Mini 788 - Fantasy Mafia [OVER]

[Starbuck]

Mod: could we have some prods for orangepenguin, xofelf and Shadow?

If you read the thread thus far, you would see that at least xofelf has posted, just a few posts up from yours.

[TonyMontana]

So what was your point on TM? Do you still see him as scummy?

I thought his original vote on Andy was a stretching somewhat. He didn't even bother to learn whether or not Andy was joking or serious, just kind of jumped aboard.

I'm moderately suspicious of him, because he's basically just sat on his early Andy vote and hasn't really done much since.

Alot of eyebrows were raised concerning the vote, including yours, but I felt the lack of pressure. I thought it warranted a serious vote, and a way out of RVS. I didn't remove the vote, cause I didn't necessarily buy his explanation, and he hasn't really convinced since.

[Empking]

Anyone else think Andy and Goat are part of the scum team?

[TonyMontana]

Anyone else think Andy and Goat are part of the scum team?

Bold assessment to make this early.

[Shadow Knight]

No need to prod. I'm here and reading along, just haven't drawn any conclusions yet.

[Kmd4390]

I see no reason why this must be so.

If you are as experienced as I think you are, you know my reasoning here.

I thought his original vote on Andy was a stretching somewhat. He didn't even bother to learn whether or not Andy was joking or serious, just kind of jumped aboard.

I'm moderately suspicious of him, because he's basically just sat on his early Andy vote and hasn't really done much since.

I don't see anything wrong with jumping on small things early like he did.

And this is typical of TM. While I don't like it, he is about as useful as a blank dictionary early in the game. The only time he really does anything is late in the game. Very late. (reference= Open 99 where TM was scum / Large Family Guy where TM was town.) There is a difference between the two, but I'll wait to point it out until I see it.

Nope, can't say I do. I'm really curious why you jumped to this conclusion though. Are we playing some elaborate distancing game?

The fact that you call it elaborate makes me believe this even more. It's very common for scum to distance as early in the game as possible.

Also, you avoided my questions at the top of post 94. I'm pretty interested in your answers to those (basically, I don't see why my actions here are so scummy to you, and I'd like to see your thought process).

I missed something? That's rare. *checks*

Why would I randomly joke vote someone in the middle of real discussion without any reason? Besides, why would I point out now that my vote was serious, long after the fact, when nobody even asked me about it? Am I lying for no discernible reason about something that isn't even that important?

Why would you randomly joke vote someone in the middle of a real discussion without any reason? - I've seen people do it, but generally less experienced players. So fair point. I just thought some reasoning on your vote would have been nice.

Why would you point out that it was serious now? - To have a reason to keep the vote without being told you aren't doing anything? The only time I can remember seeing a vote like this (non-random, very early, unexplained) was when Shea did it as scum TBH.

Are you lying about something unimportant? - Doubtful. You may be trying to appear protown by doing something that may look more helpful than it really is though.

Bold assessment to make this early.

What do you think of both players at this point? Even if it's a weak read, town or scum on each?

[Andycyca]

So what was your point on TM? Do you still see him as scummy?

I thought his original vote on Andy was a stretching somewhat. He didn't even bother to learn whether or not Andy was joking or serious, just kind of jumped aboard.

I'm moderately suspicious of him, because he's basically just sat on his early Andy vote and hasn't really done much since.

Alot of eyebrows were raised concerning the vote, including yours, but I felt the lack of pressure. I thought it warranted a serious vote, and a way out of RVS. I didn't remove the vote, cause I didn't necessarily buy his explanation, and he hasn't really convinced since.

So it was a pressurevote? (if not, please answer my last question)

[Andycyca]

Anyone else think Andy and Goat are part of the scum team?

Got anything to back this up? (besides the discussion around my vote) Because we could try several potential scumpairs just by watching 2-person discussions (yours, for example)

(sorry for the doublepost, forgot to add this)

[Kmd4390]

Your argument looks more like distancing than genuine suspicion.

[ortolan]

Oh I see now. Here's what I meant: I didn't know whether your post was serious or not, but I assumed not, since we were already discussing meatier events. However, You were making a very weird statement (vouching for his towniness). Since we were already discussing non-jokes I read it as stalling other discussions. However, seems like my own vote originated much more discussion topics.

How come you didn't explain this at the time? You just said "please, we've already gone through the silly discussion phase" which implies scum feigning arrogance in order to mask not bothering to do their reading before laying a vote down.

