Newbie 764 - Game Over

[semioldguy]

@ Ojanen

You bring up my opinion on Infinis as changing overnight. Are you saying that is a point against me? Are you saying that your opinions don't change overnight? Based on the lynch reveals and night killings I think town players generally have some shifting opinions as we all have new information, scum doesn't really have new information from these killings.

You've also misrepresented me splendidly, but I have another class to go to right now and I'll be back tonight.

[Ojanen]

Infinis, any thoughts?
I'd vote Starbuck but she's already at L-1.
We should end up catching the scum whether it's Starbuck or semi anyway though, so I'm not sure how much added benefit long pondering today would give.

Why the hesitation here? In fact there was more wishy-washiness and hesitation from your votes on days two and three than there was on the first day. The first day you really didn't leave much self doubt about your vote on Japles because you knew he would flip scum. The next two days you knew that townies were going to be flipping and you set yourself up to wiggle out of having targeted them if the blame came around to you.

At this point day 3 had been going on for 3 real days.
I hammered 1 day later, after giving Infinis a chance to speak, he hadn't posted since his cop reveal. That's some mighty hesitation. Your comparison took in isolation two vote posts and then this snippet.
For the record, because I thought this was misrepresenting, here is my actual vote post.

Well.
I thought about this situation and Infinis' claim one more time.
It just must come down to Starbuck and semioldguy. I can't see a good reason to drag the game at this point, this should be a forced town-win. Starbuck's reaction to the situation today was clearly more scummy than semioldguy's reaction.
This is the hammer.

vote Starbuck

By choosing different snippets you could have also have presented hesitating towards Japles and sternness towards Kai from me. This argument was purely selective quoting.

Japles was bussed. You helped in leading the charge against Japles Day One. The first vote on him was from you. But on the two townie lynches you waited until there was enough support from other players. Against Kairyuu you waited until two other votes were on him, putting him at L-1 when you finally came around to placing your vote. And when it came to Starbuck on the third day, you waited until you could hammer. The only vote you've placed with confidence has been your vote against Japles, the one you knew would turn up as scum.

As I quite pointedly expressed on day 1 in regards to the Sando wagon, I have strong dislike on quicklynching.
Also, as my memory of how things happened is completely different to your narrated version here, I just went and checked the actual times it took me each time to feel comfortable towards placing my vote other than the random one. Day 1: one day short of 2 weeks (and I could have easily hammered Sando after 1 week), day 2: 6 days, day 3: 4 days.
Also, it's completely manipulative to say I waited around until I could be the one to hammer Starbuck. You and Korts voted for her very, very soon after I had posted analysis of Infinis' day 2+cop claim. I came back next day to find her at L-1.
What remains of your argument is that I placed the first vote to Japles but placed only the fourth vote to Kai. Firstly: timewise this is consistent with my overall behaviour, secondly: my case that turned the tide on him was referred to and linked to enough times that I'm quite sure you're oversimplifying the construction of a wagon and making me look passive where I actually was actively pursuing.

[Ojanen]

@ Ojanen
You bring up my opinion on Infinis as changing overnight. Are you saying that is a point against me? Are you saying that your opinions don't change overnight? Based on the lynch reveals and night killings I think town players generally have some shifting opinions as we all have new information, scum doesn't really have new information from these killings.

You've also misrepresented me splendidly, but I have another class to go to right now and I'll be back tonight.

No, opinions do change.
I was bringing up that the reason you stated behind the opinion changing was something that had already happened before and during you stated your original opinion, not the reveals. I was also bringing up again Sando's point that you originally gave credit to Infinis for speculation that contained a lot of false statements. And yes, I do know you then said this was because you the the trying seemed genuine.

[Ojanen]

EBWOP: last words are supposed to be "because for you the trying seemed genuine".

[semioldguy]

@ Ojanen
You bring up my opinion on Infinis as changing overnight. Are you saying that is a point against me? Are you saying that your opinions don't change overnight? Based on the lynch reveals and night killings I think town players generally have some shifting opinions as we all have new information, scum doesn't really have new information from these killings.

You've also misrepresented me splendidly, but I have another class to go to right now and I'll be back tonight.

No, opinions do change.
I was bringing up that the reason you stated behind the opinion changing was something that had already happened before and during you stated your original opinion, not the reveals. I was also bringing up again Sando's point that you originally gave credit to Infinis for speculation that contained a lot of false statements. And yes, I do know you then said this was because you the the trying seemed genuine.

What are you talking about? It had not happened prior to my original statement. My original post about Infinis was in post 230. Infinis didn't hop back on again until 255, well after my first post on him.

Note that the hopping on and off happened already before semi made his first statements about Infinis on day 2.

