Mini 788 - Fantasy Mafia [OVER]

[ortolan]

I'm willing to bet of Sudo didn't stump me. I wouldn't have been in the write up and would be "alive" right now.

What?

I don't think someone hammering themselves in general is obvscum, but my logic in this case was seeing as you were definitely going to be lynched anyway, if you refused to hammer yourself if it was inevitable anyway this made you more scummy. This might still be true, but the problem with what I said was that if you're going to be lynched anyway then there's no point speeding it up, and not seeing who the last person to hammer is deprives us of a bit of information (as it turned out, you weren't even lynched by the end of the day anyway).

[ortolan]

I'm willing to bet of Sudo didn't stump me. I wouldn't have been in the write up and would be "alive" right now.

What?

I don't think someone hammering themselves in general is obvscum, but my logic in this case was seeing as you were definitely going to be lynched anyway, if you refused to hammer yourself if it was inevitable anyway this made you more scummy. This might still be true, but the problem with what I said was that if you're going to be lynched anyway then there's no point speeding it up, and not seeing who the last person to hammer is deprives us of a bit of information (as it turned out, you weren't even lynched by the end of the day anyway).

[Starbuck]

It would have taken 8 votes to kill me on 7.

I only had 7 votes, therefore had I survived the night, I wouldn't have died.

That stumping thing that I'm currently on right now, otherwise being injured, is from Sudo using his night powers.

[ortolan]

I know all that

[ChannelDelibird]

His vote on Sudo (in his second post) was an "I can get behind that". Obviously not a joke vote, but with no reasons. Easy to say it was "for reactions", but I won't buy that.

This is weak. That would be something to pick up on if it was on page 15, sure, but on page 1? You're reaching.

For Shadow Knight's benefit:

1) My vote was not OMGUS

2) OMGUS has never been established as a scum-tell

3) You could not even clearly conclude that my second vote, that for Sudo_Nym; was not merely an extension of the random voting phase (although it happens not to be).

It is ok however, you will be forgiven as long as I see you voting Sudo_Nym in your next post

So his vote with no reason on someone who just voted him isn't OMGUS. Riiiiiight. Let's entertain that idea for a second though and go to DOOR NUMBER TWO!!! What's behind door number two? OMGUS isn't a scumtell!!! So. Why the need to say something isn't a scumtell if you don't feel you committed the act anyway? So, OMGUS? Check. Defending against a point you claim is untrue anyway? Check. Scalpal? Che-- er. wait. No scalpal. Damn.

You seem to be giving him an awful lot of credit for thinking through his random phase. Looks much more like a joke wagon on someone who happens to be voting him rather than an OMGUS vote to me. Also, I don't think saying something that you've been

accused

of doing isn't a scumtell is scummy. So far, this case fails.

Next, just as I thought. The vote was NOT a jokevote. So. What Ortolan himself has told us: His vote was supposedly not OMGUS. His vote was not a joke vote. Oh, by the way, just in case it was OMGUS (which, remember, it wasn't XD), OMGUS isn't a scumtell. What Ort has not told us: Why he voted Sudo in the first place.

Now this I do agree with, ortolan should have pointed out that it was a page 1 joke wagon. This is where his random behaviour starts to go on longer than it should, but after my above points, this is only strike 1 and it's only minor, I could see this being town overcommitting to a silly idea of a playstyle "gambit" as much as I could see it being scum trying to prolong his lack of full contribution. Not sold.

And to cap it off, "Shadow Knight, vote Sudo OR ELSE!!" Ok, not what he directly said. He just says SK is "forgiven" if he votes Sudo. Forgiven for what? Suspecting you? Oh wait, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. Forget that point![/sarcasm] (Wait, maybe it was Andy who he was "forgiving". Still, point stands either way)

Next, he even

says

that he was threatening Andy to basically hand over his vote. I took this as intentional scumminess for bad reasons, but a town tell originally. But on second glance, he is trying to take control. Get the game moving how he wants it to move. Try to set up a "too scummy" argument. I'm not letting that get in the way. Ort is scum.

I think you're just seeing what you want to see here. Ort is playing a lot like protown CES in the first few pages. I'm not saying they have the same meta and therefore Ort is protown, just that this behaviour is not necessarily scum behaviour.

In Ort's next few posts, he still refuses to give a reason to lynch Sudo. Basically, his argument comes down to "he's scum". And during this time, Ort does nothing else for the game. Just baselessly tell us to lynch Sudo.

Then. Empking is "100%" town? Well, with no Night 0, you only know this as scum. So thanks for scumclaiming.

