Mini 778 - Inventor Mafia (OVER)

[Mastin]

I don't think you have successfully defended the majority of your contradictions that have been pointed out.

And I disagree.

Do any of my contradictions still stand?
I don't think so. I've explained them all (several times, mind you), I've offered proof...what more do you need?

This in itself is a contradiction.

No.
No, it does not.

By saying I'm giving proof, (which I would've backed up, if I had the time. Keep in mind that post was made when I was supposed to have left for a real-life task five minutes prior--I was late due to my devotion to this game) it is not.

You take the accusation that several of your defenses consist of "nuh-uh" and "no you" and you defend it with a "nuh-uh."

As I explained above, this is not the case.

Also,

Let's see.

How many people here can I, with just a quick read, find saying,

"I disagree,"
"I agree,"
"You're wrong,"
"You're correct,"
"XXX is correct,"
"YYY is wrong,"
You get the idea.

Hmm...shall we? Maybe a bit later. But you get the idea--

This can be applied to nearly every player.
I imagine not just this game.
But site-wide.
"I agree/disagree" is VERY common.
So even IF I were doing "I disagree/agree", it would mean nothing.

All that "I'm refuting them with ease" type posts are major scum tells.

Oh, really?

Do explain how.
I HAVE "refuted them with ease". I've answered every accusation with a solid defense, and pointed out all the flaws in my attacker's arguments.

---
As you seem so keen to bandwagon, let's see if you're willing to accept my bet:

HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO RISK ON ME BEING SCUM?!?

ANY who don't answer yet vote me anyway are EXTREMELY suspicious, for knowing the truth--that I AM innocent, that they'll be wrong.

Vote Count:

AceMarksman (2) - Zazier, Zwetschenwasser
Darox (0) -
Empking (1) - LeakingGoofball
Farside22 (0) -
LeakingGoofball (1) - Farside22
Lobstermania (1) - Mastin
LunaLouise (0) -
Mastin (6) - Tarhalindur, Lobstermania, AceMarksman, Darox, Semioldguy, Empking
Semioldguy (0) -
Tarhalindur (0) -
Zazier (0) -
Zwetschenwasser (0) -

LunaLouise is V/LA 15th-25th.
Farside22 is V/LA 22nd-25th
RBT is V/LA 20th-27th

[lobstermania]

Mastin. Perhaps the scum's pms weren't as easy to read, but it sounds like you should PM the mod and ask for clarification on your role. Mine was pretty blatant and clear.
Also, I accept your amended bet. I can give you a list of things I would hate to see as my avatar, but since I'm town it would be pointless. However, I have already picked out a great one for you
And again, just curious when/if you are going to supply any analysis to your player summary posts. I'm still unclear as to why you do it.

[semioldguy]

@Mastin
If you think extending the bet makes you look desperate, then why were you so desperate to be extending that bet when you only had two votes on you? Is L-5 something to be worried about?

Just because you give an explanation as to why you are doing something, it doesn't mean that it is not a contradiction. It's still a contradiction and explanations don't always make everything all better.

You can point back to your meta and say that you did something as town, but how do we know that you don't do it as scum? If you do all sorts of different things as town it would be easy to find one of them where behavior overlaps. Also using meta as a defense is bad because it means you are aware that you are doing something that you did as town meaning you'd be aware of that fact if you were scum.

If you've done the exact same thing many times as town, whats to stop you from doing it as scum as well? You claim that different games have different circumstances, so how can you use these different circumstances as defenses for each other and only as defenses for each other? You make it into a one-way street that only you have access to and that is the majority of your defense. If metagaming you doesn't work in finding you scum, explain how it would work for finding you town.

You are claiming that you aren't strawmanning, even when it is pointed out to you that you are. You aren't giving an explanation as to why it isn't strawmanning, you're just saying that it isn't, which is ignoring the original argument further.

How is a refusal to bet scummy? Townies don't KNOW the alignment of anyone other than themselves, so for them this bet can never be a sure thing. It doesn't say as much about their alignment as it says what kind of gambler they are.

If replacing out is a scum tell to you, well... you replaced in for someone else. You can use that as a scum tell on yourself.

If you know that you aren't scum and are going to treat yourself as vanilla otherwise, then why do you care so much what is in your box? That doesn't sound like you're treating yourself as vanilla.

Please provide some examples where you think previous games would be the only defense, when previous games aren't mentioned in the accusation.

Your defenses aren't worth refuting, because the defense you make is either not relevant to absolving yourself from the accusation made toward you, or is simply a "nuh-uh" or "no you" response without any explanation as to why the case against you is wrong. You only saying that you've explained or refuted something is not an explanation or refute on its own.

