.

You called A a lie, when it was actually pretty close to the truth; it wasn't precice, but since he was trying for more of a vauge summery then a actual quote, it wasn't that far off. You called B a lie, when it *is* the truth; I have no idea how you could consider that a lie at all, you pretty clearly stated that keeping your vote on a lurker is a scum tactic. And C clearly *is* implied by what you were saying; you *were* trying to imply that Percy was using a scum tactic (or was going to use a scum tactic, or was talking about using a scum tactic, or was thinking about using a scum tactic, or whatever); you WERE basically, more or less, semi-accusing Percy of being scum who wanted to keep his vote on a lurker wagon so he wouldn't have to comment on other wagons. And, again, I would be fine with you making that accusation, but I hate the way you seem to be running from your own words right now.

"Liar" is a very strong term in mafia, especally since the standard meta is "lynch all liars". When you keep repeating that someone is a "liar", when that does not seem not accurate, it makes me suspicious of you.

[dingoatemybaby]

To be precice, A should have said "Percy said he was not going to move his vote", or something to that effect, but it was close enough for you to get what he was talking about.

Ahh. This gets right to the heart of it. This "imprecision" is not incidental. It is not just an attempt to summarize my position. I corrected these sorts of misstatement over and over and over before deciding he was simply lying. He disputes my corrections. You don't need to logic your way from his actual words to "what he is talking about". He is saying exactly what he means to say.

See, this is not the fist time he has claimed I am trying to get PErcy to change his vote.

dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason

His claim that I am trying to get Percy to change his vote is the bases for many of Pepper's arguments.

Is there a scummier person here right now?

I have repeatedly asked dingo to provide a better target and he hasnt. dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason.

And there it is again. I have not once asked Percy to change his vote.

OK, one question. Why criticize him for his statement then?

You can see that Pepper's base assumption is incorrect, and you give him the benifit of the doubt, assuming he meant something other than what he said. But he consistently makes that same incorrect base assumption. THAT is why I call him a liar.

You called B a lie, when it *is* the truth; I have no idea how you could consider that a lie at all, you pretty clearly stated that keeping your vote on a lurker is a scum tactic.

No. I said that an unwillingness to move a vote off a lurker, regardless of what is going on in the game, is a scum tactic. I did not say that PErcy needed to move his vote to appear less scummy.

Percy himself has explained the difference.

And C clearly *is* implied by what you were saying; you *were* trying to imply that Percy was using a scum tactic (or was going to use a scum tactic, or was talking about using a scum tactic, or was thinking about using a scum tactic, or whatever); you WERE basically, more or less, semi-accusing Percy of being scum who wanted to keep his vote on a lurker wagon so he wouldn't have to comment on other wagons. And, again, I would be fine with you making that accusation, but I hate the way you seem to be running from your own words right now.

Could be scummy. Could be mistake. Could be a bluff. I'm through quoting my actual words back to you. My position has been completely consistent. Apparently my actual words don't matter though. You've decided that the disconnect between what I said and what Pepper claims I said doesn't matter because I was secretly trying to say something I never said and Pepper meant to say something other that what he said.

"Liar" is a very strong term in mafia, especally since the standard meta is "lynch all liars". When you keep repeating that someone is a "liar", when that does not seem not accurate, it makes me suspicious of you.

Be that as it may, here are a couple other "misrepresentations" from Pepper.

dingo, I find that accusation of Percy not contributing to be unfounded.

I never said Percy was not contributing.

That is complete crap. Percy is actively contributing to other conversation.

I never said anything about Percy not contributing to the conversation.

dingoatemybaby: Look at Percy now. He is actively participating while following another lead.

Again, I never said Percy was not participating.

And so on. When I say that Percy's stance on what would cause him to change his vote is not sound, he says I am making "outrageous accusations".

Look, this is not some vendetta I am on. He is actively trying to convince the town that I have attacked Percy in ways I clearly never have. In this effort, he has actively and consistently lied about what I have said. I know "liar" is a strong word. I'm not going to avoid calling out lies simply because lies are considered anti-town. If we are not going to call out anti-town behavior, then why even bother playing?

[MikeSC6]

It's time I admitted that I haven't read through the whole of this discussion.

It looks, to me, like it was initiated based on a semi colloquiallism, this "excellent scumhunting" (I can't even remember which one of this quartet said what!) business. It seemed to me that it was just a figure of speech- if it got to a point where whoever it was refused to consider anything else because of the (lack of) actions of a replacements predecessor, then sure we should look into it. But it got pre-empted, and we have no idea whether or not that was the actual intention.

This whole thing seems, to me, to have had two consequences-

It's has made it painfully hard to keep up, and I can't blame tubby for not having read up yet- if he's still going to at all.

