Mini 788 - Fantasy Mafia [OVER]

[Kmd4390]

Vote Andycyca

I've seen you around and never played a game with you. And there's a bandwagon.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Andycyca

I've seen you around and never played a game with you. And there's a bandwagon.

And now I'm split. Do I stick with the counter-bandwagon, or try to start a new one on the guy who didn't read far enough to know we've moved on?

Some of us

haven't

moved on, ok?

[Kmd4390]

So, a bandwagon already?

Unvote, Vote GoatRevolt

ortolan made a very stupid OMGUS, null read. Goat is more experienced and is looking for a wagon to sting someone up quickly.

How serious a vote is this on a scale 1-10? 1 being a completely random vote, 10 being ready to lynch.

[Kmd4390]

It is ok however, you will be forgiven as long as I see you voting Sudo_Nym in your next post

Are you threatening Andy to vote how you want him to vote?

[Kmd4390]

Are you threatening Andy to vote how you want him to vote?

Yes!

Why?

[Kmd4390]

The object of the game is to lynch scum?

Why so confident on Sudo?

[Kmd4390]

Empking isn't a bad player and I can already vouch for his towniness 100%

Ok, I know this is intentional. You are after Sudo for no reason and you call Empking "100%" town. The only time I've seen you defend Emp like this was in Past Ages where you were scum.

Why are you being intentionally scummy?

[Kmd4390]

Are we sure we should be going for ort and not Emp?

Why do you think we should be going for Emp?

It was just a question. I'm not sure which way we should be going as I have never played with any of you before. I don't know how you play when you are scum or when you are townie, and the same for everyone else.

Is meta required in mafia? What are your reads right now?

(By the way, I don't see Emp as scum right now.)

[Kmd4390]

KMD: Why are you voting Andy?

The way he went after Goat and then called it sarcasm.

[Kmd4390]

Nothing in that discussion was serious. Not Ortolan, and I assume goat was playing along as well.

Actually, my vote on you was somewhat serious, but you're right that I was just playing along with the scum being town-tell deal.

If it was "somewhat" serious, why make it look like a joke?

[Kmd4390]

Nothing in that discussion was serious. Not Ortolan, and I assume goat was playing along as well.

Actually, my vote on you was somewhat serious, but you're right that I was just playing along with the scum being town-tell deal.

If it was "somewhat" serious, why make it look like a joke?

I didn't make it look like a joke. I voted him completely separately than the discussion over "scum being town tell" stuff. That came later.

You said you voted him "For great justice!"

That looks like a joke to me. If there was seriousness to it, you should have been pointing it out. Otherwise, your vote means nothing more than a jokevote.

I also don't like the "somewhat". Either it was a joke or it was serious.

[Kmd4390]

You should have made a serious point if it was a serious vote. Not after you were asked, but when you voted.

So what was your point on TM? Do you still see him as scummy?

[Kmd4390]

Anyone else think Andy and Goat are part of the scum team?

[Kmd4390]

I see no reason why this must be so.

If you are as experienced as I think you are, you know my reasoning here.

I thought his original vote on Andy was a stretching somewhat. He didn't even bother to learn whether or not Andy was joking or serious, just kind of jumped aboard.

I'm moderately suspicious of him, because he's basically just sat on his early Andy vote and hasn't really done much since.

I don't see anything wrong with jumping on small things early like he did.

And this is typical of TM. While I don't like it, he is about as useful as a blank dictionary early in the game. The only time he really does anything is late in the game. Very late. (reference= Open 99 where TM was scum / Large Family Guy where TM was town.) There is a difference between the two, but I'll wait to point it out until I see it.

Nope, can't say I do. I'm really curious why you jumped to this conclusion though. Are we playing some elaborate distancing game?

The fact that you call it elaborate makes me believe this even more. It's very common for scum to distance as early in the game as possible.

Also, you avoided my questions at the top of post 94. I'm pretty interested in your answers to those (basically, I don't see why my actions here are so scummy to you, and I'd like to see your thought process).

I missed something? That's rare. *checks*

Why would I randomly joke vote someone in the middle of real discussion without any reason? Besides, why would I point out now that my vote was serious, long after the fact, when nobody even asked me about it? Am I lying for no discernible reason about something that isn't even that important?

Why would you randomly joke vote someone in the middle of a real discussion without any reason? - I've seen people do it, but generally less experienced players. So fair point. I just thought some reasoning on your vote would have been nice.

Why would you point out that it was serious now? - To have a reason to keep the vote without being told you aren't doing anything? The only time I can remember seeing a vote like this (non-random, very early, unexplained) was when Shea did it as scum TBH.

Are you lying about something unimportant? - Doubtful. You may be trying to appear protown by doing something that may look more helpful than it really is though.

Bold assessment to make this early.

What do you think of both players at this point? Even if it's a weak read, town or scum on each?

[Kmd4390]

Your argument looks more like distancing than genuine suspicion.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd: I'm not really a fan of looking for "distancing" connections between two people, neither of whom have yet flipped; on day one. I'm inclined to think the far more common (and better) play is to either defend one's scumbuddies day one or just ignore them altogether. Arguments over two people "distancing" on day one are too subject to WIFOM and the ones I've seen are almost always wrong.

This depends on the player. Some distance. Some defend. Some ignore. It's a judgement call and my judgement says distancing here.

I have no idea how experienced you think I am. Feel free to check my wiki if you wish to read up on me. However, I do understand your reasoning here, I just think you're entirely wrong. Fair enough?

I guess. I disagree, but still.

Really? And why would my word choice "elaborate" make you feel you are correct. Let's run through:

I placed the 3rd vote on Andy in the random phase.
He responded strongly to my 3rd vote with an apparently sarcastic OMGUS.
I attacked him immediately afterward to explain himself because his vote didn't look like a joke.
He mentioned that it was just sarcasm.
He votes Ortolan based on poor reasoning.
I jump on his wagon, as a critical 4th vote, and argue in favor of him being scum with Sudo_Nym and Empking.

