Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Kmd4390]

Ok, need to respond to scum again.

Nobody ever called it anti-town before Korts. Not once. I didn't think anyone here even knew that meta. How would it help me as scum coming into this game?

You may have been able to avoid the RVS, if Korts didn't call you on it.

Avoid the RVS? I fucking joke voted. That's what you do in the RVS. RVS. Random voting stage. I made a random vote, not truly random. Just like everyone else does. Discussion came from the RVS. Just like any other game. How the fuck am I "avoiding" the RVS by voting?

How fucking dense are you? Did I tell you to do anything? No. I said I know what OMGUS is by now.

By telling me that you knew what OMGUS was, you were implicitly rebutting my defence. I was telling you that it was a crap argument, because it is.

How is it a crap argument. I've said specifically why it's OMGUS. All you say is "nuh-uh".

Now you're arguing that it's subconscious OMGUS, something you are aware of, but I'm not (or at least saying that it's a possibility - incidentally, subconscious OMGUS seems like a towntell to me). I'm saying that my case is more than that, and you're being dismissive.

You misunderstood me. My theory is that subconscious OMGUS happens. Someone attacks you, you'll want to attack them. This is regardless of alignment. You either are town and honestly start to see them as scum, or you are scum and start to see them as too protown and needing to die.

It's indefnsible (is that a word?) why? Because you said so?

Yes, indefensible is a word. And yes, your position is indefensible. Your initial vote meant you avoided the RVS, and you've gone to great lengths to say that it meant nothing. But doing something that means nothing is just the same as doing nothing, so why do it at all?

Because that's how mafia games start. By making something of nothing. That's exactly what happened. And you didn't see it as a big deal at all until after I voted you.

I am conscious that the original vote reason was not very solid at all. It wasn't OMGUS, but I voted based on your actions and my read of you.

What changed between the time there was no side to pick and the time you voted me? Because you looked at the same point to say both.

Since then, your responses have been scummy, and my case has developed. I would be more than happy to ignore the "jokevote" scenario and still keep my vote on you.

I could say the same thing, scum.

Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

Again

with the false dichotomies. My read on ZazieR is pretty null, given that she hasn't posted in ages and I had a null read back when she was posting.

So you don't think it benefits me as scum to see her as town and yet it's scummy to see her as town? Still not following you here. How are you dumb enough to honestly believe this? You are either scum or the most retarded townie I have ever seen.

I think your statement that you were "very sure" that she is town was an unsupported, scummy statement. That does not mean that I think ZazieR is scummy, or that I have to establish that to make my point.

How was it unsupported. I said it was based on meta and even said what specifically she did that she normally does as town.

I didn't vote you on meta alone. I said that the meta added to the already existing case. With the meta dismissed, that addition is dismissed as well. Everything else is still there.

The point is that you didn't read it!

You just said "oh, that's another point against Percy!" without bothering to do your research. Sure, you retracted your statement when you were caught out, but that doesn't make the initial statement any better.

Fair enough.

I had a strong town read on a player who provided meta. I was wrong to blindly trust that meta.

What knowledge did I claim? And when? Quote it.

That's just the point - there is nothing in the thread to give you a "very town" read.

You

claimed that she was very town and didn't say why, beyond a meta impression. I'm saying that no meta impression can be that strong, and you haven't provided any evidence to show us why we should think she's town.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME

I'm sick of repeating this. My read is that she was town because she normally asks a lot of questions as town. If you want me to go through every single post she made before I said that and compare it exactly with a game where she was scum and a game where she was town, I could do it. I personally think that would be a waste of time, but that is exactly why I have the read I do. I'm not here to make your opinions for you. I'm here to get my own reads and push my own cases. I think I'm doing that right now.

Actually, scum should pay more attention than town. They need to know how to control the game. Which players to paint as scummy. You get it though. You are doing a pretty decent job here as scum.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Town can only win if they participate and read everything. Scum can just skim and get vibes and pick and choose a few quotes. Good scum should read, but scum can get away with not reading.

