Mini 808 - Rabbit Doubt Mafia: Over!

[Kreriov]

Its Monday. I am seriously hung over. I am hoping this is the right thread.

/confirm

[Kreriov]

Vote: Looker

She said she wanted to kill Super Hot Chick, codename Zazie.

[Kreriov]

What I am curious about is why PhilyEc opened door 7. PhillyEc is now the person who controls access to the storage room with all the weapons!

Note where the door opening begins.

I am playing the game. I'm trying to lynch scum.

Everyone take the door that corresponds with your number on the player list.

[Kmd4390] opens door number [1]

And let's see what happens:

[Kmd] moves to [Room 1.]

At night, we should all be in our own rooms. I'll give the rest of my ideas on this on Day 2.

The very next person to open a door is PhilyEc. Note that he agrees to follow KMDs lead.

Looks like you're going to be sleeping on toilet-floor-slime KMD. I'll follow your lead though, this is interesting.

[PhilyEc] opens door number [7]

TIGER KNEE! *launches himself into the room Sagat style*

[PhilyEc] moves to [Room 7.]

So why open door 7? If Phily were following KMDs lead he should have opened door 10, but did not do so. Now he controls access to weapons? Um, not good.

Unvote
Vote: PhilyEc

I am number 8 on the list and that door has already been taken, so lets see the room PhilyEc should have opened.

[Kreriov] opens door [10]

[Kreriov]

@PhilyEc - stop mischaracterizing. In no way did I imply I voted for you merely because you opened the storage room. I voted for you because after saying you would follow KMDs lead (open the door corresponding to your number) you instead just happen to chose a door that just happens to enter the room with weapons in it. THAT is what I find suspicious. You joined Tenchi in jumping all over Battousai for merely entering the room. Should we not also suspect the guy who makes a lame excuse for picking that room to open in the first place?

[Kreriov]

@PhilyEc - Well, I find your lack of attention to detail unfortunate. Based on the time and content of the posts (you clearly realize KMD posted some plan and opened a door), you were clearly not cross-posting. It is a simple matter to read KMDs post, note he suggests we open the doors corresponding to our player number, and then see he does, indeed, open door 1 (his player number). So basically we all now have to decide if you did indeed acknowledge that you would follow this plan then either forget that plan in the course of writing 2 sentences or that you really did not understand the plan in the first lace. I am actually a bit inclined to believe the second part given your latest reaction, but would like hear some of the others thoughts first.

[Kreriov]

@PhilyEc - Stop mischaracterizing! Since when did I say you couldn't have known what was behind the door? I still have the dilemma that you clearly knew of KMDs proposed plan, said you would follow it, then did not follow it. The reward of not following the plan was control of access to the weapons room. Either you did not follow it on purpose or you made a mistake. At best I said am leaning towards believing you made a mistake. Now I have to try and figure out why you are continually trying to twist words and mischaracterize what I have said. Basically, you are either lying or the victim of an unfortunate set of circumstances resulting from your mistake. I said I would like others to share their thoughts on the matter. Give them and me a chance to do so!

[Kreriov]

@PhilyEc - you would have been better served by not posting

From 121

I didnt know his plan. I've explained that. Your posts are how I found out about it.

From post 50

Looks like you're going to be sleeping on toilet-floor-slime KMD. I'll follow your lead though, this is interesting.

Care to revise your statement? Oh right, you say you skimmed KMDs post but didn't read it and yet you know all about the room KMD entered and were following his lead.

Here are your mischaracterizations:
From post 101

Wait so, you'd have voted for whoever got the storage room?

I never said or even implied I would vote for whomever opened the storage room.
From post 119

=_= so why does K still think I'm scum when I couldnt have known what was behind the door. Logic failure =_=

Where did I say or agree that you couldn't have known what was behind the door? I have no idea if you did or did not know what was there. THAT is the problem.

Now, are you going to actually allow others to read and discuss this or keep digging your hole?

[Kreriov]

@PhilyEc - /sigh What part of 'you would be better of by not posting' was not clear?