And we're apparently just distancing. Because that's likely......

It's Page 5. You can easily back off of each other later in the day and get away with it. That's why it is the perfect time to attack each other like that.

Here's a question: Why have you kept your random vote on Andy this entire time, even though you have not bothered to question or pressure him a single time since early page 2 when you merely asked him the seriousness of his vote? I see you questioning Ortolan, myself, Starbuck, but not Andy, who your vote is conveniently on.

Because I think Andy is scum. And I think you and Starbuck are his buddies. I don't think Ort is scum.

You've seen it one time before, and it was scum, so that somehow makes me more likely to be scum? Bad argument. A sample size of 1 is pretty weak for making justifications like that.

My point was that I haven't seen it from town and it sounds very similar to the one time I did see Shea's play in Medieval. I know it's a weak point though. OGML, for example, makes seemingly baseless votes all the time lately.

So if you don't think I'm lying, then why did you attack me under the premise that my vote looked like a joke, not a serious vote?

My assumption when reading that post was that it was a joke. I think you should have done more with it if it wasn't.

[Kmd4390]

OP, can you tell me why you just quoted Mean Girls?

[Kmd4390]

Mix, I have nothing more on Goat than his interactions with Andy and his actions being weird. Star is mostly gut.

[Kmd4390]

I haven't played with you before. I can't use meta to clear you like that.

[Kmd4390]

Emp, my avatar bet has expired. I'm gonna find out pretty soon about another though. If I lost, I'll have a new avatar. If I won, Ether has one waiting for me.

Andy is scummier.

Goat, fair enough I guess.

Star, you have

one

vote. Why are you freaking out over one vote?

[Kmd4390]

My vote is on you because I think you are scum. Why else would it be there?

[Kmd4390]

Well

So why all the votes for me all of a sudden? I'm confused.

This looks like an over reaction for two votes.

[Kmd4390]

Star, taking shots at "everyone" is me thinking I have the 3 scum found and going after those three players. How am I being insulting or defensive?

Goat, you (or anyone else here) probably won't face my real wrath. I've been warned by a List Mod recently, but the game is ongoing. XD

Star, I'd say we should probably stop discussing roles that could be in the game. There is no reason to speculate on anyone's roles just yet.

[Kmd4390]

Are you honestly suggesting that power roles should claim?

Unvote, Vote Starbuck

[Kmd4390]

I think all we need to know is that it's possible that some power roles might or might not be in the game. That is all. We shouldn't speculate on what specifically we have. Town has no info to gain (no Night 0), but scum can decide which role is most valuable for us and base their NK on what we discuss, eliminating our most powerful role before it ever gets used.

[Kmd4390]

I'm suspicious for not wanting to expose power roles? Interesting logic there.

[Kmd4390]

When did I say I wanted to expose them? I just wanted to discuss the possibilities of what might be out there. You keep putting words in my mouth and I do not like your bullying towards myself or others as you have been doing.

If you want to find role possibilities, see the wiki or Llama's past modded games. If we discuss it, it helps scum pick up hints on who may have what role.

[Kmd4390]

When did I say I wanted to expose them? I just wanted to discuss the possibilities of what might be out there. You keep putting words in my mouth and I do not like your bullying towards myself or others as you have been doing.

If you want to find role possibilities, see the wiki or

Llama's

Sens'

past modded games. If we discuss it, it helps scum pick up hints on who may have what role.

Fixed.

[Kmd4390]

I disagree with the flavor claim as well. Looks more like a distraction than anything. It's highly possible that protown players have seemingly anti-town flavor and even more likely that scum have fakeclaims or flavor that can be made to sound protown.

If anyone is going to flavor claim, they should fullclaim as well. And mass-fullclaiming on Day 2-3 isn't anything I plan on doing.

[Kmd4390]

ZazieR replaces xofelf!

[Kmd4390]

Goat, I saw Andy as more likely scum than anyone else at the time. I didn't have anything strong, but it seemed better than what I had on anyone else.

And I responded to the whole quote at once instead of chopping it to pieces. I missed part of it. I don't see how you can be so certain that I apparently lied about that. That's a blatant strawman by the way. "You lied and lying is scummy, so you're scum." Yes, lying is scummy, but I simply didn't lie.

What exactly is weak about my vote? Starbuck had NO reason to be speculating about the roles that are in this game if she is town.

Asking questions isn't scumhunting how? Just because I haven't found anyone who I am completely sold on being scum

yet

doesn't mean I'm not looking. I'm trying to get what I can from people.

[Kmd4390]

I provided a reason here:

KMD: Why are you voting Andy?

The way he went after Goat and then called it sarcasm.

Not much, I know. But more than I had on anyone else. What more questioning was I going to do with this?

And of course I didn't actually suspect him when I random voted.

No, accusations aren't strawmans. False accusations grouped with a vote and saying there is no reason to do something that was never done IS a strawman.

I don't "choose" not to answer anything in any game regardless of my alignment. What would I gain from avoiding something that you were obviously going to come back to?

I had the impression that you were experienced enough to see what was wrong with your vote. It's just a difference in playstyle though I guess.

No, I don't see Starbucks as a highly experienced player. Not a complete newb, but not highly experienced either. But that plays no factor in my point against her. Town has no reason to want to know what roles are in the game. Scum does. Therefore, it's a scumtell.

So my playstyle of asking questions is scummy? How is this different from my attack on you that you called a difference in playstyle earlier? That's how I scumhunt, especially early. I ask questions when things stand out. I go back and forth with players who are as active as I am. Once I've seen enough from that player, I start to get a read on them. If I read them as scum, I vote them and push there lynch and have done my job. If I read them as town, I back off and try someone else.

[Kmd4390]

Do you think scum are going to claim their roles. Unless that is the case, there's no way to know what we are up "against". Only what is on our side. And only scum wants to know that.