Bullshit scum can get away with not reading. Scum HAVE to read in order to make cases that are actually convincing. Just as much as, if not more than town.

Why the fuck are town reads scummy in a game where scum don't even kill?

Have you noticed all the attention kirroha's getting for her read of me? Do you think that her actions should be dismissed? Oh wait, no, you think that the kirroha/Percy axis is great, and that kirroha should be lynched! At least

try

to be consistent.

Kirroha flat out said she WON'T LET us lynch you. That is a terrible stance to take. Looks like newbie scum whose buddy is going down. When you flip scum, I'm setting my effort on Kirroha next.

You also asked me where you strawmanned, misrepped and established false dichotomies. The instances are clearly marked in my posts, including this one.

Don't throw around words you don't understand unless you can point to them specifically. Go play a newbie game. The ICs will tell you what all this stuff means. Maybe you can be scum with an IC too. They'll show you how not to get caught like this.

----------------

Can we lynch this guy now?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also I seem to be getting bad vibes from my partner mostly because he trys to counter a arguement using Wifom. News flash: Any argument that your not 100 percent sure of can be reduced to Wifom. Including all of your buddying talks. Including your likely partner chats. Yet you use this as the basis of your arguments? Why?

Is the "argument" the post above where I responded to kmd?

[Sajin]

@DDD- 106 156 172 are the post numbers where I concluded that off of.

[hohum]

Guys: Please take note of my sig and be responsible about posting while I am gone. Please do not let this game languish

[hohum]

I will also consider a deadline extension in light of my absense

[farside22]

I will be here to watch over the game in hohum's leave. I do prod often so don't make me hunt you down.

[Amished]

Thanks farside!

I'm still looking for more of kirroha and percy to keep answering questions specifically of them, mostly due to the fact that they're raising the most red flags. The reason I'm not questioning them is due to the fact that their red flags are always directed at other players, and they can just as easily (and so far have) questioned the two of them about the same as I would, and I don't feel it's productive to ask the same question twice.

I would also like to hear from our replacement (Sajin) more about DDD, and then perhaps the rest of the town as a whole as well. I'd also like to hear your thoughts about using the quicktopic.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD- 106 156 172 are the post numbers where I concluded that off of.

I think you mean 104 since 106 is a Korts post.

Anyways, I'm just not understanding your criticism. As Amished and I have discussed there are three logical explanations for Kirroha's overly emotional plea to not lynch Percy. Town kirroha defending someone she truly believes is a townie, scum kirroha defending a partner, or scum kirroha defending a townie to try and look both right and misdirect the town. I happen to believe the third explanation fits best, but people in could hold the first or second position in good faith. Frankly, I'm not sure why my position on this bothers you.

[Sajin]

Because, DDD, your using WIFOM as the basis for your attacks and your defense. Thats hypocritical at best and scummy at worst.

[Percy]

@Korts: You voted Kmd, and now you've voted me. Can you explain why?

Because I think you're scum. The Kmd vote has also been explained already.

Why do you think I'm scum? You were voting Kmd, then post 153 seems to indicate that you don't like Kmd's replies so far, but because of kirroha's comments you think I'm scum. Then you vote me. I'd like to know exactly how I earned your vote.

No, I voted kirroha to see what the reactions would be. That's a single reason and a fairly clear one.

OK, thanks for finally clearing that up. It was not clear before now, despite your insistence. Did you see any relevant reactions that are worth mentioning?

How is it a crap argument. I've said specifically why it's OMGUS. All you say is "nuh-uh".

Like your response was any better - "it is OMGUS even if you're not aware of it, because it's subconscious".

You are either scum or the most retarded townie I have ever seen.

Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.