[AceMarksman]

452 gets a huge QFT from me. Mastin is playing very scummily. Bets have no place in mafia, and I'm sticking to that. Furthermore, mastin, you have not been refuting the arguments with ease. If you were, people would not keep coming back with counter-arguments.

[AceMarksman]

I DID however say that those refusing to take it were either unsure of their cases, or were scum.

THIS I find is true, due to them KNOWING that I am innocent, and thereby KNOWING that they'd be wrong.

No. No no no. No no. Nonono. The town has no way of knowing for certainty that a player is scum or town, therefore they are less likely to take a bet (that you seem sure about. Hmm...). Coupled with the fact that many players have echoed the idea that bets have no place in mafia makes not taking a bet somewhere between a null and a town tell. Offering up a bet is a scumtell, however.

[lobstermania]

No. No no no. No no. Nonono. The town has no way of knowing for certainty that a player is scum or town, therefore they are less likely to take a bet (that you seem sure about. Hmm...). Coupled with the fact that many players have echoed the idea that bets have no place in mafia makes not taking a bet somewhere between a null and a town tell. Offering up a bet is a scumtell, however.

However, being town you have nothing to lose by taking the bet. Except you can't help pick Mastin's new avatar when he flips scum.

[AceMarksman]

Except you can't help pick Mastin's new avatar when he flips scum.

awwwwwwwwww........................ Puhleeeeeeze?

[Riceballtail]

Prod check in three hours. POST MOAR!

[zwetschenwasser]

I'm getting town vibes from Mastin. He seems to have just given up of not being lynched in this game, which is what frustrated town do much more often that desperate scum. Darox's contradiction is also not as major as he makes it out to be.

[Tarhalindur]

Anti-prod.

I should be able to make a full post later tonight.

[Riceballtail]

Prodding LeakingGoofball, LunaLouise is V/LA and will not be prodded for absence.

Also, I will be V/LA myself between the 20th and 27th. Should a lynch be reached, the game will be in twilight until I am able to lock the thread and reveal an alignment. I apologize for having to be gone, but I doubt it will significantly hinder the game.

[farside22]

Prodding LeakingGoofball, LunaLouise is V/LA and will not be prodded for absence.

Also, I will be V/LA myself between the 20th and 27th. Should a lynch be reached, the game will be in twilight until I am able to lock the thread and reveal an alignment. I apologize for having to be gone, but I doubt it will significantly hinder the game.

What no back up mod to help?

anyways I am down to just 2 mafia games. As soon as I finish a few things here at work I will have my thoughts written down.

[AceMarksman]

I really would like tar to weigh in. That would be nice.

[zwetschenwasser]

I really would like tar to weigh in. That would be nice.

Great content, ace.

[lobstermania]

LeakingGoofball, please return.

I personally feel that a lynch on zwet or emp is far better for the first day. So, to advocate this policy I Unvote: semioldguy then I Vote: Empking

You've had a policy vote on Empking for almost a month. After recent discussion (which you have presumably read), do you feel a policy vote is still an effective use of Day One? What are your opinions on Mastin and AceMarksman?

[semioldguy]

I hate it when players say they are going to do something and don't follow through. Yes, I know real life can get in the way. But don't come in and say you are going to do things; come in and just do them. With people V/LA it's frustrating to also have people who are here but aren't bothering to post or add content/contribute when they say they are going to be posting. It's not because you don't have time, it's because you are choosing not to make the time.

Anti-prod.

I should be able to make a full post later tonight.

That was two days ago.

anyways I am down to just 2 mafia games. As soon as I finish a few things here at work I will have my thoughts written down.

Have you got any of your thoughts down yet?

[Empking]

Tar; What's happened to you?

[lobstermania]

Ace is obvscum.

Please elaborate in at least five complete sentences.[/img]

[semioldguy]

I know Mastin is around because he has been quite active in other games the past few days despite not being in this one for three days now. It makes me think he is avoiding this game which is not very protown and not really showing of any concern to help the town either.

In the past three days we have had less than 20 posts and have only seen 7 of the 12 players, with several of those not actually posting any content. Only one of the five missing players, LunaLouise, is V/LA. LeakingGoofball, Darox and Zazier have been absent while Mastin seems to have abandoned the town.

Darox - Hasn't been on site.
LeakingGoofball - Hasn't been on site.
Zazier - Been active in other games on site but not here.

[Darox]

I've seen nothing that leaps out at me to comment on, except that zwetschenwasser should start playing the game and that everyone should post less snide comments on others attendance and more about the game.