[Kmd4390]

How exactly does it save town to speculate on our roles? At the very best, we could use a protective role to save a powerful role while scum kills the next best. That's not helpful for town. Very useful for scum though.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Andycyca

I've seen you around and never played a game with you. And there's a bandwagon.

Eh? Since when do you random vote somebody else than a player you know?
And why Andy, and not Sudo?

I know Andy from GTKAS and occasional appearances in ScumChat. I've never played mafia with him. He seemed like a good place to put my random vote.

Kevin, what was your opinion of Bear (Orto) at the time you wrote Post 53?

Make me look back at my posts...



Really though. That was the one where I asked why he was being intentionally scummy. My opinion was that he thought he was helping by getting reactions.

Kevin, don't you agree that you should look into the player you are voting for?
If so, why aren't you doing that regarding Andy?

I looked at as much as I could. The reason for a back-and-forth with Goat, and not Andy, was simply the fact that Goat was more active.

[Kmd4390]

Star, taking shots at "everyone" is me thinking I have the 3 scum found and going after those three players. How am I being insulting or defensive?

The

3 scum? Really? Not just 3 scum, but

the

3, implying you know how many scum there are.

In a mini, I usually assume 3. It's not always the case, but usually is.

[Kmd4390]

As many might remember, post 96 was Andy's first 'real' post after he got back. Kevin is the first to respond after this post, yet doesn't address any of it, while an explanation was made for post 24.

Nothing in 96 stood out as anything I should be responding to. It's all directed at other players.

Kevin did ask if others saw a Goat - Andy scumteam, with as reason 'distancing', after this post. But later, this isn't mentioned anymore.
Though later, Kevin's stubbornness returns regarding Star.

Their posts looked like playful distancing. That's the only point I have towards a connection though.

Is something wrong with my vote on Star?

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. Thought I did say more about that vote. Looking back, I really didn't.

What's wrong with discussing things with multiple players? (Which lovers game was 139? The one where I was scum with Plum? Kirroha was lurking in that game, so I didn't really get a chance to discuss anything with her. This would be true regardless of my alignment there.)

What did you mean about "stubbornness" if there's nothing wrong with the vote?

[Kmd4390]

I don't know the numbers of games. I know the names of the games and the Mods.

I tend to focus on a select few players who grab my attention regardless of alignment. You can judge that on your own though. XD

So what else should I be paying attention to that I'm not around the time I vote Star? I try to respond to everything that stands out. The second part, I can agree that I have a habit of going after my suspicions, and only my suspicions, once I think I'm right.

[Kmd4390]

You said "less paying attention to the other discussions around you" so I was asking what other discussions I should be paying attention to.

[Kmd4390]

It was in general >.<
But you've always got Bear- Sudo. I don't think you've paid attention to that.

You're right. Ort went after Sudo in the RVS and I haven't looked very closely at much between them after that. I'll do that if I'm not lazy soon.

I don't like the pile-on on Star. I think her "slip" was really quite innocent; I don't think she was advocating that we all claim, but rather that we should try and garner information. Given that the town starts in a massive information hole, I don't think that's a bad idea; it's just that the execution must be done carefully.

If we discuss the roles we could see in the game, it's not only possible, but likely, that someone will drop a hint at there role and scum will pick up on it.

No problem; I'd rather see a person get lynched for a good reason than because of a misunderstanding. That said, you now owe me. Sooner or later, I'm going to come and ask for a favor...

There's no misunderstanding. I knew what Star meant, and it's exactly what you just said, and it's still helpful for scum.

[Kmd4390]

Given that the town starts in a massive information hole, I don't think that's a bad idea; it's just that the execution must be done carefully.

I don't support actually doing it, just that I don't believe it was so scummy as people have intimated.

Seems to contradict. Am I wrong?

[Kmd4390]

So are you saying that Starbuck's logic (that we need to gain information as a town) was right, but the way she was going about doing that (discussing possible roles) was wrong (Not scummy, just wrong)?

[Kmd4390]

More or less. Her center was right, which makes me believe she was thinking along townie lines. As such, I give her the benefit of the doubt, and believe that her idea was a mistake, not a deliberate scum maneuver.

Ok, I really want to believe that I'm right and Star had scummy intentions in trying to out power roles, but your logic is just too good to argue against.

Unvote

ORLY? Check again.
And like I said, the only thing that's scummy about Kevin is that he wasn't his normal stubborn self regarding Andy.

Heh. You're

really

gonna be suspicious of me after the unvote above.

-----------

Now might be the time to look at lurkers. Most of the active players are giving me town reads.

OP,

First he jokevoted Starbuck with the Mean Girls quotes. Then:

Before I get into the loop, can we get a

vote count?

Wants a vote count before getting "into the loop".

Then:

vote Starbuck

LOL, I really hope you are voting her because she hasn't seen Mean Girls. If anything is worth a vote, that sure is.

*will get serious tomorrow*

Comments on Mean Girls again. Not a useful post. Says he'll post "tomorrow".

Next post is 4 days later:

Alright, I am getting caught up. I think it would be beneficial, probably day 2 or 3 (some time later on) if we did a mass flavor claim. Anyone agree? Disagree?

I will post sometime later on though.

Says he's catching up. Asks for the mass flavor claim which really doesn't seem like anything worth doing to me.

Again, says he'll post later.

3 days later, next post:

Vote: Empking

Bandwagoning.

Very weak vote.

It just seemed very opportunistic and he basically repeated what has already been said.

Then he comes back to explain the vote, which I still think is weak.

Vote Orangepenguin

I'd like to see some actual analysis from you ASAP.

[Kmd4390]

Heh. You're

really

gonna be suspicious of me after the unvote above.

How'd you guess?


Also, is your vote against OP serious or for pressure?
And why him, instead of one of the other less active players?
Last, but not least:

OP, you were....so useful.