If I'm lynched today and you're actually pro-town, I know you'll step away from your computer and think about how terrible a player I was, how it was all my fault, how you are the mafia king and how it doesn't really mean anything about your mafia abilities that you are so wrong about me. You're still great at mafia. You're

awesome

. You've played 70 games! It's really all

my

fault!

Have fun with that.

I said it was based on meta and even said what specifically she did that she normally does as town.

Yes, you did. However, I don't agree that you could have the strong impression you had, and still think there's a good possibility that you were buddying.

Kirroha flat out said she WON'T LET us lynch you. That is a terrible stance to take. Looks like newbie scum whose buddy is going down. When you flip scum, I'm setting my effort on Kirroha next.

Or that she's newbie scum who wants townie points from being against a town lynch. kirroha's alignment is independent of mine, as far as I can see.

Anyone who is even thinking of voting for me because of kirroha's actions is on drugs.

Don't throw around words you don't understand unless you can point to them specifically. Go play a newbie game. The ICs will tell you what all this stuff means. Maybe you can be scum with an IC too. They'll show you how not to get caught like this.

This is both lazy and unnecessarily mean. I am certainly not the most experienced mafia player, but you're being disingenuous in the extreme.

I marked them clearly. Look, I've even gone to the bother of quoting it all for you below. I've either bolded or inserted comments to make it

even easier

for you to read.

You asked my opinion of Zaz. I said I'm very sure she's town. Now you are attacking me for answering your question. Am I supposed to lie and say she is scummy? Because she really isn't. I'm not giving specific meta because the second I do, her meta changes whether she is trying to change it or not. Awareness of one's own meta means it no longer exists (unless it's an intentional meta).

I agree that she is a smart player. But there still is a difference between her town and scum game. Maybe I'm not an expert at picking her out as scum, but I can sometimes pick her out as town, and she's playing how she does when I do.

Firstly, I'm not attacking you for answering the question. I'm attacking you because your answer is crap. (

Misrepresentation, inducing a strawman

)

Secondly, you suggest that the only alternative to saying "I'm very sure she's town" is "I think she's scummy", which it's not. It's a

false dichotomy (look, I even said those exact words.

). My original attack was on your use of "very sure".

OMGUS is voting for someone who is voting you. I don't care whether you're voting for me, and I've built up a case that is more than "I don't like him because he's voting for me". If you continue to characterise it as such, you are

strawmanning (there, said it plainly)

my argument.

...
I'm going out of my way to defend her by saying I think she is town when a player asks me for my read on her? Interesting. Guess I should have ignored the question, right? That's pretty protown.

...
3. Once again, I am not objecting to you answering the question that I asked. I've corrected you once on this, so there it is again. I'm objecting to your answer. (

Further misrepping/strawmanning

)

Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

Again with the

false dichotomies (look, it's right here)

. My read on ZazieR is pretty null, given that she hasn't posted in ages and I had a null read back when she was posting.

So, yeah. Don't you accuse me of being unclear and "too amateur for Kmd's awesomeness", because I have been transparent from the beginning.

I've been thinking more and more that Kmd may simply be tunnelled town, and a jerk. My own personal desire to be vindicated has outstripped my objectivity and value to the town. Most other players have been happy to just step back and let us fight it out, which is never a good sign.

Kmd has been evasive and done the three things that I've said over and over again (misrep, strawman, false dichotomies), and I pointed them out. My case is, at the moment, centred around his poor responses to my attacks rather than the initial charges I levelled, and I can't tell the difference in my head any more between Kmd being scum and Kmd and I tunnelling and clashing and blowing things out of proportion.

I don't think I have enough of a case to vote Kmd. If I am lynched, we can't afford another mislynch, and I don't want to develop the Kmd/Percy axis any more than I have, because I just don't have good, objective arguments any more as to why he should die after me, or vice versa. We're getting close to the deadline, and I feel that I need to widen my focus with a solid re-read.

Unvote

.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Because, DDD, your using WIFOM as the basis for your attacks and your defense. Thats hypocritical at best and scummy at worst.

