The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Juls]

Don't have time to post today. Tomorrow for sure. Just so people doesn't worry about inactivity and such.

Still not caught up but I think this is a decent place to put my vote for now.

Vote Kaiveran

and an

FoS: dramonic

. I wasn't crazy about Firestarter on D1 and about half way through D2 I haven't seen anything good out of him. This may change after I finish my read though.

[Gorrad]

Absolutely! UROE in Random Mafia 3, I led an attack on him, lynching D1 based on this tell. It also caught my scumpartner, Seraphim in Bleach Mafia when I brought it up there (though I brought it up on a townie, to be fair).

The basic premise behind it is that it gains nothing for town by being said, and has a chance of outting power roles.

Are you still talking about a player that reacts to the outcome of a lynch or night (ie: cheering at a dead scum or feeling remorse over a dead town)? Was Random Mafia 3 a night start, because otherwise how would someone commit that tell?

I am, it was.

[Jahudo]

@ Yos No I believe lynching me today would not best help the town.

Has something changed? I thought you had a trigger that helped the town.

[NabakovNabakov]

So...

Basic summary of D1: A tale told by a Village Idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nearly no scumhunting.

Basic summary of D2: Montagues Vs. Capulets, complete with all the appropriate suicides and vengence killings.

(Awww yeah, we're gettin our Bard on tonight)

To put things another way, Xtoxm's early-day shenanigans have jammed this game in an awkward position that it has yet to fully recover from. D1, the focus was almost exclusively on Xtoxm's claim (which ultimately proved just true enough that his spiritual successor is still around, but just false enough that he's useless) and Firestarter's hard-headed defense of his boneheaded proposal for the mayoral election (which, btw, ended up being thrown haphhazzardly to a player who never really wanted to win it all that badly). The conversation rarely branched out into actual discussions of scuminess, and several players (knox, ZONEACE, ztife, mufasa, my predecessor) were allowed to lurk or post minimal content.

Fortunately, D2 was a little better on the lurker front. Of the three male lurkers, two (ZONEACE, mufasa) were pressured significantly, though only mufasa responded. However, the conversation was once again dominated by twoish subjects: the dingoPepper debate and mufasa's incompetence/disorientation. As opposed to the discussions on D1, these were at least of the type which involve high-stakes opinions on the scuminess of particular players (rather than the sterile theory of election methods and policy lynches), so that is where I intend to do most of my mining (soon to come, too tired now)

My basic theory:
The dingoPepper debate, being townie-on-townie, was a gift to the scum. Even if there are two scum factions or the scum think that there are, the fact is that a certain portion of the people posting on D2

knew

that neither dingo nor Pepper shared their allignment, so this must have had them cackling with glee:

Here's something for you dingo, my vote is staying on you until you are either lynched, or night killed. Criticize that jackass.

Therefore, we are most likely to find scum among those who worked to keep the dingoPepper debate from falling in intensity, pushing it towards the conclusion Pepper promised he would provide.

But for now, I'm tired, and the How and the Who will have to come later.

A few current matters:

-Are all the ladies here an accounted for? I would not be at all surprised if Knox and Ztife are gone for good. If they aren't, they need to make significant posts soon.
-For those ladies who aren't up to speed, Mufasa made the claim yesterday (which he now appears to be retracting *sigh*) that your woodland gathering had some bearing on an event triggered by his lynch. Did you get

any

flavor from the mod regarding your absence?
-Don't forget about Millar. If he's stopped posting (which is a possibility) we should have him be replaced. The VI role isn't useless now that it's been tree-stumped, it's useless because it's occupied by a VI.

[Battle Mage]

I don't think Yos is acting scummy so I see no point in lynching him. People have different ideas about who to kill when they are scum.

I feel this is a rather off-hand response. Yos is an excellent player, and i dont expect him to commit glaring scumtells when he is mafia. Maybe this comes under "too townie to be town"? *shrug*

Also, another thing im thinking is, bussing is unlikely to be prevalent in this game. If Yos was scum, what would his team mates do? I dont see them all hopping on the wagon, given that their team would then either lose the mayorship, or have another player implicated.