(Or something like that >.<)
Do you have something to say about this quote regarding OP's play in this game?[/quote]

My vote on OP is completely serious. He is my top scum suspect. He has posted, but done absolutely nothing. He said he'd catch up a few times, and didn't.

The "useful" thing is from the lovers game and means nothing here. I will always want him alive when I am scum though.

[Kmd4390]

The "useful" thing is from the lovers game and means nothing here. I will always want him alive when I am scum though.

*remembers this for future reference*

If KMD appears to like you and thinks you're scum, vote him immediately.

Thinking your scum would have nothing to do with it. I'd be more likely to buddy up and call you town so you don't get lynched.

Wanna add some content now?

[Kmd4390]

Anyway, about that part where you say that your vote against OP is serious, I'd like to restate this question that you didn't answer from that post:

And why him, instead of one of the other less active players?

Actually to make it obv what I'm asking you, what has Shadow done that he doesn't deserve your vote? Because I see the same behaviour from both.

My point about the quote was that you've played with OP before. I'd like to know what the difference is between how he played in those games and here.

Because OP is scummy and he caught my attention.

Shadow hasn't really done anything and I haven't taken the time to look into him.

I don't really have much reliable meta on OP. I know that he can contribute more than he has though.

[Kmd4390]

EPWOB

I will always want him alive when I am scum though.

Forgot to address this part.

Why?
And now that this is known, would you play different to OP than this in your next game with him if you're scum?

Because he is quick to vote in LYLO.

And I won't even go into the whole WIFOM thing of what I'd do in my next game with OP where I'm scum.

[Kmd4390]

Star, if I was "completely sure", wouldn't I still be pushing the same players as scum?

[Kmd4390]

I frequently make cases without including possible scum buddies. In fact, I attempt to determine who the scum buddies are based on reactions to my cases. I disagree that you should be looking for a team of mafia players on day 1. Catching the first scum gives you information to use in catching subsequent scum.

I agree with this. Lynch the scummiest players, keep an eye open for buddies, but don't worry too much about connections until after the first scum flips.

It's ok to look for connections. But the lynch needs to be the scummiest player, not a player who seems connected to someone.

[Kmd4390]

This implies that she was mistaken to think you are scum. Which means you are town. Why are you acting so defensively, I was just interpreting what she said, not necessarily disagreeing with it. I do wonder why she seemed so confident of your alignment however.

It's a read, not a confirmation. Why are you blowing this up so much?

*Picking up prod*

Sorry for the absence of late. Will try to get my bearings shortly.

unvote
vote: kmd

Reasons for this vote?

[Kmd4390]

Alright, so I think I am ready to play now. I started off really badly - I didn't know about this game until about 2 weeks after it started, so I was behind and then quickly read through the thread. I didn't know what to think, and didn't really learn anything from my read through, and I started the game off with a stupid cultural reference which dominated my first couple of posts. That was stupid. It was beyond the RVS, so I should've just started in a serious mood. Alas.

How did you confirm your role without knowing about the game?

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

, I did that once. Mafia 89 (I think) modded by Phate.

I'm interested to see your cases on Emp, Ort, and Star.

Vote Empking

Meta. That's all I'm going to say, but the guy is scum.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

, I did that once. Mafia 89 (I think) modded by Phate.

I'm interested to see your cases on Emp, Ort, and Star.

Vote Empking

Meta. That's all I'm going to say, but the guy is scum.

Why aren't you saying anything other than "Meta"?

Why don't you ever say anything other than "bandwagoning" or "active lurking" or whatever else?

I have a meta tell on you and I'd like to keep it to myself before you catch on.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

, I did that once. Mafia 89 (I think) modded by Phate.

I'm interested to see your cases on Emp, Ort, and Star.

Vote Empking

Meta. That's all I'm going to say, but the guy is scum.

Why aren't you saying anything other than "Meta"?

Why don't you ever say anything other than "bandwagoning" or "active lurking" or whatever else?

I have a meta tell on you and I'd like to keep it to myself before you catch on.

The problem is that the meta is wrong.

Not if you are scum.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

, I did that once. Mafia 89 (I think) modded by Phate.

I'm interested to see your cases on Emp, Ort, and Star.

Vote Empking

Meta. That's all I'm going to say, but the guy is scum.

Why aren't you saying anything other than "Meta"?

Why don't you ever say anything other than "bandwagoning" or "active lurking" or whatever else?

I have a meta tell on you and I'd like to keep it to myself before you catch on.

The problem is that the meta is wrong.

Not if you are scum.

And I'm not scum.

Can somebody ask him what the meta is?
KMD: Do you remember that this game is an island?

And what would you say if you were scum? "Damn, good game"? I don't think so.

It's an island, but I remember things that happened before we came to this island.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

, I did that once. Mafia 89 (I think) modded by Phate.

I'm interested to see your cases on Emp, Ort, and Star.

Vote Empking

Meta. That's all I'm going to say, but the guy is scum.

Why aren't you saying anything other than "Meta"?

Why don't you ever say anything other than "bandwagoning" or "active lurking" or whatever else?

I have a meta tell on you and I'd like to keep it to myself before you catch on.

The problem is that the meta is wrong.

Not if you are scum.

And I'm not scum.

Can somebody ask him what the meta is?
KMD: Do you remember that this game is an island?

And what would you say if you were scum? "Damn, good game"? I don't think so.

It's an island, but I remember things that happened before we came to this island.

Yes but you shouldn't keep it to yourself in order to benefit yourself after we leave the island.

Damn. That's a good point, actually...

Empking, you are too logical for me...

[Kmd4390]

Who are everyone's two main suspects?

You and Shadow Knight.

I think KMD is scum with goat

orangepenguin, closely followed by ortolan.

You think there are 4 scum?

Also, this is personality disorder :

Wow.

[Kmd4390]

Screw this, today's gone on long enough.

72 hours until deadline, whether I find a replacement or not.

Can we get a votecount please?

