Mini 778 - Inventor Mafia (OVER)

[Tarhalindur]

Never mind, I know exactly where that vote is going:

Done:

ZWET post 130: what? I don't get what you are saying here.
zwet post 132: Could you do with a little less childishness here. I feel like this is a no you comment. (roll eyes)
ace: post 139: why didn't you look at your PM for confirmation before posting this?
tar post 150: you do know that a few games you pointed out I was scum so if I wasn't really joking as much in any of those games how is my joking scummy?
tar post 151: no. It's fake. If i posted crap and made a flub reason for voting would you consider that scum hunting?
zazie post 159: How do you think it was a misunderstanding. Why do you think that Ace didn't look at his PM to confirm if their was instructions or not.
LGB post 182: Note to self didn't expand on his vote or reasoning for vote any further and stands by a policy lynch rather then scum hunting.
I'd like to know why tar points to only 3 people to make cases. There are plenty of people I found who either vote erraticly (zwet) post and vote with back and forth comments that make me hit my head on the desk (emp and darox) and little to no comments for others (LGB) and since I know who LGB actual is yay I expect a bit more just like people expect more from me.
mastin post 245 and others: Why do you think the number of post actually mean anything. I have seen town post less then stellar comments. I have seen scum come in strong and agressive so please explain how any of that is not a null tell.
By the way Izzy is my alt.
zwet: post 259 OMG I agree with you. Call's hell ask if everything is okay down there.
Luna post 262: has some obseravations but I really don't see who she thinks is scum in this post. Why 2 FOS and no votes or strong conclusions?


I just realized Emp has been really quiet this game. Darox is all over the place for me and I can't get a solid read on him or zwet.
Mastin's big post was meh and reason's were meh. I can't tell you the number of times I see scum or town post different from day to day or game to game. It really isn't a big tell in my book.
So far LGB still leads the pack as my biggest suspect based on his policy lynch comment and lack of scum hunting that has gone no where.
zwet and darox running circles as they are is in my highly questionable category.
Ace's comment and saying he didn't check his PM could be a scum tactic to find information about what the PM's say. I don't like it.
I haven't seen much but question for Zazie and although aggressive I feel it is missing something when I read her post.

This is NOT a town PBPA. It's an IIoA variant, one of the first ones I identified (and one I should probably identify as an independent tell) - the fine art of saying nothing at all in a few hundred words.

More importantly, compare farside's conclusions to the conclusions in this PBPA from Medieval Mafia:

first off

unvote

I want a clean slate as I read what's happened since Thursday.


Post 764 - kore: what's wrong with a case "out of thin air"? I realized I had been getting bad vibes from kmd all game, and decided to go look at him a bit closer.
Post 771 - qwints: wait, so what? That's a horrible reason for a softclaim, especially when it does the exact opposite thing that you're trying to do.
Post 774 - Yos: I agree with Yosarian2.
Post 781 - DGB: So one post you like is better than everything else he's done?
Post 788 - Caboose: Why isn't it scummy?
Post 795 - Jebus: *twitch*
Post 800 - scot: stark's not posting at all. How would he be able to jump from one popular wagon to another?
Post 809 - Xyl: Why is this a higher priority than qwints, who actually is being scummy?
Post 826 - Xyl: I really don't like this post by Xyl, because he's blaming someone else for something that's completely his fault.
Post 846 - camn: Got any reasons for that or just throwing it out there?
Post 869 - tajo: Thanks for noticing I was V/LA, tajo, it's not like I was lurking. I didn't post

anywhere

from Thursday-Tuesday. Also, if he is scum, we shouldn't let qwints survive to following days.
Post 882 - tajo: It seems to me like this is saying that you know qwints is town. Why is that? Would you rather lynch someone who's not going to be useful in the future or someone who will actually do stuff that we can find out if they're scum later?
Post 901 - kmd: Hmm, I dislike the "no one can look at your voting records" argument. I find looking at "voting records" is talked about as being a better idea than it actually is. Looking at everything else is usually smarter, with looking at vote