As I think I've said, I agree with you that Ort pushed this new, sillier playstyle too long. The resemblance to CES is striking though.

And you're reading way too much into the Empking quote.

Bullshit. You know as well as I do that some townies will react badly to this. That makes them easy lynches to push. I think that's what you wanted.

This is possible.

Now he votes Andy for voting him (Ort) for being scummy? What? Isn't that a protown reaction? Voting someone who refuses to take the game seriously. But remember kids, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. :teach:. Ort already said so.

If he thought some/all of Andy's case was bullshit (as I recall, it was very similar to your case today, which

I

certainly think is largely bullshit) then it's not OMGUS, it's a vote for a bad case that might be easy to push.

He continues on Andy for a little while and then tells me not to look for connections. Ok scum, I'll be sure not to try to find your buddies.

Sounds like a playstyle difference to me (whether you think it's possible/useful to look for connections before any alignments are known)...

Not sure what to make of Goatrevolt vs Kmd at present. Could well be townie vs townie.

Making sure to address it, as you yourself said that a scummy reaction to something getting attention is not addressing it. But no solid opinions apart from that it

could

be townie on townie action.

I would agree with you here, the post you quoted does not fill me with confidence.

Because scum have no motivation to act deliberately scummy unless they are trying to throw the game, which is against site-wide rules.

Unless they want to set up a WIFOM argument that the only reason for scum to do it is to throw the game which they'd never do. OH WAIT. YOU DID THAT. XD

This is just as WIFOM as the post you quoted, you're just on the other side of the table.

Next, Ort defends Zazie's points and then asks Zazie about her opinions on Andy. Gotta redirect to the easy target now. (Btw, with Ortscum, Andy (Izzy) is likely town)

Agree with your conclusion, but also with the vice versa, which I think is more likely right now.

Zazie makes good points on Ort again, and he says "who do you suspect" after defending this time. Again, trying to shift Zazie's attention elsewhere. She didn't bite on your Andy redirection, so now you give her the option to go anywhere she chooses. But it seems clear that she suspects you, and rightfully so. (Btw, Ortscum makes Zazie is likely town.)

Not sure where I stand on this. I feel like it's a legitimate question but I haven't properly gone through that massive wall of text involving ort and Zazie yet so haven't got the full context. I'll get back to you on this.

The pattern continues as Zazie makes more good points, Ort defends some more and then asks about other players, including Starbuck and Shadow Knight, at the end of each post.

If he didn't think Zazie was addressing other players enough then asking her about players he feels she should have commented on is fine, surely?

Please guys, the scum are dominating the game, would you post more.

Now this is scummy.

If he believes the people who are also posting are scum this isn't unreasonable to say, though it does have an undercurrent of ingratiating himself. Uncomfortable on this.

The vote on Star could go either way. That was the direction we were heading anyway, so I have no problem with the vote itself. What I don't like is how you separate yourself from the lynch by saying she is "very" far from optimal. And then asking her to self-hammer is just weird.. You say only scum wouldn't self hammer, but why? Town should VERY rarely self-hammer. This was not a time for that.

This is just wrong.
1) Given that Starbuck was clearly newbtown (and it was clear as day), ortolan's disclaimer that he did not like the lynch was absolutely justified.
2) Given the imminent deadline, Starbuck selfhammering to ensure a lynch would in theory have been a protown move, if we ignore the now-obvious complications that were not known at the time.

-------------------

So, in summary, while there are a few posts from ortolan that make me a little uncomfortable, the majority of your case is much, much weaker than you seem to think it is. You look to me like scum who's decided overnight to come down hard to a player who's probably, given his silly behaviour early on, an easy target. Added to my suspicions of you yesterday (see 485), I feel comfortable right now with a

Vote: Kmd

[Kmd4390]

wall of text incoming

*Ducks*

His vote on Sudo (in his second post) was an "I can get behind that". Obviously not a joke vote, but with no reasons. Easy to say it was "for reactions", but I won't buy that.

What do you think it was for then? Do you really think I'm that arrogant as scum that I think I can just boss people around with their votes, especially with players like you in the game? What do you think I was hoping to do after Sudo_Nym got lynched and flipped town (which I would know he was if I was scum)? Do you think I'd just get away with continually doing that for the rest of the game? Yes, my early play was for reactions, just because I did something you haven't seen me do before doesn't mean it's scummy. This applies to my comments both to Shadow Knight and Andy which you brought up.