[Kmd4390]

Screw this, today's gone on long enough.

72 hours until deadline, whether I find a replacement or not.

Can we get a votecount please?

And do you need help finding a replacement?

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote Izzy

[Kmd4390]

If I impose a day deadline, no one will be lynched if the deadline hits with no one reaching the required number of votes.

I'll switch to Starbuck if needed.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote Starbuck

I don't want to no lynch.

[Kmd4390]

We need either more Star votes or a new wagon. I don't want to no lynch.

[Kmd4390]

As weak as that is, we have less than 9 hours to pull something off and I don't know what the fuck is up with Starbuck being alive after 7 votes.

Unvote, Vote Shadow Knight

[Kmd4390]

We have just over 2 hours.

Unvote, Vote Starbuck

The SK (username abbreviation, not role XD) lynch isn't going to happen.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I decided this game needed a serious re-read over night. I decided this. Ortolan is obvscum. My vote probably won't move off of him unless we need a deadline lynch or someone claims scum. Here's what I found:

--------------------------

His vote on Sudo (in his second post) was an "I can get behind that". Obviously not a joke vote, but with no reasons. Easy to say it was "for reactions", but I won't buy that.

And this was after Sudo had voted him. Which brings me to:

For Shadow Knight's benefit:

1) My vote was not OMGUS

2) OMGUS has never been established as a scum-tell

3) You could not even clearly conclude that my second vote, that for Sudo_Nym; was not merely an extension of the random voting phase (although it happens not to be).

It is ok however, you will be forgiven as long as I see you voting Sudo_Nym in your next post

So his vote with no reason on someone who just voted him isn't OMGUS. Riiiiiight. Let's entertain that idea for a second though and go to DOOR NUMBER TWO!!! What's behind door number two? OMGUS isn't a scumtell!!! So. Why the need to say something isn't a scumtell if you don't feel you committed the act anyway? So, OMGUS? Check. Defending against a point you claim is untrue anyway? Check. Scalpal? Che-- er. wait. No scalpal. Damn.

(Btw, yes, Zazie already made the point about "Door Number 2. I see that as I read ahead.)

Next, just as I thought. The vote was NOT a jokevote. So. What Ortolan himself has told us: His vote was supposedly not OMGUS. His vote was not a joke vote. Oh, by the way, just in case it was OMGUS (which, remember, it wasn't XD), OMGUS isn't a scumtell. What Ort has not told us: Why he voted Sudo in the first place.

And to cap it off, "Shadow Knight, vote Sudo OR ELSE!!" Ok, not what he directly said. He just says SK is "forgiven" if he votes Sudo. Forgiven for what? Suspecting you? Oh wait, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. Forget that point![/sarcasm] (Wait, maybe it was Andy who he was "forgiving". Still, point stands either way)

Next, he even

says

that he was threatening Andy to basically hand over his vote. I took this as intentional scumminess for bad reasons, but a town tell originally. But on second glance, he is trying to take control. Get the game moving how he wants it to move. Try to set up a "too scummy" argument. I'm not letting that get in the way. Ort is scum.

In Ort's next few posts, he still refuses to give a reason to lynch Sudo. Basically, his argument comes down to "he's scum". And during this time, Ort does nothing else for the game. Just baselessly tell us to lynch Sudo.

Then. Empking is "100%" town? Well, with no Night 0, you only know this as scum. So thanks for scumclaiming.

I was looking for

1) the target's own reaction to being wagoned (not as important)

2) people who deliberately ignore my actions even though they are quite attention-drawing

3) people who react badly to my inherently neutral actions, especially those providing inconsistent justifications for doing so.

Bullshit. You know as well as I do that some townies will react badly to this. That makes them easy lynches to push. I think that's what you wanted.

Now he votes Andy for voting him (Ort) for being scummy? What? Isn't that a protown reaction? Voting someone who refuses to take the game seriously. But remember kids, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. :teach:. Ort already said so.

He continues on Andy for a little while and then tells me not to look for connections. Ok scum, I'll be sure not to try to find your buddies.

Not sure what to make of Goatrevolt vs Kmd at present. Could well be townie vs townie.

Making sure to address it, as you yourself said that a scummy reaction to something getting attention is not addressing it. But no solid opinions apart from that it

could

be townie on townie action.

e.g. your lynch. Hop to it guys!

Hello Zakeri, please vote Andycya

Reading is optional before voting Andycya

I thought this was an early game approach for reactions. What do you call it when it's no longer near-RVS?

Because scum have no motivation to act deliberately scummy unless they are trying to throw the game, which is against site-wide rules.

Unless they want to set up a WIFOM argument that the only reason for scum to do it is to throw the game which they'd never do. OH WAIT. YOU DID THAT. XD

Next, Ort defends Zazie's points and then asks Zazie about her opinions on Andy. Gotta redirect to the easy target now. (Btw, with Ortscum, Andy (Izzy) is likely town)

Zazie makes good points on Ort again, and he says "who do you suspect" after defending this time. Again, trying to shift Zazie's attention elsewhere. She didn't bite on your Andy redirection, so now you give her the option to go anywhere she chooses. But it seems clear that she suspects you, and rightfully so. (Btw, Ortscum makes Zazie is likely town.)

The pattern continues as Zazie makes more good points, Ort defends some more and then asks about other players, including Starbuck and Shadow Knight, at the end of each post.

Please guys, the scum are dominating the game, would you post more.

Now this is scummy. Warning, this may not be suitable for children:

Unless you're a vig, you have to vote him to get him lynched.

Also, ZazieR's rolefishing in 307 is positively hilarious

1) I fail to see fishing. It's pretty much fact that anyone who isn't a vig has to get a lynch to have their suspect killed. The only exception is an anti town role (or some other kind of killing role. Vig is most common though.)
2) Oh, wait. Ignore this. OMGUS isn't a scumtell, right?