context

being the best idea.
Post 912 - qwints: this doesn't say anything. Can you actually say something in this game?
Post 917 - sam: Saying that you're not going to read Xyl's posts is anti-town. What if you're in endgame with him and one other person?
Post 926 - sam: Not reading a certain person's posts is really anti-town.
Post 943 - Xyl: Why? what's

wrong

right with qwints?
Post 963 - farside: Is that really all you have to say?
Post 973 - qwints: How have you not been lynched yet?
Post 984 - Xyl: This seems like a possible lead-in to an attack on Yos. Xyl, why'd you feel it necessary to make this comment?
Post 988 - kmd: What is interesting about this? This seems to be yet another inane comment that you're making too many of in this whole game.'
Post 1004 - Xyl: Why? What has he done to make you think that?
Post 1006 - tajo: Dang it tajo, I was V/LA. Did you not catch that when multiple people said it?
Post 1010 - Xyl: What evidence against him was weak? Why is a fast wagon a sign of the wagoned player being town as opposed to pretty obvious scum?
Post 1019 - sam: A) I've been V/LA, B) I'm not scum, C) the rest of the town finds other people scummier
Post 1022 - Xyl: I'm not really a big fan of pulling out your own meta as a defense. meta should be a defense looked at by others to try to figure out if you're scum or town.
Post 1027 - Rogueben: I think qwints has the most value at this point. Jebus has been replaced, so I'm giving the replacement time to let me get a good read on him.

conclusions:
farside is way too quiet this game. I've never seen her this quiet. Feels off to me.
I don't like Xyl/Kore claming their own meta as their defense, although Kore feels better to me as she was attempting to explain why she uses her meta, but I don't remember seeing too much from Xyl besides "I always do this, so it's not scummy". If I'm missing something though, feel free to point it out. Not to mention that he tried to blame the derailing of the qwints wagon on Kore when nobody else even cared and he was the only one to unvote qwints because of it.

FoS: Xyl

I'm not a fan of tajo trying to build my wagon while I was V/LA, but I can somewhat understand it.
Looking back at kmd's case after some time away from the game, it's not as bad as I originally thought, but it was still a bit difficult to find the points.
qwints really needs to die. Not going to vote immediately as A) I want a votecount to see what it looks like and B) I want people to actually read this before night.

I can't explicitly identify why farside's conclusions remind me so strongly of hasdgfas's conclusions in this PBPA, much less put it in words, but I am intuitively certain that these are both scum PBPAs. And I trust my intuition.

Vote: farside22

Vote Count:

AceMarksman (3) - Semioldguy, Lobstermania, Zazier
Darox (1) - AceMarksman
Empking (1) - LeakingGoofball
Farside22 (1) - Tarhalindur
LeakingGoofball (1) - Farside22
Lobstermania (2) - Mastin, Darox
LunaLouise (0) -
Mastin (0) -
Semioldguy (0) -
Tarhalindur (0) -
Zazier (0) -
Zwetschenwasser (1) - Empking

AceMarksman is V/LA through the 14th.
Tarhalindur is on V/LA through the 15th.
LunaLouise is V/LA 15th-25th.
RBT is V/LA 20th-27th

[Tarhalindur]

I sort of agree with semioldguy. But I think he has underestimated the power of activity sheets. If we cross reference that with metas we can deduce who's scum quite early.

Here's a nice equation for you:

Weasely language + Mafia theory + no sign of scumhunting =/= Town alignment.

Care to tell me who you think is scum, and why?

FoS: LeakingGoofball

In somewhat related news:

Mastin has about three or four days to convince me he's town (I'll explain WHY I currently think he's likely scum at that time - what I'm seeing right now MIGHT be explained by inactivity upon replacing in, but I have my doubts).

FoS: Mastin

ZazieR needs to become considerably more active, and fast... because she HASN'T exhibited her town supertell yet, and I'm becoming increasingly dubious that this is because she hasn't had enough time to show it.

FoS: ZazieR

[AceMarksman]

@tar: Can I have a link to your questions?

3) Darox, I would like to see point-by-point rebuttal of AceMarksman's case, showing exactly HOW his case on you is invalid. Now, please

^This

[Darox]

3) Darox, I would like to see point-by-point rebuttal of AceMarksman's case, showing exactly HOW his case on you is invalid. Now, please.