I think your vote on Sudo was baseless OMGUS. I think you were trying to show suspicion on Sudo early because he may be a threat to you. I think you did it in an irrational way just to say scum wouldn't do that.

Yes, if you are scum, you push a mislynch. Scum can mislynch just as easily as town can be wrong. It's no reason for scum not to keep pushing. You are a good enough player that you know this.

I'm not saying it's scummy because I haven't seen you do it before. I saw you as scum once (that mini where I was the beloved princess) and your play was far from being the center of attention. So this is not at all a meta argument that I am making against you.

Then. Empking is "100%" town? Well, with no Night 0, you only know this as scum. So thanks for scumclaiming.

Honestly, if I was scum the last thing I would try to do is play like I did in Past Ages at the beginning (declaring Empking town), which I'm sure you'd pick up on immediately. Don't tell me you have that little respect for my scum play . And believe me, in my experience I'm seriously good at reading Empking now, and it is helpful to get out of the way at the beginning of the game (see e.g. mod-revealed info in Lynch All Lurkers and Mushroom Kingdom 2, both large themes; although the latter is still ongoing).

Wow, I forgot about you doing that in Past Ages.

No, my concern is more that you declared 100% certainty on a player's alignment. Town can't ever be 100% sure with no Night 0 (barring roles that reveal this info in the Role PMs). So to be certain of Empking's alignment, you have to be scum.

- I disagree with you basically reiterating what ZazieR said, basically that justifying myself greatly is scummy. You can ask "why did you say OMGUS is a scumtell if you don't think you did it?" until you're blue in the face but it doesn't change the fact that OMGUS simply isn't a scumtell, in the original instance where it occurred the player that did it wasn't scum. So even if you establish that my vote was "OMGUS", whatever that's supposed to be, it's not scummy. I also denied that it was because it had reasons attached, plus in the scheme of things it was part of my early-game gambit anyway.

Actually, I didn't realize Zazie had already made some points I was making. Noticed it after I wrote the points.

Calling it a Gambit doesn't make it less scummy btw.

Now he votes Andy for voting him (Ort) for being scummy? What? Isn't that a protown reaction? Voting someone who refuses to take the game seriously. But remember kids, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. :teach:. Ort already said so.

Trying an early game gambit like that isn't "not taking the game seriously" at all, if anything it's taking it very seriously because you're potentially endangering your own survival by playing in an unorthodox way to catch scum reactions.

Keep hiding behind the Gambit...

Andy didn't know it was a "Gambit". In his eyes, you were still hiding in the RVS far too long. In his eyes, you were scummy. That warrants a vote, no?

He continues on Andy for a little while and then tells me not to look for connections. Ok scum, I'll be sure not to try to find your buddies.

IIRC it was because you said you suspected I was "busing" Andy, which is pretty ridiculous. I objected to you basically interpreting an attack on someone else automatically as a bus, which has little validity unless you can point to an extra reason why it is.

If I remember right, I asked if you were bussing. Reactionary question.

But the connections thing was because I had connected Goat to Andy. You said it wasn't a good idea to look for connections yet.

Not sure what to make of Goatrevolt vs Kmd at present. Could well be townie vs townie.

Making sure to address it, as you yourself said that a scummy reaction to something getting attention is not addressing it. But no solid opinions apart from that it

could

be townie on townie action.

I said "could well be townie vs townie", because that's the impression I got. That is not just saying "could". I do not have perfect information about the game; I do not know your and Goat's alignments but the impression I got was that it was very possibly just a misconceived fight between two townies.

But you know Emp's alignment? My point is that you could have looked into it more closely than that. I think you just acknowledged it so you wouldn't get called on it.

e.g. your lynch. Hop to it guys!

Hello Zakeri, please vote Andycya

Reading is optional before voting Andycya

I thought this was an early game approach for reactions. What do you call it when it's no longer near-RVS?

This point really doesn't make sense. If I had only "located" my gambit in the RVS, then it would have been dismissed as simply another feature of the RVS. It had to be continued beyond it to look somewhat like genuine intent otherwise no-one would have reacted to it and just dismissed it as part of the RVS.

You had already revealed the Gambit at this point.

Because scum have no motivation to act deliberately scummy unless they are trying to throw the game, which is against site-wide rules.

Unless they want to set up a WIFOM argument that the only reason for scum to do it is to throw the game which they'd never do. OH WAIT. YOU DID THAT. XD

Well it is just that, WIFOM. In my experience scum have less to gain by drawing attention to themselves at the beginning of the game than townies. Townies can afford to be mislynched more than scum can.