The vote on Star could go either way. That was the direction we were heading anyway, so I have no problem with the vote itself. What I don't like is how you separate yourself from the lynch by saying she is "very" far from optimal. And then asking her to self-hammer is just weird.. You say only scum wouldn't self hammer, but why? Town should VERY rarely self-hammer. This was not a time for that.

Vote Ortolan

Extremely scummy. Needs to be lynched ASAP.

--------------------------

Also, lol at Sudo dying and Ortolan using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's.

[Kmd4390]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

Do you think Ort is town?

[Kmd4390]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

Do you think Ort is town?

I do. I think Dizzy is scum, and I don't see the two of them as scum together.

Hmm. Opposite opinion from mine.

Well, Ort is scum and I don't see them as partners either, so Izzy is likely town.

Oh well. I only need to convince a majority, not everyone.

[Kmd4390]

Oh well. I only need to convince a majority, not everyone.

The fact that you would attempt to "convince" Goatrevolt is odd to me, didn't you spend the whole first day calling him scum, in which case he would never be "convinced" of anything you say, he could only feign it?

I called him scum early in the Day. Not the whole Day.

I'll respond to your defense tomorrow btw. I have to work tomorrow morning and it's 1:30 AM.

[Kmd4390]

wall of text incoming

*Ducks*

His vote on Sudo (in his second post) was an "I can get behind that". Obviously not a joke vote, but with no reasons. Easy to say it was "for reactions", but I won't buy that.

What do you think it was for then? Do you really think I'm that arrogant as scum that I think I can just boss people around with their votes, especially with players like you in the game? What do you think I was hoping to do after Sudo_Nym got lynched and flipped town (which I would know he was if I was scum)? Do you think I'd just get away with continually doing that for the rest of the game? Yes, my early play was for reactions, just because I did something you haven't seen me do before doesn't mean it's scummy. This applies to my comments both to Shadow Knight and Andy which you brought up.

I think your vote on Sudo was baseless OMGUS. I think you were trying to show suspicion on Sudo early because he may be a threat to you. I think you did it in an irrational way just to say scum wouldn't do that.

Yes, if you are scum, you push a mislynch. Scum can mislynch just as easily as town can be wrong. It's no reason for scum not to keep pushing. You are a good enough player that you know this.

I'm not saying it's scummy because I haven't seen you do it before. I saw you as scum once (that mini where I was the beloved princess) and your play was far from being the center of attention. So this is not at all a meta argument that I am making against you.

Then. Empking is "100%" town? Well, with no Night 0, you only know this as scum. So thanks for scumclaiming.

Honestly, if I was scum the last thing I would try to do is play like I did in Past Ages at the beginning (declaring Empking town), which I'm sure you'd pick up on immediately. Don't tell me you have that little respect for my scum play . And believe me, in my experience I'm seriously good at reading Empking now, and it is helpful to get out of the way at the beginning of the game (see e.g. mod-revealed info in Lynch All Lurkers and Mushroom Kingdom 2, both large themes; although the latter is still ongoing).

Wow, I forgot about you doing that in Past Ages.

No, my concern is more that you declared 100% certainty on a player's alignment. Town can't ever be 100% sure with no Night 0 (barring roles that reveal this info in the Role PMs). So to be certain of Empking's alignment, you have to be scum.

- I disagree with you basically reiterating what ZazieR said, basically that justifying myself greatly is scummy. You can ask "why did you say OMGUS is a scumtell if you don't think you did it?" until you're blue in the face but it doesn't change the fact that OMGUS simply isn't a scumtell, in the original instance where it occurred the player that did it wasn't scum. So even if you establish that my vote was "OMGUS", whatever that's supposed to be, it's not scummy. I also denied that it was because it had reasons attached, plus in the scheme of things it was part of my early-game gambit anyway.

Actually, I didn't realize Zazie had already made some points I was making. Noticed it after I wrote the points.

Calling it a Gambit doesn't make it less scummy btw.

Now he votes Andy for voting him (Ort) for being scummy? What? Isn't that a protown reaction? Voting someone who refuses to take the game seriously. But remember kids, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. :teach:. Ort already said so.

Trying an early game gambit like that isn't "not taking the game seriously" at all, if anything it's taking it very seriously because you're potentially endangering your own survival by playing in an unorthodox way to catch scum reactions.

Keep hiding behind the Gambit...

Andy didn't know it was a "Gambit". In his eyes, you were still hiding in the RVS far too long. In his eyes, you were scummy. That warrants a vote, no?

He continues on Andy for a little while and then tells me not to look for connections. Ok scum, I'll be sure not to try to find your buddies.

IIRC it was because you said you suspected I was "busing" Andy, which is pretty ridiculous. I objected to you basically interpreting an attack on someone else automatically as a bus, which has little validity unless you can point to an extra reason why it is.

If I remember right, I asked if you were bussing. Reactionary question.

But the connections thing was because I had connected Goat to Andy. You said it wasn't a good idea to look for connections yet.

Not sure what to make of Goatrevolt vs Kmd at present. Could well be townie vs townie.

Making sure to address it, as you yourself said that a scummy reaction to something getting attention is not addressing it. But no solid opinions apart from that it

could

be townie on townie action.

I said "could well be townie vs townie", because that's the impression I got. That is not just saying "could". I do not have perfect information about the game; I do not know your and Goat's alignments but the impression I got was that it was very possibly just a misconceived fight between two townies.

But you know Emp's alignment? My point is that you could have looked into it more closely than that. I think you just acknowledged it so you wouldn't get called on it.

e.g. your lynch. Hop to it guys!

Hello Zakeri, please vote Andycya

Reading is optional before voting Andycya

I thought this was an early game approach for reactions. What do you call it when it's no longer near-RVS?

This point really doesn't make sense. If I had only "located" my gambit in the RVS, then it would have been dismissed as simply another feature of the RVS. It had to be continued beyond it to look somewhat like genuine intent otherwise no-one would have reacted to it and just dismissed it as part of the RVS.