Come on, really?

Ace's case, where he becomes sure I'm totally scum, in his own words.

I also want Darox to explain why he voted me seemingly without looking back to see what ZEEnon was talking about. It seems really opportunistic to me, and his unvote and vote on ZEEnon look like scum realizing that he made a mistake and covering his tracks.

PBPA of Darox. (post numbers reference posts in isolation)

post 0: Right off the bat, Darox comes and appeals to the town's emotions. He votes me, calls me obv scum, and then calls the town stupid for not doing the same. Notice he posts no case against me, and voices no objections to anything I have said.
post-1: It takes questioning by Zazier in order for Darox to make a case against me. It's very contrived, and I don't want to have to go back point by point against it. If you wish, here is my defense against/attack of it. Notice, tar the

"IGMEO Darox

at the end.
posts 2, 3, and 4: Here Darox does nothing but sling dirt and insults at people. He doesn't refute my defense/attacks of his posts, instead he calls me stupid (post 2). He also slams empking with a post critisizing his reading comprehension skills (post 3), and then fluffs in four.
Posts 6, 7, and 8: These posts offer more of the same. Instead of presenting cases against his main suspect (me), he just starts smearing people.
Posts 11 and 12: here is where Darox's playstle takes a turn for the scummiest. To refresh your memory, ZEEnon votes me here and Darox follows him without even checking to see why. This is inherantly scummy, but when I ask him about it, Darox refuses to answer, instead he calls me stupid (again).

The crux of his case is me making a typo when voting for ZEEnon, as well as me making fun of him for being so blindly dumb.
So Tar, the reason I haven't felt any need to defend against Ace's case is because it's a total joke.

If you want in down in points, here we go.
- Making a typing mistake when voting is not a scumtell, if said vote is not a hammer and is corrected quickly
- Making fun of people for being unable to comprehend the sequence of events is not a scumtell.

I find the fact that you didn't see this pretty suspect, as a glance at the event would pretty quickly reveal that Ace had no case. I mean, even zwetschenwasser realizes Ace is full of it after he takes a reread.

What gives Tar?

[Empking]

I concur. Farside, I didn't understand Emp's earlier post.

I stopped trying to understand Emp after my last game with him. I will never ever understand his logic.

Farside; What post was Zwet agreeing with?

[farside22]

I concur. Farside, I didn't understand Emp's earlier post.

I stopped trying to understand Emp after my last game with him. I will never ever understand his logic.

Farside; What post was Zwet agreeing with?

I thought the whole thing was just rediculous on both your parts. Sem's comment about you bumping the thread. zwet's facepalm which is normal no matter his alignment. your questions which I don't get why your asking what your asking.
It's an incredible sad page

[Empking]

I concur. Farside, I didn't understand Emp's earlier post.

I stopped trying to understand Emp after my last game with him. I will never ever understand his logic.

Farside; What post was Zwet agreeing with?

I thought the whole thing was just rediculous on both your parts. Sem's comment about you bumping the thread. zwet's facepalm which is normal no matter his alignment. your questions which I don't get why your asking what your asking.
It's an incredible sad page

What post was Zwet agreeing with?

[Mastin]

Let's see how much I can comment on in 20 minutes. (NOTE: Rushed. As I am speed-reading this, I might miss something important or classify something that should be commented on as not worthy of comments. Please do point this out if this is the case.)

Doesn't the mere fact that he's requesting replacement at this pressuring stage solidify opinions that he's scum?

ZEE dropped out of almost all his games, to my knowledge. He's still in some, though, so I suppose it is possible.

What made you say this?