But the thing is, players who do that usually aren't the Day 1 lynch, especially when they have a decent reputation as a player. People start thinking the same thing I started to think. "Well, he's a better player than that, so he's got a reason to be doing this." Then they falsely think, "His reason has town motivations." I think you realized this and decided to capitalize on it.

Zazie makes good points on Ort again, and he says "who do you suspect" after defending this time. Again, trying to shift Zazie's attention elsewhere. She didn't bite on your Andy redirection, so now you give her the option to go anywhere she chooses. But it seems clear that she suspects you, and rightfully so. (Btw, Ortscum makes Zazie is likely town.)

Yes, she has said she suspects me, that much is clear. I took issue with her not looking for any other suspects, even though she should be looking for a mafia team of approximately three. I had my suspects very clearly laid out, but both she and Sudo_Nym were tunneled on me. I still think I was in the right, and they weren't justified in effectively tunneling and calling for a policy lynch on me, but we can discuss this post-game.

1) What makes you think she didn't look anywhere else?
2) Why wasn't it ok for me to look for connections if that's exactly what you want Zazie to do?
3) Where the hell did ANYONE tunnel on a "policy lynch" on you?

The pattern continues as Zazie makes more good points, Ort defends some more and then asks about other players, including Starbuck and Shadow Knight, at the end of each post.

What, are you honestly suggesting this is in any way scummy?

Constantly asking about other players when someone attacks you? Yes. You want them to say "Well, X and Y are pretty scummy too. I guess I could vote them instead if people like that option better."

Now this is scummy.

How?[/quote]

You misunderstood. I meant the next part.

Unless you're a vig, you have to vote him to get him lynched.

Also, ZazieR's rolefishing in 307 is positively hilarious

1) I fail to see fishing. It's pretty much fact that anyone who isn't a vig has to get a lynch to have their suspect killed. The only exception is an anti town role (or some other kind of killing role. Vig is most common though.)

My point was her saying "unless you're a vig" was totally unnecessary, and possibly an attempt to subtly provoke role info.

I disagree.

2) Oh, wait. Ignore this. OMGUS isn't a scumtell, right?

What???

This is me calling your attack on Zazie's so-called fishing OMGUS.

The vote on Star could go either way. That was the direction we were heading anyway, so I have no problem with the vote itself. What I don't like is how you separate yourself from the lynch by saying she is "very" far from optimal.

Um, what???? I had repeatedly said I thought she was town (which is now vindicated). Of course her lynch was suboptimal. How can you possibly take issue with me saying that? I never wanted her lynched (well until she claimed one more vote to lynch and that she could only hammer; in my experience with completed games the latter feature was only present in a scum fake-claim in Sushi Mafia; which happened after this comment).

You seemed to be, and still do, separating yourself from a probable mislynch as much as possible. Ok, you called her town. We get it.

And then asking her to self-hammer is just weird.. You say only scum wouldn't self hammer, but why? Town should VERY rarely self-hammer. This was not a time for that.

I was trying to get her to out herself as scum by refusing to self-hammer. My intentions were mistaken, as I later realised, because if she didn't one more person had to vote for her, which would necessarily give us more information. So, yes, I was mistaken. However you don't actually explain how these actions were scummy. What motivation would I have, as scum, for saying something which looks anti-town like that but doesn't actually accomplish anything beyond making people suspect me more?

You missed the point. Why is town more likely to self hammer than scum?

And how does it look anti-town?

Vote Ortolan

Extremely scummy. Needs to be lynched ASAP.

This is hypocritical. Part of your case against me was me making statements like this (I do not think it is a scumtell in either case, but you are being a hypocrite by attacking me for it but doing it yourself).

No, my issue was that you said things like this without a case. I clearly have put effort into pushing your lynch for actual reasons.

Also, lol at Sudo dying and Ortolan using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's.

How am I "using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's."? I always suspected Andycya/Izzy alongside Sudo_Nym. I acknowledge Sudo's flip makes ZazieR look more like she has town motivations. I also acknowledge Sudo's flip makes me look bad, because we had both been attacking one another and I found him very scummy. Also how is "wanting to lynch Izzy over Zazie" actually scummy, anyway? You are implying that Zazie is my scumbuddy, hence I don't want to lynch her, yet you earlier said that if I am scum Zazie is very likely to be town (which I agree with, if I am scum then Zazie

is

very likely to be town; however I am not).

No, my point is that you come out looking like you had a plan based on the Sudo kill. The only way that is possible is if you knew Sudo was dying.

