Still not caught up but I think this is a decent place to put my vote for now.Kaiveran wrote:Don't have time to post today. Tomorrow for sure. Just so people doesn't worry about inactivity and such.
and an
Still not caught up but I think this is a decent place to put my vote for now.Kaiveran wrote:Don't have time to post today. Tomorrow for sure. Just so people doesn't worry about inactivity and such.
I am, it was.Jahudo wrote:Are you still talking about a player that reacts to the outcome of a lynch or night (ie: cheering at a dead scum or feeling remorse over a dead town)? Was Random Mafia 3 a night start, because otherwise how would someone commit that tell?Gorrad wrote:Absolutely! UROE in Random Mafia 3, I led an attack on him, lynching D1 based on this tell. It also caught my scumpartner, Seraphim in Bleach Mafia when I brought it up there (though I brought it up on a townie, to be fair).
The basic premise behind it is that it gains nothing for town by being said, and has a chance of outting power roles.
Therefore, we are most likely to find scum among those who worked to keep the dingoPepper debate from falling in intensity, pushing it towards the conclusion Pepper promised he would provide.Dr Pepper wrote: Here's something for you dingo, my vote is staying on you until you are either lynched, or night killed. Criticize that jackass.
I feel this is a rather off-hand response. Yos is an excellent player, and i dont expect him to commit glaring scumtells when he is mafia. Maybe this comes under "too townie to be town"? *shrug*Jahudo wrote:I don't think Yos is acting scummy so I see no point in lynching him. People have different ideas about who to kill when they are scum.
The "congratulating the town" one, really. I ask because, in this game yesterday, Zwet I think it was brought up that referring to yourself in the third person is a scumtell, and voted Dr Pepper for it. So far that's 0 out of 1 for scumtell effectiveness. I can see how it might be a scummy move if it's in conjunction with scummy behaviour, but on it's own, I don't think so. It seems like it's just too easy to go "this is a textbook scumtell", rather than build an argument. I don't think we should lynch solely on scumtells, because in the event of a misslynch it doesn't give us any more information about the players who voted, as they were doing it by the textbook- no more, no less.What particular scumtells are you talking about? Do YOU think they are good indicators of scum behavior?
What do you mean, "Dr. Pepper referred to himself in the third person"?
No, I just feel that Yos is townish based on his activity day 2. I think he was one of the few people to critically analyze what was going on between dingo and pepper, where scum wouldn't have really cared which one died (we know that now).Battle Mage wrote:I feel this is a rather off-hand response. Yos is an excellent player, and i dont expect him to commit glaring scumtells when he is mafia. Maybe this comes under "too townie to be town"? *shrug*
Well, if a scum mayor is killed I would assume someone on his wagon is much more likely to be the next mayor, as opposed to someone not on his wagon.Battle Mage wrote:Also, another thing im thinking is, bussing is unlikely to be prevalent in this game. If Yos was scum, what would his team mates do? I dont see them all hopping on the wagon, given that their team would then either lose the mayorship, or have another player implicated.
No, i still cant see a solo scumgroup bussing. And i dont understand your first point about the scum mayor-please explain?Jahudo wrote:No, I just feel that Yos is townish based on his activity day 2. I think he was one of the few people to critically analyze what was going on between dingo and pepper, where scum wouldn't have really cared which one died (we know that now).Battle Mage wrote:I feel this is a rather off-hand response. Yos is an excellent player, and i dont expect him to commit glaring scumtells when he is mafia. Maybe this comes under "too townie to be town"? *shrug*
Well, if a scum mayor is killed I would assume someone on his wagon is much more likely to be the next mayor, as opposed to someone not on his wagon.Battle Mage wrote:Also, another thing im thinking is, bussing is unlikely to be prevalent in this game. If Yos was scum, what would his team mates do? I dont see them all hopping on the wagon, given that their team would then either lose the mayorship, or have another player implicated.
I think it's too early to tell if we have one main scum faction or two, and how many third party scum we have. These variables might affect how much scum think they can get by with bussing. If they have a big enough group but with weak powers, they are probably more likely to bus.
What power?Mufasa wrote:I believe that my action won't do the maximium amount of help if I am to be killed today but we'll see.
Sure, let me check. (uses search function).Battle Mage wrote:Yosarian2 wrote:As to your first sentance; take a look at, say, my last 5 or 6 games as town. How many of them was I nightkilled by the scum on night 1 or night 2? I think the answer is 1; the only game that's at all recent where I was town and was nightkilled by the scum night 1 or night 2 was Mafia Lolwat, and that was just because I was attacking both members of the mafia that day.Battle Mage wrote: In short, my hypothesis is that experienced players would have killed Yos2 already, based on his reputation. Those who arent aware of his reputation, are bound to kill a townie with a double vote in order to give themselves the chance of getting it themselves.
Ok, it's time for me come clean. I'm afraid...i'm not the superfan you might have thought i was.
If you could link me to those games, i'll gladly check them out.