It's made it easy for Mufasa to avoid answering the questions still outstanding from weeks ago.

Neither of which helps.

[Dr Pepper]

Dr Pepper
(A) dingo accused Percy of using a scum tactic in voting for ZONEACE/tubby.

FACT

(B) dingo may be scum with ZONEACE/tubby.

FACT

(C) dingo has not presented a good enough argument to show that (2) holds.

OPINION

Therefore:
(D) dingo may have other reasons for holding (2) beyond those currently stated.

POSSIBILITY

Therefore:
(E) dingo may be discouraging a vote on ZONEACE/tubby, for scummy reasons.

POSSIBILITY

Thats a pretty good summary of my position.

@Dr Pepper: Post 769 is true, and I'm sure dingo would agree. That's why he voted for me - he thought I was using a scum tactic. This is a self-evident fact.

Here the problem. dingo doesn't agree with any of 769 even though it is clearly true and is trying to split hairs to get away from what he implied. dingo either can not or will not make any simple logical connections because they would make him look bad.

dingo, I have not lied about what you said. Yosarian sees my point. zwets and Jahudo understand my position and believe it to have town motives.

@ dingo: Why are you so thick headed and tunnel visioned that you cannot see what I am saying to be true?

MikeSC6 sums up my point pretty well

It seemed to me that it was just a figure of speech- if it got to a point where whoever it was refused to consider anything else because of the (lack of) actions of a replacements predecessor, then sure we should look into it.

But until then, its not worth criticizing Percy for the conditions in which he would not move his vote.

Now I understand dingo scum is angry, and rather than pony up, dingo is trying to spam the thread with accusations of lying to bury the truth. So congrats dingo scum, because now someone (MikeSC6) has admitted to not reading the thread fully. So dingo's strategy of talk until they give up is starting to work. dingo, do you understand that my vote on you is not only because of the initial 'not moving your vote under any conditions' idea, but also because of the accusations of lying and rampant spamminess.

@ Mufasa: I havent forgotten about you. The longer you wait to participate, the more likely you are to get lynched tomorrow. Up to eight players will be returning and probably wanting answers from you about day one. And I wouldn't mind lynching Mufasa myself if I ever finish this conversation. He has had plenty of time to answer but chooses not to. Heck, he even chooses to do nothing more than point out the obvious.

[dingoatemybaby]

MikeSC6 sums up my point pretty well

It seemed to me that it was just a figure of speech- if it got to a point where whoever it was refused to consider anything else because of the (lack of) actions of a replacements predecessor, then sure we should look into it.

But until then, its not worth criticizing Percy for the conditions in which he would not move his vote.

I ASKED him whether he literally intended to never move his vote regardless of what was happening in the game. It was merely asking him about this, and saying that it was a poor strategy if meant literally, that gave you your excuse to go into your long litany of lies about me. You immediately started claiming I was saying that Percy was not participating. You immediately claimed I was trying to get Percy to change his vote.

Now you seem to be admitting that the question of whether Percy really will not move his vote except under specific and hard to meet conditions is valid. Will you retract your lies?

[Dr Pepper]

@ dingo: Its valid after it happens, not before hand you fucking troll.

[Dr Pepper]

Congrats dingo, you got under my skin. I HATE having someone try to twist things around due to their own ignorance. By the way, I do mean you are a "fucking troll", dingo. I mean it in the most insulting way possible.

dingo gave his reasoning for questioning Percy, and I have shot it down. If Percy was going to do any of the scummy things related to not moving his vote until tubby/ZONEACE comes up with excellent scum hunting, then point them out when it occurs. Do not just hide behind thinly vieled accusations. Because the reasoning listed from the questioning is a very thinly vieled attack. And I called your ass out for it dingo.

And while dingo may have had one thing in mind while typing his intial concerns, it is very easy (and reasonable) to read it another way. And dingo's follow up statement about me mis-reping his stance, well what do you think of Percy now that Percy is staying the course with the stated strategy? Is Percy scum or town for not moving his vote until tubby/ZONEACE comes up with some excellent scum hunting? Becuase your earlier statement of players who dont move their vote regardless of what else is going on strongly implies that dingo thinks they would be scum for doing it.

dingo seems to draw conclusions from my statements and streches them in whatever direction dingo wishes until they become lies and label Dr P as a liar. dingo wont make a simple intelligent connection regarding his own words.

Now you seem to be admitting that the question of whether Percy really will not move his vote except under specific and hard to meet conditions is valid. Will you retract your lies?

I retract no lies because none have occured. dingo's concerns are only valid if the specific criteria listed within dingo's reasoning actually occur. I submit that none of those conditions have occured so the pre-emptive criticism on dingo's part is unwarranted.