You had already revealed the Gambit at this point.

Because scum have no motivation to act deliberately scummy unless they are trying to throw the game, which is against site-wide rules.

Unless they want to set up a WIFOM argument that the only reason for scum to do it is to throw the game which they'd never do. OH WAIT. YOU DID THAT. XD

Well it is just that, WIFOM. In my experience scum have less to gain by drawing attention to themselves at the beginning of the game than townies. Townies can afford to be mislynched more than scum can.

But the thing is, players who do that usually aren't the Day 1 lynch, especially when they have a decent reputation as a player. People start thinking the same thing I started to think. "Well, he's a better player than that, so he's got a reason to be doing this." Then they falsely think, "His reason has town motivations." I think you realized this and decided to capitalize on it.

Zazie makes good points on Ort again, and he says "who do you suspect" after defending this time. Again, trying to shift Zazie's attention elsewhere. She didn't bite on your Andy redirection, so now you give her the option to go anywhere she chooses. But it seems clear that she suspects you, and rightfully so. (Btw, Ortscum makes Zazie is likely town.)

Yes, she has said she suspects me, that much is clear. I took issue with her not looking for any other suspects, even though she should be looking for a mafia team of approximately three. I had my suspects very clearly laid out, but both she and Sudo_Nym were tunneled on me. I still think I was in the right, and they weren't justified in effectively tunneling and calling for a policy lynch on me, but we can discuss this post-game.

1) What makes you think she didn't look anywhere else?
2) Why wasn't it ok for me to look for connections if that's exactly what you want Zazie to do?
3) Where the hell did ANYONE tunnel on a "policy lynch" on you?

The pattern continues as Zazie makes more good points, Ort defends some more and then asks about other players, including Starbuck and Shadow Knight, at the end of each post.

What, are you honestly suggesting this is in any way scummy?

Constantly asking about other players when someone attacks you? Yes. You want them to say "Well, X and Y are pretty scummy too. I guess I could vote them instead if people like that option better."

Now this is scummy.

How?[/quote]

You misunderstood. I meant the next part.

Unless you're a vig, you have to vote him to get him lynched.

Also, ZazieR's rolefishing in 307 is positively hilarious

1) I fail to see fishing. It's pretty much fact that anyone who isn't a vig has to get a lynch to have their suspect killed. The only exception is an anti town role (or some other kind of killing role. Vig is most common though.)

My point was her saying "unless you're a vig" was totally unnecessary, and possibly an attempt to subtly provoke role info.

I disagree.

2) Oh, wait. Ignore this. OMGUS isn't a scumtell, right?

What???

This is me calling your attack on Zazie's so-called fishing OMGUS.

The vote on Star could go either way. That was the direction we were heading anyway, so I have no problem with the vote itself. What I don't like is how you separate yourself from the lynch by saying she is "very" far from optimal.

Um, what???? I had repeatedly said I thought she was town (which is now vindicated). Of course her lynch was suboptimal. How can you possibly take issue with me saying that? I never wanted her lynched (well until she claimed one more vote to lynch and that she could only hammer; in my experience with completed games the latter feature was only present in a scum fake-claim in Sushi Mafia; which happened after this comment).

You seemed to be, and still do, separating yourself from a probable mislynch as much as possible. Ok, you called her town. We get it.

And then asking her to self-hammer is just weird.. You say only scum wouldn't self hammer, but why? Town should VERY rarely self-hammer. This was not a time for that.

I was trying to get her to out herself as scum by refusing to self-hammer. My intentions were mistaken, as I later realised, because if she didn't one more person had to vote for her, which would necessarily give us more information. So, yes, I was mistaken. However you don't actually explain how these actions were scummy. What motivation would I have, as scum, for saying something which looks anti-town like that but doesn't actually accomplish anything beyond making people suspect me more?

You missed the point. Why is town more likely to self hammer than scum?

And how does it look anti-town?

Vote Ortolan

Extremely scummy. Needs to be lynched ASAP.

This is hypocritical. Part of your case against me was me making statements like this (I do not think it is a scumtell in either case, but you are being a hypocrite by attacking me for it but doing it yourself).

No, my issue was that you said things like this without a case. I clearly have put effort into pushing your lynch for actual reasons.

Also, lol at Sudo dying and Ortolan using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's.

How am I "using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's."? I always suspected Andycya/Izzy alongside Sudo_Nym. I acknowledge Sudo's flip makes ZazieR look more like she has town motivations. I also acknowledge Sudo's flip makes me look bad, because we had both been attacking one another and I found him very scummy. Also how is "wanting to lynch Izzy over Zazie" actually scummy, anyway? You are implying that Zazie is my scumbuddy, hence I don't want to lynch her, yet you earlier said that if I am scum Zazie is very likely to be town (which I agree with, if I am scum then Zazie

is

very likely to be town; however I am not).

No, my point is that you come out looking like you had a plan based on the Sudo kill. The only way that is possible is if you knew Sudo was dying.

Pretty much your whole case against me relies on the least charitable interpretation of my actions possible. You've also totally changed your tune since day one, you never once actively suspected me then; in favour of totally different people. I think you may well have realised that many people would be prepared to vote me day 1 (based on Empking's poll, for example), and thought you could push through a mislynch with ease. Also, many of your points are rehashes of what ZazieR has already said, even though you didn't even comment on them at the original time she made them. The timing of the case and the fact you really seem to be assuming I play scum far more incompetently than the evidence suggests makes me suspect it is disingenuous.

So, you are saying that my case is BS because the only thing between my null read on you and my "OMG SCUM, LYNCH NOW" was a Night 1, correct? Ok, I'll admit it. You're right. I BS'd a case. But tell me this. Why did you kill Sudo last night?

oh, and check out what Kmd said on the top post of this very page; while accusing me of distancing from Starbuck's mislynch (how is that any different from what I said???????????????)

Pfffffttttt.