Does anyone agree with this guy and can subsequently explain what he's driving at? Because I'm not seeing his point at all.

[Kmd4390]

Like your response was any better - "it is OMGUS even if you're not aware of it, because it's subconscious".

That was

one

possibility. I actually think you are more than aware of your OMGUS.

Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.

If I'm lynched today and you're actually pro-town, I know you'll step away from your computer and think about how terrible a player I was, how it was all my fault, how you are the mafia king and how it doesn't really mean anything about your mafia abilities that you are so wrong about me. You're still great at mafia. You're awesome. You've played 70 games! It's really all my fault!

Have fun with that.

Did I ever say that?

I said that if you are town, you are retarded. I'd stand by that, but I'd still be upset about being wrong. That is how I am. I'd blame myself before I'd blame you.

Yes, you did. However, I don't agree that you could have the strong impression you had, and still think there's a good possibility that you were buddying.

Agree to disagree?

Or that she's newbie scum who wants townie points from being against a town lynch. kirroha's alignment is independent of mine, as far as I can see.

What is your opinion on Kirroha right now?

Anyone who is even thinking of voting for me because of kirroha's actions is on drugs.

I agree.

It's points against her when you flip scum, not the other way around.

I marked them clearly. Look, I've even gone to the bother of quoting it all for you below. I've either bolded or inserted comments to make it even easier for you to read

Bout time. Now I can respond to it.

First one- I don't see the misrep. You asked my opinion. I answered. You disagreed with my answer (by calling it crap) and called it scummy.
Second one- I never said that you had to think she was scum. (I did say that it made no sense for you to attack my opinion unless you either disagreed with it or thought it had scummy motives, but that was later.) This is actually a strawman on your part.
Third one- I'm not strawmanning. I'm calling it how it is. Your vote is OMGUS. Plain and simple.
Fourth one- It's not a misrep at all. You continue to ask about my town read on Zazie. I continue to answer. And you tell me stuff like "my defense of her is overblown" when all I am doing is responding to you.
Fifth one- I don't see anything wrong with this one. If it doesn't benefit me as scum, and you don't think she is scum, what is wrong with my stance?

So, yeah. Don't you accuse me of being unclear and "too amateur for Kmd's awesomeness", because I have been transparent from the beginning.

Can I just call you 'caught scum' instead?

I've been thinking more and more that Kmd may simply be tunnelled town, and a jerk.

Awww, how sweet. Guys, he said I'm a jerk. <3

My own personal desire to be vindicated has outstripped my objectivity and value to the town. Most other players have been happy to just step back and let us fight it out, which is never a good sign.

I agree that if by some chance you are town, scum are on the sidelines. DDD would probably be the first place I'd look. But Kirroha is your scumbuddy, so that doesn't matter.

Kmd has been evasive and done the three things that I've said over and over again (misrep, strawman, false dichotomies), and I pointed them out. My case is, at the moment, centred around his poor responses to my attacks rather than the initial charges I levelled, and I can't tell the difference in my head any more between Kmd being scum and Kmd and I tunnelling and clashing and blowing things out of proportion

And you haven't blown ANYTHING out of proportion, right?

I don't think I have enough of a case to vote Kmd. If I am lynched, we can't afford another mislynch, and I don't want to develop the Kmd/Percy axis any more than I have, because I just don't have good, objective arguments any more as to why he should die after me, or vice versa. We're getting close to the deadline, and I feel that I need to widen my focus with a solid re-read.

If you are town, you really should have another real suspect soon.

[farside22]

Please refrain from getting upset or taking any comments in the game as personal. See rule #1.

[Kmd4390]

Percy, would you like me to tone down my attacks? I don't mean anything personal by it.

[MiteyMouse]

Wow Kmd...I know that you aren't trying to be personal but, I actually cringed at some of the things that you wrote...