Errm, because it's the truth, Darox?
I've got long posts in almost all my games.
I've got many long posts in most of my games.
I've got no completed games as scum,
And in any games where I am scum, I would do the best to act as if I were that role, anyway. (My personal opinion: The key to scumsess is to put yourself into the mind of what role you claim to be, and to stick through it 'til the end. )Which is why I am a hard read, and why the warning is necessary. I've got four completed games of experience as a pro-town player. Two of which are vanilla town. (I'm assuming I am vanilla town until I actually see what my box does. I recommend that, once everyone who isn't scum figure out what they do, for them to do their best to act as if nothing has changed.)
Yet, still, I have played inconsistently throughout my games.
I don't know what Tar's supposed Super Tell is. (Nor do I know what Luna will think of further content from me)

Tunneling,
Long posts,
Arrogance,
A big ego,
Confidence,
Recklessness,
An instant opinion of who the scum are,
Rereading the thread,
Seeing both sides of any given argument,
Pointing out misunderstandings,
Getting night-killed (Well, we'll have to wait 'til n1 to see if this is true. ),
Being FoS'd by half the players alive,
Self-voting in the random voting stage (we're past it, so I didn't do it this game),
Getting distracted by other games...

I've done them all in the majority of my games. It could be any of them. And worse is how I've played differently as the same roles in different games. Simply put, I haven't settled down into a style that I apply to every game. Every game's unique, and I'm--despite having the experience I do--still, well, changing. Trying to become the best player I can, via changing my style here and there, offering new options to the rest of the town, trying to contribute as much as possible before being night-killed (generally, this means that either I will contribute a LOT day one, and hope it carries over throughout the game, or I will contribute a decent amount, but not a lot, in the hopes of dodging a night-kill or two in order to contribute more to the game in the following days. I've done both.), etc.

I use Meta in my arguments all the time. I encourage others to do so as well. But I just don't see how a read of me can be able to deduce my alignment, when I've been changing my playstyle all the time.
(Yea, yea. I know. Consistency is a town tell, inconsistency is a scum tell. Yet inconsistency between games where you shared the exact same role is something else entirely. For example, in Bleach Mafia, I was far less confident, only becoming confident a few real-life days before the lynch. Yet in Newbie 763, an ongoing game at exactly the same time, I immediately attacked Ivanavich and Chief as the scum, and held onto this opinion until very later on. Opposite attitudes, for the same role of Vanilla Town.)

------
This argument is becoming more and more, well, pointless. Discussing how effective metagaming is won't do any good, nor will questioning why I bring these points up. (They're mostly warnings/defenses of my actions, but I fail to see how they're an indication of alignment in my case.)

Vote Count:
AceMarksman (4) - Semioldguy, ZEEnon, Zazier, Tarhalindur
Darox (1) - AceMarksman
Empking (1) - LeakingGoofball
Farside22 (1) - Empking
LeakingGoofball (1) - Farside22
LunaLouise (0) -
Mastin (0) -
Semioldguy (0) -
Tarhalindur (0) -
Zazier (0) -
ZEEnon (2) - Mastin, Darox
Zwetschenwasser (0) -

Say, wha? I'm voting for Zee? :/

Mastin Unvotes: ZEEnon

.

------
The Zwet/Empking debate I find rather humorous. It's a debate between two people who both use one-liners, who both have had suggested policy lynches, who both have histories of not contributing that much.

As to what it is, though,
If one of the two were to appear more pro-town than the other from that argument, it was definitely Empking.

is this discussion, in fact, getting us anywhere?

Discussion is discussion. It's always useful later on in the game, when we have bodies. At this very moment, though, the discussion in question (About bumps) I agree is rather pointless. Important later, worthless now.

Even if you are behind, you still haven't really commented much on the first ten pages

That's a problem with me. When I've already read the game through, I've already practically given my thoughts on it, just to myself. (Something I've noted:
If I've read 5+ pages before replacing in, I don't generally give thoughts on the game so far. I can think of one incident where I did, but can think of several where I didn't. If I haven't read a thing before replacing in, I generally give a practical PBPA. Either a series of short posts, or one gigantic huge post. Depends on the length of the game before I join. I can think of several examples of me doing this, yet none come to mind where I didn't.)

So it becomes harder for me to give the thoughts to others when I actually start playing. It becomes easier over time.

You did the posting amount-content-frequency analysis post

I have to admit, this is something which might not be of much use right now, but certainly will be later on in determining alignment. It helps get a feeling from players in cases where I've already read, formed some basic conclusions, yet am far from a few good, solid opinions.

A lot of what you have posted so far has just been describing your own play style and pointing to other games.