Also, I don't like you claiming credit for starting discussion as a way of defending yourself rather than, for example, trying to better justify your vote on me or attack me further. It's like you attack me, then realise you're not going to get away with it that easily, then withdraw and start defending yourself and try to justify why your vote "prompted discussion" rather than say why you think you voted for scum (me).

Kmd: I'm not really a fan of looking for "distancing" connections between two people, neither of whom have yet flipped; on day one. I'm inclined to think the far more common (and better) play is to either defend one's scumbuddies day one or just ignore them altogether. Arguments over two people "distancing" on day one are too subject to WIFOM and the ones I've seen are almost always wrong.

[ortolan]

^^ that is, assuming the person's lynch is not already a foregone conclusion or at least very likely.

[Sudo_Nym]

Claiming to start discussion works as a defense, I think, early on day one. Something has to get the ball rolling, and more often than not, its a bandwagon. I would assume that you know this; which worries me, because you seem to be dwelling on it more that would appear healthy.

[ortolan]

on precisely that note; what have you done to spark the discussions you're attacking me for supposedly preventing?

you've kept your vote on me since you placed it with similar timing to Andy; later "justifying" it with:

My vote on you has more to do with my belief that your actions made you a good opening bandwagon than any "deliberate scummyness" you have. It usually takes more than the random stage to determine if someone is really being scummy or what.

So you admit your vote one me means little more than a random vote (that's what an "opening bandwagon"implies- if it means something else you needed to give actual reasons for having voted me; which you didn't). Furthermore, your two subsequent posts both consist entirely of irrelevant theory discussion. You're not actually engaging with the game at all (a scum-tell in and of itself), and have failed to move beyond or further justify your "opening bandwagon" vote beyond suggesting I shouldn't attack Andy for claiming to "start discussion" (hardly my only point against him anyhow). Glad to see the FoS wasn't misplaced.

I would like to know whom you suspect Sudo_Nym.

[Sudo_Nym]

True. I'm not voting you for any super justified reason; you were largely a target of opportunity to get the game rolling.

My point is not to stop you from discussing, I only wonder why you're so obsessed about an opening bandwagon, which is why I've kept my vote on you.

While we're on the subject, I only intended to point out that your idea about "starting discussion" isn't especially relevant at the specific time you brought it up; your other point remain valid, and that one point would be valid, if it were deeper into the game.

As for talking about game theory, that's just how I play. I love to bring it up, because different people respond different- and the same person will respond differently depending on their role. Admittedly, its more of a long term strategy than a short term scumhunt, but its how I've always done it, in RL and online, and I don't imagine that's going to change.

[TonyMontana]

I don't see anything wrong with jumping on small things early like he did.

And this is typical of TM. While I don't like it, he is about as useful as a blank dictionary early in the game. The only time he really does anything is late in the game. Very late. (reference= Open 99 where TM was scum / Large Family Guy where TM was town.) There is a difference between the two, but I'll wait to point it out until I see it.

*is intrigued to hear the difference, in spite of insult*

What do you think of both players at this point? Even if it's a weak read, town or scum on each?

I don't read good. Not this early. But I'm pleased with having my vote where it is. As for goat, I'm neutral at this point.

[Empking]

SN: Do you have any games to support your meta claim?

[SensFan]

Prodding orangepenguin .

[Goatrevolt]

I see no reason why this must be so.

If you are as experienced as I think you are, you know my reasoning here.

I have no idea how experienced you think I am. Feel free to check my wiki if you wish to read up on me. However, I do understand your reasoning here, I just think you're entirely wrong. Fair enough?

Nope, can't say I do. I'm really curious why you jumped to this conclusion though. Are we playing some elaborate distancing game?

The fact that you call it elaborate makes me believe this even more. It's very common for scum to distance as early in the game as possible.

Really? And why would my word choice "elaborate" make you feel you are correct. Let's run through:

I placed the 3rd vote on Andy in the random phase.
He responded strongly to my 3rd vote with an apparently sarcastic OMGUS.
I attacked him immediately afterward to explain himself because his vote didn't look like a joke.
He mentioned that it was just sarcasm.
He votes Ortolan based on poor reasoning.
I jump on his wagon, as a critical 4th vote, and argue in favor of him being scum with Sudo_Nym and Empking.

And we're apparently just distancing. Because that's likely......

Here's a question: Why have you kept your random vote on Andy this entire time, even though you have not bothered to question or pressure him a single time since early page 2 when you merely asked him the seriousness of his vote? I see you questioning Ortolan, myself, Starbuck, but not Andy, who your vote is conveniently on.