We are supposed to take your word it was a random room based on your lucky number? I said I am inclined to believe you, but you just will not shut up and let me or anyone else decide. I have made no assumptions, that is part of the problem. I DO NOT ASSUME you are telling the truth or that you are lying. I DO NOT ASSUME that you knew or did not know what was in that room. Hell, I do not even assume you knew KMDs plan! YOUR statements indicate you read KMDs post. Your spin on it is definitely to your favor if beleived, but that is all it is, your spin! You still clearly read KMDs post. YOU say you missed the part about opening rooms by player number. How convenient for you! YOU explained, you spun, you did everything under the sun except actually take the time to go back and see what I was talking about. The first thing you do when I question why you opened door 7 when you should have opened 10 is attack me, mischaracterizing my post. Indeed, it takes 3 or 4 more posts of you tap dancing around before you finally say 'Hey, I understand now. I screwed up. I missed the part about open specific doors.' Great, wonderful, but why the hell did you not go back and re-read right then? And you keep on arguing that its poor logic! It is NOT poor logic. It is a statement of fact. You did indeed do these things. Now the rest of us have to decide if we think WHY you did these things is nefarious or a mistake. Let us do it!

[Kreriov]

Ah, thank you for reminding me lecerint.

[Kreriov] closes door [10]

[Kreriov]

@KMD - Oh, I like your rebut of his logic that he could have let MafiaMann (Player 7) open the room. I did not think of that scenario.

@PhilyEc - Of course you should have answered. You should have answer immediately, truthfully, and without the mischaracterizations. You did not. Once you finally did, your answer (that you made a mistake) is out there for all to see and discuss. Unless there is more to add, there is no need to say any more. Let that discussion happen. It will anyway. Are you suddenly going to change your story for some reason? Are you suddenly going to say you really did know where the weapons were but since your the vig you needed to get in there? (Those are rhetorical and sound a little familiar, so do not feel like you need to answer.) I promise I will remove my vote if a wagon builds and I am not convinced that you are scum. I am not convinced right now, just suspicious and thinking that this discussion is useful.

[Kreriov]

@Tenchi - Yes, it is odd but it is part of the manga. It is pretty much expected that at least one of us does not have a bar code. I think it is a null tell, actually, because even though in the manga the guy missing a key was town aligned, that does not make it so here.

I do not like Battousai moving into the room and then soft claiming maybe, that is for sure.

And on that, I am out of here. I doubt I will have a chance to check in again until Wed morning, but then I have probably reached the post tolerance level with most of you anyway

[Kreriov]

@PaperPenguin - Good theory, though if you read the exchange, I think it pretty obvious I was getting tired of PhilyEc constantly posting when he did not need to. Iecring summed it up better then me in this post to PhilyEc here.

I think his point was that he had already agreed that you had probably just made a mistake. Since this was the best you could have done under the circumstances, it was in your best interest to drop the issue. I believe this applied regardless of your alignment, so I don't think your subsequent indignation is a tell. Please let me know if it is apparent that I have missed something crucial about your altercation.

Either way, it no longer matters. The opportunity to involve more people in the discussion is lost.

Unvote

I do like PaperPenguin's idea about the Library.

[Kreriov] opens room [10]
[Kreriov] moves to room [3]

[Kreriov]

I do not think we can or should assume anything other than that the scum will be able to perform a night kill at will. That 'with the possible exception of night actions' does not imply that a night action WILL work, only that in conducting a night action, someone MAY move from whatever room they were in to the place they need to be to conduct their action. I see no guarantee that the action will or will not work. For example, what if the cop really does require access to the Library? All that rule says is that if he is in the corridor when night begins, he moves to the Library to do his night actions. It does not say he can go through a locked door.

The whole point is we do not know and should not assume to much.

[Kreriov]

@PhilyEc - Read the thread. Based on the manga, the cop needs to be in the library to conduct his investigation. PaperPenguin suggested that IF this were true, the cop might be hesitant to go into the Library alone as this would be a tell. In order to possibly help cover the cop, he suggested that multiple people go into the library. Yeah, its all speculation, but what the hell. I don't see how it can hurt.

[Kreriov]

@Tenchi - Another good idea, though I feel like I am one of only a few paying attention! I have no problem being a guinea pig either, but will wait for the ghost of Super Hot Chick, Codename ZazieR, to update us before I move to another room.

[Kreriov]

@ZazieR - Hey, no fair editing posts while I am posting!

[Kreriov]

[Kreriov] moves to room [9]

Time for a nap.