BM

[MikeSC6]

What particular scumtells are you talking about? Do YOU think they are good indicators of scum behavior?

What do you mean, "Dr. Pepper referred to himself in the third person"?

The "congratulating the town" one, really. I ask because, in this game yesterday, Zwet I think it was brought up that referring to yourself in the third person is a scumtell, and voted Dr Pepper for it. So far that's 0 out of 1 for scumtell effectiveness. I can see how it might be a scummy move if it's in conjunction with scummy behaviour, but on it's own, I don't think so. It seems like it's just too easy to go "this is a textbook scumtell", rather than build an argument. I don't think we should lynch solely on scumtells, because in the event of a misslynch it doesn't give us any more information about the players who voted, as they were doing it by the textbook- no more, no less.

Vote: Mufasa

The only reason we didn't lynch him yesterday was that he said it would be better for town if he was today's lynch. It looks like he was just buying time- I'm asking for a full claim. We've had nothing but scummy behaviour out of Mufasa.

[Mufasa]

I believe that my action won't do the maximium amount of help if I am to be killed today but we'll see.

[Jahudo]

I feel this is a rather off-hand response. Yos is an excellent player, and i dont expect him to commit glaring scumtells when he is mafia. Maybe this comes under "too townie to be town"? *shrug*

No, I just feel that Yos is townish based on his activity day 2. I think he was one of the few people to critically analyze what was going on between dingo and pepper, where scum wouldn't have really cared which one died (we know that now).

Also, another thing im thinking is, bussing is unlikely to be prevalent in this game. If Yos was scum, what would his team mates do? I dont see them all hopping on the wagon, given that their team would then either lose the mayorship, or have another player implicated.

Well, if a scum mayor is killed I would assume someone on his wagon is much more likely to be the next mayor, as opposed to someone not on his wagon.

I think it's too early to tell if we have one main scum faction or two, and how many third party scum we have. These variables might affect how much scum think they can get by with bussing. If they have a big enough group but with weak powers, they are probably more likely to bus.

[Battle Mage]

I feel this is a rather off-hand response. Yos is an excellent player, and i dont expect him to commit glaring scumtells when he is mafia. Maybe this comes under "too townie to be town"? *shrug*

No, I just feel that Yos is townish based on his activity day 2. I think he was one of the few people to critically analyze what was going on between dingo and pepper, where scum wouldn't have really cared which one died (we know that now).

Also, another thing im thinking is, bussing is unlikely to be prevalent in this game. If Yos was scum, what would his team mates do? I dont see them all hopping on the wagon, given that their team would then either lose the mayorship, or have another player implicated.

Well, if a scum mayor is killed I would assume someone on his wagon is much more likely to be the next mayor, as opposed to someone not on his wagon.

I think it's too early to tell if we have one main scum faction or two, and how many third party scum we have. These variables might affect how much scum think they can get by with bussing. If they have a big enough group but with weak powers, they are probably more likely to bus.

No, i still cant see a solo scumgroup bussing. And i dont understand your first point about the scum mayor-please explain?

BM

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I believe that my action won't do the maximium amount of help if I am to be killed today but we'll see.

What power?

[Yosarian2]

In short, my hypothesis is that experienced players would have killed Yos2 already, based on his reputation. Those who arent aware of his reputation, are bound to kill a townie with a double vote in order to give themselves the chance of getting it themselves.

As to your first sentance; take a look at, say, my last 5 or 6 games as town. How many of them was I nightkilled by the scum on night 1 or night 2? I think the answer is 1; the only game that's at all recent where I was town and was nightkilled by the scum night 1 or night 2 was Mafia Lolwat, and that was just because I was attacking both members of the mafia that day.

Ok, it's time for me come clean. I'm afraid...i'm not the superfan you might have thought i was.
If you could link me to those games, i'll gladly check them out.

Sure, let me check. (uses search function).