Pretty much your whole case against me relies on the least charitable interpretation of my actions possible. You've also totally changed your tune since day one, you never once actively suspected me then; in favour of totally different people. I think you may well have realised that many people would be prepared to vote me day 1 (based on Empking's poll, for example), and thought you could push through a mislynch with ease. Also, many of your points are rehashes of what ZazieR has already said, even though you didn't even comment on them at the original time she made them. The timing of the case and the fact you really seem to be assuming I play scum far more incompetently than the evidence suggests makes me suspect it is disingenuous.

So, you are saying that my case is BS because the only thing between my null read on you and my "OMG SCUM, LYNCH NOW" was a Night 1, correct? Ok, I'll admit it. You're right. I BS'd a case. But tell me this. Why did you kill Sudo last night?

oh, and check out what Kmd said on the top post of this very page; while accusing me of distancing from Starbuck's mislynch (how is that any different from what I said???????????????)

Pfffffttttt.

So, in summary, while there are a few posts from ortolan that make me a little uncomfortable, the majority of your case is much, much weaker than you seem to think it is. You look to me like scum who's decided overnight to come down hard to a player who's probably, given his silly behaviour early on, an easy target. Added to my suspicions of you yesterday (see 485), I feel comfortable right now with a

Vote: Kmd

Are scum the only players who change a stance during the night? Btw, I realize I'm about to have to claim. I want to see what Ort says first. Just for fun. I already know he's scum.

[Kmd4390]

Ort, you're online. Don't worry about going point by point in my last post. Just tell me why you killed Sudo.

[ortolan]

Isn't that obvious from my day one posts? I was extremely confident he was scum

[Kmd4390]

Wait, there are multiple scum groups?

[Kmd4390]

So Ort killed Sudo. Hmm. Need to think now.

[ZazieR]

What?
Orto, explain.

[ortolan]

*zing*

you are making way too many assumptions about a SensFan setup (I am not scum)

[Kmd4390]

He might be an SK who is trying to pass himself off as vig.

[ZazieR]

Does this mean you killed him?

[Kmd4390]

The only assumption I am making is that the Mod didn't lie to me.

[ZazieR]

The only assumption I am making is that the Mod didn't lie to me.

What?

[Kmd4390]

The only assumption I am making is that the Mod didn't lie to me.

What?

Ort says I'm making assumptions. Assuming Sens told the truth in my Role PM and my results last night, Ort is 100% guaranteed scum.

[ZazieR]

Kevin, don''t softclaim.

[Kmd4390]

I'm gonna fullclaim. Wait for it.

[ortolan]

I'm not suggesting the mod lied to you, I am responsible for his death. You are wrong in inferring that I am scum however.

[ortolan]

He might be an SK who is trying to pass himself off as vig.

This is a very interesting post. There was only one death last night. I have claimed responsibility for it. Yet you are assuming I am an SK?

[ortolan]

I think the town should decide whether they want me or Kmd to claim, and who should do so first.

[ZazieR]

I say that Kevin should claim first.

[Kmd4390]

I'm not suggesting the mod lied to you, I am responsible for his death. You are wrong in inferring that I am scum however.

So you think I have role based info on the specific Sudo kill, not just that you are scum? I'll be honest. I guess between Sudo and Starbuck.

I think the town should decide whether they want me or Kmd to claim, and who should do so first.

It's obvious. I'm gonna claim something investigative. You're going to claim a killing role. You should go first btw.

[ortolan]

Kmd's obviously scum

He initially implied he had a tracking ability (which I don't dispute, there's no way he could have guessed that I targetted Sudo_Nym without this ability), but is now also breadcrumbing that he has a cop guilty on me, which is BS because I am town. Plus having both a tracking and alignment determining ability is a ridiculous claim anyway. Plus he in his last post he is seemingly implying he had an investigative ability on me, and guessed I targeted Sudo_Nym, even though it was clear that Starbuck's "death" resulted from Sudo using his ability for anyone who read the reveal scene. Finally, regardless of anything else he's said, he claims he is "tossing up" between whether I am an SK or vig. If he is a town investigative role, and saw me kill Sudo_Nym, the only unaccounted for death, why would he assume I am an SK rather than mafia?

Kmd = scum tracker

Plus, he wants me to "claim first" even though I've already claimed 1) a killing role 2) who targeted Sudo_Nym 3) not to be scum i.e. town-aligned. What more does he actually want me to claim, unless he just wants more fuel for this bizarre fake-claim he's trying to pull off?