Mastin is still my preferred lynch.

I'll probably write more when I go and properly read everything.

[Tarhalindur]

Tar; What's happened to you?

Somewhat lowered access, plus trying to keep up in a second, ongoing game that's more active than this one (and failing...), plus having to double-check my Mastin read after certain recent events.

Quick thoughts:

- While, after review, Mastin is correct that Newb 688 isn't necessarily representative of him, he DOES have an ongoing game where he has been mod-revealed by death reveal as Mafia. I'm not sure what Riceballtail's policy is towards information from death reveals in ongoing games (some mods allow the use of such information, most don't)
- I'm loathe to bet on Mastin's alignment, mostly because I hate bets and tend to be EXTREMELY conservative when anything tangible is on the line, partly because I have a little nagging voice at the back of my head saying that Mastin *could* be town given his last two pages of play.
- Certain parts of Mastin's defense, at least, are shaky: I wouldn't have called IIoA on him in Bleach Mafia, as he was scumhunting in addition to setup speculation et. al. there (the tell is called Information INSTEAD of Analysis for a reason). In addition, given my own thoughts on scumtells, his claim that meta can't be used to find anything scummy that he is doing is exceedingly dangerous (as far as I'm concerned, he's effectively claiming that he is NEVER scummy and that no case can be built on him ever, because scumtells boil down to deviations from town meta). I need to make a full assessment of his defense, but lack the time right now.
- Mastin's play in the last two pages or so is considerably more pro-town than his play beforehand, with caveats which I will not elaborate on as they relate to another ongoing game. He's building cases, at least. I'll check back on his past games again and see if they are of comparable detail to his past games (and also whether his suspects in finished games where he's town tend to be players that are attacking him).
- Regardless, I am unvoting Mastin for now, entirely for policy reasons. I am severely uncomfortable with L-1 in a game with 10 or more players (and even with less, except that in smaller games forcing claims at L-2 has its own problems).

Unvote

Mastin, you're at L-2. It's time for you to claim everything you do know about your role - boxes, instructions, all of it.

[Mastin]

Post coming after I PM Rice. (I had meant to do this several times. Since the attacks against me started, I had meant to PM Rice with what I intended to claim, to see if it'd be too much detail. I kept on forgetting. Got too dragged into the game. Won't happen this time.)

[Mastin]

Sent. As soon as the mod logs on, I should know if I put too much detail into it. (Bad habit. It took me one or two tries before OhGodMyLife let me post my Kiego Asano role claim. What can I say? I like elaborate roleclaims and LOVE details in them. Especially when they're all true. )

[Riceballtail]

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where allowed to do so by your role.

While this is up to interpretation, I believe that it would be interpreted best as "If you know something from a game that is not public knowledge (AKA mod confirmed role information/a post by somebody in an open thread), then it should not be communicated elsewise."

In lieu of this, my decision is that

you may make a reference to a specific post that has been made by a link outside of this thread for use in this game.

This statement shall be added into the rules section on page 1.

[Mastin]

Claim time:

I've got a nice big brown box. I really wanted to breadcrumb this (I love breadcrumbing. Refer to 735 and 742, and 760, etc.), but couldn't think of anything, due to not knowing what the box does?
What was I going to say, that I hate walking to my house due to the mud outside clinging to my brown shoes?
Too subtle, and I couldn't think of any other way other than a complaint in-thread about real-life to do it, which would qualify as an appeal to emotion, rather than the intended breadcrumb.
I was fidgeting with other ideas (like thinking about the "brown note" episode of Mythbusters, for example, but again, no way to fit it in. It'd just be off-topic, and slightly inappropriate for my standards, or referencing a "dark Orange Box [the package with Portal, Team Fortress Two, and Half-life 2 {I believe} in it from Valve], but decided that would be misinterpreted as an orange box [my least favorite, apparently], so dropped that one), but nothing seemed to stick.

Obviously, I am town.
My top-three preferences are brown (obviously), white, and black in that order. Yay for being neutral color-wise! Razz

I can open one box per night (who can't?), and if I assemble it (I imagine that the brown has a guaranteed chance of being assembled, with the instructions taped to it and all that), am told what my contraption does and if I can target a player. (Who'd I think I'd target, of course.)
I imagine that the other ones have a chance of failing, like
White-->75% success,
Black-->50% success, or something like that.
But it's only speculation.

I imagine that my least-favorite small box, the little orange one, (Ironic, considering how Orange is my second-favorite color) would have a guaranteed 100% failure rate.