[Kreriov]

@MafiaMann - Batt really does have a good point, actually. It really does seem like Tenchi was looking for an excuse to vote Batt. I couple that with him then jumping wagons to vote PhilyEc then back to Batt, and it really seems like Tenchi is happy to just be voting someone, anyone.

Vote: Tenchi

[Kreriov]

@Looker - I have no idea how night moves work. Others, not I, have speculated that closed doors do not hinder scum, which seems to be the case from the limited manga I have seen. As for the idea of moving into rooms to cover a power role who many need to move into a room to function, that was PaperPenguin's idea and one I consider a good one.

Finally, as to Tenchi jumping wagons, yes, I consider it baseless. It really seems to me he jumped onto PhilyEc's wagon as soon as he could but then when it seemed like I was going to accept PhilyEc's explanation that it was a mistake choosing room 7 instead of room 10, he basically came up with a lame excuse to jump back to Batt. I am not saying the case against Batt is bad, it just seems more like opportunism to me on Tenchi's part.

[Kreriov]

I like Ztife's suggestion that we group up in 3s. Moving into rooms to try and trigger things seems fine, though I am not clear if that is supposed to include the storage room? Finally, if this also includes the dark room, I would suggest that only one person enter just in case it gives more posting restrictions. (And damn you ZazieR for doing it! At least wait until Zwet is in one of your games before using it! )

So, I will be the guinea pig and do the following:

Kreriov moves to room 1
Kreriov moves to room 12
Kreriov moves to room 8
Kreriov moves to room 6

Finally, to answer a question of me from way back.

I feel that Tenchi's jumping to PhilyEc's wagon and then back to Batt's wagon were both scketchy. The initial case he made against Batt was fine. I think that case has been answer/covered sufficiently and do not see a reason to change my vote at this time.

[Kreriov]

I will have to let you know if i have a PR in the morning. As of now, It does not look like ZazieR has even read the thread since I moved into room 6.

[Kreriov]

Well, I should be in room 8 then ZazieR, even if all my other moves failed. Just in case though...

Kreriov moves to room 8

[Kreriov]

Well, as I said before, I have no problem being a guinea pig.

Kreriov moves to room 6

[Kreriov]

Hmm, no PR here. Looks like it was a one shot deal.

[Kreriov]

I guess one set of groupings is as good as another.

Kreriov moves to room 9

[Kreriov]

Well, it is wonderful that we are taking time to consider what to do during the night. Never hurts to plan ahead. However, we do have to actually get there at some point. Maybe we should talk about who we think is scum?

[Kreriov]

As already stated, Super Hot Chick, codename ZazieR, is not a usable object!

Even the mod cannot control my dreams, however.

[Kreriov]

You've practically said nothing at all. You've replied to a serious question by dancing around flavor. As irresponsible as this is, it is not indicative of scummyness, at least by my radar.

Well, he also brought up the vig business, even if he says he meant it hypothetically.

I think he actually replied to Tenchi theorizing that the scum might need to enter room 7 to get weapons for their night kill to which Batt replied that a Vig might need to as well. Didn't really seem like a soft claim to me, despite Tenchi claiming it was, but instead a specific example used to rebut something Tenchi said. In fact, almost everything Batt has said or done that is listed as suspicious by Tenchi and others (other then entering the room in the first place) are answers to accusations/questions by Tenchi. For example, the jumping rope thing was a sarcastic/funny reply to Tenchi asking why Batt entered the room. Batt saying he had no key was specifically to answer Tenchi's question as to why Batt did not open a room himself. I am not really comfortable making this a Batt or Tenchi vote. I simply feel that while Batt entering the storage room and being a bit flippant in replies is a bit scummy, it has been taken advantage of by Tenchi to try and get a wagon going.

One thing I do know, at least this is real discussion and not all the bullshit arguing over how to group people in rooms over the night. All of you talking about that crap and not actually trying to find scum are a seriously actively lurking.

[Kreriov]

Tenchi is away, unable to defend himself, and despite my suspicions, I am not really convinced he is scum. After reading everything, I am afraid I may be influenced by the fact that he has actually been very active and has actions to analyze.

Unvote

[Kreriov]

2) "despite your suspicions", you aren't "convinced he's scum"? What's that even supposed to mean.
3) He only looks scummy because he's active?!? Um, what???