As far as I remember, this, mafiaLolwat is the only recent game where I, as town, was scumkilled early on.

viewtopic.php?t=10205&highlight=

In that game, the reason i was killed by the scum night 2 was because on day 2 I managed to call and attack out both members of the scum team at the same time (although I mistakenly thought one was the cult leader, which didn't help since I was trying to lynch him anyway. )

The two games I was in as town before that were mini 732 viewtopic.php?t=10268&start=0 and mini 728 viewtopic.php?t=10198&start=0. In both of those games, I was pro-town, and still survived the entire game, winning while still alive in endgame both times. (Granted, in mini 732, half the reason I survived was badly absuing the smalltown game mechanics. )

Before that, in mini 720, I was lynched, not nightkilled. viewtopic.php?t=10086&highlight=yosarian2

Before that, was medieval mafia, where I was not killed by scum; I was actually vigged by a pro-town mason group. (Stupid vigs. :stillbitter:)

So, yeah. Out of my last 5 games when I was pro-town, I was only nightkilled once. You can look at games when I was scum and there were multiple scumgroups as well; I didn't really often get targeted by the other scumgroup in those game very often either.

As far as I remember, to go back to the last time before lolwat when I was killed by scum early on, you have to go all the way back to 2008 an US Election mafia; and the only reason I was killed in THAT game was because I delibratly hinted at a pro-town power role in order to draw a scum kill, becuase I had the most useless pro-town role ever and so wanted the scum to kill me rather then someone useful. (I couldn't even vote for a lynch, I could only vote no-lynch. )

So, yeah. I really don't think I'm much more likely to draw a nightkill then most people when I'm pro-town. I get hit with the "Yos is still alive, so he must be scum!" argument ALL the bloody TIME, but it really is not at all true; I make all the way to endgame pretty often as town, in fact.

maybe you're right. But given the player list, and the mechanic of the game, i can see that most mafia combinations here would have killed you already. Especially as you aren't really coming across as scummy. You aren't what id consider 'lynchable' based on your actual play. Likewise, you havent even been wagonning like crazy, which would be a possible incentive for mafia to keep you alive.

Well, you know, if that is all true, mafia often avoid "the most obvious target" because that person is often doc protected. Docs are pretty common in warewolf games, too. (Well, they're usually called herbalists or healers here, but same thing.)

I mean, I didn't even vote for MYSELF, I really didn't even especally want to be mayor this game, it just kind of happened. If the scum had wanted to gently nudge the town into electing one of their own mayor on day 1, they could have. They didn't, probably because they don't want to be anywhere near as high profile as that.

It's ok, i can see why you wouldnt wanna be mayor. The longevity of such a post in early game is not looking great. Tbh, i think you're doing a pretty good job. But, let's face it, if you were town, you'd be happy to be mayor for one simple reason-it means that:

A. Town has control of the double vote.
B. You get to choose a successor in the event of your death, so you can use your intuition to keep the mayorship out of the hands of scum.

(nods) Right. And I was never opposed to the idea of being mayor, for that very reason, as I made clear day 1. Still; I decided not to really go for it this game, and was actually pushing pretty hard for Fonz (who looked pretty obv town to me) to get the mayorship instead.

I think half-decent scum are far less likely to WANT to be mayor, because survival to endgame is virtually impossible, and it thrusts them into the limelight early on. More importantly, it means they have to choose a successor, and they have to either concede the mayorship to a townie, or implicate another scumbuddy, starting the cycle again.

BM

Heh. My usual habit is to actually go after stuff like mayorships hard no matter what my alignment. I just kind of figured that after what I did in 24 mafia, doing so this game would make people freak out (see Fonz's reaction to even the idea I might become mayor day 1 of this game for an example of this, heh), so I was planning on just trying to make sure someone else who looked pro-town to me got it. I was actually kind of bemused to see that I ended up with it anyway, lol.

[zwetschenwasser]

WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.

[Jahudo]

What would happen if everybody swore today?

And i dont understand your first point about the scum mayor-please explain?

If Yos were to be lynched and flip scum, I think we would look for his scumbuddies among the people that didn't lynch him. We would also need to elect a new mayor before we lynched someone, so someone that did lynch him would get townie points.

[zwetschenwasser]

Probably a no lynch.

[NabakovNabakov]

WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.

Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?

Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.

[Gorrad]

WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.

Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?

Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.

I call BS. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.

[NabakovNabakov]

WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.

Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?

Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.

I call BS. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.

Maybe you're right. Calling Zwet out at this point is premature; he has niether lurked nor shirked, but I think that this is definitely a potential problem.

In other words, the last thing I want to hear today is "I can't [X] because I lost my vote" (when X =/= hammer).

[DizzyIzzyB13]

WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.

Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?

Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.

I call

BS

. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.

Would this cost Gorrad his vote?

[zwetschenwasser]

*facepalm*

[MikeSC6]

By the rules, it doesn't look like it would- those letters could mean anything. It's a massive stretch- why would you bring it to the mods attention?

Oh-

@Haschel: If people lose their votes, will the lynch threshhold lessen?

The way it's worded, "there are 16 votes [/i]in play[/i], so it takes 9 to lynch" seems to indicate that it does- but it's nice to be sure.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Clarity. It's blatantly obvious what he meant by that and acting otherwise is just dumb. But since he didn't actually type it out, I'm wondering to what extent trhe mod would allow such things to slide. Like, if that's allowed, I don;'t see why swearing with letters starred out would contravene the rules - of ifm, say, an a was substituted with an @ sign.

[zwetschenwasser]

VC please.

[Battle Mage]

What would happen if everybody swore today?

And i dont understand your first point about the scum mayor-please explain?

If Yos were to be lynched and flip scum, I think we would look for his scumbuddies among the people that didn't lynch him. We would also need to elect a new mayor before we lynched someone, so someone that did lynch him would get townie points.

Ah i see what you mean now. You've misread the rules though, methinks. We dont elect the new mayor- the old mayor chooses the new mayor. So in this scenario, Dead-Yos-Scum would have to choose a successor.

BM

[Battle Mage]

WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.

Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?

Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.

I call BS. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.

Maybe you're right. Calling Zwet out at this point is premature; he has niether lurked nor shirked, but I think that this is definitely a potential problem.

In other words, the last thing I want to hear today is "I can't [X] because I lost my vote" (when X =/= hammer).

I agree with Gorrad. I dont think Zwet lost his vote deliberately, nor do i think scum would bother doing so, in order to cast themselves out of the limelight. A guy with no vote, will hopefully be just as conspicuous as a guy with 2. Unless we reach a stage where the majority lose their votes. Lol

Furthermore, i can see why Zwet-town would consider me scummy for drawing attention to his rule-breach. It isn't a scumtell, but if i lost my vote in that manner, i expect i'd feel paranoid/vindictive.

BM

[Battle Mage]

In short, my hypothesis is that experienced players would have killed Yos2 already, based on his reputation. Those who arent aware of his reputation, are bound to kill a townie with a double vote in order to give themselves the chance of getting it themselves.

As to your first sentance; take a look at, say, my last 5 or 6 games as town. How many of them was I nightkilled by the scum on night 1 or night 2? I think the answer is 1; the only game that's at all recent where I was town and was nightkilled by the scum night 1 or night 2 was Mafia Lolwat, and that was just because I was attacking both members of the mafia that day.

Ok, it's time for me come clean. I'm afraid...i'm not the superfan you might have thought i was.
If you could link me to those games, i'll gladly check them out.

Sure, let me check. (uses search function).

As far as I remember, this, mafiaLolwat is the only recent game where I, as town, was scumkilled early on.

viewtopic.php?t=10205&highlight=

In that game, the reason i was killed by the scum night 2 was because on day 2 I managed to call and attack out both members of the scum team at the same time (although I mistakenly thought one was the cult leader, which didn't help since I was trying to lynch him anyway. )

The two games I was in as town before that were mini 732 viewtopic.php?t=10268&start=0 and mini 728 viewtopic.php?t=10198&start=0. In both of those games, I was pro-town, and still survived the entire game, winning while still alive in endgame both times. (Granted, in mini 732, half the reason I survived was badly absuing the smalltown game mechanics. )

Interesting. 728 highlights my point quite nicely i feel. True, you were not killed in the game, but the game was FULL of veterans. It's no great insult not to be killed when almost the entire playerlist are IC's, and many pretty much household names.