A lot of the points against me have been criticizing my play, to which the natural defense for me is to point out why I do it (style) and proof of it (games). If someone were to make a case against me that doesn't involve that, then I wouldn't use it in my defense.

Instead of saying how you are going to be doing things, just do them.

Alright.

Like I said, it's hard to form opinions.

However, my top suspects as of this moment are Semi and Ace. Zwet comes in a close third. The first and third, from the last few pages. The second, for the earlier. It's hard to explain, and I'm put of time.

Mastin has about three or four days to convince me he's town

All I can do to this is contribute more, I suppose.

(I'll explain WHY I currently think he's likely scum at that time - what I'm seeing right now MIGHT be explained by inactivity upon replacing in, but I have my doubts).

Seriously, I don't get what's the matter. Any point against me that I can think of I can defend as me having done as town/not having done as scum. The suspense is large, but knowing that revealing what it is would nullify the point of holding back, I'll have to wait.

[farside22]

I concur. Farside, I didn't understand Emp's earlier post.

I stopped trying to understand Emp after my last game with him. I will never ever understand his logic.

Farside; What post was Zwet agreeing with?

I thought the whole thing was just rediculous on both your parts. Sem's comment about you bumping the thread. zwet's facepalm which is normal no matter his alignment. your questions which I don't get why your asking what your asking.
It's an incredible sad page

What post was Zwet agreeing with?

I took what he said as as that page in general.

[Riceballtail]

Lobstermania replaces ZEEnon

[semioldguy]

Seriously, I don't get what's the matter. Any point against me that I can think of I can defend as me having done as town/not having done as scum.

But I just don't see how a read of me can be able to deduce my alignment, when I've been changing my playstyle all the time.

What good does it do you to defend your playstyle as having done the same thing as town in the past if you claim to constantly be changing the way you play the same roles all the time?

[zwetschenwasser]

So mastin is read-immune? Don't buy it.

[Mastin]

What good does it do you to defend your playstyle as having done the same thing as town in the past if you claim to constantly be changing the way you play the same roles all the time?

Read the whole thing:

While my playstyle is constantly changing (which is why discrepancies in behaviors are not a hint at alignment), some parts of it will remain the same, and those parts I can defend. For the things that I've done that are not something I did in the past, I can easily cite the reason for the change.

For example, if I posted novels one day, and one-liners the next. "Albert changed my opinion on the matter somewhat." (Alternatively, "The more I post, the more I get night-killed. >_> Simple Solution: talk less. Also alternatively, other games held my attention.)
(Which is true. 763, overnight change in playstyle, due to Albert B. Rampage. I still prefer long posts, but have come to accept that it is often best to hold back. I also got night-killed due to being "Way too competent a player to be kept alive". I still say it was for me posting too much. <_<)

So mastin is read-immune? Don't buy it.

Nobody who's called me scum off of anything other than game mechanics (special rules, cop results, etc.) has ever been correct. I've received countless FoS's in my time, several L-1 forced claims...you get the idea. I'm always proven pro-town, for I defend myself well, and those opinions are justly reversed. (...Which is why I constantly think about using Slayer's Gambit just to keep the night-kill away, for someone who most people say is pro-town will earn a death fairly quickly. Really, I might as well paint a sign on my head, labeled "Night-kill me!" with a big red dot in the middle to give them a nice target... :/)

[lobstermania]

Hey everyone. I just replaced in, so I'm going to do a read-though and try to figure out what's going on.
I'm still a little confused on these boxes....

[Mastin]

I'm still a little confused on these boxes....

Eh, most of us are.

Quite personally, I wish this were a night-start. That way, everyone (and not just the scum) would know what role they have (sure, we'd have a dead body or two, but it'd at least relieve the pressure of not knowing). Instead, we just know what box we have. All we can do if put at a bad situation is claim what color box we have. We can't claim a role, because we simply don't know yet. :/

[AceMarksman]

Except you've got to use a box the night you open it.

[Mastin]

Except you've got to use a box the night you open it.

I was under the impression that these were not one-shot abilities.

[Mastin]

All devices may only be used once, and only used on the night they are constructed.