I'm in a position here because I have been reading and rereading Kirroha's posts and it looks so bad. If her life was not tied to mine, I would be jumping all over her. I'm not sure that I'm ready to do that however, as her life is tied to mine in the game...I know how selfish that is but, I'm not ready to go yet.

I am peeking at the tiff between Kmd and Percy. Now, it's hard not to be seen with a fight like that. I was, at first, thinking that it was a planned Scum on Scum fight but, looking at it more closely, I don't think that it is. It's a touch too personal to be fake in my eyes.

I'm going to be pretty busy over the weekend and after that I will have more time to devote to the game.

[Kmd4390]

Mitey, if Kirroha is scum, you can't possibly win AND survive. Realize that before calling yourself selfish.

[Amished]

I actually wasn't too concerned with KMD's statements. Personally I agree that in the odd chance that Percy is town (I'm not sold on that either) he's playing terribly. With the "fight" between KMD and Percy, I'm absolutely convinced that they're not scumbuddies together. They *might* be townies together, but I don't think that's as likely as KMD-town and Percy-scum, though I'm firmly of the opinion that KMD is town.

The thing that gave me pause (finally), is the statement that got him warned. The whole "F u and the horse you rode in on" is more of a righteous statement than a defensive one, and with me not being able to get a read on the DDD/Sajin pairing at all, I could see a Kirroha/one of them pair. Mitey and Korts are both (korts especially) pretty town in my eyes, while KMD is as well.

[Percy]

Sorry, busy again. Will post tomorrow.

[farside22]

Official Vote Count:

Amished(0)
kirroha(1) Dobonair Danny DiPietro
MiteyMouse(0)
Percy(3) ZazieR, Kmd4390, Korts
Debonair Danny DiPietro(0)
Korts(0)
ZazieR(0)
Kmd4390(0)
Not Voting(3) Amished, kirroah, MiteyMouse, Percy

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

[Korts]

I actually wasn't too concerned with KMD's statements. Personally I agree that in the odd chance that Percy is town (I'm not sold on that either) he's playing terribly. With the "fight" between KMD and Percy, I'm absolutely convinced that they're not scumbuddies together. They *might* be townies together, but I don't think that's as likely as KMD-town and Percy-scum, though I'm firmly of the opinion that KMD is town.

Lots of verbal 180 turns in this post. "but", "though", "actually". I always thought that sounded kinda fake.

I have decided against reading any more Percy/Kmd arguments. Also, on review I keep second-guessing myself on Percy. One time I am firm in thinking he's scum, next I get the feeling he's genuinely town. I'm back to liking the kirroha wagon more.

unvote, vote: kirroha

[Amished]

Korts: 2/3rds of your verbal turns are in one line, and something that nobody but scum can be sure about. Either way, after the "but" is the same position that I've held for a long time. I'm not seeing any turns.

The way I used actually means that I'm in contradiction to at least 1 stated position, where I don't think that KMD was that over the top with his comment about Percy.

Sajin and DDD are still AWOL at times.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't like Amished's last couple of posts. I'm not sure how he gets any read on MiteyMouse, let alone a pro-town read. As Korts mentioned I think there's too many exceptions and twists in his statements regarding Percy/KMD. And I find his comment about me being AWOL junk, my last post was yesterday and while there was a time gap between posts it's basically the same gap as last weekend when he said the exact same thing. Maybe it's too much to expect him to pick up on a trend like that, but it's still a little disappointing.

[Amished]

And your last post was 1 line saying you don't understand a point. Huge contribution... I understand it's the weekend but I see a lack of content out of both you and Sajin.

At worst, there's 1 scum per lover pairing, right? If I view Kirroha to be scum (which I do) then Mitey is town, no?

[Percy]

Percy, would you like me to tone down my attacks? I don't mean anything personal by it.