With 732, this isnt so much the case, although i'd say the playerlist there has a greater ratio of 'infamous' players than this game. I'd be interested to hear thoughts from

Gorrad

, as he was scum in that game, and might be able to clarify why Yos was not killed.

Before that, in mini 720, I was lynched, not nightkilled. viewtopic.php?t=10086&highlight=yosarian2

will look at this in a sec, thanks.

As far as I remember, to go back to the last time before lolwat when I was killed by scum early on, you have to go all the way back to 2008 an US Election mafia; and the only reason I was killed in THAT game was because I delibratly hinted at a pro-town power role in order to draw a scum kill, becuase I had the most useless pro-town role ever and so wanted the scum to kill me rather then someone useful. (I couldn't even vote for a lynch, I could only vote no-lynch. )

ACTUALLY, as the guy who killed you, i'm afraid i'll have to correct you here. The reason we killed you in that game was (admittedly my buddy's choice) because you are an infamously good player, and KoC was terrified of you as a scumhunter. Which, to be quite frank, is one of the main reasons behind my stance on you here.

So, yeah. I really don't think I'm much more likely to draw a nightkill then most people when I'm pro-town. I get hit with the "Yos is still alive, so he must be scum!" argument ALL the bloody TIME, but it really is not at all true; I make all the way to endgame pretty often as town, in fact.

Yeh, i can see how that would be a pain. One question-if you get attacked under this argument "all the time" how come you often manage to survive to endgame? Clearly this cant be as big an issue as you suggest.

maybe you're right. But given the player list, and the mechanic of the game, i can see that most mafia combinations here would have killed you already. Especially as you aren't really coming across as scummy. You aren't what id consider 'lynchable' based on your actual play. Likewise, you havent even been wagonning like crazy, which would be a possible incentive for mafia to keep you alive.

Well, you know, if that is all true, mafia often avoid "the most obvious target" because that person is often doc protected. Docs are pretty common in warewolf games, too. (Well, they're usually called herbalists or healers here, but same thing.)

Hmm, valid point.

I mean, I didn't even vote for MYSELF,

I really didn't even especally want to be mayor this game

, it just kind of happened. If the scum had wanted to gently nudge the town into electing one of their own mayor on day 1, they could have. They didn't, probably because they don't want to be anywhere near as high profile as that.

It's ok, i can see why you wouldnt wanna be mayor. The longevity of such a post in early game is not looking great. Tbh, i think you're doing a pretty good job. But, let's face it, if you were town, you'd be happy to be mayor for one simple reason-it means that:

A. Town has control of the double vote.
B. You get to choose a successor in the event of your death, so you can use your intuition to keep the mayorship out of the hands of scum.

(nods) Right. And

I was never opposed to the idea of being mayor

, for that very reason, as I made clear day 1. Still; I decided not to really go for it this game, and was actually pushing pretty hard for Fonz (who looked pretty obv town to me) to get the mayorship instead.

What was the story with 24 Mafia? You said Fonz didnt want you to be mayor because of that. Also, i must hasten to highlight in

ORANGE

the contradiction here. Your story seems to have changed.

I think half-decent scum are far less likely to WANT to be mayor, because survival to endgame is virtually impossible, and it thrusts them into the limelight early on. More importantly, it means they have to choose a successor, and they have to either concede the mayorship to a townie, or implicate another scumbuddy, starting the cycle again.

BM

Heh. My usual habit is to actually go after stuff like mayorships hard no matter what my alignment. I just kind of figured that after what I did in 24 mafia, doing so this game would make people freak out (see Fonz's reaction to even the idea I might become mayor day 1 of this game for an example of this, heh), so I was planning on just trying to make sure someone else who looked pro-town to me got it. I was actually kind of bemused to see that I ended up with it anyway, lol.

I forgot what bemused meant... :'(

Anyway, i do hope that given you fit my conclusions pretty well, you can see why i'm feeling fairly ok with my vote on you atm.
I dont think town-Yos would be so scared of the limelight.

Also, i might live to regret this, but,

Mod

:

ALL the bloody TIME

BM