What is unclear? I have detailed my suspicions of Tenchi but do not really find them convincing or conclusive. I feel that since Tenchi has been very active, I have been over analyzing his actions simply because there is nothing else to do and am afraid I am making to much of them. Rather than continue to be on a wagon about which I am unsure, especially when the target is away, I think it prudent to unvote.

[Kreriov]

Piling votes on someone who is not around is not something I like doing. I do not think that is a bad reason to unvote. I also will not vote for someone who I think might be scummy just to be voting. Tenchi has done some scummy things. Or maybe he has done some overly zealous townie things. I am not sure so removed my vote for now. That Kmd then somehow links me to myko and Tenchi is ludicrous - scummy at worst and a bad attempt to try and get a reaction at best.

@Iecerint - Not sure why you think I should immediately attack someone. I have suspicions and have voiced them, but just do not see anything strong enough to warrant a vote. Rushing to judgement is not good. I think the byplay between Kmd, Myko, PhilyEc and you could lead to something, but even then, that is only 5 (counting me) of the 12 people in the game. Batt seems to be getting involved a bit now as well. It is 4th of July weekend. I think it is a very good time for me to see what develops and look at things fresh on monday.

[Kreriov]

@PhilyEc - I, too, would like to see a summary of your case against Myko. Yes, you have been pursuing it for pages now, but it essentially seems to boil down to you don't like him voting twice in one post and that you believe his vote on you was OMAGUS.

[Kreriov]

Things are a bit slow in the game right now it seems, so I am going to put a few of my thoughts down to help me remember and maybe generate some discussion.

I have have no real strong opinion about anyone. There are 4 people whom I think have made a few scummy actions.

PhilyEc - opening and entering the storage room. I think it was pure dumb luck and presupposes knowledge of the rooms content so pretty much a null tell.

Tenchi - hoping wagons with weak or no reasons. Seemed anxious to get things going and willing to push things along.

Batt - entering storage room for no real reason other than bored. Doing something to avoid boredom is ok, but should consider consequences of actions better

Kmd - making wild, unsubstantiated accusations and wildly speculating about possible connections. Might be trying to stir things up and not to be taken seriously unless and until he actually tries to substantiate wild claims.

[Kreriov]

You mean other than the fact you have not supported them in the least?

[Kreriov]

@Kmd - See, was that so hard to do? After seeing that, I would agree with Icerint in that 'wild and unsupported' might be over stating things, at least against Myko and Tenchi. I might disagree with your case, but you do have reasons for suspecting them. Against me, however, you are both wrong and stretching. I did not tunnel on PhilyEc. He agreed to do something and then did not follow through. If you think me trying to figure out if it was a real mistake or a ruse to cover up a deliberate action was unwarranted, you are a fool. PhilyEc's defensiveness was just another reason to keep the heat on him until I was convinced. As for not liking me unvoting Tenchi, well, tough cookies. Its bullshit and you should know better. You want him lynched so of course you think anyone unvoting him is wrong. My reasons are and were sound. Even if I think him the most scummy player in the game, keeping a big wagon going on him while he is V/LA is just stupid. Come 20 July, I might be of a different opinion. What I do know, however, is I will not risk my vote lynching someone without being reasonably certain they are scum and I am just not at that point with Tenchi yet. So yeah, your suspicion of me is wild and unsupported.

[Kreriov]

@Mykonian - Ok.

My suspects are a as follows with a brief reason why.

Tenchi - Jumping wagons for little or no reason.
PhilyEc - Being way to defensive about mistakes
Mykonian - This whole weird KMD back and forth thing
Kmd - Pushing a bad case
Ztife - Lurking

[Kreriov]

@Myko - Yup, why do you think I removed my vote? Anyway, you asked. None of those scum suspicions are very strong. One reason I am not voting for anyone Will be interesting to see what others have to say.

[Kreriov]

@Icerint & Phily - The bad case Kmd is pushing is against me. He consistently lists Tenchi, Myko, and I as scum. His cases against either of those two I feel is wrong, but I do follow his logic. It is the one against me that is bad. (Basically he somehow thinks I am partnered with them. I am still not really sure exactly why. At best he is pissed because I was the first to get off the Tenchi wagon and he is reacting with emotion, not logic. At worst, he is scum just stirring up crap.)