No, I'm fine. I am not new to the internet and the kind of people who use it. However, you're certainly getting worked up, which I read as a towntell. ABR posted this in another game, and I'll let it be my 'last word' on the issue:

This is a fact of life, people. This is not real life, its a game, and people act deliberately extravagant and against the majority's decision all the time. What kind of peer pressure can you possibly have on someone through your computer screen? Balance that against the satisfaction of pulling the trigger on some annoying schmuck that has been on your case the entire game for the most terrible reasons you couldn't even make up. You just want his ignorant head blown away to smithereens and are aching to pull the trigger because you can almost sense the scumminess oozing off his body, and once you kill him you think that you'll be all cleared anyway, and you will be hailed as some kind of hero for having an independent will and being the only one who 'saw his slips' to save the day. But what often happens is at the end of the day you've just killed some innocent hardhead that happened to think you were unbalanced or illogical and you would have served the town better by rolling over and die instead of drawing all the attention away from the scum and wasting precious time and discussion.

I've posted my accusations, he's posted his responses, and if anyone else wants clarification on any particular point, they are welcome to ask for it.

On my re-read, four players pinged my scumdar.

kirroha

- now that my other game has finished, I can talk a little about her meta. I know we all love meta discussion!
In Mini 775 kirroha (as mafia godfather) got herself lynched on Day 1. The read on her was "trying too hard to appear town", and the town was right. Not only that, but when she landed in hot water, she stopped posting (though continued to post in her other games).

Coming into this game with kirroha, I was quite surprised when she said that she was so certain I was town, and made that list of possible scumteams in an effort to appear helpful. Her buddying to me made me extremely suspicious.

Now that she's attracted a fair bit of suspicion, she's stopped posting anything of substance. This correlates extremely well with the way she played the other game when she was scum.

I wanted to give kirroha some room, to appear friendly and not let the meta cloud my judgement. That's why my post 131 doesn't come down hard on her. What I said about my read was true, but there were open questions from other players that she still hasn't answered, and I wanted her to answer those before adding my vocal opposition. Her lack of posting makes me even more suspicious of her now.

MiteyMouse

- Has been sitting on the sidelines most dramatically. I know that sickness played a role, but he's spent most of his time talking about how he sees kirroha as scum (without giving good reasons), but is reluctant to vote for her or he'll die as well. He talks about how badly he wants to trust kirroha, which again is rather odd.

He says that the reason he's not jumping all over her is due to not wanting to die but a townie should want to get their partner lynched if they think they're scum. This has been pointed out multiple times. Declaring the RVS "over" in 152 is very late, and he appears to want to avoid scumhunting.

Amished

- Part of my read on Amished is undoubtedly OMGUS. It really bothered me that he took KMD's side in our argument, so I was open to the possibility that he was helping KMD's bad case roll along in an attempt to protect his lover. However, I have decided to ignore all that and concentrate instead on his read of Mitey. Having read all of Mitey's posts, it seems to me like Mitey is deliberately avoiding pushing against kirroha for no good reason, and yet Amished has a town read. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone could have a town read of Mitey at the moment - null at best. I'd like Amished to tell us exactly how he arrived at this conclusion.

Preview edit: It seems that Amished's town read on Mitey is simply because he thinks kirroha is scum. This is quite baffling, as it's got nothing to do with Mitey's play at all. Would you be happy with a kirroha/Mitey lynch?

DDD

- Mildest scumread. I feel he has been opportunistic at times. Sajin's point appears to be that you shouldn't draw conclusions when you acknowledge the WIFOMery, but DDD has essentially stated a gut read out of the possibilities, and I'm OK with that.


Overall, I get the scummiest reads from kirroha and Mitey. I know they can't both be scum together, but I'm pretty sure at least one of them are. They're partners, so I would advocate their lynch.

Vote: kirroha

.

I get town reads from Korts and Kmd, and a fairly null read from Sajin.

[Kmd4390]

Well, I haven't read the whole post yet (3:20AM and tired/lazy), but it looks like Percy just named possible scum from every pair but his own and voted the biggest suspect other than himself.