Yes, he hopped on and and off... but if you actually read my post I mention part of my suspicion is him doing it again and he doesn't hop back on again until 255. I don't really know what you're trying to point out, but I do know that you are incorrect when you say that and looking through the thread proves it. Let me find you the relevant post progression that you seem to have ignored parts of:

Infinis

: I don't get a strong town or scum vibe from him. He could be either. However, what I do like is that he has been looking back extensively at Day One in his scum hunting attempts and bringing it into current discussion, something that I think many more people should do more often. Previous days always merit more analysis as the game progresses. His scum hunting attempts are mostly believable to me.

(This being my first post on Infinis) -Day 2

I've done my best to convince you I'm not scum. I would also like to see input from millar's replacement.

That being said I think we have a path to victory, starting with

Vote: Kairyuu

That's L-2 me and L-1 Kai

(Here's where Infinis revotes Kairyuu, twenty-five posts after my first post on infinis, which you've omitted from your post) -Day 2

I didn't like infinis' hopping on and off with his vote of Kairyuu yesterday and he is one of the top suspects at the moment in my opinion.

I'd like to hear a few things from Starbuck about the game so far. Hopefully she's had time to catch up.

(Here is my mention of me not liking the hopping) -Day 3

I'm town cop. I got innocent on korts Night 1. Night 2 I chose between Sando and Ojanen. I chose poorly.

If you consider Ojanen confirmed town, then that leaves Starbuck and semioldguy, which as I asked in my last post, how are you going to determine who is scum among them?

Town wins if we have Doc.

And semioldguy...I got off Kai's wagon at korts, a townies request, since it would have put Kai at L-1 and korts was catching up.

FoS Semioldguy

(Here is where Infinis questions what I didn't like as well as his own reasoning) -Day 3

I was referring to the fact that at the beginning of the day you went on and off him,

and then onto him again when there was more support for it.

It wasn't just about your last withdrawn vote.

(I bolded the part that you omitted from your representation of me) -Day 3

So it looks like a reason that I stated about what I didn't like about Infinis happened

AFTER

I made my first statements about Infinis on day 2.

[semioldguy]

My point for Days 2 and 3 were that you waited for other people to vote on the eventual lynched suspect before you voted. One the first day you did not wait for others to vote Japles before you voted for him.

You also said that you were the fourth vote on Kairyuu day two, that's wrong. Your vote put him at L-1, making it the third vote on him as it was 4 to lynch.

Why didn't you vote for me on your first post of the day? Especially since that post included your opinion that there was no chance in hell you would vote for anyone else today. Why didn't you think you had a reason to vote immediately?

[Ojanen]

Re: Infinis
Ok, let's clear this up, I dug up the exact sequence to this.
Infinis had voted once and backed off when he didn't get voting support yet before your original statements, and went back after your appreciating posts. I see that your statement in day 3 is not necessarily conflicting because of second part, my interpretation was that Infinis was withdrawing due to lack of already before your appreciation, here are the facts.

Infinis votes Kai 183
unvotes 221
semioldguy defends Infinis 230+241
Infinis votes Kai 255
unvotes Kai 258 for Korts

---

My point for Days 2 and 3 were that you waited for other people to vote on the eventual lynched suspect before you voted. One the first day you did not wait for others to vote Japles before you voted for him.

Just wow, I absolutely cannot believe you're still trying to use day 3 as part of your argument. I was here once per day. Thursday, I made my case supporting Infinis, no one had voted and Starbuck had posted exactly one two line game relevant post. 24 hours later I come back, Starbuck has posted a few more posts and is on L-1. No manipulative representation from your part, no sir.
Regards to day 1 vs. day 2 I already answered a few posts back in a relevant way to the perspective you're building, you deafly repeating your argument doesn't strengthen it.
The argument seems to be an attempt to somehow, anyhow make something out of the fact that if I was scum I would have apparently bussed Japles out of clear blue sky on Day 1.

You also said that you were the fourth vote on Kairyuu day two, that's wrong. Your vote put him at L-1, making it the third vote on him as it was 4 to lynch.

Right, my memory served me wrong there.

Why didn't you vote for me on your first post of the day? Especially since that post included your opinion that there was no chance in hell you would vote for anyone else today. Why didn't you think you had a reason to vote immediately?

You're really, really reaching for straws here.
I said I had no particular reason to vote immediately. The IC specifically requested not voting yet, so that would have been why I had a slight preference for not voting immediately over voting immediately. I posted my viewpoint and checked to be sure that Korts had missed something and not I.

[semioldguy]

The argument seems to be an attempt to somehow, anyhow make something out of the fact that if I was scum I would have apparently bussed Japles out of clear blue sky on Day 1.

This is an exaggeration of my point by you.

You're really, really reaching for straws here.
I said I had no particular reason to vote immediately. The IC specifically requested not voting yet, so that would have been why I had a slight preference for not voting immediately over voting immediately. I posted my viewpoint and checked to be sure that Korts had missed something and not I.