Well, you know, if that is all true, mafia often avoid "the most obvious target" because that person is often doc protected. Docs are pretty common in warewolf games, too. (Well, they're usually called herbalists or healers here, but same thing.)maybe you're right. But given the player list, and the mechanic of the game, i can see that most mafia combinations here would have killed you already. Especially as you aren't really coming across as scummy. You aren't what id consider 'lynchable' based on your actual play. Likewise, you havent even been wagonning like crazy, which would be a possible incentive for mafia to keep you alive.
(nods) Right. And I was never opposed to the idea of being mayor, for that very reason, as I made clear day 1. Still; I decided not to really go for it this game, and was actually pushing pretty hard for Fonz (who looked pretty obv town to me) to get the mayorship instead.It's ok, i can see why you wouldnt wanna be mayor. The longevity of such a post in early game is not looking great. Tbh, i think you're doing a pretty good job. But, let's face it, if you were town, you'd be happy to be mayor for one simple reason-it means that:Yos wrote: I mean, I didn't even vote for MYSELF, I really didn't even especally want to be mayor this game, it just kind of happened. If the scum had wanted to gently nudge the town into electing one of their own mayor on day 1, they could have. They didn't, probably because they don't want to be anywhere near as high profile as that.
A. Town has control of the double vote.
B. You get to choose a successor in the event of your death, so you can use your intuition to keep the mayorship out of the hands of scum.
Heh. My usual habit is to actually go after stuff like mayorships hard no matter what my alignment. I just kind of figured that after what I did in 24 mafia, doing so this game would make people freak out (see Fonz's reaction to even the idea I might become mayor day 1 of this game for an example of this, heh), so I was planning on just trying to make sure someone else who looked pro-town to me got it. I was actually kind of bemused to see that I ended up with it anyway, lol.I think half-decent scum are far less likely to WANT to be mayor, because survival to endgame is virtually impossible, and it thrusts them into the limelight early on. More importantly, it means they have to choose a successor, and they have to either concede the mayorship to a townie, or implicate another scumbuddy, starting the cycle again.
BM
If Yos were to be lynched and flip scum, I think we would look for his scumbuddies among the people that didn't lynch him. We would also need to elect a new mayor before we lynched someone, so someone that did lynch him would get townie points.Battle Mage wrote:And i dont understand your first point about the scum mayor-please explain?
Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?zwetschenwasser wrote:WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.
I call BS. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.NabakovNabakov wrote:Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?zwetschenwasser wrote:WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.
Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.
Maybe you're right. Calling Zwet out at this point is premature; he has niether lurked nor shirked, but I think that this is definitely a potential problem.Gorrad wrote:I call BS. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.NabakovNabakov wrote:Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?zwetschenwasser wrote:WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.
Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.
Would this cost Gorrad his vote?Gorrad wrote:I callNabakovNabakov wrote:Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?zwetschenwasser wrote:WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.
Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.BS. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.
Ah i see what you mean now. You've misread the rules though, methinks. We dont elect the new mayor- the old mayor chooses the new mayor. So in this scenario, Dead-Yos-Scum would have to choose a successor.Jahudo wrote:What would happen if everybody swore today?
If Yos were to be lynched and flip scum, I think we would look for his scumbuddies among the people that didn't lynch him. We would also need to elect a new mayor before we lynched someone, so someone that did lynch him would get townie points.Battle Mage wrote:And i dont understand your first point about the scum mayor-please explain?
I agree with Gorrad. I dont think Zwet lost his vote deliberately, nor do i think scum would bother doing so, in order to cast themselves out of the limelight. A guy with no vote, will hopefully be just as conspicuous as a guy with 2. Unless we reach a stage where the majority lose their votes. LolNabakovNabakov wrote:Maybe you're right. Calling Zwet out at this point is premature; he has niether lurked nor shirked, but I think that this is definitely a potential problem.Gorrad wrote:I call BS. You're really stretching it here, NabNab.NabakovNabakov wrote:Is BM really the scummiest person in this situation? I would think that given all the talk D1 of two votes possibly placing greater scrutiny on scum, wouldn't it follow that a player with no vote will experience less scrutiny?zwetschenwasser wrote:WAAAAA I lost my vote... You are scum, BM.
Therefore, any player who deprives themselves of their own vote, regardless of whether or not it looks like an accident, is looking pretty scummy to me. It just seems like an excuse to lurk and shirk (hey, that's kind of catchy) responsibility for a day.
In other words, the last thing I want to hear today is "I can't [X] because I lost my vote" (when X =/= hammer).