If anyone looks like a buddy, it's you, whose vote has remained on him, but your attention and pressure has been anywhere but.

Also, you avoided my questions at the top of post 94. I'm pretty interested in your answers to those (basically, I don't see why my actions here are so scummy to you, and I'd like to see your thought process).

I missed something? That's rare. *checks*

You "missed" it? *cough* Bullshit. You responded to the rest of the post. Missed it seems unlikely.

Why would you point out that it was serious now? - To have a reason to keep the vote without being told you aren't doing anything? The only time I can remember seeing a vote like this (non-random, very early, unexplained) was when Shea did it as scum TBH.

You've seen it one time before, and it was scum, so that somehow makes me more likely to be scum? Bad argument. A sample size of 1 is pretty weak for making justifications like that.

"

To have a reason to keep the vote without being told you aren't doing anything

" - 1. I haven't kept the vote. 2. Good luck pushing the argument that I haven't done anything, because it's false.

Are you lying about something unimportant? - Doubtful. You may be trying to appear protown by doing something that may look more helpful than it really is though.

So if you don't think I'm lying, then why did you attack me under the premise that my vote looked like a joke, not a serious vote?

[TonyMontana]

So it was a pressurevote? (if not, please answer my last question)

What's a "pressurevote"?

[Sudo_Nym]

SN: Do you have any games to support your meta claim?

Practically any game I'm in. The only one I can find right off is ongoing, though.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd: I'm not really a fan of looking for "distancing" connections between two people, neither of whom have yet flipped; on day one. I'm inclined to think the far more common (and better) play is to either defend one's scumbuddies day one or just ignore them altogether. Arguments over two people "distancing" on day one are too subject to WIFOM and the ones I've seen are almost always wrong.

This depends on the player. Some distance. Some defend. Some ignore. It's a judgement call and my judgement says distancing here.

I have no idea how experienced you think I am. Feel free to check my wiki if you wish to read up on me. However, I do understand your reasoning here, I just think you're entirely wrong. Fair enough?

I guess. I disagree, but still.

Really? And why would my word choice "elaborate" make you feel you are correct. Let's run through:

I placed the 3rd vote on Andy in the random phase.
He responded strongly to my 3rd vote with an apparently sarcastic OMGUS.
I attacked him immediately afterward to explain himself because his vote didn't look like a joke.
He mentioned that it was just sarcasm.
He votes Ortolan based on poor reasoning.
I jump on his wagon, as a critical 4th vote, and argue in favor of him being scum with Sudo_Nym and Empking.

And we're apparently just distancing. Because that's likely......

It's Page 5. You can easily back off of each other later in the day and get away with it. That's why it is the perfect time to attack each other like that.

Here's a question: Why have you kept your random vote on Andy this entire time, even though you have not bothered to question or pressure him a single time since early page 2 when you merely asked him the seriousness of his vote? I see you questioning Ortolan, myself, Starbuck, but not Andy, who your vote is conveniently on.

Because I think Andy is scum. And I think you and Starbuck are his buddies. I don't think Ort is scum.

You've seen it one time before, and it was scum, so that somehow makes me more likely to be scum? Bad argument. A sample size of 1 is pretty weak for making justifications like that.

My point was that I haven't seen it from town and it sounds very similar to the one time I did see Shea's play in Medieval. I know it's a weak point though. OGML, for example, makes seemingly baseless votes all the time lately.

So if you don't think I'm lying, then why did you attack me under the premise that my vote looked like a joke, not a serious vote?

My assumption when reading that post was that it was a joke. I think you should have done more with it if it wasn't.

[orangepenguin]

If only you knew how mean she really is... You'd know that I'm not allowed to wear hoop earrings, right? Yeah! Two years ago she told me hoops earrings were *her* thing and I wasn't allowed to wear them anymore. And then for Hannakuh my parents got this pair of really expensive white gold hoops and I had to pretend like I didn't even like them and... it was so sad. And you know she cheats on Tony? Yes, every Thursday he thinks she's doing SAT prep but really she's hooking up with Sudo_Nym in the projection room above the auditorium! I never told anybody that because I am *such* a good friend!

Vote: Starbuck

[Starbuck]

All I have to say is that is the weirdest vote from someone who doesn't know me that I have ever seen.

[Mixologist]

Will be doing a proper post after making dinner and putting my daughter to sleep. Roughly three or so hours.

[Kmd4390]

OP, can you tell me why you just quoted Mean Girls?