So, in summary, while there are a few posts from ortolan that make me a little uncomfortable, the majority of your case is much, much weaker than you seem to think it is. You look to me like scum who's decided overnight to come down hard to a player who's probably, given his silly behaviour early on, an easy target. Added to my suspicions of you yesterday (see 485), I feel comfortable right now with a

Vote: Kmd

Are scum the only players who change a stance during the night? Btw, I realize I'm about to have to claim. I want to see what Ort says first. Just for fun. I already know he's scum.

[Kmd4390]

Ort, you're online. Don't worry about going point by point in my last post. Just tell me why you killed Sudo.

[Kmd4390]

Wait, there are multiple scum groups?

[Kmd4390]

So Ort killed Sudo. Hmm. Need to think now.

[Kmd4390]

He might be an SK who is trying to pass himself off as vig.

[Kmd4390]

The only assumption I am making is that the Mod didn't lie to me.

[Kmd4390]

The only assumption I am making is that the Mod didn't lie to me.

What?

Ort says I'm making assumptions. Assuming Sens told the truth in my Role PM and my results last night, Ort is 100% guaranteed scum.

[Kmd4390]

I'm gonna fullclaim. Wait for it.

[Kmd4390]

I'm not suggesting the mod lied to you, I am responsible for his death. You are wrong in inferring that I am scum however.

So you think I have role based info on the specific Sudo kill, not just that you are scum? I'll be honest. I guess between Sudo and Starbuck.

I think the town should decide whether they want me or Kmd to claim, and who should do so first.

It's obvious. I'm gonna claim something investigative. You're going to claim a killing role. You should go first btw.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, that's 4 people who want me to fullclaim.

Blast-ended skrewt aka cop. I'm told that I may or may not get results, but any results I get will never fail. I got a guilty on Ort. I've already made him admit to submitting the only NK last night. He's as good as caught scum. Even if I am lynched, my flip will be more than enough reason to lynch Ort. So either way, we are lynching scum.

So no tracker abilities here. But it scared Ort into claiming the only NK, didn't it. XD

[Kmd4390]

Don't setup lynches. It makes you look horrid.

I don't have a problem with it. There are only 2 ways Ort can be town:
A) I lied. I know this to be untrue.
B) The Mod lied. Sens wouldn't do that.

Although I did ask if scum meant mafia or just a non-town role and Sens declined on commenting. So it's possible that he's an SK or whatever else and not specifically mafia. I do have a 100% guarantee that he's scum though, whatever scum means to Sens.

[Kmd4390]

Goat, you think OP would baselessly bus like that? I could see him as scum if Ort was town, but Ort is scum and I just don't see the connection.

SK, what backstep? Asking the Mod if scum meant mafia and finding out that it may or may not?

[Kmd4390]

Vote: Goat

I think you're Ort's partner, trying to distance yourself by accusing me.

Valid connection to draw, but Ort needs to be lynched first.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, that's exactly what the case was. OP

is

the kind of player to jump on to things like that though. I'm really not reading him as scum right now, especially jumping on someone who I know to be scum the way he did. If Ort flips SK, I'd look at OP closer. But Ort-OP as mafia together? Not seeing it.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, that's exactly what the case was. OP

is

the kind of player to jump on to things like that though. I'm really not reading him as scum right now, especially jumping on someone who I know to be scum the way he did. If Ort flips SK, I'd look at OP closer. But Ort-OP as mafia together? Not seeing it.

I've never played with him before, so I really have no clue what his meta looks like, but that vote on Ort raises all kinds of alarm bells, especially without any reasoning whatsoever.

OP is barely a step above being a VI. He knows the game and (usually) posts pretty regularly, but he needs improvement (OP, don't take this as an insult). He's more likely to bandwagon or make a bad case than anything. And I don't see the baseless "me too" vote on Ort going to a scumbuddy. I see either a townie seeing a lot of words and agreeing OR scum looking for an easy case to follow. The only way OP is scum is if he is in a different scum faction than Ort.

Vote: Goat

I think you're Ort's partner, trying to distance yourself by accusing me.

Valid connection to draw, but Ort needs to be lynched first.

True, which is why I am already voting Ort.

Sens doesn't require unvoting.

[Kmd4390]

Can you explain why you don't see it going to a scumbuddy? You've said that a few times, but I want to understand why you think that is the case.

Because I feel that if you are going to bus you are going to do it convincingly. You want to show that you strongly feel the player is scum and they need to be lynched. The only exception is one that I believe falls under such a different category that it has another term -- distancing. That's usually as small an attack as possible and rarely includes a vote. Quick "X is my third suspects" statements and FoS's show this.

OP's vote was clearly an "I agree with this case" vote and nothing more. It just doesn't look like bussing at all.

If I'm scum, and as bad of a player as you suggest, and I see someone post an enormous case on my scumbuddy, I will probably just assume it's a good case and hop aboard. This is literally the first time this game he has wagoned off of someone else's case, and I find it pretty suspicious that he did so off of a poor case on someone later revealed to be likely scum. My experience with new/weaker scum is that they love to bus.

Actually, if a bad player was scum and saw a case on their buddy, they'd either defend hardcore or ignore it. But I'm hesitant to say OP is a "bad" player though because he clearly actually tries and has improved. He's not exactly a newb either, but he is near the beginning stages of becoming a good player.

[Kmd4390]

I caught scum doing exactly that in a recent offsite game. I disagree with you, I think newer/weaker scum are more likely to be paranoid and try to bus their buddies or are more critical of their scum buddies than they aught to be. As in, newer/weaker scum are more likely to hop aboard weak logic aimed at their buddies because they already know the end result is correct, so they overestimate the calculations that led to that result.

Well, that's far from how I played as a newbie, but maybe that applies for other people. Like I said, OP

is

intelligent and

does

know the game, so you may have a point. I still don't think that's the case, but I can see your logic.

[Kmd4390]

lol I was investigating CDB the night I died.