Oh, right.
<--Ignore the idiot rambling. He's a moron, that Mastin. :/

[AceMarksman]

Nobody who's called me scum off of anything other than game mechanics (special rules, cop results, etc.) has ever been correct. I've received countless FoS's in my time, several L-1 forced claims...you get the idea. I'm always proven pro-town, for I defend myself well, and those opinions are justly reversed.

That's because you've only been scum once in a completed game.

[Riceballtail]

Hey everyone. I just replaced in, so I'm going to do a read-though and try to figure out what's going on.
I'm still a little confused on these boxes....

If someone is genuinely confused about a mechanic in this game, you are allowed to PM me or ask a question in the thread. I will answer to the best of my non-game-altering ability.

Also, thought about a night start, decided against it. Especially since nights will likely be substantially longer.

[semioldguy]

What good does it do you to defend your playstyle as having done the same thing as town in the past if you claim to constantly be changing the way you play the same roles all the time?

Read the whole thing:

While my playstyle is constantly changing (which is why discrepancies in behaviors are not a hint at alignment), some parts of it will remain the same, and those parts I can defend. For the things that I've done that are not something I did in the past, I can easily cite the reason for the change.

For example, if I posted novels one day, and one-liners the next. "Albert changed my opinion on the matter somewhat." (Alternatively, "The more I post, the more I get night-killed. >_> Simple Solution: talk less. Also alternatively, other games held my attention.)
(Which is true. 763, overnight change in playstyle, due to Albert B. Rampage. I still prefer long posts, but have come to accept that it is often best to hold back. I also got night-killed due to being "Way too competent a player to be kept alive". I still say it was for me posting too much. <_<)

This is bad because basically you are saying that others cannot legitimately attack you based on your previous playstyles, yet you can still legitimately defend your actions here by pointing to your previous playstyles. Do you see something wrong with that method of thinking?

[Mastin]

That's because you've only been scum once in a completed game.

Not even that much, Ace. 688 doesn't even count.

This is bad because basically you are saying that others cannot legitimately attack you based on your previous playstyles

Oh, they're free to attack me for them, call them anti-town all they want to. They'd probably be right, in that it isn't as beneficial to the town as I personally believe my style is. (Due to my ego)
Calling me scum for it, not so much. I did it as a pro-town player, more likely than not, so to attack me for something that I did as a pro-town player is silly.

yet you can still legitimately defend your actions here by pointing to your previous playstyles

As they reflect my actions here by pointing to previous games.
Like I said, metagaming is a powerful tool. I just don't think it works on me, unless the person comes to conclusion of "Yes, he's pro-town". (This may be what makes me appear to be, well, a "popular choice of night actions", mostly mafia kills, as they view me as both a good player, and a player who is nearly impossible to lynch in most cases.)

[ZazieR]

Starting my catch-up right now.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR has a fairly clear supertell (I was running about 80%-90% accurate on her during the isolation reads), but it takes her some time to really exhibit it. I'm not going to tell you exactly what that tell is - not yet, at least - because I don't want to give ZazieR the easy path to trying to subvert meta.

'Being very stubborn when she thinks is right. As she knows she isn't right when she's scum, she isn't as fierce regarding her suspicions. So as town, Zazie mostly attacks the player who she thinks is scum, and as scum, she'll keep everyone in mind.'
Amirite?

[ZazieR]

Because I read it as a justification - a contrived one, yes, but still a justification instead of a backtrack (note that her post was explaining how her previous comment was consistent with her play in recent games). See post 211:

I've checked. She has said it in other games as well.

Third paragraph: "seemingly", "seems". Again, note the wishy-washy, people.

I don't like post 122 (Ace)
It

seems

like you were trying to test the waters of a SOG wagon before committing yourself to it.

What's your reason for not mentioning my post, while I also used 'seem'?

Strange that you only attack Ace for 'backtracking', but not me or Farside for her post as I already said. Why's that?

Maybe yours didn't feel nearly as wishy-washy as his did.

Or, I decided that now wasn't the time to bring up that post.

One of these is true. Probably. I'll elaborate on which later.

Uhm, thanks for answering my question?