At this point I would not be surprised if Myko or Kmd are scum. Both? Well, I don't really see it yet. They certainly have the expertise to set something like this up and carry it through. Without evidence or reason to beleive that, however, its just something to keep in mind.

[Kreriov]

Not at all. You are free to vote who you want, when you want. Just have good reasons for it. You say you unvoted Tenchi due to V/LA. I don't understand why that makes sense. If it did, optimal play for scum would be to go V/LA at every deadline.

Ah, KMD misrepresenting. Given his exacting scrutiny of everyone, you would think he wouldn't make such a mistake. He suddenly forgets that I was well aware we were not up against a deadline when I removed my vote from Tenchi.

Here is part of my post from 8 Jul.

My reasons are and were sound. Even if I think him the most scummy player in the game, keeping a big wagon going on him while he is V/LA is just stupid. Come 20 July, I might be of a different opinion.

Why are you trying to misrepresent me KMD?

(For those of you unaware of it, we have a deadline on 20 Jul)

[Kreriov]

Not at all. You are free to vote who you want, when you want. Just have good reasons for it. You say you unvoted Tenchi due to V/LA. I don't understand why that makes sense. If it did, optimal play for scum would be to go V/LA at every deadline.

Ah, KMD misrepresenting. Given his exacting scrutiny of everyone, you would think he wouldn't make such a mistake. He suddenly forgets that I was well aware we were not up against a deadline when I removed my vote from Tenchi.

Here is part of my post from 8 Jul.

My reasons are and were sound. Even if I think him the most scummy player in the game, keeping a big wagon going on him while he is V/LA is just stupid. Come 20 July, I might be of a different opinion.

Why are you trying to misrepresent me KMD?

(For those of you unaware of it, we have a deadline on 20 Jul)

I actually just checked this morning for when deadline is.

So, basically, you just make accusations as you see fit and say whatever you think is the most prejudicial to your target without regards to, you know, actual facts? Nice.

Vote: Kmd4390

[Kreriov]

@ Kmd - Well, lets look at it. You have basically harped on the fact that I took my vote off Tenchi. Even though I had multiple reasons, you keep harping on only one, that he was V/LA and I did not like getting to big a wagon going. After this goes back and forth for a couple days and pages, you finally say this:

If it did, optimal play for scum would be to go V/LA at every deadline.

In reply to which I point out that you are full of crap because even before you said this I had already indicated that I am perfectly well aware of how deadlines work and would have taken that into account had there been a deadline when I unvoted. In response to this you say you just went and looked up the deadline and had not done so.

It only seems logical, then, that you failed to read my reply in which I specifically mention the deadline. In other words, you don't give a damn about anything I have to say and are saying whatever you can that is prejudicial to your target. That is the definition of scum.

[Kreriov]

@Mykonian - Um, gee, could it be that Kmd popped to the top of my list when he started lying and misrepresenting posts? He even ADMITS he is to lazy to get the facts straight and just cares about the prejudicial surface value of the attacks he is using. He has been constantly using a strawman attack as well. I think my vote is pretty solid and reasonable.

[Kreriov]

@Iecerint - Kmd keeps saying that the scum team is Tenchi, Myko, and myself. I am not scum, therefor that is a lie.

[Kreriov]

@Iecerint - Ah, fair enough. In that case Kmd has definitely misrepresented and only possibly lied.

[Kreriov]

@Kmd - Your right, but it will not make them any less true either. Thank you for agreeing with me that you have indeed, either intentionally or through shere laziness, misrepresented posts I have made.

[Kreriov]

@KMd - I am not. A simple look at my posts in ISO will show where I caught you misrepresenting me. Your excuse was you were lazy. Whatever, laziness or intenional, misrepresenting is scummy behavior.

[Kreriov]

@Kmd - Of course you do not admit to misrepresenting. You have just been shown to have done so.

[Kreriov]

@Mykonian - Well, what more do you want? Kmd is used/is using a strawman attack on me. One which I specifically discredited. I showed, twice, exactly how he was misrepresenting things I have said and his reply was that he was lazy? Seriously? My vote is where I think it will do the most good.

[Kreriov]

Kmd should have been lynched D2 by the town. It would have been a mislynch, but after his antics D1, that was the obvious lynch. Would that have led to the town finding the scum? We will never know. But allowing someone who was so demonstrably and vocally wrong was a mistake.