Here's something for you dingo, my vote is staying on you until you are either lynched, or night killed. Criticize that jackass.

[Jahudo]

Let's let millar resolve this dispute

But seriously we need to hear from other people now. Barrylocke what do you think?
Where is tubby?

According to the vote count from before dingo he had already voted for you and it seemed like he wanted to make sure you knew where he stands.

Do you think this makes a certain player look more scummy or towny?

I don't like seeing ad hom. I used to think it was a solid scumtell from certain people but it hasn't been very reliable in other games. In this situation I think frustration is setting in on both sides, so it is less an alignment tell, but I can't be completely sure. What do other people think?

[Firestarter]

V/LA till Sunday guys.

[dingoatemybaby]

@ dingo: Its valid after it happens, not before hand you fucking troll.

Interesting. So if a player makes a pledge to act in a way that will be scummy under plausible circumstances, it is only legitimate to ask him about it if those circumstances occur?

@Pepper - If I compiled a list of questions that have been posted to you that you have chosen not to answer, would that increase the likelyhood you would respond to them?

[Haschel Cedricson]

tubby216 has asked to be replaced.

Sorry.

[dingoatemybaby]

Congrats dingo, you got under my skin. I HATE having someone try to twist things around due to their own ignorance. By the way, I do mean you are a "fucking troll", dingo. I mean it in the most insulting way possible.

You are as classy as you are intelligent.

dingo gave his reasoning for questioning Percy, and I have shot it down. If Percy was going to do any of the scummy things related to not moving his vote until tubby/ZONEACE comes up with excellent scum hunting, then point them out when it occurs. Do not just hide behind thinly vieled accusations. Because the reasoning listed from the questioning is a very thinly vieled attack. And I called your ass out for it dingo.

You created false positions for me and then claimed that anyone holding those false positions was scum.

And while dingo may have had one thing in mind while typing his intial concerns, it is very easy (and reasonable) to read it another way. And dingo's follow up statement about me mis-reping his stance, well what do you think of Percy now that Percy is staying the course with the stated strategy? Is Percy scum or town for not moving his vote until tubby/ZONEACE comes up with some excellent scum hunting? Becuase your earlier statement of players who dont move their vote regardless of what else is going on strongly implies that dingo thinks they would be scum for doing it.

Your inability to speak the truth never fails to amaze. No, I do not think that Percy's decision to keep his vote on Tubby through the day thus far is scummy.

dingo seems to draw conclusions from my statements and streches them in whatever direction dingo wishes until they become lies and label Dr P as a liar. dingo wont make a simple intelligent connection regarding his own words.

Note that you still refuse to provide a single example of me saying the things you claim I said. If my own words condemn me, why can't you find any to demonstrate it?

And maybe you can explain how you interpret this

I'm not asking him to change his vote.

to this

dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason.

Not that I expect you to even try to explain. You are so tied up in your web of lies that you can't answer even the most basic questions put to you.

Here's something for you dingo, my vote is staying on you until you are either lynched, or night killed. Criticize that jackass.

Yet another scummy tactic from a very scummy player.

[MikeSC6]

Guys, guys- watch this funny pussycat-

http://www.koreus.com/video/chat-1-2-3-soleil.html

Ad hominems are never fun, and while each of you seem to be absolutely certain that the others are intentionally misrepresenting each other, attacks aren't a good way to convince people who aren't already set. The last few posts haven't swayed me either way, at least. I'll read all the ones in between and see what I think on Sunday once I've got enough free time to slog through.

[MikeSC6]

And don't worry, it's a safe link. "Chat" means "cat" in foreign.

[zwetschenwasser]

WHOOA! Cut the ad hom, people, please.

[Percy]

Still re-reading, will post tomorrow.

[zwetschenwasser]

Is anybody there?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'm here.

This accelerating ad hom stuff between dingo and dr pepper is really getting frustrating, and it's going to just get in the way. It's actually possible they're both town just bashing heads, but dingo's reactions seem more scummy to me and Pepper's seem more town.

[Jahudo]

Actually yes, let's go back and focus on this part.

Note that you still refuse to provide a single example of me saying the things you claim I said. If my own words condemn me, why can't you find any to demonstrate it?

And maybe you can explain how you interpret this

I'm not asking him to change his vote.

to this

dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason.

Originally I thought the way Dr. Pepper investigated the original dingo post using inference was a pro-town move but upon re-looking at how they have continued the discussion I am not so sure that Dr. Pepper is tunnel-visioned on the conclusion drawn from that inference.

That is, I don't see where Dr. Pepper was so confidant that dingo

was

trying to manipulate Percy. Does anyone else see it as a tunnel-vision or something else?