Interesting. 728 highlights my point quite nicely i feel. True, you were not killed in the game, but the game was FULL of veterans. It's no great insult not to be killed when almost the entire playerlist are IC's, and many pretty much household names.Yosarian2 wrote:Sure, let me check. (uses search function).Battle Mage wrote:Yosarian2 wrote:As to your first sentance; take a look at, say, my last 5 or 6 games as town. How many of them was I nightkilled by the scum on night 1 or night 2? I think the answer is 1; the only game that's at all recent where I was town and was nightkilled by the scum night 1 or night 2 was Mafia Lolwat, and that was just because I was attacking both members of the mafia that day.Battle Mage wrote: In short, my hypothesis is that experienced players would have killed Yos2 already, based on his reputation. Those who arent aware of his reputation, are bound to kill a townie with a double vote in order to give themselves the chance of getting it themselves.
Ok, it's time for me come clean. I'm afraid...i'm not the superfan you might have thought i was.
If you could link me to those games, i'll gladly check them out.
As far as I remember, this, mafiaLolwat is the only recent game where I, as town, was scumkilled early on.
viewtopic.php?t=10205&highlight=
In that game, the reason i was killed by the scum night 2 was because on day 2 I managed to call and attack out both members of the scum team at the same time (although I mistakenly thought one was the cult leader, which didn't help since I was trying to lynch him anyway. )
The two games I was in as town before that were mini 732 viewtopic.php?t=10268&start=0 and mini 728 viewtopic.php?t=10198&start=0. In both of those games, I was pro-town, and still survived the entire game, winning while still alive in endgame both times. (Granted, in mini 732, half the reason I survived was badly absuing the smalltown game mechanics. )
will look at this in a sec, thanks.Yos wrote: Before that, in mini 720, I was lynched, not nightkilled. viewtopic.php?t=10086&highlight=yosarian2
ACTUALLY, as the guy who killed you, i'm afraid i'll have to correct you here. The reason we killed you in that game was (admittedly my buddy's choice) because you are an infamously good player, and KoC was terrified of you as a scumhunter. Which, to be quite frank, is one of the main reasons behind my stance on you here.Yos wrote: As far as I remember, to go back to the last time before lolwat when I was killed by scum early on, you have to go all the way back to 2008 an US Election mafia; and the only reason I was killed in THAT game was because I delibratly hinted at a pro-town power role in order to draw a scum kill, becuase I had the most useless pro-town role ever and so wanted the scum to kill me rather then someone useful. (I couldn't even vote for a lynch, I could only vote no-lynch. )
Yeh, i can see how that would be a pain. One question-if you get attacked under this argument "all the time" how come you often manage to survive to endgame? Clearly this cant be as big an issue as you suggest.Yosarian2 wrote: So, yeah. I really don't think I'm much more likely to draw a nightkill then most people when I'm pro-town. I get hit with the "Yos is still alive, so he must be scum!" argument ALL the bloody TIME, but it really is not at all true; I make all the way to endgame pretty often as town, in fact.
Hmm, valid point.Yosarian wrote:Well, you know, if that is all true, mafia often avoid "the most obvious target" because that person is often doc protected. Docs are pretty common in warewolf games, too. (Well, they're usually called herbalists or healers here, but same thing.)maybe you're right. But given the player list, and the mechanic of the game, i can see that most mafia combinations here would have killed you already. Especially as you aren't really coming across as scummy. You aren't what id consider 'lynchable' based on your actual play. Likewise, you havent even been wagonning like crazy, which would be a possible incentive for mafia to keep you alive.
What was the story with 24 Mafia? You said Fonz didnt want you to be mayor because of that. Also, i must hasten to highlight inYos wrote:(nods) Right. AndIt's ok, i can see why you wouldnt wanna be mayor. The longevity of such a post in early game is not looking great. Tbh, i think you're doing a pretty good job. But, let's face it, if you were town, you'd be happy to be mayor for one simple reason-it means that:Yos wrote: I mean, I didn't even vote for MYSELF,I really didn't even especally want to be mayor this game, it just kind of happened. If the scum had wanted to gently nudge the town into electing one of their own mayor on day 1, they could have. They didn't, probably because they don't want to be anywhere near as high profile as that.
A. Town has control of the double vote.
B. You get to choose a successor in the event of your death, so you can use your intuition to keep the mayorship out of the hands of scum.I was never opposed to the idea of being mayor, for that very reason, as I made clear day 1. Still; I decided not to really go for it this game, and was actually pushing pretty hard for Fonz (who looked pretty obv town to me) to get the mayorship instead.
I forgot what bemused meant... :'(Yos wrote:Heh. My usual habit is to actually go after stuff like mayorships hard no matter what my alignment. I just kind of figured that after what I did in 24 mafia, doing so this game would make people freak out (see Fonz's reaction to even the idea I might become mayor day 1 of this game for an example of this, heh), so I was planning on just trying to make sure someone else who looked pro-town to me got it. I was actually kind of bemused to see that I ended up with it anyway, lol.I think half-decent scum are far less likely to WANT to be mayor, because survival to endgame is virtually impossible, and it thrusts them into the limelight early on. More importantly, it means they have to choose a successor, and they have to either concede the mayorship to a townie, or implicate another scumbuddy, starting the cycle again.
BM
BMYosarian2 wrote: ALL the bloody TIME