I just don't know why you would say that someone is confirmed scum to you and then in the very same post you say you don't have any particular reason to vote for that person immediately. You had to wait for Korts' approval to vote for someone that you say is a confirmed scum to you. Really?

[Ojanen]

I just don't know why you would say that someone is confirmed scum to you and then in the very same post you say you don't have any particular reason to vote for that person immediately. You had to wait for Korts' approval to vote for someone that you say is a confirmed scum to you. Really?

There was going to be absolutely no difference, no relevance to the conclusion of the lynch in whether I voted for you in my first, second or eighth post today.
That is perfectly consistent with me saying that "I have no particular reason to vote him right away but..." in my first post when the townie IC had just made a point of requesting so. Hearing from him just to make sure I hadn't missed anything was natural when there was nothing to be lost or gained.

[semioldguy]

Why did you exaggerate my point brought up against you that I quoted in Post 332?

[Ojanen]

It will be up to Korts to decide whether your point was good and whether I exaggerated.
I thought it was bad, I don't feel like I really exaggerated so there's no answer to that.

[semioldguy]

The argument seems to be an attempt to somehow, anyhow make something out of the fact that if I was scum I would have apparently

bussed Japles

out of clear blue sky

on Day 1.

Since you don't feel that it's really an exaggeration, would you mind pointing out where you think I imply the bolded part? Because I don't think you bussed Japles out of the clear blue sky.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Ojanen - 1 (semioldguy)
semioldguy - 1 (Ojanen)

Not Voting - 1 (Korts)

2 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Wednesday, May 27th (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[Korts]

Argh. Haven't gotten around to reading either of you, nor your cases; this weekend will be going towards that cause, I promise

[semioldguy]

@ Ojanen

If you don't feel you've exaggerated, then the response wouldn't be that there is no answer to that. The response should be that you would be able to point out where you draw the conclusion from or why it is that you think I imply that you bussed Japles out of the clear blue sky as opposed to some other reason.

[Korts]

Ok, both your arguments make sense, and I didn't find leads on a reread, so I'll have to go by my gut here...

vote: semioldguy

[Ojanen]

Well chosen!
I was just painfully composing an answer to semioldguy.
The core point was that I didn't mean to say that he had implied "out of clear blue sky".
In that case I wouldn't have written "fact" in the middle there.

Good game!

[Ojanen]

And by the way.
You lost.

[Korts]

I was gonna hammer you at first, but my gut changed gears midpost.

[Ojanen]

I have never before found "gut" to be such a beautiful word.

[semioldguy]

I don't think any of your arguments on day three held much water Ojanen. And your refusal to continue corresponding looks really bad.

By the way... if I were scum I would have definitely killed Korts instead of Infinis.

[Kairyuu]

Sadface. Ojanen was obvscum the entirety of D3 and D4. semioldguy made some really solid points against her.

Oh well.

Well played Ojanen, you deserved the win.

I'll get to doing my analysis post later in the week. AP exams are finishing up this week and studying for them>Mafia.

[semioldguy]

The side riddled with more replacements was the side that lost.

[Infinis]

Yeah that's the problem. Too many replacements. My fault for picking Sando, it was a tip off Ojanen lived. But at that point Oja was untouchable.

GG

[Ojanen]

I don't think any of your arguments on day three held much water Ojanen. And your refusal to continue corresponding looks really bad.

You mean day 4? You made me sweat properly, it's pretty scary when someone who is competent and aggressive knows you're scum and has all the material in the world in their hands.
Yeah I know, that's why the silence in the end wasn't actually intentional. RL got me in the last days and when I finally was here on Saturday I just had time to catch up in my other game too close to deadline. It's true that I was in the middle of composing a reply to you when I saw Korts had hammered. Good thing too, cause I would have had to admit I exaggerated my description of the bussing.

By the way... if I were scum I would have definitely killed Korts instead of Infinis.

I know, I thought about this. Before night 3 I was slightly toying with the idea of killing Korts and trying to convince you of Infinis being scum. But I don't think that would have worked for my favour for several reasons (for example it would have been easier for scum-Infinis to claim innocent on me than you).

Kai, thanks! Looking forward to hearing how to improve from being so obvious.

Infinis, you scared me. I kind of hoped there was no cop when no one hinted of being on Kai's side on day 2.

Japles, if you're still here, sorry for the lynch.
I don't enjoy bussing. Looking at the situation truthfully, I just couldn't see a way of not looking scummy at that point without voting for you.
Your case was by far the strongest, I felt the tide was about to turn anyway and I had been thus far the scummy harmless third suspector of yours (fos instead of vote, hide argument against you in the middle of other text, question Kai about you but not you about you etc.). So I took drastic measures.